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Subject: Couple questions for A 3 Legged Goat
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Posted by: A Modest Otter
Invasion is a stupid gametype whether it's Goat's or Bungie's. He's just wasting his time.


That's like saying Assault is stupid because the bomb arms too fast. It can be enjoyable if settings are altered, which is what Goat is doing. Building the map is only half of the battle. Editing loadouts and player traits is the other half, which is what most players complain about.

  • 11.25.2011 4:27 AM PDT

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Posted by: A Modest Otter
Invasion is a stupid gametype whether it's Goat's or Bungie's. He's just wasting his time.


List 10 issues that you have with Invasion in a reply to me here.

  • 11.25.2011 4:28 AM PDT
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If you're reading this, you're bad.


Posted by: A 3 Legged Goat

Posted by: A Modest Otter
Invasion is a stupid gametype whether it's Goat's or Bungie's. He's just wasting his time.


List 10 issues that you have with Invasion in a reply to me here.


1. Territories either too close together or too far apart
2. Starting weapons are crap and loadouts are bad in general (AL/Shotgun, etc.)
3. Can't see teammate waypoints
4. As Bullet said, not enough ammo in some weapons
5. Wide open spawns that are easy to camp
6. Vehicles and Weapons that can be stolen by the other team
7. Too many power weapons
8. Spawning is either too quick or too delayed at times
9. Vehicles spawning too quickly
10.Too much time spent walking to the objective

  • 11.25.2011 4:31 AM PDT
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You do know that almost all of those can be fixed by Goat in less than an hour? Why do you say it's stupid if it can be changed to be otherwise?

Again, if you don't like Assault because the bomb arms too fast, wouldn't you like it if it took longer to arm?

Your answer should be yes, because arm time is the only problem you have. So if those 10 things you posted were fixed or changed, then why would you still hate Invasion?


  • 11.25.2011 4:35 AM PDT
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What this game offers can never appeal to anyone on these forums. I will admit that Halo Reach was all hype, but no promise. But people are trying everything they can to make Reach a better game, but it doesn't help if people keep bashing other people's abilities. At least Goat is using his time to help create maps for everyone to enjoy, not to mention that it will benefit what Invasion has to offer. I've seen his preview of his ODST-themed map and it looks awesome at the moment.

I wish people would stop doubting him and provide a little bit of faith instead. He is knowledgeable with it comes to these things.

[Edited on 11.25.2011 5:08 AM PST]

  • 11.25.2011 5:01 AM PDT

This is relevant that I posted in another thread, read it and weep Staff Captain fanobys:


Posted by: RC Clone
So what I get from this argument is, you guys hate Goat because he's actually doing something about his displeasure with default invasion. When you were content to complain and do nothing.

Correct?

"Nope,

Upon the release of Reach I posted several threads and replies about Invasion and some potential problems that needed fixing, as I recall a good example was how on Spire the Spartans should spawn with considerably more pistol ammo to level the playing field.

Goat then persisted to argue about how all of my points made were flat out wrong, for page, after page.

Flash forward several months and he made a post using all of my points and said they were his ideas. The reason he did this is because he has never, and will never, have a -blam!- clue what he is talking about."

  • 11.25.2011 5:27 AM PDT

@^ Source?

  • 11.25.2011 5:47 AM PDT

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Posted by: A Modest Otter
1. Territories either too close together or too far apart

I believe you're talking about Spire when you say too far apart, and I agree. I don't like how as an Elite I can only defend one area at a time. This makes combat too slow because at times all the action will be on one side and I'm sitting on the other side twiddling my thumbs guarding the other territory.

Breakpoint got the distance right; it's just out of sprinting distance on there. It really depends for each map, because some might be far apart but easier to defend due to a change in the LoS and positiong of the defenders.


2. Starting weapons are crap and loadouts are bad in general (AL/Shotgun, etc.)

I don't know if you were there when DMRs were starting weapons for Boneyard's 1st phase in the Beta. It was...interesting to say the least. It'd be a disaster now though because Elites aren't as strong as they were back then (and the DMR is stronger than it was as well). I'm not gonna say much about loadouts because it should be common knowledge now how those affect gameplay. Bubble shield huddles around the core, Shotty campers watching each door in the refinery, players ALing in territories, etc. It just slows the game down.

For ODST I wont be putting Drop Shield, Armor Lock, Swords, or Shotguns in any loadouts. I'm also offering DMRs and NRs for players right at the beginning in Phase 1. This'll help them attack the objective and defend themselves better. But there'll still be AR/Pistol and the equivalent for Elites if players prefer to play up close in the territories.


3. Can't see teammate waypoints

This is something that was brought up in the Beta and I was disappointed to see it not addressed. Because we're usually only spawning with our battle bro, we barely see our teammates until we're at the objective. If you don't have a mic or a team it's difficult to coordinate any attack when your teammate's waypoints blend in with the sky or vehicle they're in. We can't even edit it in the options menu either. To lower this effect, I'm funneling players closer together on ODST. This way you'll be working much closer to your teammates regardless of what fireteam they're on.


4. As Bullet said, not enough ammo in some weapons

I agree with this. We can fortunately change the spare clips a weapon on the ground has, but we don't have to ability to edit starting weapon ammo. That'd be something 343i could look into. I think it was done that way with the Magnum for instance to keep it from overpowering Elites. That ended up backfiring though on Spire...


5. Wide open spawns that are easy to camp

Breakpoint went the right route giving attackers high ground. I'm not a fan of the exposed spawns Spartans have on Spire. Yea it gets them to move, but when the Elites come down there to spawn camp the Spartans really don't have anywhere else to go.
Initial spawns should be protected for both teams. That doesn't necessarily mean both teams have to spawn behind shield doors; however, that's one of the ways to make it work. When placing Initial spawns, designers often forget that players might quit out of the game early on. It's not an issue in customs, but that's no excuse for not designing initials properly. It's a lot more difficult (in some cases impossible) to break those spawn camps when you're down a few players.


6. Vehicles and Weapons that can be stolen by the other team

Much like initial spawns, vehicles should somehow be protected from the other team. Breakpoint did a good job, but it's too easy to steal the banshee from Boneyard and Spire. If possible, I advise players to either put vehicles as far as possible from spartan spawns, or to protect them somehow. The latter is safer because you'll get people who camp near enemy spawns waiting for vehicles to arrive.

Weapons don't necessarily need to spawn behind cover. However, if they do, all fireteams should have access to them. Breakpoint's ammo and vehicle cache are separated, meaning if one fireteam isn't using the falcon, then nobody else will be able to use it. That's a simple mistake that can ruin the game in the end.


7. Too many power weapons

It was worse in the Beta when there were 2 rockets, 2 lasers, 2 snipers, and 2 shotguns spawning for the defenders inside the refinery...

The amount of power weapons needed for either side is dependent upon each individual map. I can't sit here and list what a designer needs to put because testing might say otherwise. What I can say though is that neutral power weapons should always be an option. It'll give the teams something to do alongside capturing the objective. This means that if you don't want to farm the territory, you can rush with the other players to go pick up a neutral power weapon that'll help secure your lead. This splits combat up enough so that you aren't all focused on the objective. Map Control/Weapon Control is in essence a second objective in this case.


8. Spawning is either too quick or too delayed at times

I once heard a few people complaining that defenders would spawn too quickly. I believe the next spawn time up from 5 seconds is 10, which would be too long because the rounds are only 4 minutes long. If we could edit species-specific traits, we'd be able to give defenders slightly longer spawn times than attackers. Unfortunately though we cannot. What we can do, however, is to make defenders spawn a little further away from the objective so they aren't right on top of the territory when they respawn.


9. Vehicles spawning too quickly

This is once again because the rounds are 4 minutes long. Bungie wanted to give players as much time with vehicles as possible. Obviously 30 seconds for a tank is a bit extreme, which is why (again) it is dependent on each individual map. One map might work with 30, and another might work with 60 seconds. I don't know if I'm having Tanks on ODST, but Mongooses will be at 30 seconds and Ghosts will be at 45.


10.Too much time spent walking to the objective

This is another thing I don't like about Spire. We spend half of the match walking to the objective and barely any time fighting around it. If you're going for the slower paced, Stealth phases like Spire, It'd be wiser to design it like Boneyard. There's enough structure around the territories, allowing you to spawn teammates nearby and quicken the pace of the first phase.

I'm following the Adrenaline phase design for the ODST map, which will put players in combat in roughly 10-15 seconds. This speeds up the pace of the game because there are more Instances of Combat occuring. That means less time walking to the objective and more time fighting for it. Players should be able to get right back into the action, lest they become bored of the map.




So if all of those issues you listed were fixed, would you still think Invasion was a 'stupid' gametype? I had the exact issues that you did with it as well, which is why I'm making my own version of Invasion. It's going to be faster paced, more balanced, and I'm hoping my ambitions will set the example for all Invasion forgers out there. Bungie's Invasion isn't the only way to build Invasion.

[Edited on 11.25.2011 5:54 AM PST]

  • 11.25.2011 5:52 AM PDT

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