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This topic has moved here: Subject: Is glasslands an intriguing story, worth-reading? (No spoilers please)
  • Subject: Is glasslands an intriguing story, worth-reading? (No spoilers please)
Subject: Is glasslands an intriguing story, worth-reading? (No spoilers please)

Vrrin Vrrin, yeah here I come.


Posted by: antony X1000
I haven't read the book myself, but from what I've heard it changes a lot of the characters personalities significantly.


I gotta get that book

  • 10.28.2011 3:48 AM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

Any validity the Insurrectionnisits had was lost when they detonated a nuclear warhead in a mining setelment, or killed several thousand people in a cruise ship, or resorted to bombing targets. For all their talk, a surprising number of their attacks occurred on the outer colonies and killed many innocent civilians.

  • 10.28.2011 4:16 AM PDT

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Posted by: Xd00999
Any validity the Insurrectionnisits had was lost when they detonated a nuclear warhead in a mining setelment, or killed several thousand people in a cruise ship, or resorted to bombing targets. For all their talk, a surprising number of their attacks occurred on the outer colonies and killed many innocent civilians.
If I recall correctly, Halsey's ambitions for the S-II Project were set in place before either of those events happened. (First several pages of her journal) The major attacks only served to motivate her...or help her justify the atrocities she was about to commit.

Keep in mind, people will do mental gymnastics in order to prove to themselves that they're not a terrible person.

Even given those circumstances, kidnapping and indoctrinating innocent children. then conducting highly experimental and dangerous procedures on them? Yeah, that's pretty damn evil in its own right.

I'm going to ask the same question as I did in my thread on Halsey's status as a monster: would you be okay with the military (of wherever) conducting a real-life SPARTAN program to combat the War on Terror?

  • 10.28.2011 4:35 AM PDT

Lol at above mental gymnastics, this immediatly came to mind ffw to 1:50 ;)

Anyways, I was in a dilemma between buying either Glasslands or Halo & Philosophy yesterday and decided to go for the latter....which sounds a lot more fun to me given its quite hilarious concept.

  • 10.28.2011 4:40 AM PDT

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Posted by: DonVinzone1I love when people recognize the references I make.

Also, Halo & Philosophy?

  • 10.28.2011 4:46 AM PDT


Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: DonVinzone1I love when people recognize the references I make.

Also, Halo & Philosophy?


Just saw that episode a few days back, awesome reference!

And yup, Halo and Philosophy: Intellect Evolved :P
Kind of like the philosophy books Star Wars/Trek and such have also caused, dealing with stuff like the possibilities and dangers of Smart AI like Cortana, the nature of Chief's personality as Cortana complements his own. But also just plain hilarious stuff like "are campers unethical?".

(Probably) not something to take really serious as its most likely light philosophy, but interesting non the less I guess as it also deals with subjects as games and violence and how we react to it.
So its not just Halo, but just one of the first books about games and philosophy I find worth reading.

  • 10.28.2011 4:58 AM PDT
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Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: anton1792
*sigh* Oh well, looks like I'll shooting Rtas in the face in Halo 6.


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I don't mind this, I'm completely cool with the Elites being the "villians" of Halo. I'd much prefer a more complex, and realistic universe where neither of the sides are really "evil" necessarily and I can identify with the antagonists nearly as much or sometimes more than the protagonists. Just so they don't start making their motivations one-note and mustache curlingly evil. Not having read the book, but only a few posts here, they at least don't seem to have done that as it seems there are different factions of the Elites with different views on everything and different tactics as opposed to one monolithic group where somehow everyone has the same opinion on the subject. They're a far more interesting society than the Brutes to have as an enemy for certain.

  • 10.28.2011 5:24 AM PDT

Like it really matters in the end if Elites become enemies or not.

Sometime in the near future Chief is going to show up and say: hey...last time I've checked we were friends and all and I so happened to have found a new common enemy so we better stay friendly if we want to survive in this extremely weak situation that we're in...

  • 10.28.2011 5:27 AM PDT

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Posted by: DonVinzone1
I so happened to have found a new common enemy so we better stay friendly if we want to survive in this extremely weak situation that we're in...
Big Jaws!

  • 10.28.2011 5:57 AM PDT


Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: DonVinzone1
I so happened to have found a new common enemy so we better stay friendly if we want to survive in this extremely weak situation that we're in...
Big Jaws!

Oh....My.....God....

[Edited on 10.28.2011 8:12 AM PDT]

  • 10.28.2011 8:10 AM PDT
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Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: Xd00999
Any validity the Insurrectionnisits had was lost when they detonated a nuclear warhead in a mining setelment, or killed several thousand people in a cruise ship, or resorted to bombing targets. For all their talk, a surprising number of their attacks occurred on the outer colonies and killed many innocent civilians.
If I recall correctly, Halsey's ambitions for the S-II Project were set in place before either of those events happened. (First several pages of her journal) The major attacks only served to motivate her...or help her justify the atrocities she was about to commit.

Keep in mind, people will do mental gymnastics in order to prove to themselves that they're not a terrible person.

Even given those circumstances, kidnapping and indoctrinating innocent children. then conducting highly experimental and dangerous procedures on them? Yeah, that's pretty damn evil in its own right.

I'm going to ask the same question as I did in my thread on Halsey's status as a monster: would you be okay with the military (of wherever) conducting a real-life SPARTAN program to combat the War on Terror?


No, because the stakes are not even close to the same. Galactic Civil War between a home planet and her colonies balanced against a perihpery, contentious fight of governmental ideals and religious beliefs rooted in prejudice and justified by resources and the metaphysical quality "freedom." So basically, take what we have now, and extrapolate it by a magnitude of 8.

You "ruin" a couple dozen families while forcing children into making their life one single duty: to protect humanity. They are made to be literally the best they can be, and because it is ethically questionable by our culture in today's standards and frame of mind, we're supposed to question it.

The ends justify the means and it's not even close. Humanity loses the war without the S2 program. We cease to exist. The majority of the families are glassed anyway. Even if the Covenant don't exist, we're in galactic Civil War. Millions more die without the Spartans.

Experimented on is the wrong phrase, I think, because they weren't test subjects. They were the prototypes that had to get what was best available. The washouts weren't experimental errors, they were probable losses.

[Edited on 10.28.2011 8:15 AM PDT]

  • 10.28.2011 8:10 AM PDT

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Posted by: MGTrey
The ends justify the means and it's not even close.
It doesn't make anybody involved any less of a monster.

You're saying all of this in hindsight; nobody had a clue what was to come when the program went into affect.

**SPOILERS**




In Glasslands, we learn that the Insurrection picked right back up where it left off. Dissent still existed, and with a shared feeling of abandonment by the UNSC in the Out Colonies, it might have actually worsened.

There's plenty of information in existing canon that hints that the UNSC, Earth, and all of the Inner Colonies enforced an authoritarian-like control over the Outer Colonies; they exploited them for their resources. The UNSC wasn't willing to change its ways, and rather than giving in to the demands of its Outer Colonies (shades of Colonial America, anyone?), it decided to oppress its own people.

Now, I have no idea (I don't think it's been stated) which side committed the first act of aggression, but it's very obvious what the root cause was.

The Insurrection was the result of the UNSC's refusal to give up some control, and rather than make it right, they instead resorted to unprecedented extremes and committed inhuman acts against non-consenting children.

Rebellion was inevitable, and Glasslands shows that not even the near-annihilation of humanity can overshadow the fruit of the UNSC's failures.

  • 10.28.2011 10:03 AM PDT

I believe Contact Harvest, Fall of Reach and esspecially Legends: Origins 1-2 state the Insurrection commited the first violent acts. They were tired of getting in converstations with the UNSC and Inner Colonies and not getting what they wanted.

However, it is heavily implied the United Governments tried to keep alle colonies under 1 autority and flag because they didn't want Humanity to lose its union and fight amongst itself like we do in current days....which ironically is what they set up to themselves.

In a war there is no such thing as a good and bad side, as each side has their valid points.
Setting up the Spartan program happened as a continuation of the S1 (ORION) program to see if they could improve on that. Yes, the purpose was then found in fighting the Insurrection. But then again: they had started to use nuclear bombs to get their attention, killing millions.

Halsey merely is a morally grey person. Yes: she did terrible things. I think nobody argues with you there. But in the end, it was worth it. No: from the get go it was known it was most likely worth it.
Add to that: the fast majority of the Spartan 2's don't feel bad about what happened to them. If the affected group doesn't care, can you really say a great deal of evil was put on them?
That makes it no more worse, or "good" than using orphaned children, give them a flash training and inferior equipment and send them en masse to their grave, for the sole purpose of winning 1 battle (Spartan 3's).

Like I said: Halsey is morally grey. There are things for and against her. Her having troubles with her choices is fine. She's always been like that.
But suddenly having the man who made it all possible, and treated the Spartans even more brutally than Halsey did personally (I'm talking about Mendez here), and not once but multiple times (!), turn on her is illogical.
If the man had problems with the whole deal and with Halsey he would have had them before. Instead, he sees training Spartans and S3's as a privilige troughout the series. But now suddenly has clean hands and is the ultimate goodguy (just like ONI acts) and Halsey is made into a monster.

Fact is...almost every character in Halo operates on moral grey area and nobody can truely be considered a monster. Not even Halsey.

  • 10.28.2011 11:00 AM PDT

Primo, the rebels escalated the fight. The Spartans were made because all the predictions were "If the trend continues, they'll control all the outer colonies and start using FTL ships as weapons of mass destruction leading to a brutal civil war that'd cripple humanity.

The first action was when the UNSC had no choice but to nuke a colony due to rebel takeover (no details other then that, BUT, it's safe to say they wouldn't nuke a place because of peaceful protests.)

Then there was a regular cargo inspection, a gun got drawn and a gunfight ensued. Both sides took death/wounded.

Then in response to the accident, a second cargo inspection happened, but the rebels SPACED the inspection crew, stormed and murdered the ENTIRE CREW OF THE SHIP, and ripped out the AI.

When destroyers when to find it, they launched an Astoreid into the three, destroying one, causing major damage to the other two and lots of deaths (that I remember). Cole barely managed to get the rebels to surrender.

Then you have the event of Rebels setting off a nuke in the middle of a colony. In 2511, a suicide bomber affiliated with the Freedom and Liberation Party loaded a commercial nuclear explosive along with several tons of scrap Cadmium into a rental truck before detonating it in the promenade of the Haven Arcology. The blast killed two million people and injured a further 8.3 million. Millions more were expected to die due to cancers and other diseases caused by the radioactive fallout, as well as cause birth defects for generations afterwards.

So yes, if the UNSC had backed down, if they had went "You can self-govern." or something similar, it wouldn't had made a -blam!- of difference at the point because the rebels turned from protesting to terrorism and killing UNSC civilians and servicemen for -blam!-s and giggles. Need I point you to "DIRT" where they bombed a club that a few ODST's were hanging out in? Killed far more civilians then the 1 or 2 ODST's that died.

Compared to that, I'd say the UNSC are the good guys. Sure they might've been strict on the outer colonies, but they did not escalate the fighting. They acted in response to the increasingly major terrorist strikes.

As Jorge's viewpoint "Oh, them self-governing is fine and acceptable, but their actions are not in any way."

Edit: Besides at that point if the UNSC had gone "Okay, you can self govern." The rebels would have torn each other apart. The outer colonies housing so many separate rebel organizations each with different goals, there would be no government, no peace anyway.

[Edited on 10.28.2011 11:10 AM PDT]

  • 10.28.2011 11:05 AM PDT
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Posted by: Primo84
It doesn't make anybody involved any less of a monster.

You're saying all of this in hindsight; nobody had a clue what was to come when the program went into affect.

**SPOILERS**




In Glasslands, we learn that the Insurrection picked right back up where it left off. Dissent still existed, and with a shared feeling of abandonment by the UNSC in the Out Colonies, it might have actually worsened.

There's plenty of information in existing canon that hints that the UNSC, Earth, and all of the Inner Colonies enforced an authoritarian-like control over the Outer Colonies; they exploited them for their resources. The UNSC wasn't willing to change its ways, and rather than giving in to the demands of its Outer Colonies (shades of Colonial America, anyone?), it decided to oppress its own people.

Now, I have no idea (I don't think it's been stated) which side committed the first act of aggression, but it's very obvious what the root cause was.

The Insurrection was the result of the UNSC's refusal to give up some control, and rather than make it right, they instead resorted to unprecedented extremes and committed inhuman acts against non-consenting children.

Rebellion was inevitable, and Glasslands shows that not even the near-annihilation of humanity can overshadow the fruit of the UNSC's failures.


I think calling them a monster is a relative term. It's either do this, and have an effective force comprised of the best soldiers humanity can chrun out while "ruining" a couple dozen families, or have untold millions more die in the crossfire. It's been touched on in numerous books that the colonies wanted more autonomy and independence from Earth, and the UNSC didn't like the idea for multiple reasons. I'm surprised the topic wasn't explored further: I know the subject of a genocidal, zealot covenant of aliens guided by holy faith trying to exterminate humanity is a racy topic, but how Earth and humanity at large can control a subdivision of its population that exists such a far way away from the heart of the empire holds a great story as well.

This entire conflict came to a head in Operation TREBUCHET. Millions of civilians had been killed in the civil conflict. They decided to nab some super children, replace them with low quality substitutes, and laugh all the way to a war with the greatest enemies humanity has faced since they reclaimed a level of tier 3 technology.

Before the Flood and the Covenant came out of the woodwork, the cost to pacify the resistance was a rough-hundred cases of kidnapping and putting them through tough training. But the result was a squad of some of the best trained and capable men and women in the entire UNSC before the augmentations. They may have been kept from other lives and their respective families, but they collectively became the single greatest asset (aside from maybe Cortana) to humanity.

Fair trade by my estimates.

[Edited on 10.28.2011 11:27 AM PDT]

  • 10.28.2011 11:22 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

To be honest i don't see how any planet self governing would be a good thing whatsoever.


It would pretty much be states in space. and Us americans should know how crappy "america" was when each of the states ruled itself.

A government is going to be needed, but in all honesty the UNSC actually is the best type of gov for man other than a science one. The whole issue with robbing the outer colonies needs to be fixed though; which is why i don't understand the lack of a huge mining operation in the oort cloud.

A Religion based gov DID work well for the elites and the covenant, humanity is best with a military or science based one.

  • 10.28.2011 10:06 PM PDT

yas334229812

Isnt the UEG the new government

And the new president is Dr. Ruth Charath.

Ch.2 in the beginning it says so.

[Edited on 10.28.2011 10:14 PM PDT]

  • 10.28.2011 10:08 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: risay_117
Isnt the UEG the new government


*Sigh* i don't even know.

Right now we have the UEG,UNSC, and ONI.

I thing the UEG is just that. The official government of Earth, the UNSC is interplanetary but the lap dog of the UEG, ONI just does whatever it wants.

  • 10.28.2011 10:14 PM PDT

yas334229812

Well bureaucratic system is a pain. Even nowadays to get something done you have to go through multiple agencies to have it be legalized and allowed. No one knows who's authority is where.

  • 10.28.2011 10:18 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: risay_117
Isnt the UEG the new government


*Sigh* i don't even know.

Right now we have the UEG,UNSC, and ONI.

I thing the UEG is just that. The official government of Earth, the UNSC is interplanetary but the lap dog of the UEG, ONI just does whatever it wants.


Techincally it's UEG is the official government, UNSC is the military.

Like the USA has the White House, then the Pentagon.

  • 10.28.2011 10:29 PM PDT

yas334229812

Although the UNSC was the government based on martial law or military rule during the war and the UEG was scraped and pushed to the sidelines till the war ended.

  • 10.28.2011 10:31 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

o0o

  • 10.28.2011 10:31 PM PDT

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Posted by: grey101
To be honest i don't see how any planet self governing would be a good thing whatsoever.
I disagree.

I'm actually in an American Government class right now, and while The Articles of Confederation were completely incapable of serving as the governing document of Colonial America, I think a similar system would work in the case of an interstellar empire.

The provisions in The Articles of Confederation didn't seem to account for proximity. Despite what they thought, the states weren't these self-sufficient sovereign entities that could provide for themselves; they were going to have to rely on each other for resources and such, and from what I understand, took advantage in the way of taxing each other.

That, and the situation made it impossible for Congress to effectively build some sort of national defense. (Individual foreign policies? Lol!)

Anyway, the Outer Colonies aren't victims of proximity. While each colony surely has its own set of unique resources to export, I would assume that there are also resources already on the planet for its population to sustain itself. Otherwise, why the hell would they colonize the planet in the first place?

The UNSC, unless in a state of emergency or war (Covenant), would only settle trade disputes, and maintain some sort of garrison on each colony, in the event of outside attack.

Think about it, the colonies have physical barriers disrupting commerce. There is less interactivity, so less need to regulate.

Would you rather the UNSC put down small uprisings between individual colonies stemming from economic issues between them, or engage a decentralized rebellion with cells across all of its colonies? Strict dual federalism was made for a situation like the UNSC has in Halo.

(What's funny about this is that it completely betrays my real-life political ideals.)

  • 10.29.2011 6:30 AM PDT

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  • 10.29.2011 9:20 AM PDT


Posted by: Primo84
I like it so far.

Anyone complaining about the Halsey-Mendez angle is blind: Halsey has been a villain since The Fall of Reach, it's just been on the backburner because everything featuring her up until this point has been told from either her perspective or one of her Spartans.

It's probably why she came off as such a -blam!- in Reach; she is one.

I have to admit, I had higher hopes for you guys. Then again, after seeing so many people in this forum claim that Jorge was a "good" character, I should have seen this coming.

Halsey is a war criminal, as are Mendez, Parangosky, and every other willing participant in the SPARTAN-II project.


Hahahahaha XD Oh don't make me laugh. Halsey is not a villain and never has been! Where did you even get such an absurd idea or interpretation from TFoR that isn't even supported by the book?

Wow, you sure are full of yourself. I don't think I've ever seen anyone with an ego as big as yours!

-.- Again with the ludicrous statements and assumptions. The creation of the Spartan Program was not a war crime, if you think that's the case I think you may need to refine your definition of that term.

I made a thread about this a while back, and it went over a lot of people's heads. It's probably the same reason my favorite novel is Contact Harvest, it shares parallels with real life current events. The Insurrection is essentially a parallel to modern terrorism, only in the Halo Universe, the Insurrection's gripes are legit, and their demands doable.

The Insurrectionists are brutal, merciless, terrorists, there is nothing noble or admirable about them. None of their complaints are legitimate in any way. The UNSC may not be perfect because no government or governing body is or ever can be, but they are not evil fascists oppressing the whole civilian populace and robbing them blind just because they can and for -blam!-z and giggles. The UNSC even tried to find a workable, peaceable solution with what became the Insurrection. The Innies are the one who created the whole conflict in the first place, they were the ones who made the first move and escalated things from simmering hostility and difficult negotiations to terrorism and what basically amounts to a civil war.

The UNSC aren't evil fascist dictators either, I'd like to see some actual evidence to support that claim, as I've never even seen anything remotely resembling such. They're not exploiting any of the colonies, they're not oppressing them, they're not brutally subverting any and all opposition, there's nothing going on in the UNSC to qualify them as some evil empire that makes those who rebel or fight against it great heroes. The worst thing they're trying to do is hold humanity together, which is not an evil goal at all. It's not about holding onto their own power, it's about keeping humanity itself strong as an act of preservation. How long do you seriously think it would all last if all of the UNSC held space broke apart and went their separate ways forming their own governments? How long before they all decide to try and kill each other off?

Halsey had an ego so large that it's a surprise the universe could physically contain it. Given her attitude toward Ackerson, her possessiveness of her work, and her need to try and be involved in everything, it's a shock that she ever felt guilt to begin with.

If she had been truly doing everything for the sake of humanity, and not her own self-interests, wouldn't you think she'd be a bit more forthcoming with her work? When faced with the truth that there had been another Spartan program done without her knowing, she seemed more so offended that they had used her work and replicated her program rather than that she'd been kept in the dark about it.


Feeling possessive of your work is natural, why is it a surprise to you? Wouldn't you care if work you spent a lot of time pouring effort and time into was just copied without any sort of consultation from you or anything? ONI pretty much stole her work, I'd be angry about that too, especially if I'd spent 25+ years of life working on it. So what if she poked into whatever she could? It's called curiosity, I'm not going to say whether Halsey poking around ONI's files is bad or good because I really don't give a damn about it, I see nothing either right or wrong with it.

Forthcoming? The Spartan II project was supposed to be a secret project, aka, not something you'd go blabbing around about. And that's the whole reason for the creation of the program, to preserved Humanity, it was not for Halsey's benefit that she proposed the program!
And as I said above, you'd feel the exact same way if you found out that someone had been copying your project and research mostly for their own gain *cough*Ackerson*cough*.

"Blah blah blah, Covenant War," some of you might say. Funny that Halsey's actions can only truly be justified/rationalized in hindsight. Years had gone into planning the SPARTAN-II project; well before the Covenant War, and if anyone paid attention to her journal, before the Insurrection had been exacerbated with the use of nuclear weapons.

She wanted free reign to do whatever the hell she felt like: she was a monster.

This only seems new because everything we've seen of her so far has been either from her own perspective, or that of a SPARTAN-II, who all idolize her.

If this is really the first time some of you have thought of this, I kind of wonder how you manage the parts of the books that aren't all 'pew pew, boom!'.


Actually they were fully justified when the program was first started. If the UNSC had just done nothing the Insurrection only would have gotten worse and billions of people would have been killed. The Insurrection began in 2494 and the Spartan II Program was not introduced for another 23+ years (approved by ONI in 2517). So no, the Spartan Program was not in serious consideration before the Innies started using nukes and widespread, massive scale terrorist activities.

I'm not going to say that Halsey's actions morally right or anything, but she's not a monster, a monster would feel no qualms or hold any regrets about what they've done or try to make amends. Now someone like Ackerson or Parangosky, they fit the bill for monster far more than Halsey does, especially Parangosky.

  • 10.29.2011 10:55 AM PDT