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Subject: Why do people consider characters who didn't die, better?

"Victory is reserved for those who are willing to pay it's price." (Sun Tzu)

"Ultimately, you must forget about technique. The further you progress, the fewer teachings there are. The Great Path is really NO PATH." (Ueshiba Morihei)

"For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill." (Sun Tzu)

"He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious. He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious." (Sun Tzu)

"Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win." (Sun Tzu)

Read the above quotes, and really think on them for a moment, before going onto read my post.

Those who die in battle, are the only ones who are ever truly victorious, their names are engraved in stone, and they are remembered, as they inspire. What disturbs me, is that people on this forum are so ignorant to the fact of what a warrior truly is, and what it really means to die in battle.

I think using the Spartan Code is an appropriate example for this subject.

The Spartan Code

The power and pride of Sparta was in its army above all else, for in its courage, discipline, and skill of the troops, Sparta found its security, and its' ideal. Every citizen was trained for war, and was liable to military service from his twentieth to his sixtieth year. Around its army, Sparta formed its moral code: to be good was to be strong and brave; to die in battle was the highest honor and happiness...



So you see, by dying in battle, one could consider Noble Six and NOBLE Team the ultimate representation of the symbolism the entirety of the SPARTAN program represents, making them, in my personal opinion, the best SPARTANS. Noble Six inspired Halsey enough for her to write a eulogy about him (I'm assuming in her Journal somewhere), but even that is beside the point. I'm not saying Master Chief is inferior to Noble Six, nowhere do I imply that, I am simply saying, Noble Six is NOT inferior to Master Chief in any way, shape, or form, and is in fact, once again in my opinion, a better representation for what a SPARTAN is truly meant to symbolize, the ultimate victory, the highest victory any SPARTAN can hope to achieve, to die exactly the way in which he was brought into this world, screaming... and bathed in blood, in a manner of speaking.

  • 10.08.2011 3:40 PM PDT

Do you know what kind of hat I'm wearing?

A party hat; you don't get one. An honor will this party be, a party in your honor, for your honor. Some of Tfear's personal guards are going to be there. You'll be introduced shortly.

Prepare to die.


"He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious. He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious." (Sun Tzu)

...camper

Also;
"The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his"(Patton)
So, living > dying

  • 10.08.2011 3:47 PM PDT


Posted by: H0FFman J

"He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious. He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious." (Sun Tzu)

...camper

Also;
"The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his"(Patton)
So, living > dying


Patton was an American war general. Sun Tzu was a Chinese Warlord who wrote the book The Art of War, Generals are usually the high ranking officers who sit behind desks at a headquarters and give the orders to the men who are really fighting. Sun Tzu was a warfare mastermind, Patton was a gung ho American who, like most Americans (I am one don't pull the race card on me) do not know what it is truly mean to be at zen with the art of war. Do not seriously tell me you don't know who Sun Tzu is, if you don't, you shouldn't be playing Halo.

The fact of the matter is, winning isn't everything. Captain Keyes, a character in the actual game series, said this in Fall of Reach TO Master Chief who seemed to not understand him at all, goes to show his lack of common sense. Here's another quote for you.

"Only the dead have seen the end of war," (Plato)

You need to broaden your horizons and look past the hollywood bs that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the fact of what it truly means to be a warrior.

There is a big difference between soldiers and warriors.

  • 10.08.2011 3:54 PM PDT

its not so much that they died as in who they were and how they died. you never knew any of the characters until the moment before they died. they were jerks then they said im sorry let me go kill myself. all except jorge. and emile maybe.

also your quotes and theory coinside with what is said in game.

Carter:"he died thinking hed just saved the planet if only we could all be so lucky."

that is inexact by the way.

  • 10.08.2011 3:56 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Everyone's death had meaning, you could argue against Kat's, but it seems to almost parallel the death of Kat in All Quiet on the Western Front, a death that could come at any time.

  • 10.08.2011 3:58 PM PDT


Posted by: Chaoscoolperson
its not so much that they died as in who they were and how they died. you never knew any of the characters until the moment before they died. they were jerks then they said im sorry let me go kill myself. all except jorge. and emile maybe.

also your quotes and theory coinside with what is said in game.

Carter:"he died thinking hed just saved the planet if only we could all be so lucky."

that is inexact by the way.


Exactly, but it doesn't matter. You're pointing out their faults, not their positives. Jorge is the only SPARTAN I can think of who has personally destroyed a SUPERCARRIER by HIMSELF. With the help of Noble Six of course.

Not to mention, they didn't have the assistance of the single most powerful and advanced piece of human technology, Cortana, and they still took it down.

Thats a plus not many people look at, so far Noble Six and Jorge are the only SPARTANS I can think of that actually DID bring their victories into space...

  • 10.08.2011 4:00 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Everyone's death had meaning, you could argue against Kat's, but it seems to almost parallel the death of Kat in All Quiet on the Western Front, a death that could come at any time.


Exactly!

But no, of course the blind arrogance of the fanboys is going to come in and contaminate my thread with stupidity, without even reading the original post, and say something akin to this, "Well, Master Chief is the BEST because he didn't DIE. Noble Team are the WORST SPARTANS!"

Pah... sometimes I don't know why I bother trying to educate the masses as to what it truly means to be a warrior.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The simple fact that Noble Six got an ending cutscene like that of him taking on all of these enemies, watching their bodies pile up as he just simply mangles them with damn near his bare hands, before getting stabbed, WHILE STILL FIGHTING, automatically makes him the biggest badass in the Halo universe, IMO.

[Edited on 10.08.2011 4:05 PM PDT]

  • 10.08.2011 4:03 PM PDT


Posted by: ThePredkiller2

Posted by: Chaoscoolperson
its not so much that they died as in who they were and how they died. you never knew any of the characters until the moment before they died. they were jerks then they said im sorry let me go kill myself. all except jorge. and emile maybe.

also your quotes and theory coinside with what is said in game.

Carter:"he died thinking hed just saved the planet if only we could all be so lucky."

that is inexact by the way.


Exactly, but it doesn't matter. You're pointing out their faults, not their positives. Jorge is the only SPARTAN I can think of who has personally destroyed a SUPERCARRIER by HIMSELF. With the help of Noble Six of course.

Not to mention, they didn't have the assistance of the single most powerful and advanced piece of human technology, Cortana, and they still took it down.

Thats a plus not many people look at, so far Noble Six and Jorge are the only SPARTANS I can think of that actually DID bring their victories into space...


No no i agree. i was just saying what other people think.

after playing the game again and again i realized what good characters they are. i just prefer better characterized ones such as the ones in ODST.

but i do agree with your quotes and ideas and main body paragraphs.

  • 10.08.2011 4:05 PM PDT

"dying makes me sad"


would be another response.

also i am terrified of death and therefor would never try to be a warrior.

[Edited on 10.08.2011 4:07 PM PDT]

  • 10.08.2011 4:06 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

And such people forget that nearly ALL of the Spartan-IIs die don Reach. Guess they are terrible soldiers.

/sarcasm

  • 10.08.2011 4:06 PM PDT

"I will show you how a true Prussian officer fights!"

"And i will show you where the iron crosses grow..."

- "Cross of Iron"


Posted by: ThePredkiller2

Posted by: H0FFman J

"He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious. He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious." (Sun Tzu)

...camper

Also;
"The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his"(Patton)
So, living > dying


Patton was an American war general. Sun Tzu was a Chinese Warlord who wrote the book The Art of War, Generals are usually the high ranking officers who sit behind desks at a headquarters and give the orders to the men who are really fighting. Sun Tzu was a warfare mastermind, Patton was a gung ho American who, like most Americans (I am one don't pull the race card on me) do not know what it is truly mean to be at zen with the art of war. Do not seriously tell me you don't know who Sun Tzu is, if you don't, you shouldn't be playing Halo.

The fact of the matter is, winning isn't everything. Captain Keyes, a character in the actual game series, said this in Fall of Reach TO Master Chief who seemed to not understand him at all, goes to show his lack of common sense. Here's another quote for you.

"Only the dead have seen the end of war," (Plato)

You need to broaden your horizons and look past the hollywood bs that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the fact of what it truly means to be a warrior.

There is a big difference between soldiers and warriors.


Patton was no desk job general sorry. He was right there with his troops most of the time. He kicked Rommel's butt in north Africa and paved the way through France. Eventually defeating the Germans at the battle of the bulge. Sun Tzu may have written the art of war but Patton applied it to fighting the most powerful nation in that time period and defeating them.

  • 10.08.2011 4:07 PM PDT


Posted by: Raptorx7

Posted by: ThePredkiller2

Posted by: H0FFman J

"He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious. He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious." (Sun Tzu)

...camper

Also;
"The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his"(Patton)
So, living > dying


Patton was an American war general. Sun Tzu was a Chinese Warlord who wrote the book The Art of War, Generals are usually the high ranking officers who sit behind desks at a headquarters and give the orders to the men who are really fighting. Sun Tzu was a warfare mastermind, Patton was a gung ho American who, like most Americans (I am one don't pull the race card on me) do not know what it is truly mean to be at zen with the art of war. Do not seriously tell me you don't know who Sun Tzu is, if you don't, you shouldn't be playing Halo.

The fact of the matter is, winning isn't everything. Captain Keyes, a character in the actual game series, said this in Fall of Reach TO Master Chief who seemed to not understand him at all, goes to show his lack of common sense. Here's another quote for you.

"Only the dead have seen the end of war," (Plato)

You need to broaden your horizons and look past the hollywood bs that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the fact of what it truly means to be a warrior.

There is a big difference between soldiers and warriors.


Patton was no desk job general sorry. He was right there with his troops most of the time. He kicked Rommel's butt in north Africa and paved the way through France. Eventually defeating the Germans at the battle of the bulge. Sun Tzu may have written the art of war but Patton applied it to fighting the most powerful nation in that time period and defeating them.


The N@Z1s lost WWII when Hitler declared war on the Soviet Union. It was the SOVIETS who stormed Berlin and defeated the N@Z1s. America just dropped some nukes.

Anyway, to be back on topic, what a lot of people don't seem to understand is that the SPARTANS were bungie's inspiration of the Spartan warriors of ancient Sparta. In my personal opinion, Noble Six and his team were Bungie's attempt to protray the ultimate SPARTAN warrior, and no less, the ultimate soldiers, to claim the ultimate victory by dying for their country.

Besides, making the other bastard die for his completely contradicts who came first and laid down the underlying structural foundation at the beginning of it all for what it means to be a warrior, Sun Tzu.

[Edited on 10.08.2011 4:13 PM PDT]

  • 10.08.2011 4:12 PM PDT

It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank god that such men lived. ----------- No Bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. (both by George S. Patton jr.)

Relevant to the quotes at the beginning
It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived. George S Patton

  • 10.08.2011 4:13 PM PDT

Do you know what kind of hat I'm wearing?

A party hat; you don't get one. An honor will this party be, a party in your honor, for your honor. Some of Tfear's personal guards are going to be there. You'll be introduced shortly.

Prepare to die.

Posted by: ThePredkiller2

"Only the dead have seen the end of war," (Plato)
I think that you are misinterpreting that quote, Plato meant that there will always be wars as long as humanity exist. He didn't say that dying on the battlefield is more 'noble', but he's rather stating a fact.
There is a big difference between soldiers and warriors.

I don't see the difference.
(Except if you are insinuating that warriors fight from an ideological standpoint and soldiers for money)

But in the end, it doesn't really matter if you live or die, it's what you do that's important.

  • 10.08.2011 4:13 PM PDT


Posted by: crazypandarmada
Relevant to the quotes at the beginning
It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived. George S Patton


And that alone proves he does not possess the wisdom and knowledge of Sun Tzu or the Samurai, not to mention he probably knew nothing of the Spartans or their code of honor.

And so, that quote has NO relevance whatsoever to the above quotes, and in fact, directly contradicts them.

Posted by: But in the end, it doesn't really matter if you live or die, it's what you do that's important.


Hmm, wise words indeed.

  • 10.08.2011 4:18 PM PDT
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Characters who don't die can be assumed to have more skill.
I believe Noble 6 and Master Chief to be equals. Personal belief can be a factor aswell, such as in your post. To die for victory is a valiant concept,but for it to work some must live.My Example Noble 6 died so Chief could get off Reach, so infact 6 is the true hero of Halo, his death influenced the victory in that war,That being said Chief was a hero by surviving. by living he saved the galaxy.It pays to take into account cause and effect.

  • 10.08.2011 4:25 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Why is death necessary for victory in the context of war?

I am pretty sure that the first quote is simply referring to one who has proper conviction rather than saying that only those who are dead can be regarded as victorious. Victory is about achieving a goal, nothing more. Those who lived and those who died, who both shared the same conviction, are both victorious if that goal is realized. Unless the goal is to specifically die, then the dead are no more victorious than the living.

The rest of the quotes strike me as common sense -pick your battles wisely, have prudence and seek victory at the minimal cost- all of which Master Chief displays. Indeed, much of The Art of War is common sense almost.

You do not need to go to these lengths to try to explain how 6 is not inferior to MC.

Edit:
Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Posted by: Conster 110
Master Chief is still alive soooooooo...

So, he does not know what true victory feels like.

If feeling true victory requires death then there is no such thing as true victory. Dead people do not feel anything.

[Edited on 10.08.2011 5:13 PM PDT]

  • 10.08.2011 5:02 PM PDT

for some reason iv'e always liked it when my favourite characters in games and movies dies

  • 10.08.2011 5:08 PM PDT

It is not a matter of how you view those old war-related quotes, it's the fact they argue in general that those who died must have had a fault, must have been bad.

The viewpoint which, if twisted the right way(which is very easy), would say the coward who flees from every battle is better then those who hold the line knowing they would die.

Honestly I've heard this "Soldiers and Warriors are not the same thing." and I can't remember it's explanation... nor do I quite understand it right now.

[Edited on 10.08.2011 5:38 PM PDT]

  • 10.08.2011 5:38 PM PDT

Fear the Flight of the Falcon!


Posted by: ThePredkiller2

Posted by: H0FFman J

"He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious. He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious." (Sun Tzu)

...camper

Also;
"The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his"(Patton)
So, living > dying


Patton was an American war general. Sun Tzu was a Chinese Warlord who wrote the book The Art of War, Generals are usually the high ranking officers who sit behind desks at a headquarters and give the orders to the men who are really fighting. Sun Tzu was a warfare mastermind, Patton was a gung ho American who, like most Americans (I am one don't pull the race card on me) do not know what it is truly mean to be at zen with the art of war. Do not seriously tell me you don't know who Sun Tzu is, if you don't, you shouldn't be playing Halo.

The fact of the matter is, winning isn't everything. Captain Keyes, a character in the actual game series, said this in Fall of Reach TO Master Chief who seemed to not understand him at all, goes to show his lack of common sense. Here's another quote for you.

"Only the dead have seen the end of war," (Plato)

You need to broaden your horizons and look past the hollywood bs that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the fact of what it truly means to be a warrior.

There is a big difference between soldiers and warriors.
ehem, Patton was right there with the troops.

  • 10.08.2011 7:31 PM PDT

Generalizations.
Helping idiots hate other idiots since people have existed.

I hate to be a buzzkill, but Patton NEVER said,

"The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his."

That's misattributed in the movie Patton. He never actually said that in real life.

  • 10.08.2011 8:04 PM PDT

"I will show you how a true Prussian officer fights!"

"And i will show you where the iron crosses grow..."

- "Cross of Iron"


Posted by: ThePredkiller2

Posted by: Raptorx7

Posted by: ThePredkiller2

Posted by: H0FFman J

"He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious. He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious." (Sun Tzu)

...camper

Also;
"The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his"(Patton)
So, living > dying


Patton was an American war general. Sun Tzu was a Chinese Warlord who wrote the book The Art of War, Generals are usually the high ranking officers who sit behind desks at a headquarters and give the orders to the men who are really fighting. Sun Tzu was a warfare mastermind, Patton was a gung ho American who, like most Americans (I am one don't pull the race card on me) do not know what it is truly mean to be at zen with the art of war. Do not seriously tell me you don't know who Sun Tzu is, if you don't, you shouldn't be playing Halo.

The fact of the matter is, winning isn't everything. Captain Keyes, a character in the actual game series, said this in Fall of Reach TO Master Chief who seemed to not understand him at all, goes to show his lack of common sense. Here's another quote for you.

"Only the dead have seen the end of war," (Plato)

You need to broaden your horizons and look past the hollywood bs that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the fact of what it truly means to be a warrior.

There is a big difference between soldiers and warriors.


Patton was no desk job general sorry. He was right there with his troops most of the time. He kicked Rommel's butt in north Africa and paved the way through France. Eventually defeating the Germans at the battle of the bulge. Sun Tzu may have written the art of war but Patton applied it to fighting the most powerful nation in that time period and defeating them.


The N@Z1s lost WWII when Hitler declared war on the Soviet Union. It was the SOVIETS who stormed Berlin and defeated the N@Z1s. America just dropped some nukes.

Anyway, to be back on topic, what a lot of people don't seem to understand is that the SPARTANS were bungie's inspiration of the Spartan warriors of ancient Sparta. In my personal opinion, Noble Six and his team were Bungie's attempt to protray the ultimate SPARTAN warrior, and no less, the ultimate soldiers, to claim the ultimate victory by dying for their country.

Besides, making the other bastard die for his completely contradicts who came first and laid down the underlying structural foundation at the beginning of it all for what it means to be a warrior, Sun Tzu.


Ignorance is bliss...Of course America didnt win by itself. Its quite obvious the soviets were the main reason we won but in no way did we not play an important part in it sorry.

  • 10.08.2011 8:12 PM PDT

Art of War is about being able to tell if you will win or lose the battle before the battle even begins. If you are going to lose then retreat to avoid death and defeat. I don't see how this has to do with death being noble.
"Dying is easy, it's the living that's the hard part"
America and the Soviet union each put about the same number of soldiers into WW2. American soldiers were better equipped with superior weapons, weapons for every soldier, and longer and superior training. The soviet union was only able to gain victory because the German forces were entirely unprepared for the harsh winter as well as Hitler forcing his generals to advance even though his generals knew this would mean certain defeat.

  • 10.08.2011 8:26 PM PDT

"Halo! Its divine wind will rush through the stars, propelling all who are worthy along the path to salvation."

A soldier follows orders, a warrior follows his heart.

  • 10.08.2011 8:29 PM PDT


Posted by: greatestSheriff
A soldier follows orders, a warrior follows his heart.


need I say more

  • 10.08.2011 8:31 PM PDT

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