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Subject: A discussion on our moderators and their consistency.


Posted by: Skibur
Stop caring...

Trust me, it's so nice.


I've throught about it.

I made this thread as a last step before I really do just stop caring, and just deal with any bans that might come my way.

  • 10.25.2011 8:09 AM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

Individuals acting independantly of one another making judgements that are not consistent with the judgements of other independant individuals? What madness is this?

Although there are set rules, the interpretation of them and actions based off of them by the mods will always be slightly different. They're not a hive mind and they will indirectly conflict with one another now and then. I don't know if there really is a universally accepted definition of everything that is and is not accepted by every single moderator because there's always going to be gray areas where it comes down to what they personally think about it.

In short, beats me.

[Edited on 10.25.2011 8:16 AM PDT]

  • 10.25.2011 8:15 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

I understand and empathize with you, coolmike. I am going to be blunt here, though, and I want you to know it's not personal -- this is a more general statement regarding these kinds of threads.

I know a lot of people in this thread have attempted to distinguish the differences between your thread and Recon's, and why one thread might have been more or less deserving of a warning than another. The fact is that in every practical sense of looking at these two threads from a rule enforcement perspective, there is no difference. They are both in that gray area and both discussing "adult" topics without being explicit or vulgar.

This, obviously, is not the first time that somebody has noted a moderator inconsistency. There have been many examples far more "inflammatory" than this one, from spam threads created by or participated in by moderators, to flaming by moderators, to somewhat blatant trolling, to other examples. Therefore, your question is a good one and one that's been asked before: how can you get guidance on where that line lies within the gray area when one thread that gets a warning is indistinguishable from another thread created by a moderator?

The answer is: you can't. Stop looking to moderators' posts for "guidance." If you want to completely avoid warnings and bans, stop posting in gray areas. If you want to test the line, follow Skibur's advice and stop caring when you get warned/banned for posts in a gray area.

The fact is that we have never asked you to look to moderators as examples or paragons of what to post. And when you see Forum Ninjas posting less than when they were regular members, it is exactly this kind of scrutiny that causes it. For example, I personally try to steer well clear of gray areas to avoid exactly this kind of issue, which is why I almost never create threads or participate in anything but the most benign discussions anymore. Ironically, as a result, you would get no helpful guidance from my own posting history as to where the "line" is in the gray areas between appropriate and inappropriate.

But Forum Ninjas are members too, and sometimes they want to post in the gray area. Sometimes they feel that they want to be able to participate in this Community whether or not they are scrutinized, but when they post in the gray areas, it most certainly is not a license or "precedent" allowing those threads forevermore.

Any post that approaches the line runs the risk of a warning or ban. I don't see how this could ever possibly be any other way, and you probably wouldn't want it to be any other way. We relaxed the forum rules to allow a bit more leniency in how you post, but this certainly was not a license to post whatever you want. The public forums can be an interesting place for discussion, but if you want to post in gray areas, use a private group. Anybody who has been around here for a while knows or should know to do this. Ask my friends who are in my private groups with me -- I post ten times more in private groups than the public forums, and I talk about all kinds of things.

In the public forums, there is no need to "test the line." There is no need to create Community Forum threads to try to figure out where the line is. There is no need to post in the gray areas. And there is most certainly no need to post about sex in a public forum inhabited mostly by 14- to 17-year-old boys who tend to respond to sex threads with internet memes like "stick it in her pooper" or "surprise buttsecks."

I know that some people are somewhat singlemindedly obsessed with posting about controversial or adult topics in the public forums. And I have heard the insistence of some people that they want to start "intelligent discussions" on mature topics such as religion, politics, and sex in the Flood. And all I can think is, "haven't you ever SEEN the Flood?" It's not going to happen. It will never happen. You are not going to be the one person who is suddenly, after 10 years of completely immature rabble, be able to make the Flood a place where these things can be intelligently and maturely discussed.


Except for a few types of rulebreaking where we have established guidelines, moderators are asked only to be consistent with themselves. For me, I will continue locking any thread in the Flood Forum or elsewhere that contains "adult" topics of discussion. The public forums here are primarily for video game discussion. Anything else that Bungie allows to be discussed here should be reasonable and family-friendly. The standard is not "do I want my 12-year-old daughter to read this." The standard for me is "do I want anybody of ANY AGE to read this." Bungie has repeatedly expressed that it wants its forums to be a place where community members of all ages are welcome, and I try to uphold that with the responsibilities I've been asked to take on.

So with all of that said, I still think your question is a good one. My answer to you may sound harsh but I promise that it is not dismissive; it is true and honest advice that I personally also follow. Stay out of the gray areas and discuss those kinds of subjects in your private groups where it will be far better received and more intelligently discussed.

Moderator inconsistency in the gray areas of posting is nearly impossible to avoid. Instead of trying to get the moderators to perform an impossible feat, perhaps the easier solution is to change the way you post.

[Edited on 10.25.2011 9:39 AM PDT]

  • 10.25.2011 9:37 AM PDT


Posted by: Recon Number 54
We know that we can't and don't agree with each other 100%, we know that we can't march in lockstep. I try to think of us as an example of what our membership can be. Different people that while we don't share each others views, we accept, tolerate and respect each other.


Law enforcers IRL don't always agree with each other either. One cop might start pulling people over for going 7 MPH above the limit. Another might start pulling others over going 15. But if a cop is caught by a camera or even another cop, he dosen't get out of a ticket, just like anyone else.

If you're an example "of what our membership can be", why are you posting things that could get a regular member banned? Clearly, by posting news stories you knoiw could get people banned, you eithr do want special priveleges or you're not worried about being warned/ banned.

Is this simply another example of "you have no rights"? Should I (and everyone else) simply keep posting as we're posting, and just deal with any bans or warnings we might incur?

What I'm asking is, should we just go with our gut, and then worry about the consequences?

  • 10.25.2011 9:44 AM PDT


Posted by: x Foman123 x
You are not going to be the one person who is suddenly, after 10 years of completely immature rabble, be able to make the Flood a place where these things can be intelligently and maturely discussed.


I don't want to try to singlehandedly change The Flood. And my thread wasn't about sex. It was about wether the skydivers should be charged with a crime.

Did you lock Recon's thread?

Would you lock a similar thread by Recon if you saw it on the front page?

If not, then you aren't being consistent with yourself, like you are asked.

  • 10.25.2011 9:54 AM PDT
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Posted by: DEATHPIMP72
Anyone but Foman. He smells like cheese.

Posted by: coolmike699
I don't want to try to singlehandedly change The Flood. And my thread wasn't about sex. It was about wether the skydivers should be charged with a crime.

Did you lock Recon's thread?

Would you lock a similar thread by Recon if you saw it on the front page?

If not, then you aren't being consistent with yourself, like you are asked.

Don't be silly; obviously your thread was about two skydivers having sex. Asking a more generalized question at the end of the OP doesn't make it any less so.

To answer your rhetorical question, I don't lock threads made by Bungie employees or other Forum Ninjas unless something has gone severely wrong (such as account theft). If I have a problem with the way they're posting, I take it up with them privately. And whether or not I have taken up any particular post with another Forum Ninja is not a matter that I discuss in public. That's being consistent with myself.

Whether or not I do, by the way, is also completely irrelevant to how you should be posting in light of what I just said in my last post.

[Edited on 10.25.2011 10:05 AM PDT]

  • 10.25.2011 10:05 AM PDT
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I'm trying to become an '04, but it's not working too well."


Posted by: x Foman123 x
Don't be silly; obviously your thread was about two skydivers having sex.
There's nothing silly about that at all!

  • 10.25.2011 10:10 AM PDT

Known by some, but not by all.
Soffish: Do not eat!
TWP Assistant Director.

The moderators here are not Robots, except El Roboto. He is clearly a robot. They are perfect though. Perfectly human and do human things. They do the best they can is what I am saying. In six months, this won't matter.

~Delta

  • 10.25.2011 10:10 AM PDT

Rarity FTW

I've heard that Foman has the consistency of moldy cheese.

To be serious, it really points to the fact that the mods are simply members of the community, albeit with significantly less "fear" of being banned.

[Edited on 10.25.2011 10:27 AM PDT]

  • 10.25.2011 10:12 AM PDT
Subject: Please lock.
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The End

‘The conscious is cancerous if allowed to linger’

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."

Posted by: coolmike699
Posted by: Recon Number 54
We know that we can't and don't agree with each other 100%, we know that we can't march in lockstep. I try to think of us as an example of what our membership can be. Different people that while we don't share each others views, we accept, tolerate and respect each other.
Law enforcers IRL don't always agree with each other either. One cop might start pulling people over for going 7 MPH above the limit. Another might start pulling others over going 15. But if a cop is caught by a camera or even another cop, he dosen't get out of a ticket, just like anyone else.

If you're an example "of what our membership can be", why are you posting things that could get a regular member banned? Clearly, by posting news stories you knoiw could get people banned, you eithr do want special priveleges or you're not worried about being warned/ banned.

Is this simply another example of "you have no rights"? Should I (and everyone else) simply keep posting as we're posting, and just deal with any bans or warnings we might incur?

What I'm asking is, should we just go with our gut, and then worry about the consequences?
You're trying to quantify moderation when the discussion in this thread has made clear that it is not black and white, or 'measurable'; there is a grey area which is subject to interpretation. As a member it is your responsibility to use good sense and post within what you consider an acceptable interpretation of the rules. A moderator's responsibility can be to help refine this, while also empathising with the member in question. A warning might 'incur', but a ban is highly unlikely, unless the offense is considered an 'obvious' 'unacceptable' interpretation of the rules (these are all ambiguous terms, hence the apostrophes).


The moderation team is not perfect, and its interpretations of various rules do vary. We were appointed because it was felt we have a good grasp of acceptable conduct that would, on the whole, benefit the site. If there is a dispute you have my word that it is discussed either privately or within HFCS, so that we may better align our interpretations.

[Edited on 10.25.2011 3:55 PM PDT]

  • 10.25.2011 10:14 AM PDT
Subject: A discussion on our moderators and their consistency.
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R.I.P. DeathPimp. Never Ending Respect.

"Posted by: Kickimanjaro
I'm trying to become an '04, but it's not working too well."


Posted by: coolcor13
I've heard that Foman has the consistancy of moldy cheese.
Naw, that's A Ghuta.

  • 10.25.2011 10:15 AM PDT

We're concerned

Cafe|MLP: FiM|Bnet Regulars|FCAW
Got a question, comment, or concern? PM me.

The way I see it, this is one of those "Do as I say, not as I do" things...


Such is the life of bungie.net

  • 10.25.2011 10:37 AM PDT

Hi I'm RT and I like to argue!

Posted by: snipe champpppp
The way I see it, this is one of those "Do as I say, not as I do" things...


Such is life
FTFY.

  • 10.25.2011 12:13 PM PDT

What a hipster.

What happened to the robots I ordered?

  • 10.25.2011 12:39 PM PDT

Posted by: FALSE R3ALITYx
Bricypoo's custom user title = Ultra Lame Thread Maker


Posted by: True Underdog
Only after we ban Bricypoo.

I really am not trying to bring this off topic, but I lol'd at this. Cops get away with a lot of stuff because they are "cops". Of course where I am from we have... quite a few "dirty cops" if you know what I mean.


Posted by: coolmike699
Law enforcers IRL don't always agree with each other either. One cop might start pulling people over for going 7 MPH above the limit. Another might start pulling others over going 15. But if a cop is caught by a camera or even another cop, he dosen't get out of a ticket, just like anyone else.

  • 10.25.2011 12:46 PM PDT


Posted by: BRADEN OWNZ
Different mods = different judgements.


But just like in the legal system, the real legal system, theres supposed to be a fair interpretation of every law, that every judge follows. Mods are the judges here, they cant bend the rules just because they have the power. no one is above the law, and the law SHOULD be equally above everyone, including the mods.

  • 10.25.2011 2:02 PM PDT

Moderators, like you and I, are not homogeneous.

For instance: Crayons are homogeneous. Moderators are not.

  • 10.25.2011 2:24 PM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

Posted by: IHaveTURRETS JR
Moderators, like you and I, are not homogeneous.

For instance: Crayons are homogeneous. Moderators are not.

So we're not homos, we're monochromatic and we're not geniuses. Crayons are smarter but they are ghey?

  • 10.25.2011 2:27 PM PDT

Posted by: WolfmanMaverick
You people have just sent my sides into orbit. A bunch of MLG try hards sucking the dick of some supposed pro half the thread hasn't even heard of. Classic.

Hey kids. This guy is onto something.
Posted by: Skibur
Stop caring...

Trust me, it's so nice.

  • 10.25.2011 2:28 PM PDT


Posted by: Recon Number 54
Posted by: IHaveTURRETS JR
Moderators, like you and I, are not homogeneous.

For instance: Crayons are homogeneous. Moderators are not.

So we're not homos, we're monochromatic and we're not geniuses. Crayons are smarter but they are -blam!-?


Time to ban yourself again.


You did the other time, aren't you consistent with yourself?

  • 10.25.2011 2:29 PM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

Posted by: coolmike699
Posted by: Recon Number 54
Posted by: IHaveTURRETS JR
Moderators, like you and I, are not homogeneous.

For instance: Crayons are homogeneous. Moderators are not.

So we're not homos, we're monochromatic and we're not geniuses. Crayons are smarter but they are -blam!-?


Time to ban yourself again.


You did the other time, aren't you consistent with yourself?

If you must know, I gave myself a very sternly worded warning and I think that I took it to heart. Of course, those warnings are between me and myself and not really anyone else's concern.

  • 10.25.2011 2:32 PM PDT
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Laughs, opinions and information is what keeps the B.net going. Moderators are probably the best "chefs" around there, It's a shame that they don't get to feed the B.net.

Posted by: x Foman123 x
...when you see Forum Ninjas posting less than when they were regular members, it is exactly this kind of scrutiny that causes it...

  • 10.25.2011 2:34 PM PDT


Posted by: Recon Number 54
Posted by: coolmike699
Posted by: Recon Number 54
Posted by: IHaveTURRETS JR
Moderators, like you and I, are not homogeneous.

For instance: Crayons are homogeneous. Moderators are not.

So we're not homos, we're monochromatic and we're not geniuses. Crayons are smarter but they are -blam!-?


Time to ban yourself again.


You did the other time, aren't you consistent with yourself?

If you must know, I gave myself a very sternly worded warning and I think that I took it to heart. Of course, those warnings are between me and myself and not really anyone else's concern.


Man, this is discouraging.

You're in charge, you make the rules. I guess it's time for me to accept that and get over it.

I don't have anything else to say about this that hasn't already been covered. Please lock it.

I hope that you can see why bypassing the filter and breaking the rules in a thread about mods breaking the rules seems like you're simply mocking me now.

[Edited on 10.25.2011 2:37 PM PDT]

  • 10.25.2011 2:35 PM PDT

All this over a -blam!- warning?

Guess what: We're human.

  • 10.25.2011 2:38 PM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

Posted by: coolmike699
Man, this is discouraging.

You're in charge, you make the rules. I guess it's time for me to accept that and get over it.

I don't have anything else to say about this that hasn't already been covered. Please lock it.

Seriously?

I thought that you were being light-hearted in response to what I believe was an overt and clearly poor attempt at humor and I was responding in kind. You were being serious?

My apologies. I thought that I was lightening the mood and that you were going along with it.

  • 10.25.2011 2:39 PM PDT

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