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Subject: Ending the Bloom Debate Once and for All


Posted by: Pin316
Might have the wrong end of the stick here (in which case, apologies in advance), but didn't the introduction of bloom have a direct negative impact on those people who use modded controllers to fire single shot weapons at a faster rate than should be possible?

If so, then whilst I understand the logic behind the argument for removal of bloom in an idealistic space, I actually appreciate it being in the game to counter such mods.

As said - could have this wrong...i know that it is definitely a factor in some other games, but not sure if Halo is one of them.


Pffft you really think one element coded into the gameplay will stop people from modding controls or toying around to create rapid fire DMRs?

  • 11.30.2011 11:37 PM PDT


Posted by: Scarlet SphereWhat is bloom?
Bloom is the gradual decrease in accuracy that occurs when a precision weapon is fired rapidly.

  • 11.30.2011 11:39 PM PDT


Posted by: Hymn
Wait... So, what I gather is that someone that has an MLG account posted his opinions on the matter and since there is such a wide agreement on the subject they couldn't possibly be wrong?

I guess the world was never flat either?...


What, so one thread containing a couple of well-written arguments which have yet to have been refuted by any posters, and has vast support by the competitive community is automatically wrong?

Pretty sure the world is round.

  • 11.30.2011 11:42 PM PDT


Posted by: EGO SUM OPTIMUS
but either way, bloom or zero-bloom, spamming at mid-range is an issue. But I would be willing to adapt either way 343 Industries takes it.


One thing wrong with your argument:
"Spamming" is an element of gameplay only when Bloom is in a playlist. Without Bloom, it's called "shooting", because everyone tries to maximize their rate of fire while remaining as accurate as possible, which makes people wonder why Bloom was even implemented in the first place.

  • 11.30.2011 11:45 PM PDT
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RoF is irrelevant. You took a mod and said since Rate of Fire can be capped that means no mod.

Mods existed with Bloom but were less of an issue since the effectiveness was min...

W/B DMR= rapid fire is capped. The functionality of bloom would actually decrease the usefulness of rapid fire. We aren't talking about rate of bullets fired. we are talking about how many bullets per spread to be effective.

Naturally the opposite would occur.
WO/B DMR becomes much more of an automatic weapon than the single shot fury it was. It is based on the principle of every pull of the trigger being exactly as accurate as the previous one. This makes rapid fire more of an issue. Not nearly as big as H3 but still a bigger issue than a weapon with bloom.

  • 11.30.2011 11:45 PM PDT
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Posted by: Drowsy Demon

Posted by: Hymn
Wait... So, what I gather is that someone that has an MLG account posted his opinions on the matter and since there is such a wide agreement on the subject they couldn't possibly be wrong?

I guess the world was never flat either?...


What, so one thread containing a couple of well-written arguments which have yet to have been refuted by any posters, and has vast support by the competitive community is automatically wrong?

Pretty sure the world is round.


I was asking you if you thought that because the majority of the people agree on something that makes it a fact? The world was, is, and always will be round you dunce. The majority of a population once believed the world was flat so, I ask again why is it that people assume popularity is correct. It took the death of a genius to figure out society was wrong about the world. How much will it take to release your stubborness?

  • 11.30.2011 11:50 PM PDT


Posted by: Hymn
RoF is irrelevant. You took a mod and said since Rate of Fire can be capped that means no mod.

Mods existed with Bloom but were less of an issue since the effectiveness was min...

W/B DMR= rapid fire is capped. The functionality of bloom would actually decrease the usefulness of rapid fire. We aren't talking about rate of bullets fired. we are talking about how many bullets per spread to be effective.

Naturally the opposite would occur.
WO/B DMR becomes much more of an automatic weapon than the single shot fury it was. It is based on the principle of every pull of the trigger being exactly as accurate as the previous one. This makes rapid fire more of an issue. Not nearly as big as H3 but still a bigger issue than a weapon with bloom.


You idiot, the video was showcasing how even with Bloom, modded controllers or other equipment that gives players unfair advantages over other people would not be negated. It was completely irrelevant to actual Bloom discussion. Anyways, you're dead wrong. Without Bloom, "rapid fire" doesn't become an issue because the whole idea of spamming is only applicable when a Bloom system is in place.

[Edited on 12.01.2011 12:20 AM PST]

  • 12.01.2011 12:15 AM PDT


Posted by: Hymn

Posted by: Drowsy Demon

Posted by: Hymn
Wait... So, what I gather is that someone that has an MLG account posted his opinions on the matter and since there is such a wide agreement on the subject they couldn't possibly be wrong?

I guess the world was never flat either?...


What, so one thread containing a couple of well-written arguments which have yet to have been refuted by any posters, and has vast support by the competitive community is automatically wrong?

Pretty sure the world is round.


I was asking you if you thought that because the majority of the people agree on something that makes it a fact? The world was, is, and always will be round you dunce. The majority of a population once believed the world was flat so, I ask again why is it that people assume popularity is correct. It took the death of a genius to figure out society was wrong about the world. How much will it take to release your stubborness?


Yeah no -blam!- -blam!- brah. I was being condescending since you state how something is wrong when it has yet to have been disproved, and then you attack me for using the same generalization. This has nothing to do with popularity. Like so many others have had the pleasure of banging into my head, the competitive crowd is a MINORITY. However, when MLG (the actual organization) achieves consensus, it's right from a competitive perspective, because there are no other massive organizations designated as arbiters of competitive play for Halo.

Because really, who argues for Bloom and is part of said competitive crowd? Uhh...let me think....no one.

[Edited on 12.01.2011 12:23 AM PST]

  • 12.01.2011 12:20 AM PDT
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Posted by: Drowsy Demon

You idiot, the video was showcasing how even with Bloom, modded controllers or other equipment that gives players unfair advantages over other people would not be negated. It was completely irrelevant to actual Bloom discussion. Anyways, you're dead wrong. Without Bloom, "rapid fire" doesn't become an issue because the whole idea of spamming is only applicable when a Bloom system is in place.


You are either extremely drunk or a complete moron....I never said mods didn't exist with bloom. The effects weren't negated...

Posted by: Hymn
Mods existed with Bloom but were less of an issue since the effectiveness was min...


Spamming exists in No BLOOM... You have a limited RoF but people still max it out. What evidence do you have that NO BLOOM= NO SPAM. None. Why, because people no longer have to worry about the degradation of their accuracy.

Now to address your other illogical post later... Don't worry. It will happen just not right now. I've been in too good of a mood to argue with the likes of unintelligent gamers.

[Edited on 12.01.2011 12:33 AM PST]

  • 12.01.2011 12:33 AM PDT


Posted by: Hymn
Mods existed with Bloom but were less of an issue since the effectiveness was min...[/quote]


Right here brah.

This is what I was responding to. I said that even with Bloom mod effectiveness was not negated. You said with Bloom, mod effectiveness was minimized. Hint: It wasn't, and I proved that with the video. I never said you denied that mods could work with Bloom. Learn to read my -blam!- post.

[Edited on 12.01.2011 12:38 AM PST]

  • 12.01.2011 12:37 AM PDT


Posted by: Hymn
Spamming exists in No BLOOM... You have a limited RoF but people still max it out. What evidence do you have that NO BLOOM= NO SPAM. None. Why, because people no longer have to worry about the degradation of their accuracy.


Alright you got a point here but it's mainly an issue of clarification. What I wanted to say was that with no Bloom, everyone fires at their fastest ROF while still trying to maintain their accuracy. I didn't mean to imply that firing fast was impossible with no bloom, just that the gameplay concepts of "Spam" and "Pace" are non-existent in no-bloom gametypes. Got it memorized?

  • 12.01.2011 12:40 AM PDT

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Posted by: LordMonkey
Listing anything to support an opinion won't make it a fact. If someone prefers bloom, then they prefer it. If someone prefers no bloom, then they prefer it. No one is right.

  • 12.01.2011 7:34 AM PDT

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Posted by: An average gamer
lol Bloom is so bad, yet CoD: Black Ops was added to the MLG events. Gears is also being looked at. Both games have all sorts of bloom in them.

Bloom is clealy an accepted game mechanic in the competitive community, it was simply implemented poorly in Reach.


this.

  • 12.01.2011 7:37 AM PDT

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  • 12.01.2011 7:41 AM PDT

Randomness does not equal skill. The end

  • 12.01.2011 7:44 AM PDT

This sig will Self-Destruct in 3.... 2.... 1.... Thank you for your time. Cookie?

tbh, around the beginning of the second page, I lost track of the argument.

  • 12.01.2011 7:51 AM PDT

yo OP
no one cares loser
its all opinion anyway
derp.

  • 12.01.2011 7:59 AM PDT


Posted by: Drowsy Demon

Posted by: EGO SUM OPTIMUS
but either way, bloom or zero-bloom, spamming at mid-range is an issue. But I would be willing to adapt either way 343 Industries takes it.


One thing wrong with your argument:
"Spamming" is an element of gameplay only when Bloom is in a playlist. Without Bloom, it's called "shooting", because everyone tries to maximize their rate of fire while remaining as accurate as possible, which makes people wonder why Bloom was even implemented in the first place.

I suppose you're right. But then as a trade off to zero-bloom, shouldn't the rate of fire be decreased as well?

  • 12.01.2011 10:18 AM PDT

Fact, bloom is -blam!-. Does not belong in a halo game. Only people that like it are kids who suck without it because they got no strafe.

True talk.

  • 12.01.2011 10:30 AM PDT

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"Ending the Bloom debate."

Not -blam!- likely...... It's like trying to force everyone to accept that armor lock is terrible. Your going to have people who strongly disagree and thus the *finger quotes* debate continues....

  • 12.01.2011 10:32 AM PDT
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Posted by: Drowsy Demon

Alright you got a point here but it's mainly an issue of clarification. What I wanted to say was that with no Bloom, everyone fires at their fastest ROF while still trying to maintain their accuracy. I didn't mean to imply that firing fast was impossible with no bloom, just that the gameplay concepts of "Spam" and "Pace" are non-existent in no-bloom gametypes. Got it memorized?



I fail to see how this would be a counter argument to the effectiveness of rapid fire since with bloom there is inconsistency and without it it becomes a hyper powerful automatic death ray. Yes with bloom, rapid fire is still possible but less effective in some scenarios. Make the same video with no bloom and you will see that anyone with decent aim will seemingly one shot their opponent every time. If you notice in your video it took more shots because bloom degrades accuracy naturally. You actually proved my point somehow?

Posted by: Drowsy Demon
Yeah no -blam!- -blam!- brah. I was being condescending since you state how something is wrong when it has yet to have been disproved, and then you attack me for using the same generalization. This has nothing to do with popularity. Like so many others have had the pleasure of banging into my head, the competitive crowd is a MINORITY. However, when MLG (the actual organization) achieves consensus, it's right from a competitive perspective, because there are no other massive organizations designated as arbiters of competitive play for Halo.

Because really, who argues for Bloom and is part of said competitive crowd? Uhh...let me think....no one.


So, you are saying that since the science community was the only organization to clarify facts about the world and ultimately the universe, no one could possible disagree with them without being a complete idiot? So the world is in fact flat because Eratosthenes never accomplished the task of measuring the circumference of the earth?

A fact- a Greek mathmetician and geographer named Eratosthenes measured the circumference of the earth way back in the 3rd century B.C.E. Well see his idea was completely correct and wasn't widely accepted until after his death. Point of this logic? I have my own theory on bloom that I have proven on this forum but explaining it over and over is like beating a dead horse. I am acquiring arthritis just trying to enlighten the people about how backwards and flawed their logic is... In fact, most of the time my responses have been "youre bad". No actual topical rebuttle. Just a simple flame phrase.

  • 12.01.2011 1:39 PM PDT


Posted by: Hymn

Posted by: Drowsy Demon

Alright you got a point here but it's mainly an issue of clarification. What I wanted to say was that with no Bloom, everyone fires at their fastest ROF while still trying to maintain their accuracy. I didn't mean to imply that firing fast was impossible with no bloom, just that the gameplay concepts of "Spam" and "Pace" are non-existent in no-bloom gametypes. Got it memorized?



I fail to see how this would be a counter argument to the effectiveness of rapid fire since with bloom there is inconsistency and without it it becomes a hyper powerful automatic death ray. Yes with bloom, rapid fire is still possible but less effective in some scenarios. Make the same video with no bloom and you will see that anyone with decent aim will seemingly one shot their opponent every time. If you notice in your video it took more shots because bloom degrades accuracy naturally. You actually proved my point somehow?


Since when was rapid fire an issue of gameplay? You're basically saying that since the kill times are increased with a no-Bloom DMR it's bad for gameplay. Go talk all you want about the no-Bloom DMR being a "hyper-death ray". Guess what? In the MLG playlist, the DMR is a starting weapon for everyone, so weapon balance in the sandbox isn't an issue at all. Inconsistency is horrible for competitive gameplay.



  • 12.01.2011 3:03 PM PDT


Posted by: Hymn
So, you are saying that since the science community was the only organization to clarify facts about the world and ultimately the universe, no one could possible disagree with them without being a complete idiot? So the world is in fact flat because Eratosthenes never accomplished the task of measuring the circumference of the earth?


Your analogy is inherently flawed. Here's a better one: anyone trying to say that MLG is wrong from a competitive perspective of gameplay would be like the village idiot arguing against the guy with 3 PHDs. Yeah, the guy with 3 PHDs can be wrong. Guess what? They're right most of the time anyways.

Are you honestly telling me that, for example, someone who plays Living Dead Grifball Action Sack, and Team Slayer will be able to draw up a compelling argument for keeping Bloom in the game? Perhaps. They're entitled to their opinion. But as soon as they go around posting threads about how great Bloom is for gameplay and how much no-bloom sucks without even understanding why MLG and the competitive community are implementing such measures into the game (when they have discussed it over and over and over again)...well then... it pisses me off.

  • 12.01.2011 3:09 PM PDT

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  • 12.01.2011 3:10 PM PDT


Posted by: Nephilim713
lolmlg


Entire MLG Community>Entire Bungie Community>Entire Waypoint Community



[Edited on 12.01.2011 3:16 PM PST]

  • 12.01.2011 3:16 PM PDT

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