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Subject: Data Drop 5 and using the Long Night for RED FLAG

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: HipiO7
Posted by: Gamer Whale
Posted by: HipiO7
Posted by: Gamer Whale
Posted by: HipiO7
And of course they'd have to go through the hangar, but that would only be in Corvettes, where a Scarab sure as hell does not fit. The boarding party dosent have to go into the hangars of super carriers, it's not a priority path.
So the covies in LNoS would be fine with a corvette without radio contact searching for an airlock instead of docking?


I wouldint say without radio contact, either. I'm sure if the end plan was to take Solace, the UNSC attack force would have had some program that could respond and hack in to Covenant systems to help the attack.
Maybe, but they'd be still looking for that airlock... I don't see what story they could use for that... (Broken hovering equipment would cause a repair team in dropship, 'cause the corvette doesn't seem to have some connecting airlock-thing.)


It could always burn an airlock into the ship, similar to how in Contact Harvest the Jackals boarded the human ships.

Obviously after deactivating sensors in that area of the ship, or feeding them junk bytes.
Maybe, but there'd stll be banshee/seraph patrols...

  • 10.15.2011 1:05 PM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

Posted by: Gamer Whale
Maybe, but there'd stll be banshee/seraph patrols...


A very real possibility.

But personally, I dont think the Solace would need any patrols since it was no question the biggest ship in the Epsilon Eridanus system. Nothing would be stupid enough to attack something like that, unless it were a small fleet.

  • 10.15.2011 1:08 PM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: HipiO7
Posted by: Gamer Whale
Maybe, but there'd stll be banshee/seraph patrols...


A very real possibility.

But personally, I dont think the Solace would need any patrols since it was no question the biggest ship in the Epsilon Eridanus system. Nothing would be stupid enough to attack something like that, unless it were a small fleet.
I doubt they they'd neglect standard patrols, and besides, when in sci-fi you see a big warship without fighter escort?

  • 10.15.2011 1:13 PM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

Posted by: Gamer Whale
Posted by: HipiO7
Posted by: Gamer Whale
Maybe, but there'd stll be banshee/seraph patrols...


A very real possibility.

But personally, I dont think the Solace would need any patrols since it was no question the biggest ship in the Epsilon Eridanus system. Nothing would be stupid enough to attack something like that, unless it were a small fleet.
I doubt they they'd neglect standard patrols, and besides, when in sci-fi you see a big warship without fighter escort?


Normally in other sci fi's, carriers dont have the weaponry an Assault Carrier has.

Radars and Ladars would pick up anything incomming. Unless they knew they were in hostile territory (which the Solace was not, since it was deep in Covenant Controlled Space), they wouldint need the escort, and could deploy them to help other units throughout the system.

  • 10.15.2011 1:16 PM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: HipiO7
Normally in other sci fi's, carriers dont have the weaponry an Assault Carrier has.

Radars and Ladars would pick up anything incomming. Unless they knew they were in hostile territory (which the Solace was not, since it was deep in Covenant Controlled Space), they wouldint need the escort, and could deploy them to help other units throughout the system.
They were next to an enemy planet...

  • 10.15.2011 1:19 PM PDT

Noble 6 is a Hyper Lethal Vector.

/thread

  • 10.15.2011 1:25 PM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: GeneralRafa
Noble 6 is a Hyper Lethal Vector.

/thread
Even though he is, in the end he got cornered and overwhelmed, same thing could happen in this scenario.

[Edited on 10.15.2011 1:29 PM PDT]

  • 10.15.2011 1:29 PM PDT


Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: GeneralRafa
Noble 6 is a Hyper Lethal Vector.

/thread
Even though he is, in the end he got cornered and overwhelmed, same thing could happen in this scenario.

What I think is being misinterpreted by the OP is that apparently Noble Team couldn't capture the Supercarrier. That's right, because they didn't. They captured a much smaller, minor ship, a Corvette, and outfitted a slipspace bomb to it and used it to destroy the Supercarrier.

  • 10.15.2011 1:34 PM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: GeneralRafa

Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: GeneralRafa
Noble 6 is a Hyper Lethal Vector.

/thread
Even though he is, in the end he got cornered and overwhelmed, same thing could happen in this scenario.

What I think is being misinterpreted by the OP is that apparently Noble Team couldn't capture the Supercarrier. That's right, because they didn't. They captured a much smaller, minor ship, a Corvette, and outfitted a slipspace bomb to it and used it to destroy the Supercarrier.
OP is saying that UPPERCUT's objective couldn't have been changed on the fly to boarding operation, or what wre you saying?

  • 10.15.2011 1:56 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.

As many have noted above, there is quite a hefty amount of precedence in the realm of a small team boarding and securing a large Covenant vessel for whatever purposes are needed. Had more resources been committed, such as the actual Red Flag assets for example, it would not be surprising to see it get captured and used as was planned.

In the end however, the viability of using the LNoS as the ship of choice for Red Flag is ultimately a moot point. As far as the S-IIs were aware, their directives to kidnap the leadership elements of the Covenant to broker a truce would accomplish nothing.

Unless ONI was holding back even more information and had deeper ulterior motives, they're severely underestimating the religious zeal the Covenant was motivated upon given Red Flag's objectives.

The key to destroying the Covenant was undermining their beliefs. In spite of the deaths of Regret and Mercy, the Covenant who still believed in the Great Journey still continued onwards to reach the path to salvation. Had Truth died (prior to the schism) there would likely be no difference as well. Indeed, consider what could be observed in Ghosts of Onyx. Those Elites who no longer sided with the prophets still possessed faith in their beliefs regarding the Forerunners to the extent that they continued to eradicate any humans they come into contact with.

The events at Alpha and Delta Halo combined with Truth's personal ambition would provide the basis to unravel the Covenant in this regard. And while sure, Truth's preference for the Brutes (and his orders to have them wipe out the Elites) helped create a divide between the Elites by giving them further reason to separate from the Covenant besides religious reasons, it just becomes all the more evident that Red Flag would have done nothing to truly shake up the Covenant by merely "kidnapping a High Prophet".

  • 10.16.2011 2:56 AM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

Posted by: Gamer Whale
Posted by: HipiO7
Normally in other sci fi's, carriers dont have the weaponry an Assault Carrier has.

Radars and Ladars would pick up anything incomming. Unless they knew they were in hostile territory (which the Solace was not, since it was deep in Covenant Controlled Space), they wouldint need the escort, and could deploy them to help other units throughout the system.
They were next to an enemy planet...


That literally had no orbital defenses on that side of the planet.

  • 10.16.2011 3:52 AM PDT

Oops. I think I just lost your mind.

OP here. What I am saying is that at the time that UPPERCUT was carried out, the UNSC on Reach did not have the sufficient personnel or equipment to capture the Long Night of Solace.
In several threads I have seen it suggested that ONI could simply repurpose Noble's mission to a capture. The case that I'm trying to make is that Reach at the time did not have the resources to capture the carrier. That's why uppercut was carried out. They had no nukes, only a few frigates, and no ODPs. That's why Kat had to get creative with UPPERCUT; the plan was patched together from what was available at the time: Sabres and a slipspace drive. If a more conventional option was available, it likely would have been used. If that more conventional option was available, it could likely be used to capture the Long Night. But it wasn't. Capture of the carrier at that time was simply not an option due to evident lack of resources.

  • 10.16.2011 8:26 AM PDT

Oops. I think I just lost your mind.

And for those saying it could be captured with the addition of even a platoon of ODSTs, remember this.

There are likely still thousands to tens of thousands of Covies on the craft. They have no artillery or air support, but they have the advantage of numbers and supplies. The humans would have to bring everything with them, the Covenant have a resupply station that's outfitted for a month-long, planet-wide campaign. It would become an unwinnable attrition war on the Covenant's home turf.

The carrier would absolutely HAVE to be captured by highly unconventional means, like the capture of the Ascendant Justice. The difference is the Ascendant Justice was outfitted with about 5% of the personnel who were far less effective in combat, and it took Cortana to hack the covenant networks. I believe this had never been done before (hacking Covie ship), and there are few if any besides Cortana who could do it. Reach did not have Cortana available at this point; arguably she could have been pulled from Halsey and put on this mission, but I doubt her importance would warrant her repurposing for this, especially considering the chance of failure. She could only pull it off on the Ascendant Justice because the ship was near-empty in the first place, and a pitched battle inside the ship was unnecessary. Add that element and I doubt even Cortana could do it, which is why the logical solution was a dependable method of blowing the thing sky-high rather than risking everything on a gamble.

[Edited on 10.16.2011 8:40 AM PDT]

  • 10.16.2011 8:40 AM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: HipiO7
That literally had no orbital defenses on that side of the planet.
I'd still doubt they wouldn't have few fighters around, and if they didn't, they'd probably send few to escort the corvette.

EDIT: And to OP, as I've said in this thread, if they tried to get in with the corvette, they'd be facing heavy armor and air support, unless they look for an airlock and hope no-one notices anything.

[Edited on 10.16.2011 8:54 AM PDT]

  • 10.16.2011 8:50 AM PDT

Oops. I think I just lost your mind.


Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: HipiO7
That literally had no orbital defenses on that side of the planet.
I'd still doubt they wouldn't have few fighters around, and if they didn't, they'd probably send few to escort the corvette.

EDIT: And to OP, as I've said in this thread, if they tried to get in with the corvette, they'd be facing heavy armor and air support, unless they look for an airlock and hope no-one notices anything.

I will agree with you on armor and possibly air units if they boarded a hangar. From what we've seen of Battlecruisers, they have huge staging areas, so by logical extension Supercarriers' and Assault Carriers' would be far larger. Was a Carrier's main bay ever given a specific size in the books?

[Edited on 10.16.2011 12:29 PM PDT]

  • 10.16.2011 12:28 PM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: Irongam3r

Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: HipiO7
That literally had no orbital defenses on that side of the planet.
I'd still doubt they wouldn't have few fighters around, and if they didn't, they'd probably send few to escort the corvette.

EDIT: And to OP, as I've said in this thread, if they tried to get in with the corvette, they'd be facing heavy armor and air support, unless they look for an airlock and hope no-one notices anything.

I will agree with you on armor and possibly air units if they boarded a hangar. From what we've seen of Battlecruisers, they have huge staging areas, so by logical extension Supercarriers' and Assault Carriers' would be far larger. Was a Carrier's main bay ever given a specific size in the books?
Well, here's hangar of an assault carrier with a UNSC frigate in it. Phantoms and banshees flying around. Given that Supercarrier is massive when compared to that, a lot of stuff can fit in. Like scarabs, as I've said.

  • 10.16.2011 12:58 PM PDT

Oops. I think I just lost your mind.


Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: Irongam3r

Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: HipiO7
That literally had no orbital defenses on that side of the planet.
I'd still doubt they wouldn't have few fighters around, and if they didn't, they'd probably send few to escort the corvette.

EDIT: And to OP, as I've said in this thread, if they tried to get in with the corvette, they'd be facing heavy armor and air support, unless they look for an airlock and hope no-one notices anything.

I will agree with you on armor and possibly air units if they boarded a hangar. From what we've seen of Battlecruisers, they have huge staging areas, so by logical extension Supercarriers' and Assault Carriers' would be far larger. Was a Carrier's main bay ever given a specific size in the books?
Well, here's hangar of an assault carrier with a UNSC frigate in it. Phantoms and banshees flying around. Given that Supercarrier is massive when compared to that, a lot of stuff can fit in. Like scarabs, as I've said.
Thanks for the Shadow of Intent scene, forgot about that.

  • 10.16.2011 1:12 PM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?

Posted by: Irongam3r

Posted by: Gamer Whale
Well, here's hangar of an assault carrier with a UNSC frigate in it. Phantoms and banshees flying around. Given that Supercarrier is massive when compared to that, a lot of stuff can fit in. Like scarabs, as I've said.
Thanks for the Shadow of Intent scene, forgot about that.
No problem. Glad I could help.

  • 10.17.2011 10:03 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Irongam3r

Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: Irongam3r

Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: HipiO7
That literally had no orbital defenses on that side of the planet.
I'd still doubt they wouldn't have few fighters around, and if they didn't, they'd probably send few to escort the corvette.

EDIT: And to OP, as I've said in this thread, if they tried to get in with the corvette, they'd be facing heavy armor and air support, unless they look for an airlock and hope no-one notices anything.

I will agree with you on armor and possibly air units if they boarded a hangar. From what we've seen of Battlecruisers, they have huge staging areas, so by logical extension Supercarriers' and Assault Carriers' would be far larger. Was a Carrier's main bay ever given a specific size in the books?
Well, here's hangar of an assault carrier with a UNSC frigate in it. Phantoms and banshees flying around. Given that Supercarrier is massive when compared to that, a lot of stuff can fit in. Like scarabs, as I've said.
Thanks for the Shadow of Intent scene, forgot about that.


There shouldn't really be too much doubt that Scarabs can be stored in Hanger Bays awaiting deployment, but I'm curious if anyone has even considered at this point the problems associated with having a Scarab firing its main cannon in the hanger of a ship in space. The same can be said of a Wraith.

And while yes a Wraith can be seen deployed in a Corvette's hanger firing unimpeded with no ill effect on the ship's deck with its plasma mortar, one should also keep in mind that the gameplay effect of plasma is not onto par with its effects in the Haloverse itself. Goes double for the Scarab.

So really the only viable heavy firepower that can be expected would be that coming from banshees, and even then they would likely have to refrain from using their fuel rods.

There's just far too many issues with using heavier grade ordinance inside a vessel despite how large LNoS is. More so if a Corvette were to crash in one or even explode. A hanger may not be as vital as say a ship's bridge, but due to its nature as a hanger there's a very large chance that there are fuel tanks and munitions among other things that can create quite a nasty chain reaction. At best it can create a logistical nightmare when trying to efficiently deploy troops from that point onwards should the hanger alone be compromised. At worst, well...seeing as how there is no cross section of the ship, there's no telling what else would be affected immediately if at all should the main hanger go up in flames.

  • 10.17.2011 10:39 AM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

Posted by: StealthSlasher2
There shouldn't really be too much doubt that Scarabs can be stored in Hanger Bays awaiting deployment, but I'm curious if anyone has even considered at this point the problems associated with having a Scarab firing its main cannon in the hanger of a ship in space. The same can be said of a Wraith.

And while yes a Wraith can be seen deployed in a Corvette's hanger firing unimpeded with no ill effect on the ship's deck with its plasma mortar, one should also keep in mind that the gameplay effect of plasma is not onto par with its effects in the Haloverse itself. Goes double for the Scarab.

So really the only viable heavy firepower that can be expected would be that coming from banshees, and even then they would likely have to refrain from using their fuel rods.

There's just far too many issues with using heavier grade ordinance inside a vessel despite how large LNoS is. More so if a Corvette were to crash in one or even explode. A hanger may not be as vital as say a ship's bridge, but due to its nature as a hanger there's a very large chance that there are fuel tanks and munitions among other things that can create quite a nasty chain reaction. At best it can create a logistical nightmare when trying to efficiently deploy troops from that point onwards should the hanger alone be compromised. At worst, well...seeing as how there is no cross section of the ship, there's no telling what else would be affected immediately if at all should the main hanger go up in flames.


Exactly. You cant just fire these things inside a a spacecraft. And much less a Scarab, which will most defiantly burn though the ships heavy armor.

Then again, there is no promise that all the Scarabs will be manned and ''turned on'' when the Spartans landed in the hangar. I highly doubt that just because Scarabs are made essentially giant hunters, dosent have to mean they are active 24/7. Or the Corvette could be used to crash into the Scarabs in the initial landing, thus completely wrecking them.

And if not, the UNSC attack force just finds the switch and vents all the atmosphere from the hangar and watches everything fly out or die in asphyxiation, even Scarabs. The taking of the hangar is a lot easier than most would take. The Spartan's could take full advantage of the intial confusion produced by the crashing of a Corvette in there, and wouldint give time for the Ship Commander to come with a efficient solution on the short term, allowing the UNSC a foothold on the ship.

  • 10.17.2011 11:02 AM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: StealthSlasher2
There shouldn't really be too much doubt that Scarabs can be stored in Hanger Bays awaiting deployment, but I'm curious if anyone has even considered at this point the problems associated with having a Scarab firing its main cannon in the hanger of a ship in space. The same can be said of a Wraith.

And while yes a Wraith can be seen deployed in a Corvette's hanger firing unimpeded with no ill effect on the ship's deck with its plasma mortar, one should also keep in mind that the gameplay effect of plasma is not onto par with its effects in the Haloverse itself. Goes double for the Scarab.

So really the only viable heavy firepower that can be expected would be that coming from banshees, and even then they would likely have to refrain from using their fuel rods.

There's just far too many issues with using heavier grade ordinance inside a vessel despite how large LNoS is. More so if a Corvette were to crash in one or even explode. A hanger may not be as vital as say a ship's bridge, but due to its nature as a hanger there's a very large chance that there are fuel tanks and munitions among other things that can create quite a nasty chain reaction. At best it can create a logistical nightmare when trying to efficiently deploy troops from that point onwards should the hanger alone be compromised. At worst, well...seeing as how there is no cross section of the ship, there's no telling what else would be affected immediately if at all should the main hanger go up in flames.
Those are good points, but I'd say that atleast the floor could be reinforced, due to possible crash-landings and stuff, so I'd say they could shoot, if there's not big containers of flammable stuff around... And boarders could shoot those tanks of flammable stuff. =P

  • 10.17.2011 11:06 AM PDT

Oops. I think I just lost your mind.

Honestly, I don't doubt that the hangar would be hard to fight in. I also doubt it would be full, and I doubt that all the armor in it would be battle-ready.
But regardless, it's too large a risk unless the Spartans had some serious armor of their own (or a bomb). I think it would make more sense to enter through some blown-out maintenance corridor under a deck turret or something.

  • 10.17.2011 5:22 PM PDT


Posted by: Irongam3r
Posted by: Spartan 100
Oh they most certainly could! It's pretty obvious if you sk me.

They were so trigger happy so they decided to use the slipspace bomb.


Could you explain how they could have captured the Long Night, given their resources and intelligence?


The objective of RED FLAG required the majority of the S-II's if I remember correctly. They never wanted Noble to do it. I think the document implies that the UNSC is so compartmentalized that by the time ONI learned of Noble's intentions, it was too late. UPPERCUT was such a hair-brained scheme, how could ONI have anticipated it?

Could Noble board and clear out an entire Super Carrier? I don't think so... not Jorge and 6 at least. But the majority of The S-II's? Absolutely. With minimal to no casualties too. Especially if they got Cortana into the ship's mainframe. She could give them unparalleled info about enemy locations.

  • 10.17.2011 5:35 PM PDT

yas334229812

Not only that she could clear out sections by removing air from certain parts of the ship even hacking comms to get many covies to the hanger when the human forces were in a safer position and venting the hanger into space by opening the airlocks. Its effective. Also this could neutralize any vehicle of escaping and being used.

Remember many S2's have entered ships. All you need is one group to enter get Cortana on the ships network and she will effectively neutralize most forces. Even stranding covenant forces so that it is an easier job for the S2's to accomplish. This could help make a safe passage for other S2's to enter.

Also capturing the Control Room would also give them the upper hand as they could have an easier control over it and be able to neutralize the more dangerous enemies. Also removing any chance of help being called for or allowing other ships to attack.

Also weapons are sometimes kept at the hanger but they are usually kept at weapon cache's with high security in case of mutiny.

Main objectives would include:
Capture the Hanger Bay
Get Cortana on the Ships network
Capture Control Room
Capture Engine Room

Side objectives:
Neutralize enemy
Remove all vehicles from Hanger Bay

Cortana's Objective:
Hack into system
Lower security measures
Take out Communications
Shut down Slipspace and Engine system
Take out weapons system
Decrease numbers of Covenant forces to and from destination of Spartans
Keep tabs of Covenant movements
Isolate Covenant Forces for easy neutralization for Spartans
Get weapons and shields online to take out any hostile Covenant Ship

Cortana's Side Objective:
Get as many Covenant forces into the hanger bay by pretending its a boarding party then open all airlocks
Neutralize all hostility in hanger bay to allow for ODST Drop into Hanger Bay
Help out in landing party of UNSC forces in Hanger Bay
Contact UNSC forces for support in taking out all Covenant ship
Fill ship with false information i.e. keeping Spartans under cover

ONI Objectives:
Take out communication array between ships.
Take out battle network.
Create a silence zone so that no message can come and go from area.
Send decoy for safe entrance of Spartan personel into ship.
Lure as many Covenant forces as possible out of ship for land battle.

ONI number one Objective.
Get coordinates of High Charity
Get coordinates of any other important targets

With these info on High Charity they can send ship with as much fire power possible into High Charity with a suicide mission. Ex. Fill one ship with as many NOVA Bombs able to be placed with timed firing, and release all across the area neutralizing as many ships as can be deemed possible.

This could be used to support an infiltration team that could land and capture key objectives like prophets and engineers, and ONI personnel for taking as much data as possible. May lead to capture of the Forerunner ship.

Some more could be added. But if these things went according to plan well the ship could be easily taken and not only that human forces could be deployed including ODST's from ships that are nearby. You could have a human army in there.

Remember all ONI needs from this mission are coordinates of High Charity and data on size etc, and poof they could send a NOVA Bomb with enough explosive power to do enough damage taking out many high profile targets even damaging it. Could buy more time than anything else.
Also could give way to landing party. Just a whole bunch of ships landing immediately and dropping everyone off even Spartans. Lead to capture of forerunner ship biggest blow, that could be used against them and release of medicent bias which could be a blow to the religious ideology of the Covenant.

  • 10.17.2011 7:03 PM PDT

yas334229812

Overall i believe there is more to this mission than what is shown.

  • 10.18.2011 6:37 PM PDT

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