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  • Subject: Grey101s in depth review and analysis of Glasslands (Long)
Subject: Grey101s in depth review and analysis of Glasslands (Long)
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Spartan 100
Okay so? What if she's portrayed like that? I still like her, plenty of people still like her.

Many times I have tried to tell my friends in discussions how she did some pretty bad stuff. Karen did it better in this book by FAR.

I still like her. Like, okay so what. It's only realistic.

Doctor Halsey is one of my favourite characters. She still is. I can't wait to see the next part.


It was just too much. The way ackerson bashed halsey was far better than this. That was more of a human and understandable relationship than "i hate you because you lied about clones".

  • 10.28.2011 7:44 PM PDT

Do not want

why are you still trying here? this place is an empty grave. just archive it.

  • 10.28.2011 7:52 PM PDT
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I am...whimsical today.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Spartan 100
I don't get why some people complain about Doctor Halsey's portrail as a vilain.
Okay, some characters portray her as a villain, so what?
Because she really isn't one.
Well, that depends on who you ask ;)

ONI's power
I don't see this as much of an irregularity. For most of the book the UNSC and the Covenant (such as they are) are still officially at war. It's mentioned at the start that civilians aren't in the loop, and neither are regular soldiers, I don't see much opposition to the power ONI holds from that quater.
Also, you're perhaps viewing the matter from a peacetime perspective. We'd certainly not imagine the current ONI holding so much power, but remember humanity has just been in an official war for 30 years, and has been dealing with Insurrection for however many years previously. If ONI can back and finance the kidnap of children for military training pre-War, what's so incongruous about their power now?
I do take your point, but I think it's not so much a 'problem' as a plot point. To me, ONI is treating the threat to Earth as 'over'. They're building up forces to make Earth strong again. It's verging on Imperial.

Timeframe
I agree, it does seem a little soon. I assume this was to keep the book relevant to the group in the Dyson Sphere. The time differential was probably in place to try to address this, but I still agree that barely 2 months after the invasion of Earth, that we've got Spartan IVs and Forerunner tech seems a little weird.
That said, it's still a fair few years after the start of the Spartan III project. I don't think it's ever referenced how far either the S-IV or the Infinity project are along.
I got the impression that the Infinity was somewhat ready, and so that it didn't make an appearance in the Battle for Earth seemed strange. That said, perhaps it's not ready at all. Perhaps weird for Pangosky to play such a long game, when the extinction of your species seems likely, but maybe it's her.
I think you're misremembering the Arbiter's conversation at the end of Halo 3. As someone else above mentioned, it is not him that 'would see our homeworld again, to know that it is safe'. Perhaps weird that the Shipmaster has not been back to Sanghelios, while the Arbiter has, but this is explainable.

Outlook of the Elites
The Elites are in trouble. They've had their religion and their society swept out from under them. They've been defeated in war (or at least have failed to win, which is arguably as bad). Whereas before they were part of a functioning collective, the other members of this collective have largely gone. The crucial Engineers, who the Elites (and Covenant) relied upon for their technological sophistication have gone.
I could go on, but suffice to say it is not a stretch to see that the Elites are worse of than Humanity.
Also bear in mind that we only really see the Elites from one perspective.

Ragging on Halsey
I agree that this seemed a little slap-dash at times. It's arguable about what Pangosky was angry over, simply that she was lied to, or that she was lied to about something she found objectionable.
From what I've read of her, I'd go with the former.
There's also the idea that Halsey deserted humanity at the 11th hour. As they were readying an attack on Earth, Halsey runs off with a ONI asset. This could also tie into the idea of ONI's empire building. No one is going to be allowed to weaken them.
Most of the hate against Halsey comes from ONI sources, after they decide to blacken her name.
The exceptions are Oz, Pangorsky and Mendez.
Of the three, I found Mendez's confrontations to be the most nonsensical. Not completely, but at times I got confused about who had what argument for/against the Spartans.

Power gathering
This ties in a lot with the first paragraph, but I essentially think that ONI is gathering power in order to re-unite Humanity.
The book mentions how Oz mentally classifies planets, and that not a few are glassed, or have gone dark, such as Venezia. In my view, ONI still remembers the Insurrection, and a time where Humanity was not united. They've simply gone back to that time, but with more players to the game.

Humanity and the Forerunners
It does seem incongruous when you think about it. All I can suggest is secretive ONI right-hand not knowing what the left is doing, etc.
Not ideal, I agree, but not not outside reason either.

Virgil
Yes, this bit made me pause. The only thing I can think of is a mistake (it's not the only one in the book. Not as bad as Nylund, but how hard can proofreading be, seriously?). That, or Oz was deliberately lying, or had been lied to.
Neither fit though.


Well, these points came to mind at least :)

  • 10.28.2011 7:58 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Thanks Guscon nice reply!

  • 10.28.2011 8:04 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Guscon
Outlook of the Elites
The Elites are in trouble. They've had their religion and their society swept out from under them. They've been defeated in war (or at least have failed to win, which is arguably as bad). Whereas before they were part of a functioning collective, the other members of this collective have largely gone. The crucial Engineers, who the Elites (and Covenant) relied upon for their technological sophistication have gone.
I could go on, but suffice to say it is not a stretch to see that the Elites are worse of than Humanity.
Also bear in mind that we only really see the Elites from one perspective.


My biggest pet peeve is just that the Elites trust Brutes more than humans. I get they just finsihed fighting against each other, but some things to remember.

Humanity was respected by the Elites numerous times in the canon. More than the Brutes to.

The Brutes and Elites hated each other. During the Great Schism, they murdered the Elite Council, fought ship-to-ship battles, ATE dead Elites after they killed them and obviously their hostile feelings towards each other go well into the late-2550s.

I mean, this makes no sense to me.

  • 10.28.2011 8:04 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Ruby of the Blue
Super soldiers are not at all necessary for an insurrection.
It's a fluke.


And insurrection that nuked cities. And hijacked entire ships.


So, an entire and complete empire isn't able to take down a separatists organization? That makes no sense.

  • 10.28.2011 8:10 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Ruby of the Blue

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Ruby of the Blue
Super soldiers are not at all necessary for an insurrection.
It's a fluke.


And insurrection that nuked cities. And hijacked entire ships.


So, an entire and complete empire isn't able to take down a separatists organization? That makes no sense.


How about you go read the books and come back when you know what you're talking about?

  • 10.28.2011 8:14 PM PDT

yas334229812

Only a couple elites have confessed to it and only a couple ever survived the encouter. I bet not even the whole armada was at earth. Remember how the Elite's would work separately from the humans to get the objective done but never together in Halo 3. And only helped chief when there were nearly no humans. It looks like the war mainly was fought more effectively when both sides were segregated from each other.

  • 10.28.2011 8:15 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: risay_117
Only a couple elites have confessed to it and only a couple ever survived the encouter. I bet not even the whole armada was at earth. Remember how the Elite's would work separately from the humans to get the objective done but never together in Halo 3. And only helped chief when there were nearly no humans. It looks like the war mainly was fought more effectively when both sides were segregated from each other.


So even after years of tension, the Brutes committing xenocide against the Elites, EATING them and continuing to fight them up till 2559, they trust them more than the humans they respected?

  • 10.28.2011 8:16 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: risay_117
Only a couple elites have confessed to it and only a couple ever survived the encouter. I bet not even the whole armada was at earth. Remember how the Elite's would work separately from the humans to get the objective done but never together in Halo 3. And only helped chief when there were nearly no humans. It looks like the war mainly was fought more effectively when both sides were segregated from each other.


Good point

  • 10.28.2011 8:17 PM PDT

Um, yeah bye.

  • 10.28.2011 8:20 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Dark Turtle 139
Um, yeah bye.


So you have nothing to contribute?

  • 10.28.2011 8:22 PM PDT

yas334229812


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: risay_117
Only a couple elites have confessed to it and only a couple ever survived the encouter. I bet not even the whole armada was at earth. Remember how the Elite's would work separately from the humans to get the objective done but never together in Halo 3. And only helped chief when there were nearly no humans. It looks like the war mainly was fought more effectively when both sides were segregated from each other.


So even after years of tension, the Brutes committing xenocide against the Elites, EATING them and continuing to fight them up till 2559, they trust them more than the humans they respected?


Old habits die hard. Still you could say the elites are being pushed by Thel to make an alliance with the humans while most do not trust either, plus they know that the brutes are not truly stupid enough to fight back if they do they may risk having genocide.

Plus some educated elite may have read the dark history of humanity saw how cunning and how vile we can be, competent to poison our friends water or kill them in the back when they are not looking and not usefull. Remember they were trying to learn about us during the war to find a way to defeat us.

Still i do not have any argument against you accept they may not trust either, except the alliance with the brutes is easier to do but a hated one, while a human one is something of pride, you killed this species for decades how can you turn your back on this and expect to move on. Its guilt and they do not want to face it. They do not want to relive their long ignorance and fear that they all they did was for nothing, it destroys them mentally.

Whereas the brutes are something different they can look at them with disgust and tell them we will work with you if you stop your stupid blam and we are only doing this to help each other nothing else, and we need you as much as we need you, after that good bye and f you. Its easier there is no remorse and you know they have to do it as well.

  • 10.28.2011 8:38 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: risay_117
Only a couple elites have confessed to it and only a couple ever survived the encouter. I bet not even the whole armada was at earth. Remember how the Elite's would work separately from the humans to get the objective done but never together in Halo 3. And only helped chief when there were nearly no humans. It looks like the war mainly was fought more effectively when both sides were segregated from each other.

I think you are just grossly underplaying the significance of those events.

  • 10.28.2011 8:39 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

I'm just saying, if I saw a former ally eat my fellow brothers, I think any reconciliation is out of the question.

  • 10.28.2011 8:40 PM PDT

yas334229812

i still think the pride is the problem they can not make an alliance with the humans because they may be ashamed for what they have done while the brutes looked to be an easier way out. At least Thel helped end this self pity and self pain they were causing themselves.

Maybe they just can not look at a human without feeling guilt especially a child, some may even try to commit suicide

Whereas the brutes there is some other kind of emotion, a hostility one where both downed enemies know they need each other to survive and will help each other. When they both escape the fray they will leave with their backs turned on each other and then later meet to kill each other. Plus they will always be on guard watching for the other group to make a move against the treaty.

Plus the elites could call on the humans to help them if they are attacked and nearly beaten by the brutes.

  • 10.28.2011 8:48 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: risay_117
Plus the elites could call on the humans to help them if they are attacked and nearly beaten by the brutes.

What would be the point in that?

  • 10.28.2011 9:55 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: risay_117
i still think the pride is the problem they can not make an alliance with the humans because they may be ashamed for what they have done while the brutes looked to be an easier way out. At least Thel helped end this self pity and self pain they were causing themselves.

Maybe they just can not look at a human without feeling guilt especially a child, some may even try to commit suicide

Whereas the brutes there is some other kind of emotion, a hostility one where both downed enemies know they need each other to survive and will help each other. When they both escape the fray they will leave with their backs turned on each other and then later meet to kill each other. Plus they will always be on guard watching for the other group to make a move against the treaty.

Plus the elites could call on the humans to help them if they are attacked and nearly beaten by the brutes.



Karen messed up by having the brutes "remain loyal" to the elites because it is the lekgolo that are loyal to the elites.

They don't ally with us because they know we are better than them and are mad about that. And The Elites wouldn't call on us for help.

  • 10.28.2011 9:58 PM PDT

People seem to ignore the fact by replacing the children with clones, it also avoids a number of investigations into their disappearance, which might lead to ONI.

It said that in Fall of Reach no? "This many children all disappearing at once would be noticed." or something.

  • 10.28.2011 11:19 PM PDT


Posted by: Inboundpaper
I see ONI is being played up as the biggest power ever. I do not approve.


Yeah, I'll get called stupid/retarded for this, but before the glasslands bits I've read, I thought of ONI as semi-legit, and actually answering to UNSC highcom.

Now they are a cheap and blatant rip off of Cerberus from Mass Effect.

  • 10.28.2011 11:21 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Firstly, I have not read Glasslands. Not sure that I want to.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Parangosky was not aware that such operations were being funded by her money, and even more pissed because the cloning was functionally pointless.


How could Parangosky not be aware that the Spartan II candidates were flash-cloned? True, Halsey developed the process to flash-clone her brain to create Cortana, but the flash clones were created essentially to draw suspicion away from ONI. You can't be accused of abduction if the subjects are "still there" and later die, erasing all trails. The inclusion of the Spartan II information (which beforehand I was under the impression was destroyed,) being "shown to the Spartans," (I remember it being mentioned as in Glasslands,) is a bad element. Why would ONI keep that information if they wanted no suspicion or trail leading them to the children and the Spartans? That information would have been completely destroyed. The Spartan's previous lives would have died with the clones.

  • 10.28.2011 11:39 PM PDT
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"but you already knew that, I mean, how couldn't you?

Only when no Human brick is left atop another, shall we be satisfied with your destruction.

I wish I could say I was surprised to read that review, but to be honest I don't hold a high opinion of Travis's work.

It sounds like more of the same fare; bizzare and illogical moralising*, totally OOC behaviour for established characters and factions, a disregard for source material, and a disregard for common sense and any sense of realism**.

While she is a technically proficient authour, and indeed I'm sure any original books she has could be quite good, she does have a history of going a bit off-tack when writing books in existing universes.

*Don't get me wrong, moralising is good when it makes sense.

**SPARTAN 4s, !instant! Forerunner tech, ONI trying to get Humanity back into a war they barely survived once....


Basically: bah, it would have been nice to be wrong about this... Oh well. :(

  • 10.29.2011 1:51 AM PDT

Wake me when the jews are gone.

i don't know why everone is hating Halo Glasslands.
yes the everyonee hates Halsey, the forehuner drives and the UNSC enginier was bull-blam!- but apart from that i realy liked the novel and the civil war thing sems logical to me don't you remenber that Imperial Admiral Xytan 'Jar Wattinree still wanted the destruction od the humas before the detonation of the NOVA bomb

  • 10.29.2011 6:36 AM PDT

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If you're reading this, you need to stop stalking me. If you can't stop stalking me, you might as well go here.

Posted by: GusconGreat reply.
ONI's powerYou're absolutely right. Thirty years of war doesn't just end that easily, and the people at ONI know that. In fact, ONI has more work than ever now that the 'official' fighting has stopped; colonies have gone dark, the Insurrection seems to be perking back up, and the lines between ally and enemy aren't clear at all.
TimeframeI wish they would have spaced it out a little bit longer after the end of Halo 3, but whatever.

From the sound of it, the SPARTAN-IV Program is only in the planning stages, so I don't really see it as an issue. Some people may ask why it's even necessary, but keep in mind that ONI doesn't see the war as over. It makes sense that they'd just start from scrap with a new program rather than continue with S-III, what with their project leader dying, the destruction of their base of operations, and the fact that everyone seems to have grown a conscience about the use of children for military projects.

Infinity, on the other hand, seems like it was left kind of ambiguous. Did they ever really give a definitive answer to how far along it was in construction? The whole thing begs the question of it being wise to invest in such a (seemingly) important project with The Covenant bearing down on Earth. Then again, who knows what the time frame regarding ONI receiving word of the Covenant's discovery of the location of Earth and the beginning of the project was.

Less than two months passed between the Fall of Reach and the beginning of the Battle of Earth. Infinity could have started well before Reach chosen as the sacrificial lamb for RED FLAG. Remember, the events of the original trilogy only take place in a matter of weeks.

As made evident by...well...everything, a lot can happen over the course of a few months.
Outlook of the ElitesThe Elites are -blam!-. Some people may see a problem between the events of this story and when the events of The Return take place, but I think it just goes to further show how dire the Elites' situation is.

Hood said it himself, there are probably UNSC and Covenant elements out in space still that haven't received word that the fighting has stopped. We see right there in Glasslands that there are rogue elements in Sangheili society that don't agree with the path The Arbiter is leading them down.

It's a problem that, realistically speaking, isn't going to clear itself up overnight. Because of this, I don't see any problem in continuity between Glasslands and The Return.
Ragging on HalseyThis is all conjecture, but regarding Mendez, I can't help but feel he's been mulling over the morality of his actions for years. When approached with the SPARTAN-III Project, he was probably still in a state of denial. Throughout that time, he probably came to terms with the things he was doing, and was just beginning to accept the fact that he had done unspeakable things around the time Halsey came around.

The thing with Halsey is, while we know she feels immense guilt on the inside, she keeps up this "don't -blam!- with me" charade for everyone else. It's all about not looking weak, if you ask me. Hell, even after learning her own daughter had died, she tries to hold it in so her Spartans don't see her cry.

I feel as if Catherine Halsey is still struggling with what she's done. On one hand, she's feeling guilty and telling herself that she deserves any punishment she has coming, and on the other, she's trying to justify her methods to Paragnosky, and asserting that she (Paragnosky) has no moral high ground to stand on.

Hell, I think the word martyrdom is even thrown around somewhere in there.

Halsey is still working her way to where Mendez in terms of mental state, but because she's still conflicted and wants to look strong, she kind of comes off as if she has no remorse for what she's done. That's all Paragnosky, Mendez, and the others see. They're not in Halsey's head like we are. In fact, I think the outward result of Halsey's inner conflict is what sets Mendez against her in the first place.

Here he is, accepting that he may be a bit of a monster, and in strolls Halsey with her "don't blame me, it was for the good of humanity" mentality. Wouldn't that piss most people off?

It comes off as extremely hypocritical, but there's a rhyme and reason for it.

Paragnosky is much more set in her ways than both Mendez or Halsey. She states herself that she doesn't seek any moral high ground in respect to her involvement in the Spartan Projects: she knows she's approved unspeakable things, and she doesn't care. Paragnosky is convinced that the immoral things she has to do in her position save the lives and consciences of others. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it with her.

I think her beef with Halsey is not so much that she lied to her, but that she sees recognizes that Halsey is conflicted, and she sees that in itself as weakness. Like Mendez, Halsey is coming off as very high and mighty to Parangosky, and I think it infuriates her. I think Margaret wants Halsey to know that she is no better than her.

And this creates an extremely interesting dynamic. You have Mendez on one side, who seems to be recently set in his ways of feeling guilty about his involvement, and he resents Halsey for being conflicted.

On the other side, you have Parangosky, who is convinced that their actions are justified in their overall benefit for humanity, and she also hates Halsey for being conflicted.

Parangosky is black.
Mendez is white.
Halsey is stuck in that grey area in-between, and everyone resents her for it.

I feel like Serin Osman has completely legitimate issues with Halsey. She sees it as Halsey having stolen her life from her, killed her, then abandoned her. It's not really as significant as the Halsey-Mendez-Parangosky dynamic.
Power gatheringYep, and ONI and the UNSC have a lot to clean up. Not only is there the post-war situation with the remnants of the Covenant, but Insurrection is back, and likely with a collective of colonists that feel abandoned by their military.

Humanity should be as worried about their internal post-war situation as much as the Elites are theirs.
Humanity and the Forerunners
I'm not sure what you're referring to.
Virgil
Again, I'm not sure what you're talking about, but you bringing up Virgil reminds me that he could have been used as a means to integrate Forerunner tech and begin work on Infinity.

Then again, that would create an implausible time frame in regards to comments on Infinity earlier in this post.

[Edited on 10.29.2011 7:59 AM PDT]

  • 10.29.2011 7:53 AM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

I haven't read it yet. I'm in the middle of my first semester of law school. I'll buy it over christmas break and get back to you all.

  • 10.29.2011 8:32 AM PDT