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Subject: Seven years

"I hope nothing, I fear nothing, I am free"
"A person needs a little madness, or else they never dare cut the rope and be free." - Nikos Kazantzakis
"The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of martyrs" - Hasan al-Basri
Black Chapter, for all religious and political debate that doesn't fit in the Flood.

So, seven years. I'm still here, if only just. I think most of the laundry list of issues still exists and hasn't really changed much in the past 3 or so years, so I suppose I'll start by restating elmicker's points.

Maybe it's just a factor of age, but the further I get outside of the 14-17 bracket, the more these points seem to be true.

1. The forums are less fun. Scroll back to 2009 or just about any point before 'Play Nice' and political and intellectual discussions did happen more often. Perhaps we just had a better class of member back then, or perhaps it was the moderation team being fairly relaxed towards threads of an intellectual nature so long as there was no flaming involved.

I'll put my hand up straight away and say that I haven't been a regular in a game forum since New Mombasa. The Halo 3 Forum killed any enjoyment I had of them by simply moving so damn fast and I struggle to hold an in depth conversation about video games lately. That was true in 2007, it's still true now.

2. Member retention sucks. I started the job of going through uIDs to calculate how many members stick around bungie.net, then gave up and asked ApocalypeX of Bungie.me for some help. He bashed out a bit of code and has had it running for several months now and hopes to have the statistics available in Dec/Jan when the new version of Bungie.me goes online. I might edit them in to this once they're available, but good work by ApocalpyeX anyway as he really didn't have to oblige me. :)

3. Titles still suck and they're still a join date in disguise. Unless we want to throw in the ability for, say, mods to vote for an upshift in trust rating to provide fluidity to the system, it's fairly pointless. I have a blue bar and a fair ban history. Does this mean I'm a member people should look up to, or that I set a good example? Of course not, and why the hell should it? Should I know better because I've been here for far, far too long? (1/3 of my life spent here, ohdear) There's no real place for actual interaction between new and old members nowadays. I got to know most old members through groups (members that make me look young, for instance), and without realising it also sat and chatted to half the moderation team in the Black Chapter as they all seemed to be mods or admins in there in 2006. I got to know them, they got to know me (to a point), and discussion and good manners all around were had. Where does one go nowadays to spend time with older members? Well, besides #moap or #bungienet, but even then new members never join them.

4. Groups are still dead. Until this year I could at least say that discussion groups like the Black Chapter were still active, so quibbled this point. Not so much now, the members it used to have are either gone or have gotten so used to the same faces that nothing new ever really happens. With no intellectual topics in the Flood from which to do targetted recruiting (something I did for quite a few years), no reference to discussion groups in the rules (something that was true for many years) and a classifieds system that's absolutely bloody useless, this isn't too surprising.

So, groups are dead and good groups are few and far between, and being able to find groups you might want to join is incredibly difficult, never mind trying to find new members for existing groups.

If you have a group of people talking, topics are going to come up that skirt the rules or outright break them. It used to be the case that mods let us have these discussions on all manner of things so long as we could be civil. Admittedly, being civil on religion is an incredibly hard thing to ask of most people, but it can occasionally happen. For those very few occasions, a watchful eye works. (and we are talking incredibly infrequently. An absolute ban on religious discussion is hardly the worst thing in the world) Banning all thoughtful discussion doesn't make people more civil, it makes people boring. Learning to be civil to people who disagree with you on just about everything is part of growing up.

This leads into..

5. The Flood should have posting and thread creation restricted. The idea of three months of activity to post, six to create a thread and any bans or warnings in the past two weeks prevent posting in the Flood works for me. Creates barriers to entry, allows a different standard of moderation and allows for a more relaxed standard as far as the rules are concerned. This allows relatively new posters to actually have a forum that's intelligible and promote a better standard of discussion. Break a rule, get warned, take two weeks off from the Flood while being able to post elsewhere still.

Again with the titles I'd also like the mods to be able to fast track a member they see as a good poster as a form of reward. So, if a new member catches the eye of a mod the mod can recommend them as a form of reward. I don't expect this to ever see much use, however. Same as the mods up-voting people for titles. I'd love to be wrong though.

Now that recap of elmicker is over (though he'll complain I've butchered his points, but you can always (re-)read his threads to get a better idea of how he would put things. <3), on to my points.

6. Transparency and clarity still suck. Unless there's been a wholesale change recently, members still cannot see what they were banned for (if anyone says they can search their posts, you'll realise there is a character limit to what you can see. For instance, I wouldn't be able to see anything much of this post.), and mods cannot highlight specifically what they took offence to. There are specific things which shouldn't be viewable by other members, but these are pretty much all perma-ban offences (shock sites, etc.) so a quick note like 'this member was permanently banned for posting a shock site' in replacement for all of that users posts would drive home the point better, surely?

Likewise, just because a user is banned, the content of all their posts may not have all been objectionable. Why not just highlight the specific post and what in it resulted in a ban, then add the ban message from the mod in to the post on top of that. By all means, collapse the posts people were banned for, but letting people view what was deemed unacceptable lets them know where the line is. If a user has been an active participant in a good discussion and is then banned, their content is hidden until the ban is up. Why? It may well be useful for the discussion to reference it, and if someone hasn't quoted it that isn't possible.

Being able to see what you were banned for is really quite useful. If it's a long post, you probably can't see it, and it's more than possible for a moderator to misinterpret something you've said (in jokes do happen) or for you not to realise that what you're saying could be interpreted as flaming by someone else. A quick PM to the moderator in question usually resolves this, but I've waited a few days for a reply when I've not been near a computer and then the mod who banned me was busy and other mods weren't really sure what I'd been banned for. Mods have lives and they'll interpret things differently, so a record of what specifically they took action over that doesn't rely on them being at their computer to respond would be nice.

7. Moderators should post more as members. Aside from Recon's (let's face it) spam posts, moderators aren't really all that active as members. TU got appointed mod and pretty much stopped coming to #bungienet and his posting has seriously died. Admittedly he got hit by an attack of life not long after, but I'm totally blaming being a mod for his lack of posting (<3). It's nice that evilcam drops into threads to point out people's rose tinted glasses, but if we can create an environment that the mods actually want to post in as members, we've probably created an environment where people actually want to stick around.

This is, admittedly, an ancient complaint. We've been saying for years that the best moderation is moderators being present. If they actually enjoy posting and being in the forums, they don't hate this place as much and you improve moderation without racking up more bans. Feeds back into point five, of course.

I think that's about it for me. Nothing new here, admittedly, just a collection of complaints and suggestions from the past few years. I'm sure there are plenty more I'm forgetting, so feel free to chip in/tell me I'm wrong/tell me I'm an inbred, six fingered Manxman/so forth. <3

  • 11.10.2011 1:50 PM PDT
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Pfhor new members:
Hello, I am *****. I am a very active Bungie.net member and If you do not understand or need help with something with Bungie.net you can message me. I will reply with a correct and accuate answer. Welcome to the Seventh Column Army.

I have never heard of you, seriously.

  • 11.10.2011 1:53 PM PDT

Posted by: Makar
I have never heard of you, seriously.
Way to actually read the thread.

Anywho, good thread. I'd agree to it all except #7. I'd say that's up to them and them alone. Otherwise... good stuff, good stuff.

  • 11.10.2011 1:56 PM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

Posted by: Primum Agmen
Aside from Recon's (let's face it) spam posts

Hey!!!

  • 11.10.2011 1:58 PM PDT
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Pfhor new members:
Hello, I am *****. I am a very active Bungie.net member and If you do not understand or need help with something with Bungie.net you can message me. I will reply with a correct and accuate answer. Welcome to the Seventh Column Army.


Posted by: burritosenior
Posted by: Makar
I have never heard of you, seriously.
Way to actually read the thread.

Anywho, good thread. I'd agree to it all except #7. I'd say that's up to them and them alone. Otherwise... good stuff, good stuff.
Eh I did now and #6 is the one I most agree with.

  • 11.10.2011 1:58 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

Exalted Unexplainable Member

Although I disagree with 2009 being that great, I agree with just about everything you said.

But can't you think of anything that has improved?

  • 11.10.2011 1:59 PM PDT

"I hope nothing, I fear nothing, I am free"
"A person needs a little madness, or else they never dare cut the rope and be free." - Nikos Kazantzakis
"The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of martyrs" - Hasan al-Basri
Black Chapter, for all religious and political debate that doesn't fit in the Flood.

Posted by: Recon Number 54
Posted by: Primum Agmen
Aside from Recon's (let's face it) spam posts
Hey!!!
I never said it was a bad thing. <3 Spam, much like trolling, is an art form. Done properly it straddles the boundary between legitimate discussion and total bollocks. It should provoke mirth, head shaking and a desire to post in quaint vernacular.
Posted by: Izak609
Although I disagree with 2009 being that great, I agree with just about everything you said.
2009 wasn't great. 2008 was a very good year, 2009 was more than a little depressing.

[Edited on 11.10.2011 2:03 PM PST]

  • 11.10.2011 2:02 PM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

Posted by: Primum Agmen
Posted by: Recon Number 54
Posted by: Primum Agmen
Aside from Recon's (let's face it) spam posts
Hey!!!
I never said it was a bad thing. <3 Spam, much like trolling, is an art form. Done properly it straddles the boundary between legitimate discussion and total bollocks. It should provoke mirth, head shaking and a desire to post in quaint vernacular.

Oh. In that case.... thank you?

And happy anniversary. Personally I thought that 05-07 were exciting. But it's so dependent on the individual's situation and point of view. We're all the community we create and take part in.

  • 11.10.2011 2:06 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

Exalted Unexplainable Member

Hmm... I can buy 2008 and very early 2009 being good...

2009 wasn't that bad (if you went horribly inactive like me).

Posted by: Primum Agmen
2008 was a very good year, 2009 was more than a little depressing.

  • 11.10.2011 2:08 PM PDT

"I hope nothing, I fear nothing, I am free"
"A person needs a little madness, or else they never dare cut the rope and be free." - Nikos Kazantzakis
"The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of martyrs" - Hasan al-Basri
Black Chapter, for all religious and political debate that doesn't fit in the Flood.

I loved 05-07, but for different reasons. New Mombasa, fanfics, lore and whatever else. '08 was my first real introduction to the Flood. Averaging 1,000 posts a month for however many months, good times.

I still love the community, it's just a bit... younger than me. Problems of member retention, really, as people over 21 become a distinct minority.

  • 11.10.2011 2:14 PM PDT

Congrats bro!

  • 11.10.2011 2:16 PM PDT

~HC Swat Iz Back

HaloCharts.com!

Your as old as Halo 2!

  • 11.10.2011 2:21 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

Exalted Unexplainable Member

Yeah. There has always been problems with... maturity. The older users get, the less free time users usually have to check forums.


Posted by: Primum Agmen
I still love the community, it's just a bit... younger than me. Problems of member retention, really, as people over 21 become a distinct minority.

  • 11.10.2011 2:23 PM PDT
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-blam!- newbies, stealing my posts.

[Edited on 11.10.2011 2:28 PM PST]

  • 11.10.2011 2:28 PM PDT
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"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. " ~Gil Stern

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." ~Albert Einstein

"What did I just drink?"~Socrates

Buyer's Guide: Headphones|Google Chrome Themes|Arena Spreadsheet

I agree with pretty much everything up there. Other examples of activity dying off would be dmbfan and evilcam. Not saying that more important stuff couldn't have popped up in life, but the timing is pretty odd. Not to mention that I forget half the people that are moderators are actually moderators.

  • 11.10.2011 2:28 PM PDT

Everything is interesting if you go into it deeply enough.

Posted by: Izak609
Yeah. There has always been problems with... maturity. The older users get, the less free time users usually have to check forums.


Posted by: Primum Agmen
I still love the community, it's just a bit... younger than me. Problems of member retention, really, as people over 21 become a distinct minority.
I check the forums all the time. I have very little interest in posting most of the time, though. Basically, I have tons of free time, I just waste it.

  • 11.10.2011 2:28 PM PDT

Dianna Agron is the epitome of perfection.

Quinntology.

I agree with everything. When it comes to Bungie.net, I feel myself visiting it a little less often every time the calendar turns. It's sad, because I've spent WAY too much time on this website and on Halo, but it's partly because there's less and less to do and partly that I didn't like the last game.

Here's to hoping that the next game blows everything out of the water, and Bungie.net will become return to it's so-called glory days.

  • 11.10.2011 2:29 PM PDT

On transparency I'd like to toss up the possibility of also attaching moderators names to 'user was banned for this post' scenario. Given we're frequently told mods can essentiality be polar opposites so long as they're internally consistent it could be nice to get an idea of what that actually means for the users.

Also happy seven you long haired Manx hippy <3

[Edited on 11.10.2011 2:35 PM PST]

  • 11.10.2011 2:33 PM PDT

I think he got a haircut.
Posted by: Nerd Boi
Also happy seven you long haired Manx hippy <3

  • 11.10.2011 2:41 PM PDT
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And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

I spam more than Recon!
Posted by: Recon Number 54
Posted by: Primum Agmen
Aside from Recon's (let's face it) spam posts

Hey!!!

  • 11.10.2011 2:42 PM PDT

Key


Posted by: Qbix89
I spam more than Recon!
Posted by: Recon Number 54
Posted by: Primum Agmen
Aside from Recon's (let's face it) spam posts

Hey!!!
/givecookie

  • 11.10.2011 2:44 PM PDT

What's up with all the -blam!-ing negativity?
Stop it.

Member of KOTOR

Keer-Meet
God of Destruction


Posted by: Qbix89
I spam more than Recon!
Posted by: Recon Number 54
Posted by: Primum Agmen
Aside from Recon's (let's face it) spam posts

Hey!!!

Yeah, and look where that landed you.

OT: Happy Anniversary person! :D

  • 11.10.2011 2:45 PM PDT
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Why are you reading my signature? Who actually opens these things and reads them!

And as always, SEND ME A PM. Please. Or really bad things will happen to you.

I do wish titles represented more than a join date. I like to think that since I'm now Mythic everyone knows my name but... uh... I don't know how true that is. Mythic members should be prominent members of the community, I don't know how to make titles represent that but I imagine there is a way. And then my name should be included in the new list of Mythics. :D

Sometimes it'd be nice if there was a way to see your impact on this site!

The rest I agree with. Adding restrictions to new users has always discouraged me from coming back to a forum though so I don't like that.

  • 11.10.2011 3:00 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

Exalted Unexplainable Member

Titles should be more representative; I've never gotten a single warning/ban and I only get to be exalted :D. Base ranks are just for fun, they don't really mean anything.

I've honestly started noticing your posts recently (I think it's just the avatar).

Posted by: Cranium Crater

  • 11.10.2011 3:11 PM PDT
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  • Fabled Legendary Member

1. That happens when you spend seven years on the site. Things get old, less interesting.
2. You're older. 14 year olds are still 14 year olds, on and off the internet. They act the same, the way you view the way they act changes as you grow up.
3. I may be incorrect but I thought I heard somewhere that titles might be removed soon.
4. Groups are as much alive as they were years ago. You don't look in the right places.
5. I completely agree.
6. See 5. Though I don't think it's that big of a deal.
7. Older members post less in general. Mods are some of the oldest members still around. It depends on the specific moderator and his personality. Also not that important.

  • 11.10.2011 3:12 PM PDT

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