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Subject: Return of 60 councilors: My Failure
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What you are about to read is the torrent of misery I endured in Halo 2 yesterday. Don't interpret me wrong. I'm still a Halo 2 fan. I just gotta share my pain...

I spent 5 hours (an improvement from my previous attempts) trying to get an army of Councilors again (and I succeeded :D. I think I got around 65 this time). To be specific, it took 2 hours and 30 minutes to get 40 Councilors, about 1 hour 30 minutes for 10 more Councilors and 1 more hour for 10-15 more Elites. But things went wrong. So horribly wrong!! :'(

My plan was to get the 60+ Councilors to turn on me then have them charge me and chase me all over the hall. Then when they returned to normal, I would send them to Tartarus for one epic battle. I even made myself invincible by modding just for this planned double event.

But I ran into problems. One was, Elites disappeared when I pushed an Elite too close to them or something. But this wasn't as bad as last time.

The first woe was that there were too many Elites. I couldn't fire my vehicle guns at times and 2 Elites (a Zealot and an Elite Spec Ops) were weaponless. I had to kill off most of my Hunters for more Elites to spawn. I think it's like the AI limit in Halo Wars and that 1 Hunter = 5-10 AI. Last time I tried this, I had the Hunters where Johnson was and they all got removed by the game and I didn't experience any of the above other than the Elite disappearing problem.

The next problem is that the Elites wouldn't turn on me. I killed 3 Spec Ops Elites, 1 Hunter, at least 6 Councilors. All in front of them.

But the worst problem is that I ended up dead when I got desperate. I boosted at the Councilors with the Banshee (it was also in the Banshee that I died in my previous attempt). And I was unkillable!!

Here's a video showing what happened near the end.

So... am I going to try this again? Yes! Except I'm going to keep it at 20-40 Councilors. 60+ Councilors... I can't surpass it!! I wanted 70 but it seems impossible. :'(

TLDR:

I'm sad because I got more than 60 Councilors... again, but couldn't get them to turn on me and I deliberately killed several of them in desperation which made me even more sad and in even more desperation I inexplicably died despite being immune to the death barrier, Tartarus' hammer, assassinations, and death itself and now I'm very, very sad. :(

Also, I think a Halo 2 remake should update the game engine so that it can hold more AI.

[Edited on 11.30.2011 2:52 PM PST]

  • 11.30.2011 2:44 PM PDT

Wow that sucks. I'm pretty sure Bungie has a cap on the amount of active AI, but I think I'm wrong since I know nothing of AI collections.
Posted by: Sliding Ghost

Also, I think a Halo 2 remake should update the game engine so that it can hold more AI.


The thing I hate most about Reach is its inability to hold more large scale AI encounters while the engine is capable of it.
^
/Rant

  • 11.30.2011 3:00 PM PDT

Heres a little overcomplicated way of telling you what happened. There are many different terms used for the control systems in Halo 2 and all games with AI, but I prefer calling them "directors", since what they basically do. What was affecting you was a clash with the AI Director and Spawning Director.

You had spawned in around 60+ Elites and other AI. This was maxing out space in memory for the AI director(It wasn't designed to be that big in the first place.). This is the reason why betraying them didn't do anything, they simply didn't have the extra room in memory to mass fire at you, and the AI director stopped them.

When you flew your banshee at them, they had to mass collaborate, so the AI director used memory from the Spawning director.(Bungie, believe it or not, had fail safes as advanced as that back then.) Since banshees are not supposed to be in that part of the level, and flying it took up a bit of memory, the spawning director wiped the banshee, and in turn you, from existence.(Also notice how the Spawning Director had already goofed up two of the elites with no weapons.)

In short, you found a way to overload the map and kill yourself in the process.

  • 11.30.2011 4:39 PM PDT
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Posted by: InvasionImminent
Wow that sucks. I'm pretty sure Bungie has a cap on the amount of active AI, but I think I'm wrong since I know nothing of AI collections.
Posted by: Sliding Ghost

Also, I think a Halo 2 remake should update the game engine so that it can hold more AI.


The thing I hate most about Reach is its inability to hold more large scale AI encounters while the engine is capable of it.
^
/Rant
On the bright side, I just tried it again and it turns out only 1 Banshee is needed as blockade material. Less hours of painful work. I'm going to have to revise my tutorial.

I think you mean how Bungie implemented the encounters. Reach could hold large scale AI encounters but it wasn't very impressive. It was actually at it's limit. On LNoS, the game removes dead bodies and weapons when you're not looking, even weapons you have already picked up. If it did not do this, the level would probably overload.

  • 11.30.2011 5:21 PM PDT
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Posted by: Dark Hunter21
Heres a little overcomplicated way of telling you what happened. There are many different terms used for the control systems in Halo 2 and all games with AI, but I prefer calling them "directors", since what they basically do. What was affecting you was a clash with the AI Director and Spawning Director.

You had spawned in around 60+ Elites and other AI. This was maxing out space in memory for the AI director(It wasn't designed to be that big in the first place.). This is the reason why betraying them didn't do anything, they simply didn't have the extra room in memory to mass fire at you, and the AI director stopped them.

When you flew your banshee at them, they had to mass collaborate, so the AI director used memory from the Spawning director.(Bungie, believe it or not, had fail safes as advanced as that back then.) Since banshees are not supposed to be in that part of the level, and flying it took up a bit of memory, the spawning director wiped the banshee, and in turn you, from existence.(Also notice how the Spawning Director had already goofed up two of the elites with no weapons.)

In short, you found a way to overload the map and kill yourself in the process.
Are you a modder?!

  • 11.30.2011 5:24 PM PDT

Yeah, bummer. Pissing off AI does not always work and I found that more times than not it does not work. However, with you having the overload stuff going on I think in this case you will never piss them off. I don't remember anyone ever overloading a Halo game using only Covenant AI so at least that is something cool.

On my QZ overload I had to cut the collection down a bit too so I could get better results.

  • 11.30.2011 5:33 PM PDT
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Posted by: Grumpy1
Yeah, bummer. Pissing off AI does not always work and I found that more times than not it does not work. However, with you having the overload stuff going on I think in this case you will never piss them off.

I don't remember anyone ever overloading a Halo game using only Covenant AI so at least that is something cool.

On my QZ overload I had to cut the collection down a bit too so I could get better results.
True.

Also true.

Better results?

Btw, if it is still possible to betray them at this point, then I may have just been doing it wrong. I sniped 2 Spec Ops Elites with the beam rifle right now and my allies easily turned against me. I have about 30 Councilors atm. This new method I've invented allows me to cut the time drastically. Now you only need 2 Banshees (1 for flying to Tartarus), a Spectre, and a Wraith instead of 3 Banshees and 1 Spectre.

  • 11.30.2011 6:15 PM PDT

If you kill two in any fashion it should turn them against you, if not then start over. I just don't know about a massive overload, like with your 60+ Elites.

Better results means not so much disappearing. It's one thing to watch weird stuff but if nothing loads or everything vanishes, I have to lesson the overload.

  • 11.30.2011 6:21 PM PDT


Posted by: Sliding Ghost

Posted by: Dark Hunter21
Heres a little overcomplicated way of telling you what happened. There are many different terms used for the control systems in Halo 2 and all games with AI, but I prefer calling them "directors", since what they basically do. What was affecting you was a clash with the AI Director and Spawning Director.

You had spawned in around 60+ Elites and other AI. This was maxing out space in memory for the AI director(It wasn't designed to be that big in the first place.). This is the reason why betraying them didn't do anything, they simply didn't have the extra room in memory to mass fire at you, and the AI director stopped them.

When you flew your banshee at them, they had to mass collaborate, so the AI director used memory from the Spawning director.(Bungie, believe it or not, had fail safes as advanced as that back then.) Since banshees are not supposed to be in that part of the level, and flying it took up a bit of memory, the spawning director wiped the banshee, and in turn you, from existence.(Also notice how the Spawning Director had already goofed up two of the elites with no weapons.)

In short, you found a way to overload the map and kill yourself in the process.
Are you a modder?!


No, I had a friend who modded Halo 2 Vista for a while, and he showed me the inner workings of the Campaign levels. Its funny looking at all that complex code, and then watching a pair of ODST's in Delta Halo blow themselves up...Halo 2 was the best.

  • 11.30.2011 6:27 PM PDT


Posted by: Dark Hunter21
Heres a little overcomplicated way of telling you what happened. There are many different terms used for the control systems in Halo 2 and all games with AI, but I prefer calling them "directors", since what they basically do. What was affecting you was a clash with the AI Director and Spawning Director.

You had spawned in around 60+ Elites and other AI. This was maxing out space in memory for the AI director(It wasn't designed to be that big in the first place.). This is the reason why betraying them didn't do anything, they simply didn't have the extra room in memory to mass fire at you, and the AI director stopped them.

When you flew your banshee at them, they had to mass collaborate, so the AI director used memory from the Spawning director.(Bungie, believe it or not, had fail safes as advanced as that back then.) Since banshees are not supposed to be in that part of the level, and flying it took up a bit of memory, the spawning director wiped the banshee, and in turn you, from existence.(Also notice how the Spawning Director had already goofed up two of the elites with no weapons.)

In short, you found a way to overload the map and kill yourself in the process.
If you take the objects of the overload and distribute them in other rooms/maps, you can spawn more AI.

When doing a massive Ghost overload on QZ I found that there were 'safe' places to stash vehicles so that they would not vanish. If you try to put too many objects in one map, the spawning will stop or lots of Ghosts vanish. At one point 120 was the limit but when I discovered the safe areas and moved Ghosts to those places, I could collect in excess of 230+ Ghosts and the overload carried to the end cutscene.

The structure of QZ was map within map within map...so there were at least 6 major map overlaps so I think that accounted for the cutscene glitching.

  • 11.30.2011 7:25 PM PDT
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Posted by: Grumpy1
If you kill two in any fashion it should turn them against you, if not then start over. I just don't know about a massive overload, like with your 60+ Elites.

Better results means not so much disappearing. It's one thing to watch weird stuff but if nothing loads or everything vanishes, I have to lesson the overload.
In that case, I have nothing to worry about because the Elites don't disappear unless I put them in a line of 20 (very little space) and then push an Elite towards an Elite in that line.

Posted by: Dark Hunter21

No, I had a friend who modded Halo 2 Vista for a while, and he showed me the inner workings of the Campaign levels. Its funny looking at all that complex code, and then watching a pair of ODST's in Delta Halo blow themselves up...Halo 2 was the best.
You're very lucky. These days, there aren't many H2 Vista modders. If you don't mind me asking, what did he mod Halo 2 Vista campaign with? Hex modding?

Posted by: Grumpy1

If you take the objects of the overload and distribute them in other rooms/maps, you can spawn more AI.

When doing a massive Ghost overload on QZ I found that there were 'safe' places to stash vehicles so that they would not vanish. If you try to put too many objects in one map, the spawning will stop or lots of Ghosts vanish. At one point 120 was the limit but when I discovered the safe areas and moved Ghosts to those places, I could collect in excess of 230+ Ghosts and the overload carried to the end cutscene.

The structure of QZ was map within map within map...so there were at least 6 major map overlaps so I think that accounted for the cutscene glitching.
I think I'll try that then. I have like 50 right now. And it's only taken me 3 hours this time.

Map within map within map? Are these safe zones exclusively limited to loading points or it doesn't matter? I did notice when I allowed some Zealots to go to Tartarus, the results were better.

[Edited on 11.30.2011 9:13 PM PST]

  • 11.30.2011 9:12 PM PDT
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Update: My most recent attempt was a disaster as well.

This time, I managed to make 20-30 Councilors jump to Tartarus' platform. I had assembled at least 50 Councilors and I was able to get them to turn on me.

But my Banshee was hijacked (by a Councilor and I don't know what happened to him) and I didn't bring along my Brute Shot so I was somewhat stranded. I misjudged the force of a plasma grenade and missed the lower moving platform and there was no way back up (I was very close to getting the Elites to fight Tartarus). I now think it is possible to get Hunters in the cutscene. I also want to try getting 3 Banshees piloted by Elites at the same time.

After a long break, I'm going to reattempt this with a little more modding:

-shotgun spawns a Banshee
-infinite ammo Brute Shot
-infinite ammo Beam Rifle

  • 12.01.2011 12:19 AM PDT


Posted by: Sliding Ghost
Update: My most recent attempt was a disaster as well.

This time, I managed to make 20-30 Councilors jump to Tartarus' platform. I had assembled at least 50 Councilors and I was able to get them to turn on me.

But my Banshee was hijacked (by a Councilor and I don't know what happened to him) and I didn't bring along my Brute Shot so I was somewhat stranded. I misjudged the force of a plasma grenade and missed the lower moving platform and there was no way back up (I was very close to getting the Elites to fight Tartarus). I now think it is possible to get Hunters in the cutscene. I also want to try getting 3 Banshees piloted by Elites at the same time.

After a long break, I'm going to reattempt this with a little more modding:

-shotgun spawns a Banshee
-infinite ammo Brute Shot
-infinite ammo Beam Rifle
ROFL, I didn't think they would hijack Banshees in there. That would be hilarious and awesome to see 3 Banshees flying around and Hunters in the cutscene. Maybe the Banshees can be flown in the cutscene?

  • 12.01.2011 12:55 AM PDT
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Posted by: Grumpy1

Posted by: Sliding Ghost
Update: My most recent attempt was a disaster as well.

This time, I managed to make 20-30 Councilors jump to Tartarus' platform. I had assembled at least 50 Councilors and I was able to get them to turn on me.

But my Banshee was hijacked (by a Councilor and I don't know what happened to him) and I didn't bring along my Brute Shot so I was somewhat stranded. I misjudged the force of a plasma grenade and missed the lower moving platform and there was no way back up (I was very close to getting the Elites to fight Tartarus). I now think it is possible to get Hunters in the cutscene. I also want to try getting 3 Banshees piloted by Elites at the same time.

After a long break, I'm going to reattempt this with a little more modding:

-shotgun spawns a Banshee
-infinite ammo Brute Shot
-infinite ammo Beam Rifle
ROFL, I didn't think they would hijack Banshees in there. That would be hilarious and awesome to see 3 Banshees flying around and Hunters in the cutscene.

Maybe the Banshees can be flown in the cutscene?
My fear of Councilors were intensified 10 fold when that happened. I'm unsure what happened to him after he hijacked the Banshee but I'll upload a video of it. As for the Hunters in cutscene, I now think it's possible.

It's probable the Banshee also can be flown.

I also haven't forgotten about the beam rifle Councilors. I'll upload footage of that as well.

  • 12.01.2011 4:49 PM PDT


Posted by: Sliding Ghost
My fear of Councilors were intensified 10 fold when that happened. I'm unsure what happened to him after he hijacked the Banshee but I'll upload a video of it. As for the Hunters in cutscene, I now think it's possible.

It's probable the Banshee also can be flown.

I also haven't forgotten about the beam rifle Councilors. I'll upload footage of that as well.
Take your time, it's more fun to watch if I know you are having fun doing it. Just thinking about a Banshee or 2 flying around in the cutscene is intriguing, the AI are animated and we know that so it should happen. Maybe they'll swoop down on the dead Tartarus and shoot randomly at him, lol.

[Edited on 12.01.2011 5:42 PM PST]

  • 12.01.2011 5:41 PM PDT
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Sometimes, I dream about cheese.

Sliding Ghost, its been over a week and still no video of you taking an army of councilors into battle with tartarus!
i wants to see you do it!
why you are you not giving me what i wants! :(

[Edited on 12.01.2011 7:55 PM PST]

  • 12.01.2011 7:55 PM PDT
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Posted by: path1k
Sliding Ghost, its been over a week and still no video of you taking an army of councilors into battle with tartarus!
i wants to see you do it!
why you are you not giving me what i wants! :(
I'll get the video made before Dec. 4.

I alternate between H1 and H2 per day so today I was playing CE, tomorrow I'll be playing H2.

Posted by: Grumpy1

Posted by: Sliding Ghost
My fear of Councilors were intensified 10 fold when that happened. I'm unsure what happened to him after he hijacked the Banshee but I'll upload a video of it. As for the Hunters in cutscene, I now think it's possible.

It's probable the Banshee also can be flown.

I also haven't forgotten about the beam rifle Councilors. I'll upload footage of that as well.
Take your time, it's more fun to watch if I know you are having fun doing it.

Just thinking about a Banshee or 2 flying around in the cutscene is intriguing, the AI are animated and we know that so it should happen. Maybe they'll swoop down on the dead Tartarus and shoot randomly at him, lol.
Thanks for your concern.

I could probably get a Banshee in the cutscene. Like vultures or kamikaze Banshees in Reach?

  • 12.01.2011 10:22 PM PDT
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Sometimes, I dream about cheese.


Posted by: Sliding Ghost

Posted by: path1k
Sliding Ghost, its been over a week and still no video of you taking an army of councilors into battle with tartarus!
i wants to see you do it!
why you are you not giving me what i wants! :(
I'll get the video made before Dec. 4.
thanks : )

  • 12.01.2011 10:41 PM PDT
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Posted by: Grumpy1

Take your time, it's more fun to watch if I know you are having fun doing it. Just thinking about a Banshee or 2 flying around in the cutscene is intriguing, the AI are animated and we know that so it should happen. Maybe they'll swoop down on the dead Tartarus and shoot randomly at him, lol.
Hey Grumpy, I just realized that there's like 12-20 Banshees you can bring into the control room. It would take a lot of time but I'm pretty sure I could get them all flying around in the hall. :P

Posted by: path1k

Posted by: Sliding Ghost

Posted by: path1k
Sliding Ghost, its been over a week and still no video of you taking an army of councilors into battle with tartarus!
i wants to see you do it!
why you are you not giving me what i wants! :(
I'll get the video made before Dec. 4.
thanks : )
np

  • 12.02.2011 11:14 AM PDT


Posted by: Sliding Ghost

Posted by: path1k
Sliding Ghost, its been over a week and still no video of you taking an army of councilors into battle with tartarus!
i wants to see you do it!
why you are you not giving me what i wants! :(
I'll get the video made before Dec. 4.

<3

  • 12.02.2011 11:22 AM PDT
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Posted by: InvasionImminent

Posted by: Sliding Ghost

Posted by: path1k
Sliding Ghost, its been over a week and still no video of you taking an army of councilors into battle with tartarus!
i wants to see you do it!
why you are you not giving me what i wants! :(
I'll get the video made before Dec. 4.

<3
;)

I just did the Banshee vs. Tartarus thing. I used my Banshee spawner mod to add more Banshees.

Here's an AI Banshee vs. Tartarus battle + cutscene which unfortunately doesn't have the Banshee in it (they're very persistent about moving forward).

My test results:

-Banshees will just go forward if there's no enemy (even into the death barrier). They will only move/fight actively if they see an enemy. On the other hand, they might have some sense as seen in the video before the cutscene
-it's very difficult to steer them when they're inactive
-by making allies turn against you, you can lure them to Tartarus or just have them follow you (just put Tartarus at the bottom platform before luring them). You may have to move them out of their position to coerce them

So yes, Banshees can fight Tartarus. But no, they don't do anything in the cutscene. :( And yes, you can get 10+ Banshees swarming Tartarus.

Btw, notice how the Wraith falls through the floor in the cutscene. If I put a bunch of Banshees in the hall, maybe they'll fall through and fly around outside the control room!! :D

Next up is path1k's request. Beam rifle + carbine army of Councilors. I don't know if I'll be able to get a lot while having enough room to snipe Tartarus. I could probably get like 10-20. I'm hoping the AI will be like the ones I worked with in H3 and crouch when an AI is behind him.

Then I'll be uploading the remnants of my failure. I managed to get half of my army to jump to Tartarus' platform but my Banshee was hijacked and I lost my reasoning and tried to grenade jump to one of the moving platforms rather than betray a few Elites and lure the rest (they never try to go to the top platform so I can just cloak, go up, and shoot my gun and they'll all jump).

  • 12.02.2011 1:30 PM PDT
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Ok, today I'm doing path1k's request. Beam Rifle councilors are hard to come by (as are the beam rifles themselves. No one but Councilors spawn with them), so I'm aiming for at least 10 beam rifle Councilors, by then I'll have at least 30-40 sword Councilors (and I would have had several carbine councilors if I didn't give them the sword. I can't resist :P).

On a side note,

-I got Tartarus stuck on the top platform, which may be more convenient
-I finally got a good setup using the 3 Banshees, 1 Wraith, 1 Spectre: 2 Banshees block the path, 1 Wraith next to Johnson, and 1 Spectre to retain Elites. And I use 1 of the Banshee blockades to make the Elites I don't want dive off (and the Wraith stops them from running to Tartarus). To temporarily retain Elites, I just move them somewhere where they won't run off.

[Edited on 12.04.2011 12:43 PM PST]

  • 12.04.2011 11:53 AM PDT


Posted by: Sliding Ghost
Ok, today I'm doing path1k's request. Beam Rifle councilors are hard to come by (as are the beam rifles themselves. No one but Councilors spawn with them), so I'm aiming for at least 10 beam rifle Councilors, by then I'll have at least 30-40 sword Councilors (and I would have had several carbine councilors if I didn't give them the sword. I can't resist :P).

On a side note,

-I got Tartarus stuck on the top platform, which may be more convenient
-I finally got a good setup using the 3 Banshees, 1 Wraith, 1 Spectre: 2 Banshees block the path, 1 Wraith next to Johnson, and 1 Spectre to retain Elites. And I use 1 of the Banshee blockades to make the Elites I don't want dive off (and the Wraith stops them from running to Tartarus). To temporarily retain Elites, I just move them somewhere where they won't run off.
What? Tartarus is stuck on the upper platform? I didn't think that was possible, lol. I want to see that.

  • 12.04.2011 12:34 PM PDT
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Posted by: Grumpy1

Posted by: Sliding Ghost
Ok, today I'm doing path1k's request. Beam Rifle councilors are hard to come by (as are the beam rifles themselves. No one but Councilors spawn with them), so I'm aiming for at least 10 beam rifle Councilors, by then I'll have at least 30-40 sword Councilors (and I would have had several carbine councilors if I didn't give them the sword. I can't resist :P).

On a side note,

-I got Tartarus stuck on the top platform, which may be more convenient
-I finally got a good setup using the 3 Banshees, 1 Wraith, 1 Spectre: 2 Banshees block the path, 1 Wraith next to Johnson, and 1 Spectre to retain Elites. And I use 1 of the Banshee blockades to make the Elites I don't want dive off (and the Wraith stops them from running to Tartarus). To temporarily retain Elites, I just move them somewhere where they won't run off.
What? Tartarus is stuck on the upper platform? I didn't think that was possible, lol. I want to see that.
Yep. He's stuck on the edge and Johnson can see through the floor and still tries to snipe him. I'll get a clip uploaded once I get 10 beam rifle councilors. Right now I've got about 5.

Btw, while you guys wait, here's something to eat you up in horror er I mean appetize you. A taste of the epicness that is to come. :D Let your imaginations run wild as the control room becomes... combat evolved. ;D

Ghosts, Banshees, Hunters, commander Rtas Vadum, Spec Ops Elite division, Councilors, a Wraith, infinite waves of Elites vs. Tartarus

Of course, I'm not going to be the one who does that. Getting all the Banshees and Ghosts of this level in one place is too time consuming and not worth it.

Edit:

Ah hell, I'm in a good mood right now. I'll upload a video soon enough. I took your advice and moved some Elites to another area. To be specific, I isolated the beam rifle Councilors so they won't pull out swords when I betray my allies.

[Edited on 12.04.2011 1:03 PM PST]

  • 12.04.2011 12:44 PM PDT

Yes, I AM just that awesome.

Just remember my idea. Occupy Installation 05.

  • 12.04.2011 4:14 PM PDT

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