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Subject: Invasion is...

Back to kick ass

I miss the Beta's Invasion Aesthetically it was cool. Also I always wanted to do an Invasion when you have to infiltrate a Human or Covenant ship. Seriously

[Edited on 10.29.2011 8:51 PM PDT]

  • 10.29.2011 8:51 PM PDT
Subject: What's your opinion on Bungie's style of Invasion?
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WTF Humanity!


Posted by: A 3 Legged Goat

Posted by: SkyFighta65

Posted by: A 3 Legged Goat
343i's forums aren't working for me anymore :/
Sign into xbox.com first.


Doesn't work.


Posted by: KinglyMoCa
Have you made invasion maps in the past?


I only tested a handful of concepts and WIPs, but if you were to count the total number of attempts it'd be well into the 100s. ODST Invasion alone went through over 50 iterations. I gave up as soon as I saw the ODST-themed Headlong. Now I can't wait to do what I wanted to do without worrying about budget.

Wait one second, you don't have a budget for Forge?!Explain please.
But I'd like to see vehicles.
So instead of sitting in the spot to open the core.Why not make a warthog or mongoose a core opener?

  • 10.29.2011 8:58 PM PDT
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The only main thing that bugged me was the spawning in Invasion. I always hated how the vehicles and weapons for each team are so easily reached by the opposing team.
For example, on Boneyard or Spire, I hate trying to rush for the rockets or sniper on each of these maps because more than half the time by the time I get there an elite already has it! Especially on Boneyard, when the elites get to the weapon cache and camp with the rockets.

Then is the Banshee on spire. The Spartans can steal it so easily giving the elites no chance, since they have needle rifle and other weapons that are useless against vehicles.
NOT TO MENTION, if the elites do get the banshee, then the spartans vehicles are out in the open and are easily destroyed by said banshee.
AND if the Spartans get the banshee, the elites can have fun getting spawn killed.

This is why I wish Bungie didn't take the campaign maps and use them for online maps. They can't exactly give easy protection to the vehicles on Spire like they can on Boneyard, and even then, the vehicle protection on Boneyard is only for the spartans, where as the elites vehicles are out in the open ready for the taking!

TLDR; Weapon, Vehicle, AND player spawns suck.

  • 10.29.2011 9:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: Nintendude12345
Wait one second, you don't have a budget for Forge?!Explain please.
But I'd like to see vehicles.
So instead of sitting in the spot to open the core.Why not make a warthog or mongoose a core opener?

He meant that when the new map comes out he won't have to use forge pieces to make every structure on the map. He'll just use the Headlong remake as the base or his Firefight map.

  • 10.29.2011 9:58 PM PDT
Subject: Invasion is...
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If you like Armor Lock, you are a troll.

Bloomless invasion or bust.

  • 10.29.2011 10:52 PM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

I really feel like Bungie spawned the attackers too far from the objective in the second and third phases to be effective.

[Edited on 10.29.2011 11:13 PM PDT]

  • 10.29.2011 11:12 PM PDT

There needs to be a good balance of indoor-outdoor areas, with plenty of cover in the former. Part of the current problem is that Spartans, having hitscan weaponry, absolutely dominate outdoors areas, as the bonus of Elite shields means nothing when they can't hit their opponents for issues of sheer range. Their toughness and plasma weaponry gives them an advantage in close-quarters, so there needs to be an equal mix in order to preserve balance without sacrificing team personalities through non-canon weapon loadouts.

On this subject, I'd like to see the Plasma Rifle make a return. Not sure if you're aware, but I think the Repeater is coded to do bullet-style rather than plasma-style damage: it's a lot more effective against health than it is shields. Depleting shields quicker means Elites have more chance of getting melee kills, further boosting their CQC chances and balancing outdoor/indoor gameplay. This of course works better if they're on offence, as otherwise camping advantage would be TOO powerful (think of Shotty Spartans in Boneyard's core room).

The Scorpion has no place in Invasion. It doesn't require a great deal of skill and allows a single man to suppress an entire team, especially considering lack of EFFECTIVE Covy antitank weaponry. A Rocket Hog is more balanced and promotes teamwork, as well as earning a two-man advantage for the Elites for precious seconds after it's been destroyed.

On a purely aesthetic note, of the maps of yours that I've played I was most impressed by those that made use of the natural environment and had Forge objects supplementing them - Jackal Creek immediately springs to mind. I love the balance between natural and artificial here, and I'd like to see maps in a similar style - very much a personal preference rather than a game mechanic, but at least it might save you a bit of budget : )

In terms of spawning, there should be definite safezones with multiple exits to prevent spawn camping or trapping - that's a trick for Slayer, not Invasion, something Bungie really should have thought of when they put in the Elite spawns on Boneyard knowing that the Spartans would have shotguns, the ultimate weapon when you know exactly where an opponent is going to appear.

Also, while the DMR is a definite second-tier loadout, I'm not sure it's a good idea in tier 1 - sure there's more variety, but it's a lot more powerful than the Needle Rifle and with the bigger head hitboxes on Elites really dominates them. The Magnum is a better match as it's less accurate, has significantly greater bloom, and doesn't have the strength of scope. Of course, that doesn't mean the DMR can't appear as a pickup in tier 1, it's just too damn effective at all ranges to be a spawning weapon - the only exception being if the map is set with very short sight-lines and emphasises CQC, where Elites' Plasma Rifles and rush to get in close would balance nicely with the DMR's raw power and headshot potential, but a map like this might have problems providing enough vehicular combat to feel like a true Invasion match.

Lastly, the Banshee is fine. Yes, it forces everyone to keep their heads down and stay indoors, but once they're in it can't really do a whole lot against them. This does prevent the Spartan weaponry from dominating exterior combat, and allows true battles of skill once the Splaser is unveiled - best one wins, loser dies, and that's how its meant to be.

Sorry for the wall of text, I think that covers all my suggestions though. I'm a big fan of your work, and I'm excited to see how any new maps turn out!

  • 10.29.2011 11:33 PM PDT

Ever wonder what's up there?

If you're going to put CQC in your maps, make sure to give Elites some Camo and Concussion/Focus rifles.

[Edited on 10.29.2011 11:39 PM PDT]

  • 10.29.2011 11:38 PM PDT

I am invisible, understand, simply because people refuse to see me.
--Ralph Ellison

The biggest problem I've always had with Invasion is its inconsistencies. For example, only one pair can spawn on the weapons on Breakpoint. Why? It makes no sense. They seem to go unused if I'm not the one spawning in there.

And then there's the vehicle protection. Sometimes they're protected, sometimes they're not. On Boneyard, the Spartan's vehicles are protected but the only thing protecting the Elite's vehicles is the great distance to travel to them for the Spartan's. On Spire, the Spartan's can spawn right near the enemies Banshee but it would take 3 minutes for an Elite to get to the Falcon.

And then there's the crap like the rocks on Spire that you can climb on. Why are those not soft-killed? The Elites get Needle Rifles and amazingly superior height-advantage + cover.

And then there's using AAs in the capture points.

And then there's the inconsistent weapon spawn times where they could spawn instantly or take 3 minutes.

And then there's just the vehicles themselves. Bungie completely messed up the vehicle balance in Reach so a tank can completely obliterate everything and ruin Boneyard if a competent player is in one. And the Banshee completely ruins Spire if a Spartan steals it.

Breakpoint is the Invasion done right (except for the fact that only one team can use the weapons). Boneyard and Spire are trash and are only fun if you're in the mood to statwhore.

[Edited on 10.30.2011 12:16 AM PDT]

  • 10.30.2011 12:16 AM PDT

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Posted by: KoO 101
Breakpoint is the Invasion done right (except for the fact that only one team can use the weapons). Boneyard and Spire are trash and are only fun if you're in the mood to statwhore.


I agree fully with your points, especially this one. I love Boneyard for the beta nostalgia, but it's so poorly designed it's remarkable how anyone still enjoys it.

  • 10.30.2011 1:26 AM PDT

THIS is how I roll.

Things I'd like to see in any community-made Invasion map...* Vehicle Turrets (Wraith, R.Hog, Renevant) {maybe more, but these are the three that come to mind quickest without being massively overpowered.}
EG: I once saw a friend use a Falcon on Breakpoint to excellent effect. He moved it near the PL spawn (it was one-bomb), jumped out, got into the right turret, and used it as a stationry turret. With a major radar boost.

* One-way shields protecting vehicles for both sides, not just defenders.

* No Banshee. At all. The thing is just too overpowered.

* Multiple spawns for Phase One Attackers, maybe shared. Nothing is worse then your squadmate quitting and then being spawnkilled for the game.

* A neutral base that becomes available after a round where the attackers have gained control of an area. The neutral base holds a tactical advantage for the team that controls it; but can easily be captured by either team.

* Longer weapon and vehicle spawn times. I've lost count of the number of times then enemy banshee has been destroyed on Spire, then it respawns five seconds after the Elite piloting it has respawned.
These are the first ones that have come to mind. Note that some of these could be very overpowered if either not placed right, or a good player gets control of them.

  • 10.30.2011 2:19 AM PDT

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That's a very good post. Thanks again everyone for participating.

Man I'm so anxious to build Invasion ODST, but since breakneck has the same general location it wouldn't make sense for me to build it. I can just do it on breakneck. Only problem is that I lose something very special if I do decide to use 343i's map.

Been trying to build CE invasion but everything's already been done. Alaska and Montana are too narrow for vehicle combat. The Canyon has too many hills. The island has too many rocks, making driving a hog or goose around there will be a disaster. And if I build off of the quarry I lose vehicle combat completely. I don't want to do away with that, which is why I'm having so much trouble.

That really only leaves the beach and area around the cave, which are again too narrow for 12 players. As soon as I find somewhere to build I should be fine. It's just finding the right location and the right objectives. And on top of that, it has to be unique. I have a map that's just a long broken bridge all the way from Alaska to Montana (not original but my bridge is). I can make it very fun, but I doubt one large road is going to become a definitive Invasion experience.

Back to the drawing board! -__-

[Edited on 10.30.2011 3:08 AM PDT]

  • 10.30.2011 3:07 AM PDT
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Posted by: All rights

Posted by: Kira Onime
1 more thing.


More Breakpoint PLEASE.
Fixed.

I think we can all agree on this fix.

  • 10.30.2011 4:35 AM PDT

"Before you insult someone, try walking a mile in their shoes. This way, when you insult them, you are a mile away and have their shoes."

I don't like any of the default maps 100%. I wish there could be maps with 50%/50% balanced foot/vehicle combat, and that the entire map is used during the entire game. That means using the phase1 area the whole game, and making themes. Purification chambers, space stations, etc.

Oh yes, please, destroying buildings with the bomb makes a great effect, it should be done more often!

  • 10.30.2011 5:16 AM PDT

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Posted by: davadude
I don't like any of the default maps 100%. I wish there could be maps with 50%/50% balanced foot/vehicle combat, and that the entire map is used during the entire game. That means using the phase1 area the whole game, and making themes. Purification chambers, space stations, etc.

Oh yes, please, destroying buildings with the bomb makes a great effect, it should be done more often!


The thing about using phase 1 over again is that it makes it difficult to set up spawns. Using phase 1's area is a spawning zone is much more convenient and risk-free. If it's used the whole time, things like spawn trapping and weapon/vehicle theft will multiply.

I see where you're coming from though.

  • 10.30.2011 5:18 AM PDT

"Before you insult someone, try walking a mile in their shoes. This way, when you insult them, you are a mile away and have their shoes."


Posted by: A 3 Legged Goat

Posted by: davadude
I don't like any of the default maps 100%. I wish there could be maps with 50%/50% balanced foot/vehicle combat, and that the entire map is used during the entire game. That means using the phase1 area the whole game, and making themes. Purification chambers, space stations, etc.

Oh yes, please, destroying buildings with the bomb makes a great effect, it should be done more often!


The thing about using phase 1 over again is that it makes it difficult to set up spawns. Using phase 1's area is a spawning zone is much more convenient and risk-free. If it's used the whole time, things like spawn trapping and weapon/vehicle theft will multiply.

I see where you're coming from though.


Let me give you a small idea that I get when I think of ODST:

-An Alpha site type map.
-The covvies spawn in a small dropship.
-Using despawning, the dropship moves along the map, but the entire map remains in use.
-The compact nature of the map allow the entire map to be used, without spawn camping.
-If all fails, use one-way shields.

  • 10.30.2011 5:22 AM PDT

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The difficult part about this whole ODST ordeal is trying to get it to look and feel like the city. I can just slap a plaza down and build 3 phases around it, but without the streets, alleyways, and buildings in sight, it'll just feel like a random urban block. It wont look pleasing (since it's as grey as they come) and it wont be engaging.

I have 3 tricks up my sleeve for this map. All I need is a good layout. Already tore through hundreds of sheets of paper trying to draft one up :/

  • 10.30.2011 5:28 AM PDT

"Before you insult someone, try walking a mile in their shoes. This way, when you insult them, you are a mile away and have their shoes."


Posted by: A 3 Legged Goat
The difficult part about this whole ODST ordeal is trying to get it to look and feel like the city. I can just slap a plaza down and build 3 phases around it, but without the streets, alleyways, and buildings in sight, it'll just feel like a random urban block. It wont look pleasing (since it's as grey as they come) and it wont be engaging.

I have 3 tricks up my sleeve for this map. All I need is a good layout. Already tore through hundreds of sheets of paper trying to draft one up :/



I understand the problem, I have issues making city-inspired type maps, too. But perhaps using filters to cancel out (juicy/grayscale/orange), you can actually make the grey stand out. Using red /purple lights can make it look great, too.

I'll try to forge both a city map and a more military invasion maps in the next month, I'll contact you with the results. Nice to meet someone who likes Invasion and forging it!

  • 10.30.2011 5:30 AM PDT

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Posted by: davadude

Posted by: A 3 Legged Goat
The difficult part about this whole ODST ordeal is trying to get it to look and feel like the city. I can just slap a plaza down and build 3 phases around it, but without the streets, alleyways, and buildings in sight, it'll just feel like a random urban block. It wont look pleasing (since it's as grey as they come) and it wont be engaging.

I have 3 tricks up my sleeve for this map. All I need is a good layout. Already tore through hundreds of sheets of paper trying to draft one up :/



I understand the problem, I have issues making city-inspired type maps, too. But perhaps using filters to cancel out (juicy/grayscale/orange), you can actually make the grey stand out. Using red /purple lights can make it look great, too.

I'll try to forge both a city map and a more military invasion maps in the next month, I'll contact you with the results. Nice to meet someone who likes Invasion and forging it!


I love Invasion forging but I'm getting OCD about it. Every little error bothers me, which is why I have yet to publish one officially. I want it to be near perfection.

  • 10.30.2011 5:32 AM PDT

"Before you insult someone, try walking a mile in their shoes. This way, when you insult them, you are a mile away and have their shoes."


Posted by: A 3 Legged Goat

Posted by: davadude

Posted by: A 3 Legged Goat
The difficult part about this whole ODST ordeal is trying to get it to look and feel like the city. I can just slap a plaza down and build 3 phases around it, but without the streets, alleyways, and buildings in sight, it'll just feel like a random urban block. It wont look pleasing (since it's as grey as they come) and it wont be engaging.

I have 3 tricks up my sleeve for this map. All I need is a good layout. Already tore through hundreds of sheets of paper trying to draft one up :/



I understand the problem, I have issues making city-inspired type maps, too. But perhaps using filters to cancel out (juicy/grayscale/orange), you can actually make the grey stand out. Using red /purple lights can make it look great, too.

I'll try to forge both a city map and a more military invasion maps in the next month, I'll contact you with the results. Nice to meet someone who likes Invasion and forging it!


I love Invasion forging but I'm getting OCD about it. Every little error bothers me, which is why I have yet to publish one officially. I want it to be near perfection.


The next time you complete an Invasion map, hit myself and 10 others up. The feedback your receive is generally better than the feedback you find yourself. You know the map, every nook, every cranny, but we don't. Using this, you'll find a realistic opinion on the map.

  • 10.30.2011 5:35 AM PDT

*reminisces when the Bungie/Halo community wasn't made up of CoD kids*
*sighs*
*activates time-machine and sets the clock back to Nov. 9, 2004*
glory days here I come..
*vanishes*

Covenant vehicles need shields around the areas they spawn on, like the UNSC vehicles.

  • 10.30.2011 5:43 AM PDT

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Posted by: lord of dahorde
Covenant vehicles need shields around the areas they spawn on, like the UNSC vehicles.



Not necessarily. It depends on the map itself and how the phases are split

  • 10.30.2011 6:17 AM PDT

Posted by: Yamadog27
Opinions are like butholes. Everyone's got one, nobody wants to hear about it.

Put in the Banshee. Don't cater to noobs who can't take it down.

[Edited on 10.30.2011 7:07 AM PDT]

  • 10.30.2011 7:07 AM PDT

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Posted by: Vidgameplayer007
Put in the Banshee. Don't cater to noobs who can't take it down.


If it's not necessary I wont need it. The Banshee will ruin infantry movement, which is what I'm trying to focus on here. I don't exactly plan on having a lot of roofed structures either...

  • 10.30.2011 7:12 AM PDT

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Building Invasion is a very difficult process. I have to worry about players who aren't going to play it how it was meant to be played. I have to account for aggressive players and passive, conservative players. In addition, I have to design it in a way so that it doesn't become frustrating after a loss. So many times on custom maps I'd grow tired of the match halfway through, and I don't want that to happen to the maps I make.

All this has to be taken into consideration before the map is even created in Forge. I've been sketching out designs for days and I still haven't arrived at a good one.

I think I'm going to play some halo CE to try and get an idea for a location. I can do human structures and ODST aesthetics with no problem. However, when it comes to CE's forerunner style, it's very difficult to replicate. Before you even use the pieces you have to find the best possible area to build it. I've been flying around Forge since 3am and I still haven't found anywhere to build. =/

[Edited on 10.30.2011 7:20 AM PDT]

  • 10.30.2011 7:19 AM PDT