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Subject: An Interesting Phenomenon I've Found


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Ruby of the Blue

Posted by: grey101


Posted by: Sigma617
I'm still a little disgusted with the fact that Regret's expeditionary fleet made landfall in the first place.

Nothing should have been able to survive that volume of firepower. Nothing.[/quote]

THIS THIS THIS THIS

You'd think that the other platforms would fire on Regret's Carrier, seeing that Athens and Malta were too dead to do it.
OR why the ABUNDANCES of ships didn't fire en masse on the Carrier (though they may have been busy fighting the Cruisers, but still, thirteen Cruisers, two Carriers, versus God knows how many UNSC ships. I think there's more than enough UNSC to go around).
And why didn't Cairo take shots at the Assault Carrier?

Also,
"I take it back! Navy got its butt kicked!"
Is, or at least should be a pure lie. The first reason being clear. The second reason being:
"And we most definitely regret the Corps just blew up our raggedy-ass fleet!"
...which is a DIRECT contradiction. MAKE UP YOUR MIND BUNGIE.


Halo:CE:

Johnson's speech -> numerous personnel being slaughtered on the Pillar of Autumn [/quote]

But wouldn't the UNSC have done well on repelling the Covenant from the bridge, considering they're more tactically intelligent? Especially since they were suiting up and prepping for battle before the Covenant even got to the ship.

I always thought it was retarded how you'd always find dead Marines everywhere in every level with them, but no dead Covenant. Come ON, Bungie, the UNSC isn't made up of two year old's.

/ragefest[/quote]

um Half of the platforms where offline; The Malta and Athens were the only ODPs (other than yours) that was in the Area to take out that ship. The other ones had there on issues to deal with.


Over two hundred ships and what, one-hundred and forty-eight platforms (on one side of the planet) isn't enough to prioritize? ._.
The ships could have handled the thirteen Cruisers while the platforms all joined their fire on the two Carriers.
It's a bit absurd to claim that a MAC gun's range is limited to the area of its cluster, considering all of the MAC platforms that represent individual places on Earth aren't all that spread out.


when did i say Over 200 ships? I was being generous with 200 because the current official number is "over 100". And didn't i just say majority of the ODPs were offline?

Again you fail to understand the circumstance of a surprise attack. The UNSC did not know that regrets ship was going to appear at earth and they weren't ready for it hence the ODPs not being online for another 2 weeks. Not only that but the human fleet was scattered and the ships there were at earth probably got caught in rotation (just like reach).

So when you are completely off guard and a dozen ships make a B line for your planet you don't have much to do. Also majority of the human ships were frigates which would take dozens to destroy a CCS class ship and dozens more trying to take out the ship.


So, then Johnson's motivational speech at the start meant nothing?
"When I shipped out for basic, the orbital defense grid was all theories and politics. Now look. That Cairo is just ONE of THREE-HUNDRED geo-synchronized platforms."
Johnson is saying with confidence that when he first left, Earth wasn't very well fortified, but now, it was.
He would not be saying this if half of them were offline.

And by this time, they were already fully, and dreadfully expecting the Covenant to arrive at any moment, indicated by Lord Hood's "I apologize, but we're going to have to make this quick." in response to Cortana's "Another whisper, sir, near Io, we have probes en route."

So that means the UNSC was fully anticipating the Covenant's appearance, while Johnson is talking about how the MAC guns are all up, and Earth is ready for battle.

Why would Johnson be bragging about their strong defensive formation, knowing that the Covenant was fast approaching, being that only one-hundred and fifty of them were operational?

This may be another instance of the games contradicting the books if First Strike is where you're deriving your information from.


Last time i checked johnson just got back to Earth and ground soldiers don't know every little detail about what is going on. Example being that the everyday servicemen doesn't know that the attack on reach was a planned failure by ONI, does johnson know that? because he was at Reach.


That is not how character dialogue and inference works at all. The purpose of Johnson's speech was to emphasize the fact that the orbital defense grid was fully functional and prepped for battle.

This is only a contradiction between the games and the books, and nothing more.

To say that Johnson is absolutely wrong about what he's talking about because of the pathetic and weak example you gave is just not believable in the slightest, especially since nothing in the games even hints about half of the platforms being offline, while Johnson says that their defensive formation is fully functional-- "The orbital defense grid was all theories and politics. NOW LOOK: THAT CAIRO IS JUST ONE OF THREE-HUNDRED GEOSYNCHRONIZED PLATFORMS.".

Why would Johnson not be aware of something so blaring and important as half of the stations being offline? There's no reason.

This gives the strong implication that Bungie and the author of GoO both had completely different ideas about where to take the situation of the plot.

[Edited on 10.10.2011 3:19 PM PDT]

  • 10.10.2011 3:05 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Rant all you want but since you don't read the books and refuse to do say for your own reasons it really doesn't matter.

What 1 solider says doesn't compare to a high-comm official saying it is going to take 10 days for them to be online.

And the point of that statement can be debated since there was no tone in his voice. But i believe he was focused more on the point of "Before i shipped to basic", meaning Decades ago this was just politics but now its a reality. He was born sometime in late 2400, so he is old.

  • 10.10.2011 3:29 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101
Rant all you want but since you don't read the books and refuse to do say for your own reasons it really doesn't matter.


Can't defend your own argument anymore, so resorting to something completely irrelevant considering I'm holding my own?

What 1 solider says doesn't compare to a high-comm official saying it is going to take 10 days for them to be online.

And the point of that statement can be debated since there was no tone in his voice. But i believe he was focused more on the point of "Before i shipped to basic", meaning Decades ago this was just politics but now its a reality. He was born sometime in late 2400, so he is old.


I think almost everybody can agree with me that now you're just spewing malarkey.

You're a joke to argue with compared to DecepticonCobra.

[Edited on 10.10.2011 7:08 PM PDT]

  • 10.10.2011 7:06 PM PDT


Posted by: Ruby of the Blue

Posted by: grey101
Rant all you want but since you don't read the books and refuse to do say for your own reasons it really doesn't matter.


Can't defend your own argument anymore, so resorting to something completely irrelevant considering I'm holding my own?

What 1 solider says doesn't compare to a high-comm official saying it is going to take 10 days for them to be online.

And the point of that statement can be debated since there was no tone in his voice. But i believe he was focused more on the point of "Before i shipped to basic", meaning Decades ago this was just politics but now its a reality. He was born sometime in late 2400, so he is old.


I think almost everybody can agree with me that now you're just spewing malarkey.

You're a joke to argue with compared to DecepticonCobra.


Can't defend your own argument anymore, so resorting to something completely irrelevant considering he's holding his own?

I love irony :)

Simply put, there was a breach in the defenses. Please understand the purpose of a battle cluster: they are assigned to defend a select area, in this case, Africa/southeastern European airspace. Read my previous post, with a breach in the defenses two-thirds of the cluster wide, Regret managed to slip through unharmed, while another AC provided him cover.

Its not a difficult concept to grasp, its a simple naval strategy that worked.

  • 10.10.2011 9:02 PM PDT

Find our Clan DemiXXGods on private groups. Want to join MS me hope to see you soon!

We still won because Spartans are boss

  • 10.10.2011 9:11 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Ruby of the Blue

Posted by: grey101
Rant all you want but since you don't read the books and refuse to do say for your own reasons it really doesn't matter.


Can't defend your own argument anymore, so resorting to something completely irrelevant considering I'm holding my own?

What 1 solider says doesn't compare to a high-comm official saying it is going to take 10 days for them to be online.

And the point of that statement can be debated since there was no tone in his voice. But i believe he was focused more on the point of "Before i shipped to basic", meaning Decades ago this was just politics but now its a reality. He was born sometime in late 2400, so he is old.


I think almost everybody can agree with me that now you're just spewing malarkey.

You're a joke to argue with compared to DecepticonCobra.



Original First strike page 106


" Hood whispered, "Doctor Halsey.Whitcomb. We lost too many good people on Reach.Not to mention dozens of ships"He pursed his lips into a razor-thin line.

"We should send a small recon force to see what is left," General Strauss suggested.

Not wise sir, Ackerson Replied, "we must pull back and reinforce the Inner Colonies and Earth. The new Orbital Platforms won't be online for another Ten Days, until then our defenses will be far too WEAK. we'll need every ship we have"
"


So are you telling me that somebody who has been a sergeant major for decades would be more correct than a colonel That is an ONI Spook? This was said infront of Lord hood who is a freaking Rear admiral and another general, i would like to think that if he was wrong they would correct him.



Your wrong and just get over it.

  • 10.11.2011 5:48 AM PDT

Here's how I see it:

ONI's 'RED FLAG' operation on Reach didn't go according to plan -- however, they discover that on the oncoming fleet to Earth, the Prophet of Regret will be aboard one of the ships.

As such, they spin a bull-blam!- story to HIGHCOM about the orbital defence platforms being offline for ten days so Regret's ship will be able to break Earth's atmosphere and be ready for capture. So as to not break morale, command doesn't tell the rank and file about the deactivated ODPs, hence Johnson's smug assurance at the beginning of the game.

When the battle starts, they see some of the ODPs aren't firing and most likely assume the Covenant have taken control/sabotaged them.

Regret's ship takes advantage of the lull in security to break atmosphere -- the inactive ODPs are then activated per ONI's command, and the rest of his fleet gets annihilated as they're taken by surprise.

ONI sanctions a team of ODSTs to drop in and infiltrate Regret's ship, with a few knowing the true objective -- capture of the High Prophet.

However, Regret surprises everybody by doing something never done by the Covenant before -- an in-atmosphere slipspace jump 'RED FLAG' fails once more.

  • 10.11.2011 6:23 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

I don't understand why we are assuming that they tried to do another Red flag again.

  • 10.11.2011 6:31 AM PDT

Ridiculous, far-fetched conjecture helps me sleep at night.

  • 10.11.2011 6:37 AM PDT


Posted by: Sigma617
Oh wow. I leave home for a few days and this is what happens?

To add onto my point, 2 ODPs are are insignificant loss compared to the Orbital defense net as a whole. These platforms are semi mobile and they could have covered the breaks in the net with little effort. Even if they couldn't the home fleet could have substituted for the lost ODPs.

It is appalling how the UNSC lost to Regret's expeditionary fleet. They were VASTLY outnumbered even if you discount the ODPs.


How did they lose? Only one ship got through the ODPs and that was through the small hole in the defenses. A defense net is useless for stopping the enemy if there is a hole in its defensive structure, not to mention there was a large battle going on all around the area, it would not be all that difficult to get a good head-start through the chaos and then be safely in a position where the SMACs could no longer fire on the ship and/or the UNSC could no longer pursue by ship. So does Regret slipping through and then running for his cowardly life at most a couple hours later equate to the UNSC losing?

  • 10.11.2011 10:11 AM PDT


Posted by: grey101
I don't understand why we are assuming that they tried to do another Red flag again.


Because, to me (and many of us appearantly) it seems logical that if the Covenant show up at your doorstep you try to do everything you can think of to win.
And if a single Capital Ship lands, with minimal defences, on Earth and you already had a plan to take a Prophet hostage...surely you would try to take that advantage wouldn't you? I mean, even without knowing there actually is a Prophet on board, but going in with the idea to take the Ship to High Charity filled with cheaper assets (ODSTs) and take a Prophet at HC, or maybe just being able to crash the thing on HC and cause major damage. Who knows.

All I know is, ONI got a scenario for potentially turning the tides in their favor thrown in their laps. I am sure, that if they could manage to take control of the ship, they would have tried to use it at their advantage.

  • 10.11.2011 10:25 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Sigma617
Oh wow. I leave home for a few days and this is what happens?

To add onto my point, 2 ODPs are are insignificant loss compared to the Orbital defense net as a whole. These platforms are semi mobile and they could have covered the breaks in the net with little effort. Even if they couldn't the home fleet could have substituted for the lost ODPs.

It is appalling how the UNSC lost to Regret's expeditionary fleet. They were VASTLY outnumbered even if you discount the ODPs.


How did they lose? Only one ship got through the ODPs and that was through the small hole in the defenses. . So does Regret slipping through and then running for his cowardly life at most a couple hours later equate to the UNSC losing?


What the -blam!-?


The whole point is NOT to let anything through your defenses, period. It doesn't matter how small the breach is but the fact there is a breach.


Regrets ships breaking through shows that the covenant COULD break through and ontop of that there is then a gap that can be exploited.

We only know that regrets ship got through, but we do not know if any of the other ships got through right after. Seeing how he made an in atmosphere jump, the others probably did the same.
Making the ODPs pointless and explaining how there are still ODPs during GoO while ships are uncovering the portal.

  • 10.11.2011 12:11 PM PDT

hi

I love the way everyone just talks about something wich has noting to do with the thread...

  • 10.11.2011 1:04 PM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

I feel the might of the UNSC was not expressed enough in Reach. We're talking about humanity's stronghold here, the greatest Naval fleet humankind has ever witnessed! And what do we see throughout this game? Three frigates and a space station.

  • 10.11.2011 1:38 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Ruby of the Blue

Posted by: grey101
Rant all you want but since you don't read the books and refuse to do say for your own reasons it really doesn't matter.


Can't defend your own argument anymore, so resorting to something completely irrelevant considering I'm holding my own?

What 1 solider says doesn't compare to a high-comm official saying it is going to take 10 days for them to be online.

And the point of that statement can be debated since there was no tone in his voice. But i believe he was focused more on the point of "Before i shipped to basic", meaning Decades ago this was just politics but now its a reality. He was born sometime in late 2400, so he is old.


I think almost everybody can agree with me that now you're just spewing malarkey.

You're a joke to argue with compared to DecepticonCobra.


Your wrong and just get over it.


Nice grammar.
It's a contradiction between the games and the books, and the game ranks higher on the canon hierarchy than the novels, confirmed by Bungie (and yes, 343 is taking care of the franchise now, but as far as they're concerned, they haven't done anything and I don't think they're going to make any more contradictions other than getting rid of that garbage encyclopedia's information, possibly. Halo is a game franchise primarily, anyway, so that's what they're going to have to give the most attention to.).
The only thing that's wrong here is you thinking you're right.

Let's see:
Games states that the 300 platforms are online and ready to go with no mention of anything otherwise.
Book says half of them are offline.

Without having to take the "game trumps book" explanation, you can clearly see that this is only a fallacy.

[Edited on 10.11.2011 3:04 PM PDT]

  • 10.11.2011 2:44 PM PDT


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Ruby of the Blue

Posted by: grey101
Rant all you want but since you don't read the books and refuse to do say for your own reasons it really doesn't matter.


Can't defend your own argument anymore, so resorting to something completely irrelevant considering I'm holding my own?

What 1 solider says doesn't compare to a high-comm official saying it is going to take 10 days for them to be online.

And the point of that statement can be debated since there was no tone in his voice. But i believe he was focused more on the point of "Before i shipped to basic", meaning Decades ago this was just politics but now its a reality. He was born sometime in late 2400, so he is old.


I think almost everybody can agree with me that now you're just spewing malarkey.

You're a joke to argue with compared to DecepticonCobra.


Can't defend your own argument anymore, so resorting to something completely irrelevant considering he's holding his own?

I love irony :)


I already gave my entire argument using logic and reasoning, I was able to defend it and back it up, so I don't see your point.

Sorry bud, maybe next time.

[Edited on 10.11.2011 3:04 PM PDT]

  • 10.11.2011 2:58 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Ruby of the Blue

Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Ruby of the Blue

Posted by: grey101
Rant all you want but since you don't read the books and refuse to do say for your own reasons it really doesn't matter.


Can't defend your own argument anymore, so resorting to something completely irrelevant considering I'm holding my own?

What 1 solider says doesn't compare to a high-comm official saying it is going to take 10 days for them to be online.

And the point of that statement can be debated since there was no tone in his voice. But i believe he was focused more on the point of "Before i shipped to basic", meaning Decades ago this was just politics but now its a reality. He was born sometime in late 2400, so he is old.


I think almost everybody can agree with me that now you're just spewing malarkey.

You're a joke to argue with compared to DecepticonCobra.


Can't defend your own argument anymore, so resorting to something completely irrelevant considering he's holding his own?

I love irony :)


I already gave my entire argument using logic and reasoning, and I was able to defend it and back it up, so I don't see your point.

Sorry bud, maybe next time.


I didn't see you backing up whatever you are trying to say.

And bungies rules do not apply and have not applied for years. Frankie said at (PAX,halofest?) that the universe will be more universal and everything will tie in.

Which means books=games.

  • 10.11.2011 3:02 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Ruby of the Blue

Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Ruby of the Blue

Posted by: grey101
Rant all you want but since you don't read the books and refuse to do say for your own reasons it really doesn't matter.


Can't defend your own argument anymore, so resorting to something completely irrelevant considering I'm holding my own?

What 1 solider says doesn't compare to a high-comm official saying it is going to take 10 days for them to be online.

And the point of that statement can be debated since there was no tone in his voice. But i believe he was focused more on the point of "Before i shipped to basic", meaning Decades ago this was just politics but now its a reality. He was born sometime in late 2400, so he is old.


I think almost everybody can agree with me that now you're just spewing malarkey.

You're a joke to argue with compared to DecepticonCobra.


Can't defend your own argument anymore, so resorting to something completely irrelevant considering he's holding his own?

I love irony :)


I already gave my entire argument using logic and reasoning, and I was able to defend it and back it up, so I don't see your point.

Sorry bud, maybe next time.


I didn't see you backing up whatever you are trying to say.

And bungies rules do not apply and have not applied for years. Frankie said at (PAX,halofest?) that the universe will be more universal and everything will tie in.

Which means books=games.


That's for in the future, this is about Halo 2 and GoO.
Of course 343 is going to have the novels fully related to the games, negating the need for a canon hierarchy.

But for Bungie's games that are without explanation from 343 (like Reach got an explanation on HaloWaypoint recently), Halo 2 trumps the book by default by Bungie's standards.

And in this case, Halo 2 certainly does not equal Ghosts of Onyx, as evident in both of our arguments.

  • 10.11.2011 3:09 PM PDT

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Posted by: Ruby of the Also,
"I take it back! Navy got its butt kicked!"
Is, or at least should be a pure lie. The first reason being clear. The second reason being:
"And we most definitely regret the Corps just blew up our raggedy-ass fleet!"
...which is a DIRECT contradiction. MAKE UP YOUR MIND BUNGIE.


You're an idiot

Bungie didnt say the corps blew up the fleat, or that the navy got its butt kicked

JOHNSON said the corps blew up a -blam!- fleet
ROMEO said the navy got its butt kicked

Characters make obseravations, Characters make mistakes, Characters boast and brag

  • 10.11.2011 3:09 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Um you can even say that since you don't even read the books. Ackerson is a colonel and an ONI spook what he says has more weight than Johnson. A ship commander who has been at Earth far longer than Johnson; is going to know more about the defenses than Johnson.

  • 10.11.2011 3:12 PM PDT


Posted by: WEDGESKYWALKER

Posted by: Ruby of the Also,
"I take it back! Navy got its butt kicked!"
Is, or at least should be a pure lie. The first reason being clear. The second reason being:
"And we most definitely regret the Corps just blew up our raggedy-ass fleet!"
...which is a DIRECT contradiction. MAKE UP YOUR MIND BUNGIE.


You're an idiot

Bungie didnt say the corps blew up the fleat, or that the navy got its butt kicked

JOHNSON said the corps blew up a -blam!- fleet
ROMEO said the navy got its butt kicked

Characters make obseravations, Characters make mistakes, Characters boast and brag


You obviously don't understand the purpose of storytelling and dialogue. And evidently, neither does Bungie for the reason I gave.
You can't just have a character pointlessly make a remark that is completely wrong.
Romeo's statement was just horribly out of place.

It would be like if in a war movie, the American soldiers drive the Germans back with ease. Then later a the command post, one of the soldiers says "Oh man. That was the bloodiest battle I've ever been in. We barely won... *huff* *huff* *cough*"
Because that is analogous to what is happening between Johnson's and Romeo's dialogue in the games.

[Edited on 10.11.2011 3:20 PM PDT]

  • 10.11.2011 3:12 PM PDT

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Posted by: Ruby of the Blue

Posted by: WEDGESKYWALKER

Posted by: Ruby of the Also,
"I take it back! Navy got its butt kicked!"
Is, or at least should be a pure lie. The first reason being clear. The second reason being:
"And we most definitely regret the Corps just blew up our raggedy-ass fleet!"
...which is a DIRECT contradiction. MAKE UP YOUR MIND BUNGIE.


You're an idiot

Bungie didnt say the corps blew up the fleat, or that the navy got its butt kicked

JOHNSON said the corps blew up a -blam!- fleet
ROMEO said the navy got its butt kicked

Characters make obseravations, Characters make mistakes, Characters boast and brag


You obviously don't understand the purpose of storytelling and dialogue. And evidently, neither does Bungie for the reason I gave OR if you're... actually right. D:

Diolouge is important yes

But you also have to see where its coming from

Sargey J was in the middle of the battle, seeing how hard they faught, seeing each covenent death, this the covenent getting its butt kicked

romeo was up above, and only saw the devestation the covenent caused, this, the Navy getting its butt kicked

  • 10.11.2011 3:14 PM PDT


Posted by: WEDGESKYWALKER

Posted by: Ruby of the Blue

Posted by: WEDGESKYWALKER

Posted by: Ruby of the Also,
"I take it back! Navy got its butt kicked!"
Is, or at least should be a pure lie. The first reason being clear. The second reason being:
"And we most definitely regret the Corps just blew up our raggedy-ass fleet!"
...which is a DIRECT contradiction. MAKE UP YOUR MIND BUNGIE.


You're an idiot

Bungie didnt say the corps blew up the fleat, or that the navy got its butt kicked

JOHNSON said the corps blew up a -blam!- fleet
ROMEO said the navy got its butt kicked

Characters make obseravations, Characters make mistakes, Characters boast and brag


You obviously don't understand the purpose of storytelling and dialogue. And evidently, neither does Bungie for the reason I gave OR if you're... actually right. D:

romeo was up above, and only saw the devestation the covenent caused, this, the Navy getting its butt kicked


That is only a roundabout, confusing method of storytelling that makes very little sense, especially if it's not explained properly.

Read my edit in the last post.

[Edited on 10.11.2011 3:18 PM PDT]

  • 10.11.2011 3:18 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101
Um you can even say that since you don't even read the books.


And why not, O Wise Sage?

Ackerson is a colonel and an ONI spook what he says has more weight than Johnson. A ship commander who has been at Earth far longer than Johnson; is going to know more about the defenses than Johnson.

THINK: Bungie inserted this dialogue, ITS PURPOSE being to explain the entire, FUNCTIONAL defense grid.
THINK OUTSIDE OF THE STORY ITSELF, and in the development.
Bungie WOULD NOT have inserted the dialogue if they intended for Johnson to be completely wrong and stupid about what he was talking about. This would be something people would call: "MISLEADING INFORMATION" .
Think the other way, and you can see quite clearly that Bungie wanted 300 MACs online.

Actually, the novel was released in 2006, Halo 2 in 2004, so it's really the book's fault for contradicting the game in the first place. It's a subtle quirk, but hey, that's what we're talking about.

So we have Bungie saying 300 MACs are there, while the book coming out two years later says 150. So blame GoO for this. The author didn't quite grasp what Johnson was saying, I guess.

[Edited on 10.11.2011 3:29 PM PDT]

  • 10.11.2011 3:26 PM PDT

I don't see how Romeo's comment is out of place. As said, when they launch what does he see? A cluster of ruined frigates.

A more appropriate comparison would be.

American forces drive back the German assault. A Soldier in one area looks around and notes a number of ruined tanks.

He goes "Man, the armored core got their asses kicked here." Is he wrong? Maybe concerning the entire battle. But, based on what he simply sees he is correct.

Edit: I also Doubt in the short time they were at Earth before halo 2 johnson would get the complete tour of the planet defenses and know the details.

[Edited on 10.11.2011 3:30 PM PDT]

  • 10.11.2011 3:28 PM PDT

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