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  • Subject: Q/A with Karen Traviss on Halo Glasslands
Subject: Q/A with Karen Traviss on Halo Glasslands

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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaronI'm going to link this thread, but I don't expect much to come of it. I try to rationalize Mendez's behavior in the original posts(s). (Although it ultimately gets ignored.)

Long story short: I think Mendez has always questioned his actions, but doesn't ultimately come to terms with how -blam!- up the things he's doing are until he's fighting alongside his young trainees, watching them die.

Being inside the Dyson Sphere offer something none of the Onyx survivors had experienced before: time to reflect. Mendez is grappling with the morality of the things he's involved himself with, and here comes Halsey, torn between "I did this for the greater good" and "I'm a monster" on the inside, but stubbornly wearing a mask that only implies the former on the outside.

Halsey is Mendez's catalyst.

  • 11.05.2011 11:27 AM PDT

Difference, Germany could rebuild, they could reopen tank factories (If they wanted) and still pump out guns and tanks.

The Elites cannot. They can't even maintain their own ships. (Germans could still fix their cars after all).

So it's one trying to prevent somebody who could rebuild their forces if given the chance, compared to somebody suppressing a group that can't even rebuild or repair their own ships right now.

  • 11.05.2011 12:45 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: anish panchalin
The only reason Germany could build up again for WW2 was that Hitler took over and gradually broke the conditions of Versailles and Neville Chamberlain's appeasement policy allowed him to do that without any League of Nations (similiar to the UN at this time) interference.

What treaties are preventing Sangheilios from becoming self-sufficient? You have said it yourself here, Hitler got Germany back on its feet by breaching this treaty which was evidently stopping Germany from regaining its former power. Sangheilios has no treaty imposed on it yet it still remains in a dire situation. Germany still had a diverse workforce with varying skills. It still had Engineers, scientists, doctors and whatnot. Sangheilios does not. Imagine if Germany at the end of WWI was all soldiers and practically nothing else with no other skill sets. That is what Sanghelios faces.

The issue with the Sangheili is simply that they have no technical knowledge to build advanced technology. I would imagine that they would struggle to maintain even todays society (Which is like Tier 5 or something) given their circumstances. Who is going to derive Maxwell's Equations for them for them? Who is going to teach them how to fabricate semiconductors and build complicated transistor circuits to create computers? How are they going to cure a plague as bad as Ebola Zaire if such a thing ever became a pandemic on Sanghelios? Who is going to teach them about slipspace, and how to access it? How developed is their mathematics? They must of had this stuff before, but they have lost it all now. It is unfathomable to even begin to contemplate where to even begin in their situation. They are truly screwed.

I'm not attacking ONI's actions btw. I can see way they are doing this now. The Sangheili may be screwed, but does ONI know that they are screwed? They probably don't know how bad it truly is.

  • 11.05.2011 1:35 PM PDT

Yeah, but those were conditions forced upon them by others. They still had the knowledge of how to repair/build/etc.

The elites have none of those restrictions forced upon them by the UNSC, but are there still.

  • 11.05.2011 1:37 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: anish panchalin

Posted by: Xd00999

Posted by: risay_117
save things for halo 4 to make a huge debut which will give huge life to the halo new trilogy

That is true, but I would like to have a good lead up to Halo 4 that leaves me wanting for more.


Cryptum should have already given you this good lead up should it not have? I don't know about you but the mention of the Timeless one and the mystery of the precursors leaves me wanting more and I think Greg Bear is a masterful writer.Also, as wolverfrog said, I think glasslands is an introductory scene setter for post-war times, prepararing and giving reasons for factions to show or not to show up in the reclaimer trilogy.

I think Cryptum was a good example of a Halo book. Some parts rubbed me the wrong way but it was good overall. However, Glasslands was made out o be the book that would have most of the connection to Halo 4.

  • 11.05.2011 7:31 PM PDT

yas334229812


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Yeah, but those were conditions forced upon them by others. They still had the knowledge of how to repair/build/etc.

The elites have none of those restrictions forced upon them by the UNSC, but are there still.


not true if you look at germany during peace time they had huge advancement, some of the greatest scientist came from there even before the rise of the -blam!-.

All -blam!-'s did was remove the other problems like the treaty of versails. Germany from the beginning had some of the most talented workforce.

The sangheili do not have this they have only soldiers and they have a hard time farming, which is really bad, their workforce has no talent, only militaristic ability. No ability to progress in other forms.

  • 11.05.2011 7:48 PM PDT
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Posted by: flamedudeI just think the Halo world, and particularly someone like Parangosky, is made of tougher more cynical realistic stuff. She, above anyone else, would understand that during times of war hard decisions must be made. Military commanders would do it all the time, condemn people to their deaths to save time, find intel etc. She should understand this tradeoff.

Suddenly getting on her moral high horse about the clones...... I just think Traviss doesn't quite get the Halo world. It's not all peaches.


??? The impression I got from Glasslands was that Parangosky was more upset over the fact the Halsey lied to her about the cloning, as well as the fact that the cloning was completely unecessary and could potentially lead to some major problems (such as a certain Insurrectionist leader...?)

Parangosky doesn't have a high horse. Halsey just screwed up one too many times--and wasn't a team player.

That being said, Karen Traviss has a habit of taking "We do what must be done if we are to survive" arguments, turning them on their head, and ripping them apart when they were never a central issue in the storyline anyway.

Post war scenarios ARE generally when all the critics come out of the woodwork and tell people how they should have done their job better, so this novel accurately portrays that anyway...as well as the lack of epic large scale conflicts...

I'm sure I had a point here... ... ...

I don't think anyone can seriously argue that Halsey was completely justified in all of her actions. Some of those actions were necessary, not all. And necessary or not, they were all unethical.

Anyway, Halo Glasslands is a postwar novel. In the middle of a war ethics, morals, and ONI covert ops are all secondary concerns (close enough). The only thing that really matters is survival. Take the war away, and you get Glasslands.

Basically I think that Glasslands did a lot more right than people are giving it credit for. I think its a good book. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

  • 11.16.2011 2:37 PM PDT

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Posted by: Astronut7
??? The impression I got from Glasslands was that Parangosky was more upset over the fact the Halsey lied to her about the cloning, as well as the fact that the cloning was completely unecessary and could potentially lead to some major problems (such as a certain Insurrectionist leader...?)


Margaret is the head of the Office of Naval Intelligence, I find it hard to believe she didn't know about the clones. Really hard. Also, the cloning was completely necessary. Sure, 75 kidnappings throughout the colonies would go unnoticed, it's a lot of space.

But 75 kidnappings that occurred after children were either interviewed directly or "parent's looking for a school for their son/daughter" coincidentally at the school of the kidnapped children appeared is very fishy. And after all that, ONE person got suspicious. And ironically, it's Margaret who will potentially reveal everything after letting the Spartan reconnect worth their parents, not the Innie leader.

  • 11.16.2011 3:08 PM PDT

I've just finished Glasslands, and I've got to say; it might just be my favourite Halo book yet. I find the idea of a 'cold war' of sorts springing up after the great war fascinating, and completely believable. You've officially got humanity trying to broker peace with the Sangheili and vice versa, but behind the scenes the spooks are trying to undermine the enemy.

The fascinating thing is that unlike our post-WWII cold war, the Sangheili are completely ignorant in espionage. Jul's discovery of its value in this book is definitely setting up something in the future. But right now, ONI has the upper hand because although the Sangheili may be the better warriors, we're the best at playing dirty and that's exactly what the situation calls for right now.

So we've got Parangosky, a woefully under-developed character by Nylund who was fleshed out wonderfully in this book. This 92 year old who makes grizzled ODSTs quake in their boots; she knows she's going to hell if there is one, but she's determined to keep the rest of humanity out of it. People in this thread are saying she's on a high horse; she's really not. She knows she's just as bad as Halsey, but the difference between the two is that Parangosky knows fully that she's done some terrible things that can't be forgiven -- Halsey's still lying to herself.

The team she assembles irritated me a little at first because it seemed like they came out of no-where, but over the course of the book I grew attached to them and now I regard them just as fondly as Fred, Kelly, Mendez or any other beloved book character. BB especially was a highlight -- he's like the anti-thesis of Cortana, who tries to delude herself into humanity whereas he knows full well what he is, although I think over the course of the book it frustrates him a little. BB is definitely being set up for a confrontation with Cortana at some point, or something like it.

Naomi was wonderfully humanised, something I don't think Nylund ever truly managed to do aside from maybe with Kurt. It was a joy to see the armour come off the Spartan and see her not just work with the rank-and-file but also bond with them, especially Vaz. Quite a touching if unorthodox relationship formed there and I'd love to see it carried on. I think Mal was a little underdeveloped, but still great all the same.

Phillips was another highlight; he's one of the only humans who would be sorry to see the Sangheili go extinct, and it makes for a fascinating character as he wrestles with the morality of what he's doing for ONI. When Thel offered to put him up on Sanghelios, I felt a little thrill -- the evolution of what I thought would happen after Halo 3 when Hood took Thel's hand carried on nicely. His ability to solve Arums is something interesting and I think it means more than at first immediately apparent.

Mendez and Halsey were a little different to how I remembered them, but it didn't feel like an unnatural evolution; for so long they'd been in war, and able to justify all their actions because colonies were falling and their abhorrent acts were stopping that -- once the bullets stop flying though, then they think about what they've done and that causes some serious tension, which was explored realistically and beautifully. People here defend Halsey -- really, was she any better than the -blam!- scientists? Perhaps not as cruel, but arguably almost as inethical -- it's not even like she created the Spartan IIs to combat the Covenant, it was to fight other humans, some of whom were only wanting independence from the UNSC. That's inexcusable, and she deserves to be arrested as much as I can sypathise with some of what she did.

Mendez was done very well in this book, expanded beyond the drill sergeant we'd seen in Nylund's works. It's easy for him to say nothing when the Spartans he trains go to fight and turn the tide of war, but when he's left with them isolated from all that then wherever he looks he sees a mirror of what he's done, and it disgusts him. Some say he's unnecessarily hostile to Halsey, and that's true. I think he holds contempt for her, but a lot of his hostility in Glasslands is projection of the loathing he has for himself too.

I liked seeing the Spartans presented as vulnerable here, it made for an interesting change-up. For once they weren't the masters of their element -- they thought for the first time upon just what had happened to them. Halsey had kidnapped them as children, left their parents with dying clones and brainwashed them into the ultimate soldiers, and this is the first time they really see past that indoctrination and realise that what was done to them wasn't right, even if it did save lives.

The part where we hear about how Naomi's mother killed herself after the clone died made me actually loathe Halsey for a moment, and ironically although Halsey created the Spartan II project to combat insurgency her actions have sparked another as Naomi's father, convinced that his daughter was part of a conspiracy seems to want to bring down Earth; I think what he really wants to do is find the truth, though.

That's going to escalate into some amazing conflict in later books in this series, and I can't wait to see it. Traviss has set up some wonderfully tantalising hooks for the future of the Halo universe, and I can't wait to see them explored.

The only part I felt the story sagged was on Sanghelios; I wasn't gripped by 'Telcam and his entourage the same way I was the ONI team and those in Trevelyan, but one part I adored was when Hood visited Sanghelios and casually brokered perhaps the most important meeting in human history with the Arbiter.

All in all, when going into this my expectations were low due to all the hatred I'd seen on these forums and elsewhere. I've never read any of Karen Traviss' works before aside from Human Weakness, and so I didn't really know what to expect.

What I got was an amazingly tense novel full of intrigue and thankfully devoid of the dull fighting Nylund loves to weigh down his books with to appeal to the mindless dullards who love reading about explosions and soldiers shooting weapons.

My interest in the Halo universe was lower than ever, and Cryptum did little to change that. But after reading Glasslands, I consider myself well and truly a Halo fan once more.

I can't wait to see what Traviss does next with the Halo universe, and how all the open-ends in Glasslands tie into Halo 4 and future installments.

I know I'm in the minority on this forum with that view, but it's mine. There were a couple of moments in the story that didn't sit right with me (like ex-Covenant integrated into Venezian society, for example,) but in general it held true to the Halo universe and then some, expanding the bland character templates of Nylund and throwing some true moral ambiguity in there to contrast against his rather black and white painting of the universe.

Loved it.

[Edited on 11.20.2011 2:14 PM PST]

  • 11.20.2011 2:12 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

Having finally finished the book, I have to say that it was better than I expected. Some parts were poor in my opinion.

1. Halsey as Mengele. No, just no. This comparison was brought up several times and I hated it each time. Halsey did some bad things, but Mengele was a hundred times worse. Do you know what Mengele did? He experimented on over 1500 pairs of twins; only 100 survived. An Auschwitz prisoner named Alex Dekel has this to say on the man:
I have never accepted the fact that Mengele himself believed he was doing serious work - not from the slipshod way he went about it. He was only exercising his power. Mengele ran a butcher shop - major surgeries were performed without anesthesia.Once, I witnessed a stomach operation - Mengele was removing pieces from the stomach, but without any anesthetic. Another time, it was the heart that was removed, again without anesthesia. It was horrifying. Mengele was a doctor who became mad because of the power he was given. Nobody ever questioned him - why did this one die? Why did that one perish? The patients did not count.He professed to do what he did in the name of science, but it was madness on his part.
This is what Halsey is compared to. Was it ever mentioned that Halsey spent a long time working on the enhancements to make sure they were as safe as possible? Nope. Halsey is an evil -blam!- Scientist. And the ODSTs were getting all worked up over her cloning her brain for Cortana. Why is that such a huge issue? It is a cloned brain, she didn't go out into the streets , kill a scientist and steal their brain, but they are treating it like she did.

2. Venezia. More of a minor complaint this time; Venezia is mentioned several times as being BAD, BAD, BAD. The back of the book makes it seem like it would be a major plot point, and some of the dialogue gives this impression as well. But no, Venezia is saved for the last 10 pages and doesn't even do anything aside from act menacing. The book proclaims "everyone's loyalty will be tested". Nowhere did I see loyalties being tested; only a single character going "OH NO!".

3.The Spartans. I hated how Traviss handled some of the Spartans in this novel. Some, like Lucy, were done well but others, like Ash and Olivia, were done horribly. At the end of GoO, it seemed like Ash would be a larger character in the next few novels. Not a full main character, but at least an important supporting character. However, thanks to the intense focus on Halsey, Mendez, and Lucy, the others roles were so negligible you could remove them from the novel entirely and it would still be pretty much the same. I don't think Ash even had 5 lines of dialogue.

  • 11.20.2011 2:58 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

Another thing about Halsey doing horrible experiments. I found a quote that sums up my opinion on the matter quite nicely:

[...], if you let me put my thumb on the utilitarian scales, I can get you to agree that you have an affirmative moral duty to torture a three-year-old child to death.

I think the scales were weighted in Halsey's favor, both during the Insurrection and during the War. They just became less grey when the latter rolled around.

  • 11.20.2011 3:30 PM PDT

yas334229812

This thread is still alive, wow and anyway hope everyone got over it.

  • 11.20.2011 5:19 PM PDT

Posted by: Wolverfrog

People here defend Halsey -- really, was she any better than the -blam!- scientists? Perhaps not as cruel, but arguably almost as inethical -- it's not even like she created the Spartan IIs to combat the Covenant, it was to fight other humans, some of whom were only wanting independence from the UNSC. That's inexcusable, and she deserves to be arrested as much as I can sypathise with some of what she did.


I'll probably agree with you about almost everything else you've said once I've read the book, but I can't agree with this point at all.

Halsey was a thousand times better than and of the Nahtzi "scientists", they tortured prisoners pretty much for -blam!-s and giggles and there was hardly any science involved in it. They treated those they experimented on horribly and didn't even try to make their experiments even remotely humane, such as Macharius pointing out that they didn't use any sort of anesthesia on their prisoners for their experiments.
Sure Halsey's actions for the Spartan II program have a ton of stuff wrong with them, but they were not anywhere close to anything the Nahtzis did. They didn't even pull anything remotely beneficial or useful from their "science" experiments!

Humans who were blowing up thousands of innocent civilians (at the least) almost every week who would have had sympathy for or supported the Insurrection's goals (in fact before the groups that became the Insurrection turned violent many people did support their goals and motives to at least some degree) if the latter weren't a bunch of terrorists who weren't even truly targeting the military or government anymore but attacking anything they could to try and make a point. And it's not like the UNSC is some brutal dictatorship that throws you in a gulag for even looking at them the wrong way like Soviet Russia. The Insurrectionist were not innocent or noble people at all, whatever motives they might of had for what they did, Insurrection are no better than the likes of Al Quaeda, they weren't even a proper revolution or resistance, they were nothing more than terrorists.

However morally reprehensible it might have been, the Spartan II program was needed. I really don't get why anyone has sympathy for the Insurrection :/ I mean sure I can empathize with their goals, but that is as far as I will ever go, I don't hold any respect or love for them. They were not noble people, I mean blowing up a diner or attacking civilian space liners packed with people around Reach or other planets? Really? How are these noble people just wanting freedom? All their actions were just distancing people from them and making them hate them and their cause, and I'm talking about the civilian population here.

As much as I acknowledge and admit that the Spartan Program was not a good thing morally, I think a lot of the flak thrown Halsey's way is really undeserved. She may have been the one to be put in charge of the Spartan II project, but even if she had refused to do it, ONI would have found someone else (possible much worse *cough*Ackerson*cough*) to run it, 'cause the actions of the Insurrection were only getting worse and there was no end in sight.

  • 11.21.2011 9:58 AM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Wolverfrog
People here defend Halsey -- really, was she any better than the -blam!- scientists? Perhaps not as cruel, but arguably almost as inethical -- it's not even like she created the Spartan IIs to combat the Covenant, it was to fight other humans, some of whom were only wanting independence from the UNSC. That's inexcusable, and she deserves to be arrested as much as I can sypathise with some of what she did.


Ah yes, the same "independence wanting" humans who showed no qualms with nuking a colony, hijacking UNSC ships and murdering the crew and nuking popular PUBLIC establishments just to kill maybe a few CMA or UNSC personal.

  • 11.21.2011 10:19 AM PDT

If I may point out. It's frankly ONI's fault that Naomi's mother died and her father went mad.

If they had handled it better, it'd be fine.

Such as having one of them be a doctor there, explain how this genetic defect is extremely rare, BUT can be treated in future children easily should they frequently do check ups.

There, the mother isn't worried about future children suddenly getting sick and dying (because of the 'defect') and the dad doesn't scream conspiracy because the doctors aren't just shoving him aside.

Also, this is slightly rude, but am I seriously the only -blam!- person who noticed Philips solving the Arum to NOT be an amazing thing? It contained a message from 'Telcam for Philips, it was clearly rigged to be easier so the message is guaranteed to be read before it's too late. Philip's guard IIRC outright went "You must've cheated.", and wasn't it of the style that's harder then normal?

  • 11.21.2011 10:48 AM PDT

I believe the Arums are derived from some Forerunner puzzle, and so Phillips inherently had some genetic instinct in solving it much in the same way John knew how to activate the light bridge on Halo.

I don't think humans are that much smarter than Sangheili, even an academic like Phillips.

  • 11.21.2011 2:34 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Wolverfrog

I don't think humans are that much smarter than Sangheili, even an academic like Phillips.


We are since we actually took the time to understand the Space around us and develop technology accordingly.

The Sangheili Have spent eons with technology they do not understand have haven't even tried to. You can't honestly say that wouldn't have a major impact on them.

A perfect example would be them currently driving around in wrecked revenant's and ghosts. Even the most average adult would have some knowledge to repair a car or atleast jerry rig it for a bit they don't even have that.


AS for the Arums don't think too much about it not every little thing is forerunner related. It is no more than an alien rubex cube.

  • 11.21.2011 3:01 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Wolverfrog
I believe the Arums are derived from some Forerunner puzzle,

And your reasoning for this is...?

  • 11.21.2011 3:04 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Wolverfrog
I believe the Arums are derived from some Forerunner puzzle,

And your reasoning for this is...?


Do you know me at all? Near-baseless conjecture is the name of my game. It's what's fun about the Halo universe to me; just putting together the facts and reaching a final statement isn't exciting, it's work. I do enough of that sort of thing at school.

Thinking outside the box and making wild guesses is where the true fun lies.


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Wolverfrog

I don't think humans are that much smarter than Sangheili, even an academic like Phillips.


We are since we actually took the time to understand the Space around us and develop technology accordingly.

The Sangheili Have spent eons with technology they do not understand have haven't even tried to. You can't honestly say that wouldn't have a major impact on them.

A perfect example would be them currently driving around in wrecked revenant's and ghosts. Even the most average adult would have some knowledge to repair a car or atleast jerry rig it for a bit they don't even have that.


You find an island populated by primitive natives who've lived using basic tools for thousands of years due to few resources. Give them electricity, reservoirs, computers, weapons -- you think they're going to bother making their own stuff then?

That doesn't mean they don't have the capacity to do that; there's just no inclination. If all that technology you give them is suddenly taken away after thousands of years, then they've got to find that motivation and creativity.

It'd take time, but it doesn't mean they can't do it.

[Edited on 11.21.2011 3:19 PM PST]

  • 11.21.2011 3:15 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

....


  • 11.21.2011 3:18 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101
....




I disagree.

  • 11.21.2011 3:22 PM PDT