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This topic has moved here: Subject: so does everyone see halsey as a monster?
  • Subject: so does everyone see halsey as a monster?
Subject: so does everyone see halsey as a monster?

Love your friends, Die laughing.

Glasslands made one thing clear for me, and that was:
Halsey is bad, Halsey = bad, bad, really bad, bad Halsey.

Thanks Traviss, I get your point!

  • 11.09.2011 10:12 AM PDT

"Except we, we're the zebras. All fenced in...and ready for the slaughter!"

||S-fen Knee-cheh
||19th Shock Troops Battalion

You guys should read The Ender's Quartet by Orson Scott Card.

Travis is doing the same thing as Card, exploring the ethics of the Spartan Program.

[Edited on 11.09.2011 12:08 PM PST]

  • 11.09.2011 12:02 PM PDT
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Astronomy FTW

Tubas Represent!

In a few books, she is noted as almost sorry for them, but it had to be done if the UNSC were to survive.

  • 11.09.2011 2:08 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

Halsey did unethical experiments, yes, but she did it for the greater good. You say that she had no right to kidnap the children. Do you remember the nuclear bomb the Rebels detonated? Killed several million people. They were also able to acquire several more nukes. How many nukes do the Rebels have to detonate before the Spartan program is deemed necessary in your eyes? Is it not the UNSC's duty to minimize casualties and maximize effectiveness in the war? Because if they didn't create the Spartans, the Rebels would have detonated those other nukes. Does the saving of several million people not justify Halsey's actions?

  • 11.09.2011 2:23 PM PDT


Posted by: Atomic Tea
You don't "save the galaxy from" a human/human war. You save a government from a human/human war. The Insurrection was fought because some disagreed with the direction the UEG was headed. Halsey only created the Spartan Program to keep the UEG on top.

If it was purely the Insurrection, I probably would of disliked her. Normal marines could of handled it, eventually. The fact that the Covenant and the Flood appeared on the galactic stage is her only saving grace, in my opinion.


Yes you can. The Insurrection was going beyond attacking the government and bordering on attacking humanity itself the way they were targeting the civilian population far more often than they did any significant degree of damage to military targets. The whole reason Halsey came up with the Spartan program was not because she was trying to keep the UEG or UNSC in control, it was because of what the Insurrection were doing to the civilians and how much worse their attacks and methods were getting.

No they really couldn't, which is the whole reason the UNSC went to such measures as the ORION Project (the Spartan Is) and upgraded it to the Spartan II project later. The usual means of dealing with Innies were not proving effective and the terrorist attacks were only getting worse, it was not something ordinary troops and ordinary military measures could handle. The creation of the Spartan program to combat the Insurrection is entirely justifiable and equally redeemable as it was in the face of the Covenant.

  • 11.09.2011 4:26 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Atomic Tea
You don't "save the galaxy from" a human/human war. You save a government from a human/human war. The Insurrection was fought because some disagreed with the direction the UEG was headed. Halsey only created the Spartan Program to keep the UEG on top.

If it was purely the Insurrection, I probably would of disliked her. Normal marines could of handled it, eventually. The fact that the Covenant and the Flood appeared on the galactic stage is her only saving grace, in my opinion.


Yes you can. The Insurrection was going beyond attacking the government and bordering on attacking humanity itself the way they were targeting the civilian population far more often than they did any significant degree of damage to military targets. The whole reason Halsey came up with the Spartan program was not because she was trying to keep the UEG or UNSC in control, it was because of what the Insurrection were doing to the civilians and how much worse their attacks and methods were getting.

No they really couldn't, which is the whole reason the UNSC went to such measures as the ORION Project (the Spartan Is) and upgraded it to the Spartan II project later. The usual means of dealing with Innies were not proving effective and the terrorist attacks were only getting worse, it was not something ordinary troops and ordinary military measures could handle. The creation of the Spartan program to combat the Insurrection is entirely justifiable and equally redeemable as it was in the face of the Covenant.


Halsey didn't even start the SPARTAN program Orion was in the works to stop the innies long before Halsey's time. Which is why it is called the SPARTAN II project. Absolutely nothing is different in morals from ether programs other than the kid napping of children which in itself is the lesser evil of billions of deaths/causality's.


The lack of correct knowledge on the subject is killing me. I have yet to fully understand why karen is fueling the Idea that Halsey did the entire program herself and started it alone; which she did not.

Not to mention Why people are debating the ethics of Halsey when Ackerson is the one the novel should be about not Halsey. So all of you are going to Bit*h about the fact children were kidnapped yet not bring up the fact Ackerson coerced children into being suicide soldiers?

You are going to bring in the morality of Halsey's work and state of mind despite the fact Spartan II's have a longer lifespan and she expressed her guilt over it constantly?


Ackerson did not properly use the SIIIs nor did he feel bad about it. Had the SIIIs been giving better equipment,training, and more meaningful missions than suicide ops There impact on the war would have been far more direct.
Instead Ackerson just wanted to one up Halsey,use little money and safety as possible, AND wanted a personal army. Yet, i see nobody racking on Ackerson saying how much of a monster he is and karen makes him out to be a hero.


Not to mention The Spartan IIIs weren't needed as suicide soldiers. Since the Spartan IV program gets fancy knew mark VII armor that is sure as hell more expensive than the mark V; Why didn't they use that to improve SPI armor of give the armor to the SIIIs? Halsey broke her back trying to increase the survival rates of her spartans and she is getting flak yet Ackerson didn't get a damn and nobody is trashing him.



All of you that judge Halsey's character based off incomplete information are idiots. All of you that believe Halsey is a monster for what ever reason are idiots. All of you that believe Halsey started the program are idiots. All of you that think she did it without supervision and approval are idiots.

And all of you that think Karen was correct for putting Halsey on the spotlight for whatever reason despite the fact any pig brained animal could tell you that Ackerson is worse, are idiots.

  • 11.09.2011 4:52 PM PDT

United Armed Forces

Nope.

  • 11.09.2011 4:52 PM PDT

Detonate the watermelon!

The needs of the many come before the needs of the few.

  • 11.09.2011 4:54 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

A puppet of the true evil, the UNSC. The UNSC created the issue of the Insurrection and could have solved it using diplomacy but they chose to green light the Spartan Program in light of the Carver findings. If Halsey had said no, then ONI would simply have found someone else and the program would still have been attempted. Halsey was concerned about the Carver findings and so agreed - Carver findings based upon the consequences of ONI and UNSC actions. She is a scapegoat and holds as much blame as anyone else who took part in the program - From Parangosky funding it to Mendez training the recruits.

  • 11.09.2011 5:12 PM PDT

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Nope.

I see here more as a hero. She created the Spartan-II program which was key in winning the Human-Covenant War.

  • 11.09.2011 5:13 PM PDT

If you read her journal, from the reach legendary pack, she clearly feels bad about what she has done to the spartans. She is a scientist, too, and in order to be objective in studies, you do have to be.. well.. objective. Also, she didn't have much of a choice, thanks to ONI's and the UNSC's pushing her project into production, and she was in some cases forced to be unsafe in the medical procedure performed on the spartans, not because she had a choice but because of ONI's scheduling, and because of budget.

  • 11.09.2011 5:17 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
A puppet of the true evil, the UNSC. The UNSC created the issue of the Insurrection and could have solved it using diplomacy but they chose to green light the Spartan Program in light of the Carver findings. If Halsey had said no, then ONI would simply have found someone else and the program would still have been attempted. Halsey was concerned about the Carver findings and so agreed - Carver findings based upon the consequences of ONI and UNSC actions. She is a scapegoat and holds as much blame as anyone else who took part in the program - From Parangosky funding it to Mendez training the recruits.


The way I remember it, the UNSC were actually trying to find a peaceful solution and some sort of compromise with the dissenters before the dissent turned sour and to open rebellion and terrorism. The whole situation is not entirely one sides fault, though if any is to bear most of the blame it should be the Insurrectionists. And I don't remember anything at all indicating that the UNSC is really fits the bill of an evil government. Sure it's not perfect, but I have yet to see anything that really screams "this is a bad government, get rid of it" to me :/

  • 11.09.2011 5:23 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: anton1792
A puppet of the true evil, the UNSC. The UNSC created the issue of the Insurrection and could have solved it using diplomacy but they chose to green light the Spartan Program in light of the Carver findings. If Halsey had said no, then ONI would simply have found someone else and the program would still have been attempted. Halsey was concerned about the Carver findings and so agreed - Carver findings based upon the consequences of ONI and UNSC actions. She is a scapegoat and holds as much blame as anyone else who took part in the program - From Parangosky funding it to Mendez training the recruits.


The way I remember it, the UNSC were actually trying to find a peaceful solution and some sort of compromise with the dissenters before the dissent turned sour and to open rebellion and terrorism. The whole situation is not entirely one sides fault, though if any is to bear most of the blame it should be the Insurrectionists. And I don't remember anything at all indicating that the UNSC is really fits the bill of an evil government. Sure it's not perfect, but I have yet to see anything that really screams "this is a bad government, get rid of it" to me :/


With all current info the UEG did not try any form of diplomacy. And the UEG is a fault for R@ping the outer colonies and leaving them to fend for themselves; that is the issue at hand.

All the UEG needs to do is fund a massive mining effort in the Oort cloud so any other resources are a surplus. instead of plundering the outer colonies and leaving them poor.

  • 11.09.2011 5:27 PM PDT

"We live in a special time; the only time where we can observationally verify that we live in a very special time" - Lawrence Krauss.

I was a finalist :P

Yes. In terms of an ethical perspective.

  • 11.09.2011 5:30 PM PDT
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Posted by: Admaster
I dunno, I just read the Glasslands book, and I sort of got the feeling of the "good mother" thing may have been an act for a lot of it till she started feeling guilty about it... maybe not a monster, but by the end of the book I don't think I had a lot of sympathy for her.
That may be so but Glasslands is a terrible book and is just some woman's terrible perspective on the Halo universe. Halsey did what was necessary and what was right, Karen Traveiss just had nothing to write about so she attacked Halsey.

  • 11.09.2011 6:10 PM PDT

I am a monument to all your sins

she did some horrible things, If it happened in real life, and we didn't have access to her thoughts I would see her as a monster too.

  • 11.09.2011 7:02 PM PDT

I am a monument to all your sins


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: anton1792
A puppet of the true evil, the UNSC. The UNSC created the issue of the Insurrection and could have solved it using diplomacy but they chose to green light the Spartan Program in light of the Carver findings. If Halsey had said no, then ONI would simply have found someone else and the program would still have been attempted. Halsey was concerned about the Carver findings and so agreed - Carver findings based upon the consequences of ONI and UNSC actions. She is a scapegoat and holds as much blame as anyone else who took part in the program - From Parangosky funding it to Mendez training the recruits.


The way I remember it, the UNSC were actually trying to find a peaceful solution and some sort of compromise with the dissenters before the dissent turned sour and to open rebellion and terrorism. The whole situation is not entirely one sides fault, though if any is to bear most of the blame it should be the Insurrectionists. And I don't remember anything at all indicating that the UNSC is really fits the bill of an evil government. Sure it's not perfect, but I have yet to see anything that really screams "this is a bad government, get rid of it" to me :/


With all current info the UEG did not try any form of diplomacy. And the UEG is a fault for R@ping the outer colonies and leaving them to fend for themselves; that is the issue at hand.

All the UEG needs to do is fund a massive mining effort in the Oort cloud so any other resources are a surplus. instead of plundering the outer colonies and leaving them poor.
the insurrection had valid points for rebellion, but when they started nuking population centers, they lost all credibility. People like that don't deserve freedom. I realize how people like to color the rebels as the good guys but I have to say that the UNSC has a moral high ground here. They may have neglected the outer colonies to some extent (although it really hasn't been revealed how) at least they don't slaughter civilians to make a point.

  • 11.09.2011 7:05 PM PDT

// Chapter
// My PC


2/15/12: Francisco Porras, I'll miss you. Rest in Peace.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Glasslands shoves "HALSEY IS BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD FOR LIKING HER" down your thought though.

:(
She's one of my favorite characters.

  • 11.09.2011 7:05 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Darthbill99

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: anton1792
A puppet of the true evil, the UNSC. The UNSC created the issue of the Insurrection and could have solved it using diplomacy but they chose to green light the Spartan Program in light of the Carver findings. If Halsey had said no, then ONI would simply have found someone else and the program would still have been attempted. Halsey was concerned about the Carver findings and so agreed - Carver findings based upon the consequences of ONI and UNSC actions. She is a scapegoat and holds as much blame as anyone else who took part in the program - From Parangosky funding it to Mendez training the recruits.


The way I remember it, the UNSC were actually trying to find a peaceful solution and some sort of compromise with the dissenters before the dissent turned sour and to open rebellion and terrorism. The whole situation is not entirely one sides fault, though if any is to bear most of the blame it should be the Insurrectionists. And I don't remember anything at all indicating that the UNSC is really fits the bill of an evil government. Sure it's not perfect, but I have yet to see anything that really screams "this is a bad government, get rid of it" to me :/


With all current info the UEG did not try any form of diplomacy. And the UEG is a fault for R@ping the outer colonies and leaving them to fend for themselves; that is the issue at hand.

All the UEG needs to do is fund a massive mining effort in the Oort cloud so any other resources are a surplus. instead of plundering the outer colonies and leaving them poor.
the insurrection had valid points for rebellion, but when they started nuking population centers, they lost all credibility. People like that don't deserve freedom. I realize how people like to color the rebels as the good guys but I have to say that the UNSC has a moral high ground here. They may have neglected the outer colonies to some extent (although it really hasn't been revealed how) at least they don't slaughter civilians to make a point.


I never supported the actions the innies took and the UNSC robbed the outer planets for resources to send them back to the inner planets. Making the newly colonized planets poor and the older ones more stable.


Posted by: Darthbill99
she did some horrible things, If it happened in real life, and we didn't have access to her thoughts I would see her as a monster too.


I hate people that use plural when they are clearly talking about themselves. My mother did that every time my sister did something stupid.


While you see it that way a good amount of people on Earth that use the brain capacity's they have, would understand that (for the 8th time) She wasn't the first to do this, she wasn't stopped,this helped the war,etc.


The only reason Halsey is bad is because you are narrow sighted and refuse to take in the whole scenario. I constantly bring Ackerson up yet for some reason people like you just ignore it.

  • 11.09.2011 7:12 PM PDT

"We live in a special time; the only time where we can observationally verify that we live in a very special time" - Lawrence Krauss.

I was a finalist :P


Posted by: grey101
I hate people that use plural when they are clearly talking about themselves. My mother did that every time my sister did something stupid.


While you see it that way a good amount of people on Earth that use the brain capacity's they have, would understand that (for the 8th time) She wasn't the first to do this, she wasn't stopped,this helped the war,etc.


The only reason Halsey is bad is because you are narrow sighted and refuse to take in the whole scenario. I constantly bring Ackerson up yet for some reason people like you just ignore it.

In terms of an ethical perspective it was wrong, plain and simple. No matter the reasons, no matter the results, altering a child's future via conscription is morally, socially, and ethically wrong.

But does that make her a monster entirely? I think it comes down to subjective opinions.

  • 11.09.2011 7:50 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Zealot Tony

Posted by: grey101
I hate people that use plural when they are clearly talking about themselves. My mother did that every time my sister did something stupid.


While you see it that way a good amount of people on Earth that use the brain capacity's they have, would understand that (for the 8th time) She wasn't the first to do this, she wasn't stopped,this helped the war,etc.


The only reason Halsey is bad is because you are narrow sighted and refuse to take in the whole scenario. I constantly bring Ackerson up yet for some reason people like you just ignore it.

In terms of an ethical perspective it was wrong, plain and simple. No matter the reasons, no matter the results, altering a child's future via conscription is morally, socially, and ethically wrong.

But does that make her a monster entirely? I think it comes down to subjective opinions.


Since when are Ethics written in stone? they are no more than moral guidelines you live your life by.


If what you said was even remotely true then the term "The ends justify the means" wouldn't exist.

Morality is subjective just like everything else.

  • 11.09.2011 7:54 PM PDT

I'm going to throw my two cents in on the whole Halsey/Ackerson moral high ground. What Halsey did was absolutely terrible and she knew it was terrible, but she knew the Spartan-2 program was the only option to stop a full blown civil war between the UNSC and the Insurrectionists. Ackerson on the other hand has been shown to have a borderline disregard for human life.

As Halsey's rival at ONI he has tried several times to sabatoge the Spartan-2 project; he even tried to have John killed during the testing of the MK-5 armor. With his own Spartan-3 project he recruited vengeful, traumatized orphans turning them into for all intensive purposes canon fodder on steroids to slow down the Covenant war machine. Worst of all Spartan-3s were deployed at the age of 12; their training and growth dramatically accelerated over that of the Spartan-2s. They were sent into battle with no orbital backup and almost no chance of survival.

As for the 3s recruitment being more moral than what Halsey did with the 2s, towards the end of GoO Ackerson starts looking for suitable subjects for the program outside of the pool of orphan candidates, so if Onyx hadn't been attacked the newer class of Spartans would have been assembled of partially kidnapped children. To top that off when Kurt came to him with the idea of giving Gama Company illegal augmentations that could turn the newest batch of Spartans into psychopaths just so they could get shot up a little bit more before falling down, he didn't bat an eye. Ackerson was not a good person, even trying to look at his actions in shades of grey he still ends up looking like an @#$hole.

So is Ackerson a monster? A text book villain that just happens to be fighting on the right side? No, but to say he was more moral and even a hero in comparison to Halsey; absolutely not. Halsey was a saint compared to this guy, which makes all the aformentioned dumb crap about Paragnosky making Ackerson out to be a war hero and Halsey an evil witch that kidnaps children in the night to do terrible experiments on them infuriating.

  • 11.09.2011 11:59 PM PDT

I think she had good intentions, but we all know the saying about those. Also, she had serious issues.

  • 11.10.2011 12:29 AM PDT

Overall no, I see the ethical implications, and can empathize with the characters in Glasslands, But having read the entire spectrum of Halo Fiction it becomes clear that the spartan II (and III) programs were absolutely necessary. However I do agree with Parangosky's point about the flash clones.

  • 11.10.2011 12:33 AM PDT
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:)

Posted by: grey101
Not to mention The Spartan IIIs weren't needed as suicide soldiers. Since the Spartan IV program gets fancy knew mark VII armor..


I agree with you Grey.

But this point.. Where is it stated that the SIVs have access to Mark VII armour? Hell, we don't even know if they could utilise it - By memory, kids aren't used (Which implies somewhat that a lot of the augmentations that SII / IIIs had that let them use MJOLNIR couldn't be used because the subjects are past puberty).

  • 11.10.2011 12:48 AM PDT