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Subject: The Timeless One - Not the Last Precursor?

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.


In an effort to search for a quote that anton so desperately needed me to surface, I was sidetracked, like usual. I came across very interesting information regarding the Timeless One. TO is not who it says it is, as Greg Bear hinted at. The Timeless One is not the last Precursor. It was created by the Precursors, possibly one gone wrong. Have a look at these quotes from Halo: Cryptum.

"Or was it something manufactured by the Precursors- possibly a strange, distorted sibling of both Forerunners and (the Didact was reluctant to consider this) humans? Precursor sibling, or ancestor to ... what?"-pg. 276

"The cell contained, in temporal suspension, a genuine monster: a large creature with an overall anatomy like a grossly misshapen human..."-pg. 277

"They are out there, waiting...
Thousands of years wasted!
The solution was lost, Father...Lost!
If what the Old Ones made is loose..."
-pg. 138


If you look at the quotes from the passage it implies the Timeless One is actually part machine. Kind of like the Engineers that the Forerunners crafted. This also makes a lot of sense regarding how the Timeless One survived the firing of Halo, the Gravemind's ability to successfully control Installation 05's teleportation grid, and Gravemind's ability to hack into Cortana in 'Human Weakness', considering Gravemind is the Timeless One. And the Timeless One, well... It could very well be...


[Edited on 10.01.2011 6:55 AM PDT]

  • 09.30.2011 5:31 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Some interesting quotes, one that makes me re-think the TO a bit. That said, I still have a nagging suspicion he isn't lying. Doesn't seem like he has much to gain by lying.

  • 09.30.2011 5:41 PM PDT

Posted by: Commander GX
Bungie.Match.com: Our Johnson knows what the ladies like.

*gets copy of Cryptum to confirm*

EDIT: Huh. Never noticed the first quote before. This puts many of our theories into question...

[Edited on 09.30.2011 5:44 PM PDT]

  • 09.30.2011 5:42 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Also, is it out of the question he could be an augmented Precursor of sorts? His power and control of the Flood being either the end result or one of many abilities?

  • 09.30.2011 5:43 PM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Also, is it out of the question he could be an augmented Precursor of sorts? His power and control of the Flood being either the end result or one of many abilities?
This is what I believe.

  • 09.30.2011 5:54 PM PDT

yas334229812

Or he was a potentially dangerous Precurser remember he could have been the one that made the flood for which is why he was imprisoned. And maybe the forerunners were in the same position as the San Shyumm were. The precurser could have won the battle against a rapid infestation but the forerunners noticing this infection and noticing what the precurser were about to do if they lost maybe another type of halo decided to rebel against them. Thus defeating them on a two sided battle.
The TO could be a corrupt dark precurser. And he could have been imprisoned for his act and never let out for a reason even in the precursor darkest hour.
Although there i believe a good reason for the forerunners to rebel against the precurser and this could be to save their specied and children from what the precurser were about to do maybe the flood was threatening them. Still its speculation and we may never know.
Sorry if what i wrote is confusing. It may sound crazy and the grammer may not be right but there is a lot more about it. Right now its just a stream of consciousness and looks really ugly.

  • 09.30.2011 6:07 PM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.


Posted by: risay_117
Or he was a potentially dangerous Precurser remember he could have been the one that made the flood for which is why he was imprisoned. And maybe the forerunners were in the same position as the San Shyumm were. The precurser could have won the battle against a rapid infestation but the forerunners noticing this infection and noticing what the precurser were about to do if they lost maybe another type of halo decided to rebel against them. Thus defeating them on a two sided battle.
The TO could be a corrupt dark precurser. And he could have been imprisoned for his act and never let out for a reason even in the precursor darkest hour.
Although there i believe a good reason for the forerunners to rebel against the precurser and this could be to save their specied and children from what the precurser were about to do maybe the flood was threatening them. Still its speculation and we may never know.
Sorry if what i wrote is confusing. It may sound crazy and the grammer may not be right but there is a lot more about it. Right now its just a stream of consciousness and looks really ugly.
Umm... what?

  • 09.30.2011 6:41 PM PDT

yas334229812

Expected that reply.
I wrote without thinking and as fast as i could. I'll rephrase it tomorrow.

  • 09.30.2011 6:43 PM PDT

[url*=http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=167323][i mg*]http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp351/Vrai_2/toxicpurp leuserbar.png[/img*][/url*]

(Skims through cryptum)

I see your point there, but if that was the case, why is he "timeless"; why would the precursors create 3 races, and make 1 immortal (with knowledge that could only be attained if he was very closely involved with precursor activities). What point would this serve? Is he another creation of revenge against the forerunners? If so, why make the flood as well if they could make immortal soldiers?

[Edited on 09.30.2011 6:59 PM PDT]

  • 09.30.2011 6:59 PM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.


Posted by: IOU 720
(Skims through cryptum)

I see your point there, but if that was the case, why is he "timeless"; why would the precursors create 3 races, and make 1 immortal (with knowledge that could only be attained if he was very closely involved with precursor activities). What point would this serve? Is he another creation of revenge against the forerunners? If so, why make the flood as well if they could make immortal soldiers?
I realize I posted it as a race, but if you look at the other quotes from the passage it implies it could also be part machine. Kind of like the Engineers the Forerunners crafted. This also makes a lot of sense regarding Gravemind's ability to hack into Cortana in 'Human Weakness', considering Gravemind is the Timeless one. It seems I convinced myself, I'll update the OP.

[Edited on 09.30.2011 7:33 PM PDT]

  • 09.30.2011 7:30 PM PDT

[url*=http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=167323][i mg*]http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp351/Vrai_2/toxicpurp leuserbar.png[/img*][/url*]


Posted by: matman25402

Posted by: IOU 720
(Skims through cryptum)

I see your point there, but if that was the case, why is he "timeless"; why would the precursors create 3 races, and make 1 immortal (with knowledge that could only be attained if he was very closely involved with precursor activities). What point would this serve? Is he another creation of revenge against the forerunners? If so, why make the flood as well if they could make immortal soldiers?
I realize I posted it as a race, but if you look at the other quotes from the passage it implies it could also be part machine. Kind of like the Engineers the Forerunners crafted. This also makes a lot of sense regarding Gravemind's ability to hack into Cortana in 'Human Weakness', considering Gravemind is the Timeless one. It seems I convinced myself, I'll update the OP.

ok, but thats still begs the question of why they would build such a "machine" ( something we wont have enough information to take any action, save speculate about, until Primordium's release ). A very interesting concept though if it were to be at least partly true.

[Edited on 09.30.2011 7:42 PM PDT]

  • 09.30.2011 7:38 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: matman25402
In an effort to search for a quote that anton so desperately needed me to surface,

So testy.


Are Huragok immune to the Halo's neural pulse? I am not sure due to them being part biological, but if so then it might be that the reason that the TO survived the Halo event was due to him being a similar synthetic-biological hybrid.

  • 09.30.2011 8:12 PM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.


Posted by: anton1792
So testy.


Obviously.

Posted by: anton1792
Are Huragok immune to the Halo's neural pulse? I am not sure due to them being part biological, but if so then it might be that the reason that the TO survived the Halo event was due to him being a similar synthetic-biological hybrid.
I would assume so, which also would also add to the list of reasons making it clear TO is part organic and part mechanical.

  • 09.30.2011 8:39 PM PDT

Interesting quotes, though they're almost all speculation based on the character's interpretations for the point of throwing us off. I still believe he's a Precursor, but probably an evil one who likes to experiment.

*Part machine*

hmm....


[Edited on 09.30.2011 8:50 PM PDT]

  • 09.30.2011 8:48 PM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.


Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Interesting quotes, though they're almost all speculation based on the character's interpretations for the point of throwing us off. I still believe he's a Precursor, but probably an evil one who likes to experiment.

*Part machine*

hmm....
I was just thinking of posting that actually. I feel like this theory could possibly be the truth.

[Edited on 09.30.2011 9:08 PM PDT]

  • 09.30.2011 9:04 PM PDT


Posted by: matman25402

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Interesting quotes, though they're almost all speculation based on the character's interpretations for the point of throwing us off. I still believe he's a Precursor, but probably an evil one who likes to experiment.

*Part machine*

hmm....
I was just thinking of posting that actually.


It was the first thing I thought of actually.

I like to look at things from a plot and theme perspective to see what the best choice the authors could make to see if I can figure out the stories. In this case, we have a creature from a race of benevolent beings who hold all life and all things in the universe sacred, but said creature is the epitome of evil in a sea of good. Machine parts and robotic technology is life's antithesis, the exact opposite of what the Precursors reveared.

Having the TO be a fused Precursor with machine parts could represent that concept of pure evil out of pure good. Primordial is a mixture of the two, born out of goodness, yet choosing evil.

I think it makes sense, though he's still the last Precursor.

  • 09.30.2011 9:11 PM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: matman25402

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Interesting quotes, though they're almost all speculation based on the character's interpretations for the point of throwing us off. I still believe he's a Precursor, but probably an evil one who likes to experiment.

*Part machine*

hmm....
I was just thinking of posting that actually.


It was the first thing I thought of actually.

I like to look at things from a plot and theme perspective to see what the best choice the authors could make to see if I can figure out the stories. In this case, we have a creature from a race of benevolent beings who hold all life and all things in the universe sacred, but said creature is the epitome of evil in a sea of good. Machine parts and robotic technology is life's antithesis, the exact opposite of what the Precursors reveared.

Having the TO be a fused Precursor with machine parts could represent that concept of pure evil out of pure good. Primordial is a mixture of the two, born out of goodness, yet choosing evil.

I think it makes sense, though he's still the last Precursor.
It's so obvious. How am I the first one to piece this together?

  • 09.30.2011 9:44 PM PDT


Posted by: matman25402

Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: matman25402

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Interesting quotes, though they're almost all speculation based on the character's interpretations for the point of throwing us off. I still believe he's a Precursor, but probably an evil one who likes to experiment.

*Part machine*

hmm....
I was just thinking of posting that actually.


It was the first thing I thought of actually.

I like to look at things from a plot and theme perspective to see what the best choice the authors could make to see if I can figure out the stories. In this case, we have a creature from a race of benevolent beings who hold all life and all things in the universe sacred, but said creature is the epitome of evil in a sea of good. Machine parts and robotic technology is life's antithesis, the exact opposite of what the Precursors reveared.

Having the TO be a fused Precursor with machine parts could represent that concept of pure evil out of pure good. Primordial is a mixture of the two, born out of goodness, yet choosing evil.

I think it makes sense, though he's still the last Precursor.
It's so obvious. How am I the first one to piece this together?


We were so caught up in other quotes and details that we just hadn't noticed. Cryptum has more detail in it then most realize.

  • 09.30.2011 9:46 PM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.

Still the fact that the quote mentions the Old Ones made it.. I don't think was ever a full precursor. Maybe a clone of one who was then subject to machine modification? I don't think the precursors would find it morally justified to put one of their own through such a process.

  • 09.30.2011 10:11 PM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Very interesting matman.

I think a very, very important point to remember in all of this is that 343 is going to have to tie in that "next step" referenced in both Halsey's Journal and the Data Pads in Reach; that is direct human-A.I. interface (to essentially propel humanity into godhood) as well as the expansion of the A.I. mind (soon to be the human mind?) into slipspace. If the T.O. is some kind of mechanic hybrid it could perhaps shed some light on the direction the post GoO Universe will take.

Edit: Oh wow...If the T.Os mind is located in slipspace, that could explain how he is essentially "immune" to the Halo Effects...they can't even reach him.

[Edited on 10.01.2011 1:21 AM PDT]

  • 10.01.2011 1:19 AM PDT

Now I could be totally wrong here but in Cryptum didn't they one time refer to the TO as an intelligence?. Calling something an intelligence usually means it is an AI or robotic in nature.

  • 10.01.2011 1:21 AM PDT
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"The hero is the one who kindles a great light in the world, who sets up blazing torches in the dark streets of life for men to see by.
The saint is the man who walks through the dark paths of the world, himself a light."
-Felix Adler

I'm still not 100% convinced that Gravemind is the Timeless One.
What quote in particular implies that it is part machine?
Things can be made without being a machine (i.e. a spliced clone mixture).

  • 10.01.2011 1:53 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

Wow OP,i never noticed that last quote.

Great find man ,we should all reread Cryptum to find all these little things before Primordium comes.

[Edited on 10.01.2011 3:19 AM PDT]

  • 10.01.2011 3:19 AM PDT


Posted by: dibbs089
Very interesting matman.

I think a very, very important point to remember in all of this is that 343 is going to have to tie in that "next step" referenced in both Halsey's Journal and the Data Pads in Reach; that is direct human-A.I. interface (to essentially propel humanity into godhood) as well as the expansion of the A.I. mind (soon to be the human mind?) into slipspace. If the T.O. is some kind of mechanic hybrid it could perhaps shed some light on the direction the post GoO Universe will take.

Edit: Oh wow...If the T.Os mind is located in slipspace, that could explain how he is essentially "immune" to the Halo Effects...they can't even reach him.


There are so many possibilities!

Too many, all of them as reasonable as the next. Let's wait until Primordium, the book that'll either answer some question or mind -blam!- us more.

Or hell, even Glasslands since its all supposed to tie together. Oh, I also finally got the special OXM. Took a month, but I got it.

Glasslands seems to be introducing some new mysteries (strange flying cylinder thing with Forerunner symbols?) so maybe they tie with H4 and the Forerunner trilogy.

[Edited on 10.01.2011 6:13 AM PDT]

  • 10.01.2011 6:10 AM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.


Posted by: Emperor Gillard
I'm still not 100% convinced that Gravemind is the Timeless One.

When Mendicant Bias tested a Halo installation in the Charum Hakkor system, the Halo's energies destroyed every Precursor structure on the planet, freeing the prisoner. The Timeless One was then taken to Mendicant Bias' Halo (Delta Halo) for study; both the Halo and Mendicant Bias disappeared soon after, not to return for 43 years. This occurred the exact same time Mendicant Bias was first sent to converse with the Gravemind for 43 years. Later during the Forerunner-Flood war, The Timeless One used the Palace of Pain as a stronghold on Installation 05, Mendicant's ring.

Mendicant Bias conversed with the Gravemind for 43 years before forcing itself into Rampancy and defecting to the Flood; after doing so, Mendicant Bias claimed to serve a "new master". As the test at Charum Hakkor - and thus the release of the prisoner - occurred the same year, it is possible that this "new master" is one in the same as the Gravemind and The Timeless One.

Posted by: Emperor Gillard
What quote in particular implies that it is part machine?
Things can be made without being a machine (i.e. a spliced clone mixture).

As I posted earlier in the thread, the fact that the quote mentions the Old Ones made it and that the Precursors manufactured it.. I don't think was ever a full precursor. Maybe a clone of one who was then subject to machine modification? I don't think the precursors would find it morally justified to put one of their own through such a process. Also, for it to be able to survive the firing of Halos, to be able to interface with Cortana and control the teleportation grid on Delta Halo, it's pretty obvious it has mechanical parts, part artificial intelligence.

[Edited on 10.01.2011 6:35 AM PDT]

  • 10.01.2011 6:24 AM PDT

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