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Subject: So we're in a Debate about canon.
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We are determined that before the sun sets on this terrible struggle our flag will be recognized throughout the world as a symbol of freedom on the one hand and of overwhelming force on the other.


Posted by: SEAL Sniper 9
It all depends on the situation.


Sangheili Fleet Admiral, Zealot Class, has boarded the enemy flagship, a modified Marathon-class cruiser. He has made his way to the bridge with his other Elites spread throughout the bride causing havoc.

Fred tries to sneak up on him and jumps on his back, trying to restrain and kill the elite. The Elite flips him and goes to kill a different guy. Fred shoots him in the foot with a shotgun and the Elite smacks his shotgun away.

NOW THIS IS WHERE THE DEBATE SETS IN

The Elite still has his energy sword, and Fred is literally sitting on the Floor with no weapon besides his knife, while the ship is bombed and rocking back and forth.

What happens??

  • 10.09.2011 7:29 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

>The elite would try and stab Fred
>Fred would roll out of the way
>Fred would stab the elite in the hand, forcing him to drop the sword
>Fred leaps off the ground and dives the knife into the elites neck.

That's how I see it.

  • 10.09.2011 8:12 AM PDT

Posted by: ElementalRunner

Posted by: Commander Stroll
Still using a pump-action shotgun over 500 years in the future I see.

omg not realistic stop game production plz


Posted by: privet caboose
>The elite would try and stab Fred
>Fred would roll out of the way
>Fred would stab the elite in the hand, forcing him to drop the sword
>Fred leaps off the ground and dives the knife into the elites neck.

That's how I see it.


This, but also the situation given makes no sense to me; Fred has a shotgun, but tries to shoot an Elite in the FOOT??? What???

  • 10.09.2011 8:17 AM PDT
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We are determined that before the sun sets on this terrible struggle our flag will be recognized throughout the world as a symbol of freedom on the one hand and of overwhelming force on the other.

Posted by: privet caboose
>The elite would try and stab Fred
>Fred would roll out of the way
>Fred would stab the elite in the hand, forcing him to drop the sword
>Fred leaps off the ground and dives the knife into the elites neck.

That's how I see it.


I disagree. Fred, if I remember correctly, was always the evasive type, by evasive I mean escapee. I'm sure he would be quickly killed without Spartan support or he would have just escaped. I'm calling the Elite coming out alive.

  • 10.09.2011 8:20 AM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
>The elite would try and stab Fred
>Fred would roll out of the way
>Fred would stab the elite in the hand, forcing him to drop the sword
>Fred leaps off the ground and dives the knife into the elites neck.

That's how I see it.


I personally don't see it being that clear cut.

  • 10.09.2011 8:30 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.


Posted by: I Em I Raptor
Posted by: privet caboose
>The elite would try and stab Fred
>Fred would roll out of the way
>Fred would stab the elite in the hand, forcing him to drop the sword
>Fred leaps off the ground and dives the knife into the elites neck.

That's how I see it.


I disagree. Fred, if I remember correctly, was always the evasive type, by evasive I mean escapee. I'm sure he would be quickly killed without Spartan support or he would have just escaped. I'm calling the Elite coming out alive.


Fred is arguably the best Spartan II. He certainly isn't an "escapee"

  • 10.09.2011 8:32 AM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Depends on situation. Though a fleet admiral zealot isn't the same as your generic zealot, they are typically more skilled.

While I agree that Elites are not "better in every way." I don't think the reverse is true either. It's kinda like stormtroopers. They are elite soldiers, but they are constantly getting mowed down by the heroes. Doesn't make them worse :/.
We kinda think the same way,Elites aren't better than Spartans, but they are not worse. I believe their pretty much equals,

OT:Most Likely the Zealot,Fred is an excellent fighter,but I don't think he would win.
I saw the thread it was on, They both die though why does it matter?

  • 10.09.2011 8:44 AM PDT
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We are determined that before the sun sets on this terrible struggle our flag will be recognized throughout the world as a symbol of freedom on the one hand and of overwhelming force on the other.


Posted by: Voro Nar Talamee

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Depends on situation. Though a fleet admiral zealot isn't the same as your generic zealot, they are typically more skilled.

While I agree that Elites are not "better in every way." I don't think the reverse is true either. It's kinda like stormtroopers. They are elite soldiers, but they are constantly getting mowed down by the heroes. Doesn't make them worse :/.
We kinda think the same way,Elites aren't better than Spartans, but they are not worse. I believe their pretty much equals,

OT:Most Likely the Zealot,Fred is an excellent fighter,but I don't think he would win.
I saw the thread it was on, They both die though why does it matter?


I cut it off before Jack could rage infinitely. He gets really mad, so I just went along with Connor (Thel) and let them both die, the ship got destroyed by a cruiser shortly thereafter.

  • 10.09.2011 9:05 AM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose

Posted by: I Em I Raptor
Posted by: privet caboose
>The elite would try and stab Fred
>Fred would roll out of the way
>Fred would stab the elite in the hand, forcing him to drop the sword
>Fred leaps off the ground and dives the knife into the elites neck.

That's how I see it.


I disagree. Fred, if I remember correctly, was always the evasive type, by evasive I mean escapee. I'm sure he would be quickly killed without Spartan support or he would have just escaped. I'm calling the Elite coming out alive.


Fred is arguably the best Spartan II. He certainly isn't an "escapee"


At the same time, a zealot who has reached the rank of fleet admiral/fleetmaster is absolutely not a pushover.

  • 10.09.2011 9:11 AM PDT

My people were the chosen ones...we enforced the will of our prophets, the holy seers who lead our Covenant of believers along the path to the Great journey. From the day I could stand, I was trained to fight. I was watched by the prophets as I fought, and learned. Not all were strong enough to serve our prophets...But I was.

I think when people say that Chief owns Elites all the time, I think they're referring to themselves in Campaign on Easy. In the book "The Fall of Reach" A ranger (That is what I am guessing, since Minors usually don't do that kind of work, also because in Halo 2 the Ranger's armor color was a Light blue, that is what it says the Elite's armor color was during their zero-g fight, correct?) almost killed the Chief, the only reason the chief won was because he shot the Elite with a pistol, and I mean a Ranger! One of the easiest enemies to kill in campaign, and people think that Fred would win against a Zealot or Field Marshall, easily the toughest to kill in Campaign?

[Edited on 10.10.2011 10:46 AM PDT]

  • 10.10.2011 10:36 AM PDT


Posted by: mojeda101
Easily the Elite.

Chief almost died against a MINOR on Gamma Station, I'm sure a Spartan that is SLIGHTLY better than John in CQC would die at the hands of a HIGHLY trained Elite Zealot that is FAR superior than a minor.


You can't really use that scene as evidence for anything considering that it is now completely different due to John having fought Elites dozens of times before that point in the war instead of first encountering them on Reach. When the book first came out that was John's first time ever fighting an Elite, and the UNSC had absolutely no intel on them or their fighting styles or anything, he didn't know how strong it was or what exploits he could properly use to beat it. Now however he would have fought against Elites from the very beginning and would not be at such a disadvantage from lack of experience now that the first encounter with Elites has been ret-conned.

In addition the circumstances of the scenario itself play a part in it. They're fighting in zero gravity which John mentions in First Strike that no Spartan was ever particularly adept at except one, and not to mention conventional fighting won't work as well in no gravity. The Elite also had a fully over-charged Plasma Pistol and had ambushed John.

  • 10.10.2011 11:17 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

In every single novel john expresses how he does not want to fight elites in close quarters and shortly after that they are stated to be minors.

Him getting his ass handed to him on the AJ by a superior elite shows it. You can't be telling me that you think rtas,Thel, or any high ranking elite would have trouble with john or any spartan in general in h2h.

  • 10.10.2011 11:22 AM PDT

What's with all the criticising of Spartans going on around here? Fred could take on a group of Sangheili easily.

Consider; the majority of Spartan IIs survived most of the war; that's, what, thirty years of fighting against the Covenant. Countless Sangheili and other Covenant died at their hands during that time.

The Spartans were still standing, and if they did die it was often in the face of overwhelming odds, through anomalous circumstances, or self-sacrifice. There's a reason why the Master Chief won the war almost single-handed -- it's not luck. It annoys me when I see people around here saying 'the Master Chief is better only because he's lucky.'

No, he's better. You can't quantify a concept as abstract as luck. He killed all those Covenant because he's better than them all, because he's a Spartan II.

Plain and simple.

  • 10.10.2011 1:10 PM PDT

Someone is going to mention that they didn't start fighting elites until later in the war (according to the origninal TFOR), which has even been said by bungie to not be considered the canon date we met elites.

Given that elites were the head honchos on the battlefield, then certainly they were around since the beginning. Given that roughly 30 spartan-IIs survived 27 years of war with elites calling the shots and being more or less the biggest threat on the ground, then I think we can definitely say that spartan-IIs are through and through superior to 99.9% of elites.

Thousands and thousands of elites probably died by the S-IIs hands through the years...and how many S-IIs were there?

[Edited on 10.10.2011 1:18 PM PDT]

  • 10.10.2011 1:12 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Wolverfrog
What's with all the criticising of Spartans going on around here?

The Universe forum seems to be going through a phase of misanthropy for some reason.

  • 10.10.2011 1:24 PM PDT

I wake up to find myself
After all these years
And where all the time has gone
Still seems so unclear

You guys keep comparing stats. You can't do that in a fight. Stats don't mean anything if you can give yourself an advantage or alter stats like Spartans are trained to do. They mention it multiple times in pretty much every book.

I doubt Fred would even put himself in that situation to begin with, whoever wrote that about Fred probably doesn't understand how he works as a character.

Besides that obvious flaw, why the hell would an Admiral go on a mission? Just like Ship Masters, they command Ships. (The entire Fleet in this case.) He wouldn't leave his post to fight a lone Spartan, who, in his eyes, probably wouldn't pose a threat to his Fleet. The whole argument is flawed to begin with and not to mention completely irrelevant.

  • 10.10.2011 2:51 PM PDT


Posted by: Wolverfrog
What's with all the criticising of Spartans going on around here? Fred could take on a group of Sangheili easily.

Consider; the majority of Spartan IIs survived most of the war; that's, what, thirty years of fighting against the Covenant. Countless Sangheili and other Covenant died at their hands during that time.

The Spartans were still standing, and if they did die it was often in the face of overwhelming odds, through anomalous circumstances, or self-sacrifice. There's a reason why the Master Chief won the war almost single-handed -- it's not luck. It annoys me when I see people around here saying 'the Master Chief is better only because he's lucky.'

No, he's better. You can't quantify a concept as abstract as luck. He killed all those Covenant because he's better than them all, because he's a Spartan II.

Plain and simple.


A: I doubt the bulk of the Spartans spent the war in hand to hand combat.

B: Look above. The Spartans also were backed by the UNSC forces. And against, ranged combat over hand to hand.

C: For one, Chief did not win the war almost single-handed. He had help nearly everywhere. What won the war was The elites joining the Humans during the final days and Thel, not Chief, killing the prophet of Truth.

D: We can also argue luck has been used as a plot shield for Chief to get him out of horrible spots.

E: Again, Elite Zealout, fleet master rank (aka one of the highest), with energy sword vs Fred, with no weapons other then maybe a combat knife (as per the situation given). I'm sorry but the Elite has the upper hand here.

  • 10.10.2011 3:16 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
A: I doubt the bulk of the Spartans spent the war in hand to hand combat.

But it is likewise ludicrous to think that the bulk of them never, in the 27 years, got into a hand-to-hand fights with Elites.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
B: Look above. The Spartans also were backed by the UNSC forces. And against, ranged combat over hand to hand.

And Elites were backed by Covenant forces, often with air superiority throughout the war.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
E: Again, Elite Zealout, fleet master rank (aka one of the highest), with energy sword vs Fred, with no weapons other then maybe a combat knife (as per the situation given). I'm sorry but the Elite has the upper hand here.

So did the Zealot with the Energy sword that was standing over 6, yet 6 snapped his leg out and kicked the sword from the Zealot's own hand. Fred is not nearly as injured as 6 in this scenario. Spartans are not pushovers either, which the majority of this forum seem to think now.

There are some rather fatuous assumptions one must make in order to claim that Zealots would win most of the time against Spartans:

~ Firstly that the Spartans never got into hand-to-hand fights with Elites throughout the war, and if the Spartans do win, then it is "luck". (Because people think that they should be killed almost every single time)

~ That they have never encountered Zealots before, or fought them in H2H before in the 27 years of fighting and countless battles that the Spartans took part in. (Because it is thought that Zealots are "more skilled" and should be able to outsmart the Spartans and defeat them whether it is ranged or H2H)

~ That Thel 'Vadam is a poor warrior who must have cheated his way up to Zealot status because he struggled for dear life against Jai.

  • 10.11.2011 10:03 AM PDT

I never said that for one Anton. However some people make it sound like in every single style combat Spartans easily best Elites and have done so often.

As for the final one... I have never said Spartans are pushovers, what I'm mostly saying is a fleetmaster zealot is not a pushover either who'll straight line charge Fred, and easily get disarmed and killed with little effort from the Spartan's part. I think it's two different things to say the fight won't be easy, and one side will easily win.

And to be frank... we don't have accounts of most of the battles so we aren't sure what went down, or what was deployed :/. I mean, saying "Spartans have killed countless elites!" can't truly be supported :/.

  • 10.11.2011 10:40 AM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

I find most "VS" threads to be a huge waste of time. You can never really know what will happen in the hypothetical situations people pose.

  • 10.11.2011 10:59 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I never said that for one Anton. However some people make it sound like in every single style combat Spartans easily best Elites and have done so often.

What is the alternative to them not doing so? Lots of dead Spartans not mostly killed from bombs or being hopelessly outnumbered is the alternative. I do not see evidence of that. In fact that evidence cannot exist, because most are still alive by the end of the war. I think that the position is, not only unsupported, but disproven then.

The Spartans won on the ground, always. If the Spartans were more numerous like the Marines then they would change the outcome of the war. No more defensiveness for Humanity, they could quite easily attack the root of the Covenant war machine like they began to do with the Spartan-IIIs. However, they are not numerous. This is not the sound of a group of soldiers that are by most measurable standards comparatively equal or in most cases inferior to the best of what the antagonists can put up. There would be no assurance in their victory then. In fact it would be just as hopeless. I may be sounding like Jonxz now, but I honestly think it is the truth. The Spartans are supposed to be the best and a source of hope in the Haloverse. They have the most attention in the media; not something to be debauched for quite possibly no reason in favor of completely arbitrary villains that are not even important to the overall fiction. The Elites could be anyone, the Spartans cannot.

  • 10.11.2011 11:35 AM PDT

We have conflicting statements... I don't have the book to check, but others have said how Master Chief mentions he doesn't want to get in close with Elites, or in general doesn't breeze though.

Really, this seems kinda like the stormtrooper effect. They are elite, well trained soldiers, but if a hero (spartan) enters the room they turn into blubbering idiots who couldn't shoot a hot pink star destroyer sitting two feet away. I mean, Elites are commonly referred to as "equals" to spartans in terms of strength/combat ability, yet get rolled over easily and often?...

My thought is just that Spartans aren't super-best-godlike-unbeatable. It depends on the situation and individuals. I mean, people act as if it's set in stone and in 1 vs 1 combat a Spartan cannot ever lose and will always triumph. The absolute only way to kill a Spartan is by massively overwhelming numbers... I just don't accept that <_<.

  • 10.11.2011 12:05 PM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

One thing that frustrates me about this post is that the world is not a rock-paper-scissors game. An Elite theoretically wouldn't always lose to Fred. Considering any situation or what each is armed with, it is just as possible the Elite would win that the Elite would lose. You can't just say "Fred > Elites 100% of the time". That's impossible. Consider this;
1. Fred rounds a corner.
2. An Elite throws a sticky on him.
3. Fred dies.
See how easy it is for Fred to lose and the Elite to win depending on the situation? There's no certainty that Fred would 'own' this Elite, just as there is no certainty that the Elite would 'own' Fred.

[Edited on 10.11.2011 1:29 PM PDT]

  • 10.11.2011 1:29 PM PDT


Posted by: MegaMuffin16
One thing that frustrates me about this post is that the world is not a rock-paper-scissors game. An Elite theoretically wouldn't always lose to Fred. Considering any situation or what each is armed with, it is just as possible the Elite would win that the Elite would lose. You can't just say "Fred > Elites 100% of the time". That's impossible. Consider this;
1. Fred rounds a corner.
2. An Elite throws a sticky on him.
3. Fred dies.
See how easy it is for Fred to lose and the Elite to win depending on the situation? There's no certainty that Fred would 'own' this Elite, just as there is no certainty that the Elite would 'own' Fred.


Exactly, it's very situational and saying the Spartan will always be on top is just... blah.

  • 10.11.2011 2:52 PM PDT

Another factor to take into account could be a mental one. Remember, throughout the Covenant, Spartans aren't viewed as normal humans. They're demons, with all the connotations that word brings. Not of this world, more terrible than any mere mortal.

I think facing such a deity, even the most hardened of Sangheili would feel a tinge of fear at the backs of their minds, affecting performance in battle.

  • 10.11.2011 5:45 PM PDT

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