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This topic has moved here: Subject: Brutes: The enemy without an identity
  • Subject: Brutes: The enemy without an identity
Subject: Brutes: The enemy without an identity

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

I know only hardcore universe fans will read this, but I hope most of you at least skim.

It is clear that Bungie had always had a hard time giving the Brute a defining character throughout the series. They're the only Covenant enemy to change so drastically from a game-to-game basis. But why? Why did Bungie have such a hard time making the Brute constant?

The answer may lie in how they function. It's no secret that Halo 2 was rushed, and thus the Brutes were never given the full appreciation they were supposed to get. They were described as pack mentalists prone to berserker violence. But in reality, they were just bullet sponges. They didn't do much to avoid you and when they weren't standing there or running straight at you, they weren't doing anything. This was a huge contrast from Elites, which were cunning with their ability to flank and use the terrain to their advantage. The difference between Elites and Brutes is understandable though, after all they're different species and Bungie wanted to show that Brutes are not Elite clones.

Their behavior shows this. Instead of commanding the other Covenant species on the battlefield, they pretty much let them do whatever while the Brutes do their own thing. Okay, that's fine. It tell us that Brutes are very different from other Covenant and have a very proud sense of being. This defines them as characters.

But perhaps they were too different. Their look didn't seem to fit into the Covenant at all. Instead of wearing colorful and beautiful pieces of armor, they wore Kieser helmets and flags on their shoulders. Okay, so I suppose at that point we could assume the Brutes were holding onto their pre-Covenant roots right? After all, they don't use other Covenant weaponry, they don't use Covenant armor, perhaps the Brutes want to hold onto the old ways. Again, that's fine.

Enter Halo 3. The Brute armor changes - they actually get some armor. They've gone from wearing nothing to wearing almost Elite-ish colorful armor in a few months. This is complete contrast to what we knew about them in Halo 2: Instead of standing out this seems to suggest they're trying to blend in. But there's another inconsistency with this: The Spiker and the Chopper. Although the Brutes seem to be getting used to using Covenant armor, they've suddenly decided to keep using their own weaponry; Spiker, Brute Shot, Chopper, Prowler etc. Not only this but the Brutes start showing very dominant command over the other Covenant. Telling the Grunts to "Go look for him", or "Throw a grenade", or even simple commands like "Stay together". This is a huge turnaround from Halo 2, where they pretty much did their own thing. In this sense, did Bungie simply want to keep the gameplay similar enough to Elites? Halo 3 changes our perception of the Brute and what kind of character they are. They contradict each other.

Enter Halo 3: ODST. Perhaps Bungie has finally decide to define the Brute. They're keeping mostly with their behavior from Halo 3, so maybe this is the path they want to take. They're strong, they're intimidating, but at the same time they're smart and not bullet sponges. They command the field but do not care what happens to other Covenant. This seems to be right where Bungie wanted the Brutes, and I think this was the perfect place for them to be. So why change it?

Halo: Reach releases. Why oh why, after all that, do we have such a reversal of the Brute behavior? I understand this is a prequel, so I can understand why some would say they were behaving in more of a Halo 2 type way because this was before Halo 2. But that can't be right - An entire species just changes its mentality from hundreds or even thousands of years to a completely different aspect of accepting Covenant style in a few months? This just doesn't make sense. It would make more sense to have made the Brutes in an ODST fashion and discount Halo 2, realizing the game was rushed and that is why they are so different. But perhaps Bungie just thought they would be too much like Elites in that case. I don't know.

Why do you think Bungie had such a hard time with Brutes throughout the series?

  • 10.13.2011 2:38 PM PDT

I <3 Combat Evolved

Maybe because Bungie intended to develop them over the series, so, as you already pointed out, they were undefined in the early stages?

  • 10.13.2011 2:42 PM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

Posted by: rr2157
Maybe because Bungie intended to develop them over the series, so, as you already pointed out, they were undefined in the early stages?
Yes but as I point out then why a reversal in Reach? If they want to define Brutes as one character without such a drastic change they shouldn't have backtracked in Reach.

  • 10.13.2011 2:45 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

I think it was their basic design. Halo 2 was rushed, as you said, so I don't think Bungie had the time to develop the Brutes in the way they wished. Perhaps the change from 2 to 3 was to get away from the "big dumb ape" stereotype. If Bungie had more time they might have been able to develop them in a better way. As it is, they are the worst of the Halo enemies. Too human like to be alien and threatening, and a lack of menace that the Elites posses.

  • 10.13.2011 2:47 PM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

Religious fanatics can adapt quite swiftly to changes demanded. The Brutes pre Halo 2 were almost never in command of other Covenant units, which would make sense why they were always ''doing their thing'', the time from being one of the lower classes of the Covenant to the overthrowing the Elite's position dosent give time for the Brutes to get their armor with shields and such.

Come Halo 3, there was time to equip the Brutes (I imagine) and the Brutes started getting into commanding other units, although they obviously commanded better their fellow pack mates rather than other Covenant species, and it was shown when a fellow pack mate died, fellow Brutes or leaders would yell in dismay ''That was my lover!'' for example. They dont do this with the other Covenant soldiers.

The reversal in Reach I guess is simply for canonical reasons. If the Brutes started showing up in their Halo 3/ODST armor, people would start complaining and start calling out Bungie for breaking canon even further. It was easier to leave them very similar to how they were in Halo 2 and just let it flow like that into Halo 2. Although I did not like the physical changes to hairless rhinos. Brutes were supposed to be more Gorilla.

  • 10.13.2011 3:20 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

I always supposed we were seeing different clans of Brutes in Halo 2, 3, ODST and Reach.

  • 10.13.2011 3:22 PM PDT

I can't write my signature on a computer... silly goose!


Posted by: HipiO7
Religious fanatics can adapt quite swiftly to changes demanded. The Brutes pre Halo 2 were almost never in command of other Covenant units, which would make sense why they were always ''doing their thing'', the time from being one of the lower classes of the Covenant to the overthrowing the Elite's position dosent give time for the Brutes to get their armor with shields and such.

Come Halo 3, there was time to equip the Brutes (I imagine) and the Brutes started getting into commanding other units, although they obviously commanded better their fellow pack mates rather than other Covenant species, and it was shown when a fellow pack mate died, fellow Brutes or leaders would yell in dismay ''That was my lover!'' for example. They dont do this with the other Covenant soldiers.

The reversal in Reach I guess is simply for canonical reasons. If the Brutes started showing up in their Halo 3/ODST armor, people would start complaining and start calling out Bungie for breaking canon even further. It was easier to leave them very similar to how they were in Halo 2 and just let it flow like that into Halo 2. Although I did not like the physical changes to hairless rhinos. Brutes were supposed to be more Gorilla.


This is the best answer. In Halo Canon, chronologically speaking Brutes used to be 'inferiors' to the Elites, until sometime in Halo 3: ODST when the Covenant Civil War occurred. Then they gained all the power previously bestowed for the elites. Now the Brutes are the commanders of the battlefield, and that is why in Halo 3 they give the orders (and if you noticed, you're not fighting any elites in Halo 3). This also explains why Brute behavior becomes retrospective in Halo Reach: Because it takes place before the other games. Hope this helps a bit.

  • 10.13.2011 4:35 PM PDT

Halo 2 was rushed terribly. They couldn't get a spiker in the game in time so they made the Brute Plasma rifle, and they couldn't give them a mauler so they gave them HUMAN Shotguns.

Although the way they were portrayed in Halo 2 was the way I wished they stayed. Covered in hair, what was so hard about that? Why were they shaved clean in Halo: Reach? I've had it with the "they were in another clan" theory, that's completely bogus, the full force of the Covenant is attacking and you encounter them several times yet they are all shaved but when you face them in Halo 2, all of them have hair. So they all decided to grow out their hair?

Understandable, although without reason. Once tartarus is dead, some people on this forum said the prophets issued them armor and to shaven. Although Halo 3: ODST conflicts with this as they already had armor even before Regret's escape and their hair was gone. But wait, when you face the Brutes in Halo 2, why was their hair and armor not there?

Before ODST came out and rumors were around, and I saw the trailer, I wished they would go back to the Halo 2 roots and give them their hair. They failed. Sure they returned their weapon the Brute Plasma rifle, but that's it. They hardly changed their fighting style.

Honestly, I would have rather had Infinity Ward handle the brutes. They at least keep games consistent and look the same game after game(LOL).

Brutes were not explored as much as they could. They could have given them a book, their past on Doisac, how they were before their war. After the war and such. I want to know information concerning their war with the Elites, sure there are a few videos here and there but I want BOOKS.

I hope they get into this for Glasslands.

  • 10.13.2011 4:50 PM PDT

Generalizations.
Helping idiots hate other idiots since people have existed.

Great Schism would logically explain it all.

  • 10.13.2011 5:18 PM PDT

The Reason the Brutes are Halo 2sh in Halo Reach is because that time period is Pre-Schism. After the Schism the Brutes were required to fill the niche the Elites left vacant for both story and gameplay reasons and as such that is the reason they received shielding, tactics and "colorful" armor as you put it.

In that sense I think the look of Halo 2 Brutes should be disregarded, because both Halo Wars and Halo Reach retconned the Pre-Schism Brutes too be colorful and wear Halo 3-esque armor. but lack energy shielding.

  • 10.13.2011 5:31 PM PDT

Although a good deal of it can be due to the time constraints with publishing the game, uncertain directives, what have you, it could also be explained from a thematic view. The Brutes draw some very distinct parallels to our own species. They are primate-like and they are still fairly tribal with varying allegiances with deep conviction. The different appearances and battlefield tactics can be an indication of this. They are relatively intelligent but they can blunder and they're also capable of extreme violence.

I agree though, I wish there was a more concrete Brute mentality.

  • 10.13.2011 5:41 PM PDT

Ever sense Halo 2 I have been interested in the creatures like there back story more of it and i have also been interested in the flood what mysteries :D

  • 10.13.2011 5:48 PM PDT

Pretty much off topic with the subject but BUNGIE FTW!!!!!!!

  • 10.13.2011 5:51 PM PDT

XxXD3LuuX3 X luuC1d17YXxX

Any discrepancies with the Halo 2 brutes versus the others could be settled with the fact that they were Tartarus's hand picked pack, and he could dress them how ever he saw fit, that he would chose more traditional weapons and armor isn't that surprising considering how he dressed and what his weapon of choice was.

It seems like a lame cop out answer, until you realize that it really does make a lot of sense, that only his special unit dressed like that, while the Prophets manicured the rest in line with the standard dress code.

  • 10.13.2011 10:49 PM PDT
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Posted by: Makko Mace
Any discrepancies with the Halo 2 brutes versus the others could be settled with the fact that they were Tartarus's hand picked pack, and he could dress them how ever he saw fit, that he would chose more traditional weapons and armor isn't that surprising considering how he dressed and what his weapon of choice was.

It seems like a lame cop out answer, until you realize that it really does make a lot of sense, that only his special unit dressed like that, while the Prophets manicured the rest in line with the standard dress code.


It's still a bit of a stretch to say that every Brute MC encounters in High Charity was a member of Tartarus' clan.

  • 10.14.2011 3:23 AM PDT

Born to play Halo.

In Reach you can't really say they were shaved because if you look closely at a brute you can see they are wearing some kind of skin tight suit, and why they didn't have it in H2 maybe it was a different clan, or squad, maybe the brutes in reach were part of the the main forces and were ordered to dress differently than the other brutes.

Possibly in H2 the brutes weren't combat ready and didn't have the experience in commanding troops, and maybe that's why in a few months later in ODST and H3 they acted differently and wore more advanced armor, and were able to get the weapons they were accustomed to, because now they are combat ready and have the training and experience they need to command troops.

  • 10.14.2011 6:37 AM PDT

Corn, Oil, and Wine... We need more wine...

In Halo 2, all you see is Tartarus' clan. He was against the shielding and his pack was quite the muscle heads.

  • 10.14.2011 12:36 PM PDT

They come now... and they take us... the tide rises.

I suppose this is a consequence of the Greath Scism.
Like the Fall of Western Roman Empire, the Covenant Empire is without a military leader of reference. The Arbiter is gone, Tartarus and Maccabeus are death. In the same way of Odoacre or Stilicone, Tartarus and others Chieftain was the supreme leaders of the Covenant Army after the GS, but in this times of troubles and crisis, we can thinking the high military cadres of the Covenant are always on the field for combat and, many of those fall and the successors are appointed and fall more in the battlefield. Like this choices, the Jiralhanae race "adaps" itself at the necessity of the moment. Its only an opinion...

  • 10.15.2011 3:46 AM PDT

I would have liked to have seen all the Brutes with energy shields in Reach. And their physical apperance has changed as well. In Reach they seem smaller and they look like gorillas more than anything else.

  • 10.15.2011 8:27 AM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.

Halo 2 Brute Character Models (I want them to be fluffy and muscular, not hairless gorillas). Halo Reach Armor (Should be self explanatory). Halo 3 Weaponry/Vehicles (I liked the concept of the Brutes using their own weapons/vehicles. After all, for the most part that is what the Sangheili did). Halo 3:ODST game mechanics (Little bit of commanding, but not giving a damn what happens to their infantry). We have the perfect brute.

[Edited on 10.15.2011 11:26 AM PDT]

  • 10.15.2011 11:25 AM PDT