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Subject: Glasslands Review (SPOILERS)

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"Sometimes life gives you lemons, and then you have to say 'f**k the lemons' and bail."

If you're reading this, you need to stop stalking me. If you can't stop stalking me, you might as well go here.

I've been mulling this over for a few days now, and I've finally reached that point where my posts have been ignored enough that I need to just demand to be the center of attention for a few minutes and create my own thread.

Glasslands seems to be catching heat for, what I believe, are its strengths. If I could make a harsh analogy, I would say that Eric Nylund, who the regulars of this forum seem to worship, is Michael Bay to Karen Traviss' Martin Scorsese. While I admit that I'm exaggerating quite a bit, I see Glasslands getting bashed simply for doing something fans of the Halo novels aren't used to: writing a character-driven story.

While there's still a nostalgic place in my heart for Nylund's work with the Halo series, if you take a step back and try not to look at it as a Halo fanboy, there's a lot to be desired. Nylund, especially in The Fall of Reach, paints a very vivid, detailed picture of the Halo Universe. He sets up a great setting, but as he frames an overall compelling story, he completely fails to deliver with the characters.

I was discussing this in a private group, and while a bit harsh, I think elmicker put this perfectly:p much. If I had to identify the biggest flaw in halo's writing, and wasn't allowed to pick any of the GAPING plot holes, it would be the moral absolutism with which the characters are portrayed. No one is ever evil because it R ALL FOR DA GOOD OF HUMANITY. Even when they're kidnapping children from their homes in the middle of the night to enact an illegal campaign of murder against a separatist group who only want their independence, it's still all -blam!- YEAH GUNS AND HUMANS.

It's good to know they're adding a little bit of depth rather than just more retcon-tastic fluff or bullet-by-bullet details of battles straight out of the one dimensional imagination of a fourteen year old.
The moral absolutism is where Nylund's writing takes a nose dive. Everything is in concrete, black and white terms: it's all for the good of humanity. Every morally questionable thing done in hi stories, while maybe questioned by the person committing them at first, is soon to be discarded for the reason that it's being done with the best of intentions.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I don't know whether it's not addressed in depth because it eluded him intellectually or because it just didn't fit with the story's theme, but the morality wasn't a heavily discussed theme in any of Nylund's work. It's okay though, because if I had to compare Eric Nylund's work with anything, I'd say it reminds me of a decent action movie. It's entertaining, and the pieces are all there, it's just lacking depth.

And that's okay.

And then Traviss comes along and tries to pick up these themes that Nylund seemed to throw by the wayside. Believe it or not, no matter what the circumstances, a lot of people would bat an eye at something like the SPARTAN projects in real life, intelligence agencies in reality do extremely immoral things in the name of national security and intelligence gathering, and people, at least those who aren't sociopaths, often experience conflicting emotions and inner turmoil.

Glasslands ditched Nylund's habit of writing morally absolute characters and scenarios in favor of plot elements that can be tied to modern real life societal values. Sure, there were several things that I feel Karen Traviss overdid, but not nearly to the point that people are calling foul on.

Alright, I wrote a damn novel in another Glasslands thread where I touched upon a lot of the things that concern me. It was in reply to another person's post, so let me know if a few things are lacking context. ONI's powerThirty years of war doesn't just end that easily, and the people at ONI know that. In fact, ONI has more work than ever now that the 'official' fighting has stopped; colonies have gone dark, the Insurrection seems to be perking back up, and the lines between ally and enemy aren't clear at all.

We already have multiple pieces of evidence that, while there is now a cease fire between the Sangheili and the UNSC, the Arbiter doesn't speak for all of his species, and there is sure to be fighting amongst UNSC and former Covenant forces in the future. (Osman's crew wastes a group of marauding Kig-Yar without giving it a second thought.)

Some people may think that ONI is acting irrationally, but keep in mind that ONI doesn't see the war as over. In Ghosts of Onyx despite the revelations regarding the Forerunners and The Great Schism, significant factions, such as the Combined Fleet of Righteous Purpose, commanded by Imperial Admiral Xytan 'Jar Wattinree and later Voro 'Mantakree, clung to their beliefs and planned to continue their genocide of humanity.

Sabotage and subterfuge are exactly what ONI needs to be doing right now. By creating unrest amongst the Sangheili population, less focus will be aimed at finishing off the human race, as many of the Elites seem to want to do. Granted, they could just back The Arbiter's faction and be done with it all, but a lot of the story leading up to Hood and Thel's meeting suggests that very few people believed those peace talks would be successful.

The Arbiter seems to understand that the last thing his people need at the moment is a civil war, and it seems as though he wont lash out at his opposition violently unless it's in retaliation. By arming The Arbiter's dissenters, ONI is giving these uppity Sangheili a means to combat The Arbiter's forces, making their militant action and a Sangheili civil war a likely possibility.

If the Sangheili go to war, it'll give humanity time to rebuild and rearm for round two, should Sangheili dissenters overthrow the Arbiter. As the Arbiter warns Lord Hood on page 359, there are still hostile Sangheili factions; he never says anything about stopping them.

Why would he? He has enough problems regarding his own race that he needs to deal with.TimeframeI wish they would have spaced it out a little bit longer after the end of Halo 3, but whatever.

From the sound of it, the SPARTAN-IV Program is only in its beginning stages, so I don't really see it as an issue. "We've just approved an extension for the ONI budget so Margaret can complete her Spartan-Four program. Or yours, I should say, given the timeframe we're talking about." Lord Hood, page 355 "and we've had some Spartan-Fours our there for a while too" Black Box, page 422 The previous quote confirms the existence of S-IVs, but it doesn't say much of anything about their progress through training and the overall program. If ONI needed a budget extension for the S-IV program, I think it's likely that the candidates are still in their training/pre-augmentation/pre-armor days. From the sound of it, the most expensive part of the SPARTAN-II Project was PROJECT MJOLNIR. And despite the S-IIIs using inferior SPI armor, there's still mention in Ghosts of Onyx about the camouflaging technology being in its infancy (aka, expensive), and Kurt having to nag Ackerson about funding for armor improvements. Unlike previous Spartan projects, they're using consenting adults for this one, so while the project is undoubtedly already underway, the need for more money shows that it's obviously not complete.

As for the 'why,' again, ONI knows that the war isn't really over. Ackerson's whole plan with S-III was to send the Spartan concept into "production mode." It makes sense that they'd just start from scrap with a new program rather than continue with S-III, what with their project leader dying, the destruction of their base of operations, and the fact that everyone seems to have grown a conscience about the use of children for military projects. I think it's also worth mentioning the leap in medical technology from S-II to S-III; I don't remember there being any washouts during augmentation in S-III, as opposed to a staggering 50% in S-II. (Don't give me that crap against S-IIIs being inferior. Smaller, sure, but GoO implies that the augmentations they received improved on those the S-IIs got, especially with respect toward the whole not killing the patient part.)

Infinity, on the other hand, seems like it was left kind of ambiguous. Did they ever really give a definitive answer to how far along it was in construction? The whole thing begs the question of it being wise to invest in such a (seemingly) important project with The Covenant bearing down on Earth. Then again, who knows what the time frame regarding ONI receiving word of the Covenant's discovery of the location of Earth and the beginning of the project was.

  • 10.31.2011 6:57 AM PDT

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"Sometimes life gives you lemons, and then you have to say 'f**k the lemons' and bail."

If you're reading this, you need to stop stalking me. If you can't stop stalking me, you might as well go here.

Less than two months passed between the Fall of Reach and the beginning of the Battle of Earth. On page 422, Black Box mentions something about an Andrew Del Rio "driving" her for a few years. That right there confirms that the project had existed well before Reach fell. While humanity was never really in a good position during the war, anyone who was paying attention knows that the fall of Reach marked when the UNSC really started to scramble. The idea of "why the hell are they spending money on that when they're close to losing the war" didn't really apply at the time the project began. Despite Black Box saying that this Del Rio person had been "driving" Infinity around for years, if that statement is to be taken literally, all it says is that the vital sections of the ship are sealed from the vacuum of space and that it has some means of propulsion. What it doesn't imply is how close the ship is to being battle ready. Black Box mentions on page 421 that the budget was large enough where ONI had to disclose the existence of the project to ordinary, "woodentop," UNSC higher-ups. If I recall correctly, even the SPARTAN Programs were on a need-to-know basis in the beginning.

Battle of Earth or not, humanity isn't just going to send in the product of one of its most expensive projects if it's nothing more than a maneuverable chunk of titanium. Earth was a last stand in a sense, but Glasslands tells us that it was far from the last human colony. I'm going to make an assumption that, even without Earth, Infinity could make a difference elsewhere.
Outlook of the ElitesThe Elites are -blam!-. Some people may see a problem between the events of this story and when the events of The Return take place, but I think it just goes to further show how dire the Elites' situation is.

The Arbiter said it himself, there's likely to be UNSC and Covenant elements out in space that are still hostile: 30 years of interstellar war and genocide don't end that easily."There is dissent on Sanghelios, but as far as the forces I command are concerned, hostilities are over. I cannot guarantee that dissident factions will obey me and the situation in our colonies is equally unsettled, but nobody's interest is served by continuing this war when we have so many other problems." Thel 'Vadam, page 359.The Arbiter doesn't speak for all of Sangheilios, and we see right there in Glasslands that there are rogue elements in Sangheili society that don't agree with the path The Arbiter is leading them down.

It's a problem that, realistically speaking, isn't going to clear itself up overnight. Because of this, I don't see any problem in continuity between Glasslands and The Return.
Ragging on HalseyThis is all conjecture, but regarding Mendez, I can't help but feel he's been mulling over the morality of his actions for years. When approached with the SPARTAN-III Project, he could have still been in a state of denial. The events on Onyx, seeing those he worked so hard to prepare for battle die, it changed him. There was probably a time where he was disconnected enough from the eventual fate of his former trainees that he believed it was all for the greater good, but seeing them die first hand did him in.

The thing with Halsey is, while we know she feels immense guilt on the inside, she keeps up this "don't -blam!- with me" charade for everyone else. It's all about not looking weak, if you ask me. Hell, even after learning her own daughter had died, she tries to hold it in so her Spartans don't see her cry.

Catherine Halsey is still with what she's done. On one hand, she's feeling guilty and telling herself that she deserves any punishment she has coming, and on the other, she's trying to justify her methods to Parangosky, and asserting that she (Parangosky) has no moral high ground to stand on.

But if I could walk out of here now, would I? I want my matrydom, don't I? I've done appalling things. I shouldn't be allowed to get away with it. But it suited Parangosky for decades that I did. What's changed now? Dr. Halsey's inner monologue, page 429.So Halsey starts off by saying she wants matrydom; she wants to be punished for the Spartan project because its participants went on to save humanity, and in her punishment, she'll take credit for all of it. In the very next sentence, she admits to the horrible things she's done, and that she should suffer for that. Well, which one is it? Is she the savior of humanity, or is she a monster? Both Mendez and Parangosky see here trying to rationalize on both ends, and they hate her for that.

Halsey is still working her way to where Mendez is in terms of mental state from essentially where Parangosky's mind is on the matter, but she's still somewhere in the middle. She wants to look strong and set in her ways despite that she's neither. Margaret sees her as some weakling in denial, and Mendez sees her as some soulless -blam!- telling herself that it's okay to commit atrocities so long as it's in the name of the greater good. So, in her ever defiant way, Halsey puts on a front for her inner turmoil, and it causes both Mendez and Margaret to lash out at her.

As for Mendez, here he is, coming to terms and repenting for the terrible things he was involved in, and in strolls Halsey with her "don't blame me, it was for the good of humanity" mentality. Wouldn't that piss most people off?

It comes off as extremely hypocritical, but there's a rhyme and reason for it.

Parangosky is much more set in her ways than both Mendez and Halsey. She states herself that she doesn't seek any moral high ground in respect to her involvement in the Spartan Projects: she knows she approved unspeakable things, and she doesn't care. Parangosky is convinced that the immoral things she has to do in her position save the lives and consciences of others. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it with her.

Like she is toward Mendez, Halsey is coming off as very high and mighty to Parangosky, and it infuriates her. I think Margaret wants Halsey to know that she is no better than her. She saw the clones as a pathetic attempt to spare some feelings, and also misguided by the fact that it may have exacerbated the situation. (Naomi's mom killed herself; she probably wasn't the only one.)

We learn toward the end of the book that Parangosky intended on disclosing her entire involvement in the Spartan Projects before some sort of UEG board of inquiry, and these few quotes from her sum up her thoughts on her past actions perfectly:"I spend every day ending people's lives and manipulating them, doing things that most people in uniform would consider unconscionable. I'm not going to pretend there's some higher morality at work here, but I'm prepared to do the dirty work to spare the consciences of others, and my barbarous acts mean fewer people die than would have if I'd played by the rules. I think that's as near as I can come to tolerating my reflection in the mirror." Admiral Parangosky, page 431.

"State secrets are to protect society. They should conceal information like jamming frequencies, troop strengths, code words. They shouldn't be used to cover up our most bestial acts or save us from embarrassment. I've drafted a statement about my role in the Spartan program and I'll be handing it to the UEG's defense committee in due course. I'm going to die sooner rather than later, and I will not take this to the grave with me." Admiral Parangosky, page 434.

"I don't delude myself that there are moral ambiguities in my job. The things we did weren't ambiguous, not at all. I know I've done them and how bad they were, and if there's a hell, I'll probably burn in it before too long. But that's the kind of thing you can face when you're ninety-two. I'm prepared to do the very worst, and because I am, more people survive than get killed. But I'll take what's coming to me- and I'll make no excuses." Admiral Parangosky, drafting her evidence to the UEG Select Defense Committee, page 365.
And this creates an extremely interesting dynamic. You have Mendez on one side, who seems to be recently set in his ways of feeling guilty about his involvement, and he resents Halsey for being conflicted.

On the other side, you have Parangosky, who is convinced that their actions are justified in their overall benefit for humanity, and she also hates Halsey for being conflicted.

Parangosky is black.
Mendez is white.
Halsey is stuck in that grey area in-between, and everyone resents her for it.

I feel like Serin Osman has completely legitimate issues with Halsey. She sees it as Halsey having stolen her life from her, killed her, and then abandoned her. Learning of the clone that was returned to her parents in her place makes it so that Halsey actually killed her [i]twice[i]. However, it's not really as significant as the Halsey-Mendez-Parangosky dynamic. Well, I'm done for now; if you made it this far, thanks for reading. Hopefully those of you I've insulted in other threads now understand why I think the things you're complaining about are stupid.

[Edited on 10.31.2011 7:00 AM PDT]

  • 10.31.2011 6:58 AM PDT
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:)

Good read. :)

Don't really have much to add.

I have to admit though, I had a problem with the way Traviss emphasised what Halsey did was bad. Okay, it's a character driven story and it was always going to be addressed more than it had been in the past, but it tries too hard to make Halsey into the bad guy whereas no one cares that Chief Mendez not only trained the SII program that Halsey made up, but continued to train three companies of SIIIs, 99% of whom died while on suicide missions. Regardless of how Halsey acquired the SIIs, she treated them right during their lives. A 50% mortality rate is better than every single one dying on pointless missions.

And then the head of ONI being angry about clones? What is that? (Plus the ODST wanting to shoot Halsey? What a load of -blam!-).

Bits like that annoyed me. Also the fact that Mendez seems to think that asking a 6 year old if they want to fight the aliens who killed their parents was an actual form of consent and was better than what Halsey did.

[Edited on 10.31.2011 7:43 AM PDT]

  • 10.31.2011 7:18 AM PDT

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Posted by: jross1993
Good read. :)

Don't really have much to add.

I have to admit though, I had a problem with the way Traviss emphasised what Halsey did was bad. Okay, it's a character driven story and it was always going to be addressed more than it had been in the past, but it tries too hard to make Halsey into the bad guy whereas no one cares that Chief Mendez not only trained the SII program that Halsey made up, but continued to train three companies of SIIIs, 99% of whom died while on suicide missions. Regardless of how Halsey acquired the SIIs, she treated them right during their lives. A 50% mortality rate is better than every single one dying on pointless missions.

And then the head of ONI being angry about clones? What is that? (Plus the ODST wanting to shoot Halsey? What a load of -blam!-).

Bits like that annoyed me. Also the fact that Mendez seems to think that asking a 6 year old if they want to fight the aliens who killed their parents was an actual form of consent and was better than what Halsey did.


What Halsey did is bad.

You have to realize that from the perspective of those characters, they do not have the ability of the readers to see what characters are thinking, they are emotionally invested into the actions of their government, for some of those characters they still had to shoulder the burden of their actions, and naturally they'll all feel some form of guilt for their actions if they're involved.

The motivations for each character reacting as they did are so clearly defined and explained.

Why shouldn't the ODSTs react the way they did once they realize the government they fight for resorts to using people like Halsey to create child soldiers to violently suppress a dissident population? Hell there's an entire block dedicated to showing off Vaz's take on the matter making it crystal clear that Halsey's actions were an abomination to him. And as Vaz notes, while there are bastards that enabled, supported and worked under Halsey, she was at the head of all that planning and deserved the most ire as a result.

Also keep in mind as Margaret conducted her "interrogation" of Halsey. The clones were never part of the plan, and as it would so turn out the issue was not monetary but morally. For all the shady ruthless crap ONI does Parangosky still has her own version of a moral compass, and Halsey's actions of bringing in clones for "closure" on the parents end despite them being flawed hit a nerve for Parangosky. As a reader, it is not our place to say what is the better evil or not. Nor is the author even saying it is so. Halsey's justification for what she does is still consistent with past depictions. Just because it finally comes clashing with an opposing opinion hardly changes those actions at face value.


Realize that as readers, we have the luxury of knowing beforehand that the actions of characters will for the most part turn out for the best. Put yourselves in the shoes of the characters perceiving the information as it comes in after all they've been through to understand their point of view.

I get the feeling that a lot of people that feel that Halsey is being "vilified" more than usual are bias in a similar manner in which Blue team still tries to support her. That's fine and dandy as readers to pick sides, but it doesn't mean that other view points from the fictional characters within the book on the same person viewing the same actions can't think differently of it.

  • 10.31.2011 8:23 AM PDT
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The Seventh Column demands it.

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Yes, I was waiting for this.

It is far too easy to think the majority of the issues people have with the book stem from the difference in focus between Nylund and Traviss. Nylund writes what happens, and shapes his characters by their actions and reactions. Traviss prefers to have her characters have running dialog and ask themselves rhetorical questions in their heads. I don't think it's a superior form, but that's my opinion.

What is fact, however, is that she provided no new material for the characters and readers to wrestle with. And as most of the people buying Glasslands are fans of the universe already, they find the sudden moral implications Halsey and Mendez task themselves with incongruous with their prior character and the situation at hand. Why now does this come out? Halsey asked herself these very same questions many times in prior books, and Nylund tucked them safely away under "it's for the best."

And by every account it is. It's sound logic, a fact that nobody in this book seems to understand. We would not be here if not for the S2 project. The "war crimes" comitted are morally iffy, though nothing near approaching horrifying. They shaped kids that would have probably died when their planets got glassed into the warriors that saved both Earth and the Universe. Even the situation that prompted their creation in the first place was dire enough to provoke such a measure. This is not explored so then the reader takes the information for granted, therefore providing a bias against the very theme Traviss is trying to create and propogate as the one truth about the ordeal. It's a spin that became the focal point of the entire book, which is a problem when barely anything new happened. More on that last bit later.

The justifications Parangosky uses to detain and render irrelevant Halsey are lost on the reader. "She's now useless," so you would enact this measure of revenge that can only be described as petty? How exactly is she useless? It's always been shown that Halsey was working exclusively (with ONI's blessings) for the best interests of humanity--then her Spartans when things looked bleak--regardless of her attitude, though not quite the way ONI would like to have done it. Does that descrepancy between them justify this exile, while Halsey can still be remarkably useful towards the rebuilding of the human race? The reader is not given that information. Traviss got too wrapped up in petty squabbles and trying to bring about new feelings from old information.

The entire book felt drawn out. And everything would circle back to Halsey and her Spartans. We're given Vas to be the "what the average guy should think" character, which automatically makes him a one dimensional, throwaway character. His past is barely explored, and his motivations follow the same ODST motif. And furthermore, he's given the rundown and access to the files of the Spartan program with no context. It's even repeatedly stated that he doesn't even remember what it was like to not fight an alien, therefore obliterating the connection the Inssurrection has with the Spartan program. I've given this bit a pass because I think it's intentionally done to show how ONI manipulates people, shifting the blame of equally deserving ONI operatives solely on to that of Halsey. I'm taking a wait and see approach, hoping something comes out of it.

Miranda did not need to be brought up in this book whatsoever. At least not as a poor excuse to make Halsey cry. For a character as underutilized as Miranda, flashback scenes or more development of the icey relationship the mother and daughter shared would have been far more preferable to the one short letter we instead were offered. Could have consolidated the terribly boring Dyson Sphere scenes in order to make room.

Which brings me again to how Halsey was used in Glasslands. She did nothing. It took her half the time they were in the Dyson Sphere to transcribe some symbols to make out the word "garage." The rest of the time she was fighting with Mendez. That's the majority of my issue with Glasslands: A lot of nothing happened, and we were instead given a new spin on old information that provided little insight into character relationships and even less insight into what's to come on the horizon. You have this vast universe in front of you and you spend the majority of some tens of thousands of words repeating what Nylund covered in about a paragraph. The main theme of Glasslands is just an extrapolation of the same morality question, repeated tautoligically from different angles to con characterization out of it.

Let's keep count:

(1) We're given our very own spook in Osman to potentially give us insight into ONI, but she's instead a cardboard cutout of a character who seems to only exist to show that there is life outside the S2 program. Except nothing is explored on that front.

(2) Mendex provides justification for Traviss in the laughably obtuse sewer line. What do you mean you're outside of it? Twenty years working with Spartans conscripted under equally shady circumstances gives you the moral high ground to question Halsey's methods? Especially when you had problems that Halsey was so selective in the process and wanted to broaden the domain or candidates, therefore putting more children through the same process that so corrupted your conscience. C'mon, son.

(3) Halsey coming along for the ride, and Parangosky (and in extension Traviss) refusing to create a situation wherein she could explain to her Spartans just what the deal was, despite that it never occured to Halsey to do it while they were with Mendez and the S3s.

I can give some credit for the clone angle that Parangosky used to justify her stance. That was an interesting take on the process which at the time seemed unneccessary to me. I don't think entire "Halsey is bad" thing was terrible or irrelevant. It makes for an integral subplot. But it was both mishandled and too much of the focus of the book, when the much more interesting development of each species literally did not advance at all within the book. We got a neat little look into Sangheilli culture with the arum, but that's all she wrote. Literally.

There's a whole host of minor issues and personal gripes I had with the story. Least of not all the Sangheilli quoting human proverbs so regularly when everything about humans is supposed to disgust them. But in the grand scheme of things, Traviss took a universe and did little with it while trying her damndest to squeeze every bit of juice out of a moral dilemma which just didn't support a book. Especially when the entire notion was ridiculous to seasoned Halo fans used to much more in the way of universe and plot insight.

The most interesting revelations were the S4s and Infinity, which were both name-dropped with no additional information or hints to go on at all, and Venezia being the special hodge-podge it was shown to be. In past Halo books, those things would have been shown to us, not told to us. And that is the issue I think many, myself included, have with Glasslands.

[Edited on 10.31.2011 9:58 AM PDT]

  • 10.31.2011 9:48 AM PDT


Posted by: jross1993
Good read. :)

Don't really have much to add.

I have to admit though, I had a problem with the way Traviss emphasised what Halsey did was bad. Okay, it's a character driven story and it was always going to be addressed more than it had been in the past, but it tries too hard to make Halsey into the bad guy whereas no one cares that Chief Mendez not only trained the SII program that Halsey made up, but continued to train three companies of SIIIs, 99% of whom died while on suicide missions. Regardless of how Halsey acquired the SIIs, she treated them right during their lives. A 50% mortality rate is better than every single one dying on pointless missions.

And then the head of ONI being angry about clones? What is that? (Plus the ODST wanting to shoot Halsey? What a load of -blam!-).

Bits like that annoyed me. Also the fact that Mendez seems to think that asking a 6 year old if they want to fight the aliens who killed their parents was an actual form of consent and was better than what Halsey did.


I actually just kind of had an epiphany. Perhaps it's being emphasized so much (aside from the fact that that's how the characters are thinking and view the matter) is Traviss trying to get the fans to realize, at least in part, that Halsey's actions are morally questionable. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should hate Halsey or anything, but it kind of seems to me like a lot of the Halo fans out there don't really realize that what Halsey did was not a good thing, even if her actions did pay off in the end.

I think all Traviss is trying to do is make for a better character driven story, and to actually get the fans thinking about the moral issues of the whole Spartan Program.

  • 10.31.2011 10:18 AM PDT

"Even when they're kidnapping children from their homes in the middle of the night to enact an illegal campaign of murder against a separatist group who only want their independence"

The rebels were far from innocent. Nuking millions of innocent civilians, killing an entire UNSC crew over nothing more then an accident...

My problem with Halsey being hidden away cause the flash clones is that it shows Maggie as being utterly stupid.

The Flash clones allowed the families to move on, and prevent investigations into the missing children. Those could have exposed ONI, or raised more questions when ONI forceably shuts them down. I believe Halsey states that in Fall of Reach. "That many children going missing would raise questions."

So in all, Halsey actually covered for ONI and prevented any questions being raised, as the Children were there instead of missing. But that fact's ignored.

Then Mendez and Halsey... Ugh. Wasn't Mendez described as "Being privileged" to train the Spartans? And now he hates that he was involved. This viewpoint would be more realistic if it happened between the S2's and alpha company S3's, instead of four separate Spartan groups. If anything, Mendez is the far worse character here morally. He's sent 600 Kids, possibly more, to their deaths as Spartans before any reached Adulthood, many even before they became teenagers. I'm sorry but Halsey has the moral high ground there. And him not sure if he resents having to share rations to keep Halsey alive? Come on, WAY TO MUCH sudden hatred.

Oh, speaking of the ODSTs, The one KNEW the S3's were suicide soldiers, yet still didn't think badly of ONI(as far as I could tell in the glimpse I read)? He thinks Halsey is a big bad that should be murdered, but ONI is fine?

I'll read the rest of your review soon, but I'm putting in my base comments.

  • 10.31.2011 11:12 AM PDT

Wake me when the jews are gone.

other thing that is BS is that Osman said the spartan IIs had no choice but i dont remenber Jonh seing anyone back down in the FoR

  • 10.31.2011 11:24 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

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Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: jross1993
Good read. :)

Don't really have much to add.

I have to admit though, I had a problem with the way Traviss emphasised what Halsey did was bad. Okay, it's a character driven story and it was always going to be addressed more than it had been in the past, but it tries too hard to make Halsey into the bad guy whereas no one cares that Chief Mendez not only trained the SII program that Halsey made up, but continued to train three companies of SIIIs, 99% of whom died while on suicide missions. Regardless of how Halsey acquired the SIIs, she treated them right during their lives. A 50% mortality rate is better than every single one dying on pointless missions.

And then the head of ONI being angry about clones? What is that? (Plus the ODST wanting to shoot Halsey? What a load of -blam!-).

Bits like that annoyed me. Also the fact that Mendez seems to think that asking a 6 year old if they want to fight the aliens who killed their parents was an actual form of consent and was better than what Halsey did.


I actually just kind of had an epiphany. Perhaps it's being emphasized so much (aside from the fact that that's how the characters are thinking and view the matter) is Traviss trying to get the fans to realize, at least in part, that Halsey's actions are morally questionable. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should hate Halsey or anything, but it kind of seems to me like a lot of the Halo fans out there don't really realize that what Halsey did was not a good thing, even if her actions did pay off in the end.

I think all Traviss is trying to do is make for a better character driven story, and to actually get the fans thinking about the moral issues of the whole Spartan Program.


It really is. The book itself is not trying to write Halsey off as a villain. It's just that now there are characters put in that see Halsey from a completely different perspective.

The Spartans under her still give her the benefit of the doubt even after knowing that they can see their files (none of them choose to, instead an ODST named Vaz reads one of their files which is what infuriates him and gives him a terrible impression of Halsey) and see just how her decisions affected their childhood lives. Obviously some others in the top military brass knew what Halsey was up to and didn't damn her like Keyes and Stanforth.

The only people that "hate" Halsey are:

Osman - A Spartan II washout who was crippled to the point that she was not expected to ever walk again, but ONI rehabilitated her. The extent of her anger toward Halsey is still not clear though she is certainly angry at what the project as a whole meant and what it did to the families of her fellow Spartans as well a the condition she was initially left in after the augmentations.

The four-man crew of the Stanley - Of which their anger stems from reading the files for the SII project which included the layout of how the kids were kidnapped, intensely trained, then experimented on with augmentations. Their actual anger towards Halsey herself varies.

----
One of the crew, Mal, shows disgust at the concept of child soldiers from the get go before even knowing the full extent of the project. But there's barely any comment on what she thinks of the woman as a person other than what she did was wrong.

Phillip and academic does not show hatred toward Halsey at all really, but still considers the baseline of the project to be morally wrong and is more so shocked that his own government would approve the project.

Devereaux shared the same initial shock as the crew in general about how the IIs were initially child soldiers, but ultimately wasn't phased too much by the overall moral complications.

Of the crew, Vaz is the one that truly hates Halsey. From the get go he's shocked to hear about how the IIs were child soldiers and relates to resorting to it as very wrong. The type of wrong that would land you in Nuremberg if the UNSC lost the war and were prosecuted. Once he learned more of the project he was further infuriated and related Halsey's and those that followed her orders to other historical figures who did wrong things in the name of accomplishing some end and got away with it. This is further worsened by Vaz getting more and more interested in the Spartan Naomi. When she asked him to read her file it pretty much cemented his view point on Halsey after he read how her mother killed herself thinking her genes would only breed severely flawed children. Her father on the other hand smelled a government conspiracy and tried to be vocal about it only to be ignored. Ironically, he turns up later as an Innie ...the very thing the SII project was meant to eradicate.

---------

Parangosky - Then of course there's her. For the longest time in the book it's made clear she's out to get Halsey but it's never said why. When she finally catches her it's for one simple thing. Unbeknownst to her, Halsey had made clones for what she already felt as some way to show humanity in this regard. When confronting her, Parangosky made it perfectly clear that both their moral standings were skewed in their own ways, but Halsey's actions regarding the doomed clones were a misguided attempt and a risk more than anything. Given the situation regarding Naomi's father suspecting government activity it's certainly a risk Parangosky has justified to herself. Beyond that though, she doesn't give a damn what else Halsey is up to as long as it doesn't interfere with ONI projects.


Now people think the Mendez thing came out of left field, but all things considered it doesn't. As Mendez himself states, he tried to put away the guilt and shame of doing what he did when training the IIs. When he proceeded to train the IIIs his personal excuse that made it right in his mind was that in comparison to the IIs, the IIIs were willing volunteers who were motivated and knew what they wanted. The only reason those feelings stay bottled in until Halsey came along was precisely because Halsey came along. Remember, after the training phase of the S-II project was over, Halsey would never see or hear from Mendez again until Ghosts of Onyx, and even then they were too busy trying to survive to initiate any long chain of conversation. Their peaceful time in the sphere gave them the time to do nothing but talk. And it was during that time she intentionally and in many regards also unintentionally provoked Mendez into venting everything out.

Perhaps it is lost on some people, but a lot of people who are enraged at Mendez being ticked off at Halsey fail to mention that Halsey started to poke and prod Mendez into giving her an answer as to why he worked on the IIIs without telling her. It's only natural considering Halsey's characterization for wanting to know. Not only that, but considering that she's been on the trail for information regarding ONI's Spartan III class ever since she was done with the II's initial training (as was noted in her journal) it makes it all the more plausible that she would squeeze that information from the only man left to have overseen the III's training. But she did not make any attempt to approach the subject in a tactful way which is what led to the blow out confrontation after minor irritations.


Minor answer after minor answer (initially Mendez simply responded that he was following orders to keep it shut, then later remarked he wouldn't have told her anyway) Halsey did not relent. Not only that, but every opportunity she got she criticized the S-IIIs harshly for being made substandard in comparison to the IIs. From the lack of genetic screening, the fact they were still kids when deployed, the aggressive augmentation that Kurt put in for Gamma, etc she couldn't gently say anything about the IIIs which slowly but surely enraged Mendez.

At one point Halsey started to blame Lucy's rash behavior on Kurt's drug and just spouted out in Mendez's face how much of a liability the IIIs are as a result. Of course, Halsey didn't realize those augmentations applied only to Gamma. Yet, despite the mistake and presumptuous attitude, she still has time to tell him that Lucy still isn't fit for combat because of being mute.

From there it became mudflinging with semantics, but the build up and reasoning behind the conversation was present and justified.

---------

So there's no real curveball regarding Halsey. There is no gross exaggeration of existing actions, there is no new obscure action Halsey conducted that is now suddenly biting her in the ass, there is nothing different with her as a character nor is she being elevated or lowered into something different. There is just merely some characters that now acknowledge said actions and react in appropriate ways given the situation and individual character doing the reacting.

  • 10.31.2011 11:34 AM PDT

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Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
"Even when they're kidnapping children from their homes in the middle of the night to enact an illegal campaign of murder against a separatist group who only want their independence"

The rebels were far from innocent. Nuking millions of innocent civilians, killing an entire UNSC crew over nothing more then an accident...

Flawed argument. Spin it how people will, but ultimately the old saying of two wrongs do not make a right holds here. It does not justify right either if someone else struck first. Just because the Innies nuked a planet doesn't suddenly mean that kidnapping children and performing illegal genetic modifications on them is legal and just. Escalation, sure. But to imply that the SII project coming after the bombings make the project itself morally right is simply wrong.

My problem with Halsey being hidden away cause the flash clones is that it shows Maggie as being utterly stupid.

The Flash clones allowed the families to move on, and prevent investigations into the missing children. Those could have exposed ONI, or raised more questions when ONI forceably shuts them down. I believe Halsey states that in Fall of Reach. "That many children going missing would raise questions."

And the revelation in Glasslands is that the clones were never part of the plan to begin with. As Mal or Vaz states, the kidnappings were so spread out and isolated that no one planatary agent could make the connection if kids just suddenly went missing. As Parangosky points out, the act seems more in line with Halsey soothing her own conscience which would not be out of character for Halsey. To top it off, there already exists one concrete case where the clone tipped a parent off to a government conspiracy which can be used as valid proof that Halsey's action were an unnecessary risk.

So in all, Halsey actually covered for ONI and prevented any questions being raised, as the Children were there instead of missing. But that fact's ignored.

It's confirmed that Naomi's father raised questions, but was ignored. Now he's resorting to planning a bombing on UNSC territory. His motivation for his action is to fight a government that he believes kidnapped his daughter and indirectly caused his wife to die. Go figure.


Then Mendez and Halsey... Ugh. Wasn't Mendez described as "Being privileged" to train the Spartans? And now he hates that he was involved. This viewpoint would be more realistic if it happened between the S2's and alpha company S3's, instead of four separate Spartan groups. If anything, Mendez is the far worse character here morally. He's sent 600 Kids, possibly more, to their deaths as Spartans before any reached Adulthood, many even before they became teenagers. I'm sorry but Halsey has the moral high ground there. And him not sure if he resents having to share rations to keep Halsey alive? Come on, WAY TO MUCH sudden hatred.

From the get go, he said that line to the Spartans, not to Halsey. There's already a big difference there because as their instructor he has to keep a solid face for them. As for their arguments you seem to have missed the point of them. As Mendez tries to relate to Halsey, the IIIs in his mind felt like real soldiers to him. That's his excuse. Unlike the IIs, they weren't kidnapped. Instead, they were individuals who volunteered for the position and were motivated to kill the Covenant like any other soldier. The book isn't saying which one has the moral high ground, it's just a natural clash between two viewpoints trying to justify their own actions against each other in a normal fluent argument. Also it isn't "sudden hatred". Mendez expected to get questioned by Halsey once there was a lull, and Halsey eventually did in the most untactful way possible over the course of the many days they were in the sphere constantly.

Oh, speaking of the ODSTs, The one KNEW the S3's were suicide soldiers, yet still didn't think badly of ONI(as far as I could tell in the glimpse I read)? He thinks Halsey is a big bad that should be murdered, but ONI is fine?

Both ODSTs were clearly disturbed by the revelation that the UNSC government resorted to child soldiers to fight a civil war against other humans. The one ODST who truly hated Halsey was Vaz who already had preexisting views on single figureheads who were allowed to do morally questionable things and were not stopped. In addition to that, he was personally invested with Naomi and had become good friends with her at that point. After reading her file and seeing how her family was screwed up among other things of course his discontent and anger at Halsey grew, but at the same time his anger was directed at all the staff members involved who enabled her. He went so far as to memorize the name of the staff in the project file so he'd know whenever he came across one of the bastards. He even considered Mendez to be one and was weary of him despite Medez's reputation as a soldier, and went so far as to outright ask him in his face why he didn't bother disobeying Halsey when he trained the II's. While he may have a special place in his heart for Halsey he still blames everyone. ONI as a whole included.


I'll read the rest of your review soon, but I'm putting in my base comments.


[Edited on 10.31.2011 12:04 PM PDT]

  • 10.31.2011 12:02 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

The Jora 'Konaree cut out character as the post war Sangheili point of view was pretty disappointing; my only gripe with what I have seen so far. And before someone roasts me with "They don't all think the same!", I know that. That is made abundantly clear in the old canon. My point is that surely a different point of view would have been better in this new time period? Surely it exists in significant amounts, as they must have a conscious against slaughtering so many people in a war that was previously hinted to be disagreeable with the Sangheili at a deep level. Throw in a few other things regarding respect for worthy adversaries as a long standing part of their culture, their weakening beliefs in the promise of the Covenant and their ultimate pursuit of honour and truth over everything else and it was wholly disappointing to see almost none of that in the time period when it was expected that it should be coming out of the closet.

I doubt the Sangheili utterly lack empathy and a conscience; a race of psychopaths would not get very far as a species, yet the point of view we get is someone who is, evidently, a psychopath who is willing to butcher and butcher without bound. It gave us nothing new, and I do not know why we really needed it again over something else. Perhaps I am naive in this respect but I cannot necessarily see how 30 years of war must lead to an exponentially increasing curve of hatred for the side who are ordered to commit genocide. It seems as though they got jaded near the end. The lack of contention or fresh perspectives hints that all the subtle hints dropped to us about the Sangheili's true feelings about the war were simply ignored.

What would have gotten me into it would have been if the assembly of Elders in chapter 2 actually disagreed more over the war and their opinions of it and of their circumstances. All we got was Jul saying the usual. The opportunity for the reader to see these differing opinions, and to take a side in this story thread, was missed.

  • 10.31.2011 12:23 PM PDT

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Posted by: MGTrey
What is fact, however, is that she provided no new material for the characters and readers to wrestle with. And as most of the people buying Glasslands are fans of the universe already, they find the sudden....
Whoa whoa whoa...sudden? Halsey said it herself: what's changed? There was no retcon toward the SPARTAN-II Project. Everything that happened in The Fall of Reach holds up in this book. The difference, we're seeing more than just Halsey and the Spartans' take on the matter.

How are you going to say she provided the readers "nothing new to wrestle with" in one sentence, then in the very next bring up the moral implications?

1) In what world would nobody question the illegal abduction and involuntary military conscription of children? Not to mention the untested surgical augmentations that left nearly half of them dead.

You can argue that it's "for the greater good" all you want; that's kind of the point. (No new things...pssh!)

2) If you want me to be literal with your "no new things" statement: S-IV, Infinity, Sangheili Dissent, Jul being exiled to the shield world, Phillips' dire situation on Sangheilios, and all the fallout of Spartan Project details possibly going public.

And why were they only mentioned, as you say? Probably because the book was already 400+ pages. You can ask why they didn't package ODST and Reach as the same game, despite them being in production at the same time: because they're contractually obligated to. ($$$) I don't remember anyone ever saying that Glasslands was meant to tie up all loose ends and act as an epilogue for Halo 3; the plot elements that you think were left unresolved were done that way for either the new Halo trilogy or upcoming novels.

Anyone who thinks that's an objectionable business practice needs to get real. We would not be here if not for the S2 project. The "war crimes" comitted are morally iffy, though nothing near approaching horrifying."Morally iffy? What? I like how the characters have an easier time admitting that they've done horrible things than the readers.
They shaped kids that would have probably died when their planets got glassed into the warriors that saved both Earth and the Universe.20/20 hindsight. Nobody knew the Covenant War would happen when the Spartans were created. The end result in no way justifies the dubious means they used.Even the situation that prompted their creation in the first place was dire enough to provoke such a measure.Their original intent failed. The Insurrection was never completely put down, it only took a back seat to a greater threat.This is not exploredThat contradicts your first few statements; the moral implications were the exploration. Why do you think we get the perspectives of people who weren't even around during the Insurrection? Even in the aftermath of The Covenant War, hardened veterans, newly-recruited ONI operatives nonetheless, get a sick feeling in their stomach when learning the truth of the Spartan Program.

It was a major theme in the book. How did it get past you?It's a spin that became the focal point of the entire book, which is a problem when barely anything new happened. More on that last bit later.There was no spin. Just because Nylund couldn't be bothered to explore it doesn't mean it wasn't right there in front of us. Again, what changed? The only thing that restricted us from grasping the entire morality of the Spartan program was that we never really saw it from anyone other than Halsey or an S-II's perspective. Everyone seemed fine with it because nobody knew the details, it was just "UNSC Super Soldiers wipe out Covenant Armada, save millions, everyone cheer."Traviss got too wrapped up in petty squabbles and trying to bring about new feelings from old information.You're going to blame Traviss for Nylund's failure to write anything other than "blah blah military jargin. bang bang. exploding head. technobabble. super soldier! " How is it her fault that Nylund writes weak characters?
The entire book felt drawn out. And everything would circle back to Halsey and her Spartans. We're given Vas to be the "what the average guy should think" character, which automatically makes him a one dimensional, throwaway character. His past is barely explored, and his motivations follow the same ODST motif.He served his point, didn't he? He had more depth to him than any character (sans Halsey) from the original novels.It's even repeatedly stated that he doesn't even remember what it was like to not fight an alien, therefore obliterating the connection the Inssurrection has with the Spartan program.Uh...yeah, that was kind of the point. The Insurrection was dwarfed by
the Covenant War. Even knowing what he did about the Spartans' achievement against the Covenant, he was still disgusted by the details.I've given this bit a pass because I think it's intentionally done to show how ONI manipulates people, shifting the blame of equally deserving ONI operatives solely on to that of Halsey.Oh, there's no doubt in my mind that it's a combination of a scapegoat and Parangosky's personal vendetta, but that doesn't exactly mean they're wrong in who they're scapegoating.Miranda did not need to be brought up in this book whatsoever. At least not as a poor excuse to make Halsey cry. For a character as underutilized as Miranda, flashback scenes or more development of the icey relationship the mother and daughter shared would have been far more preferable to the one short letter we instead were offered.While your idea would've been nice, they couldn't just not bring her up at all.Which brings me again to how Halsey was used in Glasslands. She did nothing. It took her half the time they were in the Dyson Sphere to transcribe some symbols to make out the word "garage." The rest of the time she was fighting with Mendez. That's the majority of my issue with Glasslands: A lot of nothing happened.You're really not disproving my "all you guys want is mindless action" stance by saying stuff like that.Nylund covered in about a paragraph.Yeah, and that's not exactly a good thing. Nyland only covered it in a paragraph, when he could have taken the route Traviss did. He was obviously aiming for action more than story, but heh, different strokes.same morality question they find the sudden moral implicationsYour words, in context.
(1) We're given our very own spook in Osman to potentially give us insight into ONI, but she's instead a cardboard cutout of a character who seems to only exist to show that there is life outside the S2 program. Except nothing is explored on that front.
You're given a story revolving around a group of undercover ONI operatives on a black ops mission to spark a civil war among an alien race, and then go on to arrest ONI's Chief Scientist for war crimes. There was plenty of insight into the workings of ONI in this book. What did you expect, a step by step diagram of ONI's military hierarchy? A book of individual data drops that address every loose end in Halo canon?

What did you expect? Explosions?
(2) Mendez provides justification for Traviss in the laughably obtuse sewer line.You didn't read my OP very well, did you?
(3) Halsey coming along for the ride, and Parangosky (and in extension Traviss) refusing to create a situation wherein she could explain to her Spartans just what the deal was, despite that it never occured to Halsey to do it while they were with Mendez and the S3s.What deal? The Spartan program? What's there to explain, they were there for it.
The most interesting revelations were the S4s and Infinity, which were both name-dropped with no additional information or hints to go on at all, and Venezia being the special hodge-podge it was shown to be. In past Halo books, those things would have been shown to us, not told to us. And that is the issue I think many, myself included, have with Glasslands.Infinity and S-IV will probably be the main focus of a completely separate installment, and weren't just brought up without reason.

[Edited on 10.31.2011 12:30 PM PDT]

  • 10.31.2011 12:24 PM PDT


Posted by: Primo84
I've been mulling this over for a few days now, and I've finally reached that point where my posts have been ignored enough that I need to just demand to be the center of attention for a few minutes and create my own thread.



As rather unfortunate as this is to say, welcome to the universe forum, where drastically different opinions on a topic are ignored or flamed.

Anyway, I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the strengths where others somehow see weaknesses. You put it into a much more organized context then I ever could, but this is what I've been trying to say all along, really.

The only thing I do not agree with in the OP is Eric Nylund going totally Bayhem with Halo. First Strike was written by him, and it was that one of the more morally grey books in the series, the the Chief having to make some hard decisions regarding Johnson's fate compared to that of humanity. Not anywhere near Traviss' level of work, but Nylund definitely was more morally aware then your OP appears to give him credit for.


Posted by: Primo84
Infinity, on the other hand, seems like it was left kind of ambiguous. Did they ever really give a definitive answer to how far along it was in construction? The whole thing begs the question of it being wise to invest in such a (seemingly) important project with The Covenant bearing down on Earth. Then again, who knows what the time frame regarding ONI receiving word of the Covenant's discovery of the location of Earth and the beginning of the project was.



I got the impression it was at least functionally operational; the Captain (can't remember name) had been test flying it around the Ort cloud for a while apparently, implying it's quite a ways into its construction if its alreay in testing phases. Infinity must have been being planned very early or midway into the war, also meaning that the ONI may have gotten something out of the Onyx Skeleton Crew they left on the planet after all.

  • 10.31.2011 12:55 PM PDT

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Posted by: anton1792
The Jora 'Konaree cut out character
Yeah, I was a bit disappointed with what was more or less the same old Sangheili perspective.

I like the Civil War angle that's being played out, and I really don't think they'd be able to successfully portray that without making one of the dissenters a main character, but some perspective from the Arbiter's side would have worked well.

Not even the Arbiter himself, just a Sangheili that shares his view. Always saw humans as worthy adversaries, jaded over the loss of his religion, feels guilty after thirty years of genocide, etc.

I get Jul's perspective, but it should have been balanced out by another character.

  • 11.01.2011 7:57 AM PDT
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Posted by: Primo84

I don't get into the habit of engaging in piecemeal quote wars because it inherently takes points out of context.

First let me say that I grasped the theme and intentions of the book quite well, and I do not contradict myself in the case of Halsey and Mendez becoming consumed with their sudden reaction to the moral implications of the Spartan II program. As I said before, it has been touched on, and Traviss added no new wrinkle--no new information in order to bring forth more second guessing. Because she retreads over information most fans are very much intimate with, it seems the two characters overreact to the point of breaking out of their character molds.

This makes for boring, unfulfilled rhetoric. And it's doubly ingratiating that it's the main theme of the entire book. So many gadgets and gizmos and new discoveries are pushed aside or left unexplored to drudge up an old morality question that feels dated because it is not renovated; it's merely put back on display. Every new character added to the Haloverse by this book was for the express purpose to juxtapose what most already thought about the S2 program with an opposing view. Which is not in itself a bad idea; it's a rather decent one as I've said before. My main issue with the book however is that none of the characters grow as a consequence of this moral dilemma. Even Nylund, whose brevity with the topic is much cited in this discussion, used this very same moral dilemma to fuel Halsey to save her S2's and as many of the others as she could. It gave her a purpose in GoO. The only purpose it serves in Glasslands was to have her confront Parangosky and to focus negative attention from the support cast towards her.

It's fine to have one dimensional characters. I'm not expecting great things from the likes of Mendez. I found his reaction a bit offputting, though ultimately forgivable. But to re-examine the same issue as before, using the same amount of depth that prior authors used, while adding nothing new and extrapolating the conflict makes Glasslands seem drawn out and unnecessary by comparison. I don't demand intense action at all times. But if you're going to forego that, along with universe development, new discoveries, plot consistency et al, then your characterization better be aces.

And Glasslands failed on that front, in my opinion. What it ultimately amounted to was confirmation that yes, people would care about that kind of stuff. Normal people who aren't intimately involved within the project itself, and even a minority who were. The entire book was dedicated to hammering that point home. Did this single touchstone deserve all the attention at the expense of so much more?

I say no. Which is why Glasslands is one of my least favorite in the series, because its one gimmick overstayed its welcome and didn't stir the pot.

Also, your points about monetization of the story is irrelevant. I can only review what's here in front of me. To deny me important details and hold off certain foreshadowing elements so that I buy the next book reflects negatively on the book I do own, therefore legitimately decreasing its literary value. Keeping stuff out to cash in later still makes for a worse-off product in the present, and my opinion reflects that. I would think you would want the leading book to be as good and complete as possible, so people don't get the feeling they're being carrot-sticked, but that's just me.

[Edited on 11.02.2011 11:59 AM PDT]

  • 11.02.2011 11:52 AM PDT

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You can sit there and say "I understood the book" all you want; everything you're saying points to the contrary.

The moral implications of the SPARTAN-II Program were always there, just poorly explored. Traviss went there, and presented the perspectives of characters other than Halsey. It added depth, whether you acknowledge it or not.

It's okay that you like your Halo fiction shallow, but try not to fault the author for your reading preferences.

  • 11.02.2011 12:32 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

I don't understand why it is so wrong that people don't like the book because they don't like how it was done. If everybody said yes to everything then there wouldn't be room for improvement and we would all be literally be fan boys.



I feel that karen should have offered both sides to halesy "dilemma" instead of everybody hating on her in the book. I also feel that it should have been for another reason rather than the clones all because one paranoid parent thought something was up.


I also feel that both sides of the elite issue should have been addressed. Karen's book was written from a one-sided angle to the point i might dub it "The Black book of Halo" because everything is so negative and forceful.

  • 11.02.2011 12:40 PM PDT

Don't worry, you can't hurt me.

Parangosky should have been arrested by ONI Section 3. She revealed the SPARTAN-III program, which was to never see the light of day... EVER. Parangosky would have been shut down quickly by Section 3 because the SPARTAN-II program was originally used to fight the Insurrectionists. They would have wanted these projects to continue. Not hunt down and kill the mastermind.

  • 11.02.2011 12:43 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Primo84
Not even the Arbiter himself, just a Sangheili that shares his view. Always saw humans as worthy adversaries, jaded over the loss of his religion, feels guilty after thirty years of genocide, etc.

Absolutely. Or at the very least, simply have Jul be challenged by others with differing beliefs than him when he travels around. Actually showing that these others exist and in what proportions they do would have helped. It honestly felt like Thel was a one man army sort of, ideologically on his own with others simply refraining from continuing the war out of practical reasons. I thought Levu was on the Arbiter's side, but he is only there because he believes that the Sangheili cannot wipe out Humanity cleanly. As he said, it is not that he wants peace with Humanity.

[Edited on 11.02.2011 12:51 PM PDT]

  • 11.02.2011 12:50 PM PDT

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Posted by: grey101
I don't understand why it is so wrong that people don't like the book because they don't like how it was done.
Because the basis of most of your arguments (you as a collective) are built on things you absolutely missed while reading the book.

At this point, I don't think anyone actually read my original post in this thread.
I feel that karen should have offered both sides to halesy "dilemma" instead of everybody hating on her in the book.This. This right here is why I can't take any of your arguments seriously. The main focus of this book went completely over your head.

It DID offer both sides! Every Halo novel up to this point only showed one side, Halsey's! I don't understand how this is so hard to grasp. Is it because they don't agree with Halsey's methods?

People aren't morally absolute in real life. If the government of any country kidnaps children for any reason, it's going to raise some eyebrows.
I also feel that it should have been for another reason rather than the clones all because one paranoid parent thought something was up.I'm hope that's not what you think all of the hate against Halsey was about, because there was a lot more there than that.I also feel that both sides of the elite issue should have been addressed.I agree. everything is so negative and forceful.My face when reading that.

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  • 11.02.2011 12:52 PM PDT

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Posted by: Shadowless Shan
Parangosky should have been arrested by ONI Section 3. She revealed the SPARTAN-III program, which was to never see the light of day... EVER. Parangosky would have been shut down quickly by Section 3 because the SPARTAN-II program was originally used to fight the Insurrectionists. They would have wanted these projects to continue. Not hunt down and kill the mastermind.
Parangosky is the head of ONI; she calls the shots. By her own logic, yeah, maybe she should have been arrested.

I'm pretty sure Parangosky only answers to Lord Hood and possibly a few other UNSC brass, and even that is debatable. As for ONI, Parangosky is the top of the department hierarchy.

[Edited on 11.02.2011 12:56 PM PDT]

  • 11.02.2011 12:55 PM PDT
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Posted by: Primo84
You can sit there and say "I understood the book" all you want; everything you're saying points to the contrary.

The moral implications of the SPARTAN-II Program were always there, just poorly explored. Traviss went there, and presented the perspectives of characters other than Halsey. It added depth, whether you acknowledge it or not.

It's okay that you like your Halo fiction shallow, but try not to fault the author for your reading preferences.


For however condescending you get, you seem to not practice what you preach. I acknowledged this point multiple times in both of my posts, though it's best summarized here:

What it ultimately amounted to was confirmation that yes, people would care about that kind of stuff. Normal people who aren't intimately involved within the project itself, and even a minority who were. The entire book was dedicated to hammering that point home. Did this single touchstone deserve all the attention at the expense of so much more?


Yeah, the moral implications always where there* (and were touched upon fleetingly in First Strike and served the basis of Halsey's motivations in GoO (funny that nothing of that magnitude happens in Glasslands)), but all Traviss did was introduce characters who knew as much about the S2 Project as us, the readers, and sometimes less, and have them react negatively towards it. And that was roughly the entire book. Osman's feelings toward the project itself is rather neutral considering how much animosity she harbors towards Halsey.

And you've not defended the average-at-best characters, unengaging and inconsistent "main" storyline, the very bare additions to the lore, and you've even admonished the poor use of the Sangheili. It's funny you marked Nylund down for his characterization when he actually had them do something, and shape their personalities and relationships thus, whereas Traviss makes hers ask rhetorical questions to themselves to round them out.

Apparently harping on the same premise Nylund introduced, though this time through ignorant and through anti-Halsey biased eyes, makes for enough material to balance all of the aforementioned negatives, in your opinion. And anyone who doesn't share said opinion just doesn't get it. Quite a lazy argument.

*And addressed in prior books by both Mendez and Halsey (whom the point was about, exclusively), which is why fans are wondering where all this extra guilt is coming from considering that nothing feasible has changed. It's incongruent to a jarring degree with their past characters.

[Edited on 11.02.2011 3:37 PM PDT]

  • 11.02.2011 3:28 PM PDT
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Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

So because we have a different opinion of the book we don't get it? You could say that about anything really.

Morally, Halo is mostly grey. The UNSC has some fascist elements, the Innies are terrorists, the Covenant was misled by their religion, the Forerunners were willing to go to the extreme, and the Flood is evil. Morally, I would say Halsey has the high ground. She ruins the lives of 75 children and their families and then tries to offer the parents some form of closure with the clones.

Let us look at the Insurrectionists. They were willing to nuke a colony and kill millions. They also killed hundreds more in various minor attacks. Is the kidnapping of 75 children outweighed by the wrongs the Insurrection has committed? I would say yes. What is stopping them from nuking another colony and killing another few million? And before you say that was a one time thing, remember that the Insurrectionists were able to get their hands on several more nukes in Ghosts of Onyx. Let's assume the war didn't happen. They would still want their independence and they also have several nuclear bombs. How many of those bombs do they need to detonate before the Spartan project becomes morally justifiable?

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Posted by: Xd00999
So because we have a different opinion of the book we don't get it? You could say that about anything really.

Morally, Halo is mostly grey. The UNSC has some fascist elements, the Innies are terrorists, the Covenant was misled by their religion, the Forerunners were willing to go to the extreme, and the Flood is evil. Morally, I would say Halsey has the high ground. She ruins the lives of 75 children and their families and then tries to offer the parents some form of closure with the clones.

Let us look at the Insurrectionists. They were willing to nuke a colony and kill millions. They also killed hundreds more in various minor attacks. Is the kidnapping of 75 children outweighed by the wrongs the Insurrection has committed? I would say yes. What is stopping them from nuking another colony and killing another few million? And before you say that was a one time thing, remember that the Insurrectionists were able to get their hands on several more nukes in Ghosts of Onyx. Let's assume the war didn't happen. They would still want their independence and they also have several nuclear bombs. How many of those bombs do they need to detonate before the Spartan project becomes morally justifiable?


They're aware of this, and Primo is mostly arguing that the notion that Halsey is a villain is merely present and explored gives the book much more character-driven story elements. I find the implementation arkward and redudant; that it hardly promotes interesting or even noticeable character progression, especially within already established characters. Lucy does get some interesting impact from Halsey, but not because of the S2 project, but because of how Halsey can be seen as a bully. But unfortunately, that's apart from the moral implications angle.

As for whether it was justified, there's little argument that it was. Everybody knows the act was wrong in and of itself (there's no argument there, as well), but it worked, and it was necessary, given the events of the time and exponentially in hindsight.

[Edited on 11.02.2011 6:13 PM PDT]

  • 11.02.2011 6:11 PM PDT

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Posted by: MGTrey
What it ultimately amounted to was confirmation that yes, people would care about that kind of stuff. Normal people who aren't intimately involved within the project itself, and even a minority who were. The entire book was dedicated to hammering that point home.
Your marginalization of their perspective doesn't void its significance. You're making it sound as if the other characters were civilians (whom I think would judge Halsey even more harshly).

At least give credits where it's due; we're talking about ODSTs. Hardened soldiers that belonged to an elite outfit and lasted through the war. The significance is that, despite all the battles they've fought, all the horrible things they've seen in a conflict that undoubtedly dwarfed what originally led to the creation of the Spartan Program, and they still object to the methods used.

And that says a lot.Did this single touchstone deserve all the attention at the expense of so much more?
Why dwell on a hypothetical? We can argue until we're blue in the face about what aspects of the Halo universe could have been done better and should be better elaborated and so on. The reality is that we got Glasslands, and I feel you're horribly underestimating what I felt were its strong points.

Normally, I wouldn't care; to each his own. But every damn time I see a thread on it, for every few people that have bothered to read the book, there are several people who can't think for themselves, that despite not having read the book, are hanging on the naysayers' every word.
Yeah, the moral implications always where there* (and were touched upon fleetingly in First Strike and served the basis of Halsey's motivations in GoO (funny that nothing of that magnitude happens in Glasslands)And? Again, all we get is Halsey's inner monologue. (I don't remember anything between Halsey and Mendez in GoO; it you could refresh my memory, that'd be great.) Sure, Halsey feels guilty, but she's never going to hold herself at the same level as others see her.Osman's feelings toward the project itself is rather neutral considering how much animosity she harbors towards Halsey.Toward the project? Of course not. The project is just that, a project. Sure, you can hate the idea of it, but where does that get her? She sees Halsey as being behind the project (whether all the blame is deserved or not; I'm not absolving Parangosky), and is therefore the root of all her pain and suffering.

It makes much more sense to hate Halsey directly.
And you've not defended the average-at-best characters, unengaging and inconsistent "main" storyline, the very bare additions to the lore, and you've even admonished the poor use of the Sangheili.And why would I? You said it yourself, they're average. What is there to say?

I'm defending the points I feel you've misrepresented/misunderstood.It's funny you marked Nylund down for his characterization when he actually had them do something, and shape their personalities and relationships thus, whereas Traviss makes hers ask rhetorical questions to themselves to round them out.What things does Nylund have them do? What do we learn about the Spartan psyche until he introduces Kurt? Apparently harping on the same premise Nylund introduced, though this time through ignorant and through anti-Halsey biased eyes, makes for enough material to balance all of the aforementioned negatives, in your opinion.So you'd rather her pull a Nylund and continue to introduce new characters and environments and not take the time to develop them?Quite a lazy argument.My argument is in the original post.

You haven't even attempted to discuss any of my suggestions as to why the characters behaved in the way they did. You completely ignored anything I said in favor of attacking a straw man.It's incongruent to a jarring degree with their past characters.What is inconsistent about Mendez's representation? His character was barely explored up until this point.

And again, and I'll defend this point until my dying breath, who the hell cares what Halsey has to say about herself? It's going to be biased no matter what.

  • 11.02.2011 6:24 PM PDT

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