Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Q/A with Karen Traviss on Halo Glasslands
  • Subject: Q/A with Karen Traviss on Halo Glasslands
Subject: Q/A with Karen Traviss on Halo Glasslands
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Wolverfrog

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Wolverfrog
I believe the Arums are derived from some Forerunner puzzle,

And your reasoning for this is...?


Do you know me at all? Near-baseless conjecture is the name of my game. It's what's fun about the Halo universe to me; just putting together the facts and reaching a final statement isn't exciting, it's work. I do enough of that sort of thing at school.

Thinking outside the box and making wild guesses is where the true fun lies.


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Wolverfrog

I don't think humans are that much smarter than Sangheili, even an academic like Phillips.


We are since we actually took the time to understand the Space around us and develop technology accordingly.

The Sangheili Have spent eons with technology they do not understand have haven't even tried to. You can't honestly say that wouldn't have a major impact on them.

A perfect example would be them currently driving around in wrecked revenant's and ghosts. Even the most average adult would have some knowledge to repair a car or atleast jerry rig it for a bit they don't even have that.


You find an island populated by primitive natives who've lived using basic tools for thousands of years due to few resources. Give them electricity, reservoirs, computers, weapons -- you think they're going to bother making their own stuff then?

That doesn't mean they don't have the capacity to do that; there's just no inclination. If all that technology you give them is suddenly taken away after thousands of years, then they've got to find that motivation and creativity.

It'd take time, but it doesn't mean they can't do it.



The only difference is that the elites use to have an empire based off their own technology and massively downgraded due to a war.

The Elites do have the brains to re-learn all of that it is going to take a long time for them to do so though.

People wonder were humanity would be today if it wasn't for "The Dark Ages" which lasted 500-600 years?


So for the Elites to be in that state for thousands of years is going to have an affect on them.

  • 11.21.2011 3:29 PM PDT

So... you're basically arguing against yourself, now. Nice one, saves me time.

  • 11.21.2011 3:32 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

No i am talking to you whether you can respond or not is all you.

you don't spend anytime here anyway so i don't see what you are saving it for.

  • 11.21.2011 3:38 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

I think it is sort of missing the point of the Arum in the story. Sangheili are evidently not good as solving them. Your everyday Sangheili, like Levu, has only opened it once or twice in their entire lives and presumably the ones that did so in a few days were their greatest minds.

I sort of viewed it as showing Humanity's creative spark and intelligence in contrast to the Sangheili and the other races, and its potential for the future. The Flood cure was not borne from a Gea (Or however you spell it) and memory implantation, it was borne from pure innovation and genius under pressure; from non-linear thinking which is why it eluded the Forerunner. I feel this has always been an underlying theme, and that the Arum in the story was showing this potential (That no one else evidently had when the Flood ravaged the galaxy) and also allowing the Sangheili to see Humanity's potential. Having it simply be due to it being based on Forerunner designs, thus explaining why Humans can solve it more swiftly than any Sangheili has been able to, sort of cheapens the idea of Humanity being reclaimers imo.

If it was to be implied that Forerunner designs were behind it all, then I think Traviss would perhaps of made this clear by having Philips comment on the usual feelings of familiarness that Humans normally get around Forerunner technology when he held the Arum.

  • 11.21.2011 3:40 PM PDT

Your discourse isn't great. Saving what for?

  • 11.21.2011 3:41 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Wolverfrog
Your discourse isn't great. Saving what for?


neither is your attention span if you can't talk to me and stay on topic at the same time.

I wouldn't know you said "it saves me time".

  • 11.21.2011 3:47 PM PDT

It's not my fault you can't understand standard English properly. I merely meant that you basically provided a counter-argument for your own claim that humanity are more intelligent than the Sangheili, by saying that the latter have the same potential as humanity and they've just been unable to realise it after being inducted into the Covenant.

My attention span's just fine, cheers, but I do appreciate your concern all the same.

  • 11.21.2011 3:51 PM PDT

Why hello there.

Microwave ovens are quite large.

WORT, WORT,WORT!

-NUMS!

I'm pretty interested after reading all these reply's. I think I'm going to order it on Amazon right now.

  • 11.21.2011 3:56 PM PDT


Posted by: me123456789
I'm pretty interested after reading all these reply's. I think I'm going to order it on Amazon right now.


I thought you'd already read it. It's a good book, you'll like it.

  • 11.21.2011 3:58 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Wolverfrog
It's not my fault you can't understand standard English properly. I merely meant that you basically provided a counter-argument for your own claim that humanity are more intelligent than the Sangheili, by saying that the latter have the same potential as humanity and they've just been unable to realise it after being inducted into the Covenant.

My attention span's just fine, cheers, but I do appreciate your concern all the same.



If i didn't understand "standard English" (Which should be Basic English) then i wouldn't be responding.

I didn't provide a counter example other than an example being ignorant for eons is going to have a genetic affect on you. Everything has potential that gets limited in which the covenant limited the Sangheili.

I wasn't concerned nor do i care.


seriously if it takes years for them to solve that kid of puzzle something must be wrong with them. most humans would finish a cube in days in not a week or two. The smart ones finish them in seconds.


That is a huge difference.

  • 11.21.2011 3:59 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101
"standard English" (Which should be Basic English)


I study English Language at an advanced level and I'm bloody good at it, not to blow my own trumpet. My knowledge of this language and its intricacies obviously far outstrips yours, so I'd climb down from that non-existential high horse you're trying to get comfy on.

I didn't provide a counter example other than an example being ignorant for eons is going to have a genetic affect on you. Everything has potential that gets limited in which the covenant limited the Sangheili.

I wasn't concerned nor do i care.


seriously if it takes years for them to solve that kid of puzzle something must be wrong with them. most humans would finish a cube in days in not a week or two. The smart ones finish them in seconds.


That is a huge difference.


"That kind of puzzle." I didn't realise you had an Arum, maybe I didn't see it because it's wedged up your arse? And like I said, I think there's a reason why humans can solve it quicker than Sangheili but it's just pure conjecture. I don't think Sangheili are any less intelligent than humans, they're just accustomed to not thinking outside the box the Covenant made for them and it will take a while for them to break that habit.

Regarding me 'not being here,' I've been on this forum for years so I'm not sure what you're getting at. I haven't been here recently because after Reach my interest in the Halo universe fell to an all-time low and it's only recently that I've begun to enjoy it again and catch up on what I've missed.

I'd also be interested to hear where you got the idea that being intellectually suppressed would have a genetic impact from, and if you have a real-world example to support that claim. Evolution/devolution doesn't take effect in any significant way in just a few thousand years. Your biology seems to be as poor as your English.

[Edited on 11.21.2011 4:12 PM PST]

  • 11.21.2011 4:08 PM PDT

Again, a custom made Arum with the crystal inside containing a message for Philips specifically.

How can that not be clear that if anything, it was MADE to be solved quickly.

I doubt 'Telcam would put the message in an Arum it'd take in weeks(or maybe a year) to figure out.

  • 11.21.2011 4:23 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

I think that humans are just more accustomed to puzzles than Elites. We have rubrics cubes, logic puzzles...all sorts of games that challenge the mind. With the Elites being a military culture first and foremost I think this is a case of Klingon scientists not getting respect. Elites never struck me as a culture that valued the intellectual side of things, preferring to show dominance through military might. It is possible that Arums are harder for them because they have less experience with those sorts of puzzles.

Or maybe they are really, really hard and Phillips is a genius with them.

  • 11.21.2011 4:26 PM PDT

I don't know, 'Telcam seemed like a paranoid bloke. He took the trouble to write the message in English so few Sangheili could read it, and I think he put it inside a hard Arum (believing in Phillips' ability to solve it) to further make sure it would not fall into Sangheili hands.

  • 11.21.2011 4:27 PM PDT


Posted by: Wolverfrog
I don't know, 'Telcam seemed like a paranoid bloke. He took the trouble to write the message in English so few Sangheili could read it, and I think he put it inside a hard Arum (believing in Phillips' ability to solve it) to further make sure it would not fall into Sangheili hands.


That's a lot of assuming. Wasn't it one of his own men who delivered it?

And, given that they never looked up to humans much in the book, putting it in the hardest Arum possible (the way I see it) would just mean Philip's is unlikely to get the message in time.

Hence my theory, that Arum was probably rigged so Philip's could solve it easier.

  • 11.21.2011 4:38 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Wolverfrog
I don't know, 'Telcam seemed like a paranoid bloke. He took the trouble to write the message in English so few Sangheili could read it, and I think he put it inside a hard Arum (believing in Phillips' ability to solve it) to further make sure it would not fall into Sangheili hands.


That's a lot of assuming. Wasn't it one of his own men who delivered it?

And, given that they never looked up to humans much in the book, putting it in the hardest Arum possible (the way I see it) would just mean Philip's is unlikely to get the message in time.

Hence my theory, that Arum was probably rigged so Philip's could solve it easier.

But also remember that Phillips had received a reputation for being a genius with the Arums. Even if Telcam had hid the message in an easier Arum the other Elites would still have had a lot of trouble solving it. He probably just chose a random Arum and sent it to Phillips.

  • 11.21.2011 4:41 PM PDT

Okay, I didn't read that part of the book admittedly, but I still doubt he grabbed the hardest one of the bunch :P.

  • 11.21.2011 4:51 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Okay, I didn't read that part of the book admittedly, but I still doubt he grabbed the hardest one of the bunch :P.

Once more I suggest the option that the Arum was extremely hard and Phillips is a genius when it comes to solving those puzzles.

  • 11.21.2011 4:53 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Wolverfrog
I'd also be interested to hear where you got the idea that being intellectually suppressed would have a genetic impact from, and if you have a real-world example to support that claim. Evolution/devolution doesn't take effect in any significant way in just a few thousand years. Your biology seems to be as poor as your English.

It most certainly can. Do you have a dog? Or a cat? Domestication is an example of forced evolution producing relatively rapid psychological changes in a species. The Farm-Fox experiment, started by the geneticist Dmitry K. Belyaev in 1959, showed that artificial selection for benign traits in animals can produce fairly notable psychological changes in them within the lifespan of a Human being. His experiment lasted for 40 years and by the end of it he had turned foxes who were reclusive and aggressively defensive towards Humans into far more benign and friendly creatures, almost as trusting as dogs, by selectively breading only those that appeared to be the least fearful of Humans in the group. By the end of it, his researchers had changed the psychology of the group. They only selected for tameness, nothing else.

Grey's claim has more weight to it than you give it credit for I think. I do disagree with it in saying that it is due to them not having bothered keeping an active intelligencia over the millennia though. I think it would be due to their eugenics program. They allow any infant who is not sufficiently large enough at birth to die of childhood diseases. (Think Sparta) Then they commit young Sangheili to war games which are designed to weed out the weaker ones. Even their training regimes are designed to kill them; only the physically fit and the aggressive mindsets can survive. This is solely selection for aggression and physical prowess, not intelligence. How long have the Sangheili been doing this? Thousands of years potentially? I think that must have done something to their intelligence as a species over the eons. They are breeding themselves for pugnacity and physical strength only and ignoring other attributes, like the foxes were bread for tameness only whilst other attributes were ignored. The result was a diminished ferocity as it was ignored, just like intellect does not seem to be valued in Sangheili society. One has to wonder how many Hawking's have never been given the chance to prove themselves in their society before being culled.

  • 11.21.2011 5:48 PM PDT

Unlike a dog or a cat, humans and Sangheili are truly sentient; that is to say, aware of self. More than just urges and instincts and doctrines.

It's an interesting thought but I don't think it'd hold true. Dogs are inherently pack-orientated creatures too; they deviate to whoever they perceive as their leader, which in the case of domesticated animals is their owner.

Plus, the 5000 years of suppression by the Covenant isn't enough to genetically affect the species; and that's assuming that immediately the Sangheili bent to the Covenant's will, which we know not to be so from The Duel.

It probably took at least the better part of a thousand years for them to truly settle into their role as protector, and even then there wasn't enough time for evolution to actually adapt to that role and change their physiology and psychology as a species.

I'm not saying the Covenant haven't had an impact on Sangheili culture and mindset, but I do believe that to suggest their intelligence as a species has been lessened by but a few thousand years of suppression is to go too far with one's asseveration.

  • 11.21.2011 6:05 PM PDT

yas334229812

although it is still possible as it was done voluntarily.
Voluntarily it effects the psychological mindset of the population. Which may find some support and not to be racist in the idea of the basis of superstitions. True they are not real but there must be a reason.

Look at it this way, in the middle ages or older ages when one civilization met other groups of humans they would question their way of living as it is considered of lower kind, not because they are the choosen but in what they believe and their population mentality.

Good example is Sparta and Athens.

Another example is the dark ages where the relearning of the ancient knowledge and new knowledge was gained from the muslims and were then used after centuries, after caprinocus galileo etc. that the west began to progress.

  • 11.21.2011 7:20 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Wolverfrog

Posted by: grey101
"standard English" (Which should be Basic English)


I study English Language at an advanced level and I'm bloody good at it, not to blow my own trumpet. My knowledge of this language and its intricacies obviously far outstrips yours, so I'd climb down from that non-existential high horse you're trying to get comfy on.

I didn't provide a counter example other than an example being ignorant for eons is going to have a genetic affect on you. Everything has potential that gets limited in which the covenant limited the Sangheili.

I wasn't concerned nor do i care.


seriously if it takes years for them to solve that kid of puzzle something must be wrong with them. most humans would finish a cube in days in not a week or two. The smart ones finish them in seconds.


That is a huge difference.


"That kind of puzzle." I didn't realise you had an Arum, maybe I didn't see it because it's wedged up your arse? And like I said, I think there's a reason why humans can solve it quicker than Sangheili but it's just pure conjecture. I don't think Sangheili are any less intelligent than humans, they're just accustomed to not thinking outside the box the Covenant made for them and it will take a while for them to break that habit.

Regarding me 'not being here,' I've been on this forum for years so I'm not sure what you're getting at. I haven't been here recently because after Reach my interest in the Halo universe fell to an all-time low and it's only recently that I've begun to enjoy it again and catch up on what I've missed.

I'd also be interested to hear where you got the idea that being intellectually suppressed would have a genetic impact from, and if you have a real-world example to support that claim. Evolution/devolution doesn't take effect in any significant way in just a few thousand years. Your biology seems to be as poor as your English.


I personally don't care English isn't physics or anything so as good as you are at reading books and writing sentences that doesn't say anything about your intelligence whatsoever.


I don't have an Arum but after reading the book it is no different than a rubex cube, all it is just an elaborate puzzle. So you claimed that i was "arguing against myself" yet you just re-established something i already said? I guess you are good at reading.


Thats the point. You haven't been around and your pretty much outclassed now.

My biology is poor or you just don't have the brain matter to understand something simple. For the sangheili to remain stagnant for thousands of years without any cultural,mathematical, or scientific development is going to impact them greatly. I already gave two examples with the Arum and revenant but since you seem to be attempting to put me in my place (and failing at it) rather than staying on topic how about you just read anton's post.
Maybe you will actually read to comprehend rather than read to point out Grammar flaws since according to you writing perfectly and not talking about anything relevant= mighty intelligence.


You say that a few thousand years wouldn't be enough to impact them genetically yet we already know they have a Forced evolutionary adaptation to plasma which is why they don't get sick from firing the weapons.
We also know that the prophets have been actively researching medicines to increase their lifespans and if i remember correctly brutes put something in the grunts food nipples to make them more aggressive in battle.

The point is even if it couldn't happen naturally there is no reason that the Prophets could have done something to the elites to hamper their mental capacity.


  • 11.22.2011 5:42 AM PDT

yas334229812

Plasma i understand because it actually mutates your DNA, but normal psychological changes do happen quite slowly and longer, this may be accelerated due to radiation damage to their DNA and changes that start to occur.

  • 11.22.2011 7:35 AM PDT

Yep, it's directly hinted Brutes are doing something with either the food, or the methane that makes grunts more aggressive. Of course, afterwards the Arbiter mentions it could simply be fear.

  • 11.22.2011 8:28 AM PDT


Posted by: grey101


Study of English isn't a physics (although it is a science in itself and to be as good at it as I intelligence is a necessity) but I assure you I'm great at physics, biology and all that lark too; I'm a very intelligent guy, and although to assert my intellectual superiority over you when my only assessment of your own cognitive abilities are through your poor communication would be fallible, I'll do it anyway because it's a laugh and you're very easily antagonised. You especially seem sensitive about your intelligence and its relation to that of others', always trying to find a way to put yourself above someone else -- you should see someone about that because it won't get you anywhere in life, socially or professionally.

"I haven't been around and I'm pretty much outclassed." Perfect example of that narcissism; do you actually realise what a -blam!- you sound like? I hope for your sake you're not like this in real life. Just because I haven't been insulting every person with a suggestion like you, it doesn't mean I haven't been checking in regularly; I'm up to date on practically all Halo canon now aside from the CEA terminals.

The Jiralhanae put a gas in the Unggoy food nipples to boost their aggression; this is a chemical change affecting the central nervous system and changing the receptors of enzymes/cells in the body, and has nothing to do with genetics whatsoever.

Organisms can build resistances to hazards in a surprisingly short amount of time; look at anti-biotic resistant bacteria, for example. This is a beneficiary evolutionary trait for the species involved. Changing a species' complete psychological and mental state to the extent that they're a less intelligent species is unlikely in such a short space of time, especially when the Sangheili aren't exactly slaves in pits -- they're still educated, just suppressed in what they can know. Knowledge does not equate to intelligence.

"There is no reason the Prophets could not have done something to the Elites." No. There are billions of Sangheili out there and only a certain amount of San 'Shyuum, with the group willing the participate in such a morally devoid practice miniscular therefore. Disregarding for a moment the nigh-impossibility of gathering all Sangheili into one place so they can be genetically retarded, to carry it out they'd need to look outside the San 'Shyuum; Unggoy are too dim-witted for such a ploy, Kig-Yar are too devious and the prospect of Jiralhanae Doctors proficient in genetic engineering is humourous in itself. Despite all that, the most important reason -- the Sangheili as a whole would not let the Prophets anywhere near them or their young. That very idea is absurd.

Not to mention a lack of motive. For thousands of years the San 'Shyuum and the Sangheili co-existed in mutually beneficial symbiosis -- to retard their closest allies would be lunacy. It was only with the ascendancy of Truth, Regret and Mercy that hostilities brewed. Are you actually try to suggest that in the thirty rough years between Restraint, Obligation and Tolerance being replaced and the Great Schism that the San 'Shyuum not only created a restriction enzyme capable of splicing the Sangheili plasmids (assuming that they even had a map of the Sangheili genome which, judging by the Covenant's lack of innovation is improbable), add the base pairs (which they would have to synthesise, an effort in itself), and combine it with ligase but also splice this altered DNA strand into the body of every single Sangheili and that this would have an effect in the thirty years? Of course not, you'd need at least a generation or two for any small impact and many more for it to be felt significantly, and that's assuming it would work with Sangheili anatomy.

My biology isn't the best, but I think it's you out of your depth here, mate. Glasslands is a cool story, I thought Lucy killing the Huragok was sad.

Edit: an alien puzzle being basically a Rubix cube. -blam!- lol. Professor Rubix will be happy to hear that then, when we encounter alien life he can sue them for infringing on his copyright.

[Edited on 11.22.2011 1:11 PM PST]

  • 11.22.2011 8:34 AM PDT