Halo: Reach Forum
This topic has moved here: Subject: Please shut my brother up.
  • Subject: Please shut my brother up.
Subject: Please shut my brother up.

Flash Kicks beat Armor Lock.

TheLab.


Posted by: The Ruckus 2010

Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
No, this would devolve into nothing more than semantics. I could argue that if AA's weren't introduced, there would be no need to cater to them with the map design. There really wasn't a call for jetpacks. I would agree that map design is a huge problem with jetpacks, but ultimately the problem lies with the introduction of jetpacks in the first place.


Except again, you're wrong.


Not really. Halo maps have always been designed a certain way. Again, had AA's not been a prospect in the game, there would be no need to create maps that facilitate their use without breaking gameplay.

I understand that map design is the primary problem with jetpacks as they are, but there would be no need for map design catered to AA's if they weren't introduced in the first place. They could have just stuck to the original formula of making Halo maps and left AA's out. Instead, they didn't and we've seen the result.


Oh Jesus Christ.

"They could have left AAs out."

You do realize map design would have changed if say, Rockets were never introduced, or the Wraith, or the Battle Rifle, right?

  • 12.01.2011 3:17 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

My Level. Get on it.


Posted by: RC Clone
Nope. SouthPole isn't a person. He's the avatar of the force of tryhards everywhere. He stalks the web looking for retards to set straight. He can not be stopped by mere bans or thread locks for he shall rise anew.

Maps suck.
Jetpacks suck.

Yup.

  • 12.01.2011 3:18 PM PDT

Name's John. I'm a 21-year-old firefighter/EMT from lolhio who doubles as a die-hard Halo fan. I've been enjoying the franchise since 2001. My favorite iteration of Halo would have to be Halo 2 simply because I never got to experience the joy of a full-on Halo: CE LAN.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Oh yeah, and boot Zome.


Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
The position being, whether through fault of the maps or implementation, jetpacks do not work well in this game.


But the end result of this is not "more or less the same."

It literally is, because maps weren't designed with a mechanic in mind, that mechanic can now dominate more than it ever should have.

Jet Packs, on their own, are well balanced. It's the maps that make them unbalanced.

It would be the same if the Sniper spawns were all on high ground with lots of cover and a wide open stretch of courtyard for them to fire into.

The Sniper in that situation is not overpowered because the Sniper is overpowered, it's overpowered because the map was designed with the Sniper in a tremendously powerful position and having the map cater to that one position.


If the SR is that overpowered for that particular map, the SR should probably not be on the map then. Same with jetpacks. If the map is clearly not designed for jetpacks, jetpacks should not be usable on that map.

  • 12.01.2011 3:18 PM PDT

Name's John. I'm a 21-year-old firefighter/EMT from lolhio who doubles as a die-hard Halo fan. I've been enjoying the franchise since 2001. My favorite iteration of Halo would have to be Halo 2 simply because I never got to experience the joy of a full-on Halo: CE LAN.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Oh yeah, and boot Zome.


Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010

Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
No, this would devolve into nothing more than semantics. I could argue that if AA's weren't introduced, there would be no need to cater to them with the map design. There really wasn't a call for jetpacks. I would agree that map design is a huge problem with jetpacks, but ultimately the problem lies with the introduction of jetpacks in the first place.


Except again, you're wrong.


Not really. Halo maps have always been designed a certain way. Again, had AA's not been a prospect in the game, there would be no need to create maps that facilitate their use without breaking gameplay.

I understand that map design is the primary problem with jetpacks as they are, but there would be no need for map design catered to AA's if they weren't introduced in the first place. They could have just stuck to the original formula of making Halo maps and left AA's out. Instead, they didn't and we've seen the result.


Oh Jesus Christ.

"They could have left AAs out."

You do realize map design would have changed if say, Rockets were never introduced, or the Wraith, or the Battle Rifle, right?


Rockets have always been in Halo.

Just like a utility weapon.

Just like a tank, even if the Wraith's gameplay differed from the Scorpion's

  • 12.01.2011 3:20 PM PDT

Flash Kicks beat Armor Lock.

TheLab.


Posted by: The Ruckus 2010

Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
The position being, whether through fault of the maps or implementation, jetpacks do not work well in this game.


But the end result of this is not "more or less the same."

It literally is, because maps weren't designed with a mechanic in mind, that mechanic can now dominate more than it ever should have.

Jet Packs, on their own, are well balanced. It's the maps that make them unbalanced.

It would be the same if the Sniper spawns were all on high ground with lots of cover and a wide open stretch of courtyard for them to fire into.

The Sniper in that situation is not overpowered because the Sniper is overpowered, it's overpowered because the map was designed with the Sniper in a tremendously powerful position and having the map cater to that one position.


If the SR is that overpowered for that particular map, the SR should probably not be on the map then. Same with jetpacks. If the map is clearly not designed for jetpacks, jetpacks should not be usable on that map.


Or... you could not design a map with that much imbalance in the first place. Then it's no longer overpowered. And you get to keep the game mechanic.

[Edited on 12.01.2011 3:23 PM PST]

  • 12.01.2011 3:22 PM PDT

Flash Kicks beat Armor Lock.

TheLab.


Posted by: The Ruckus 2010

Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010

Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
No, this would devolve into nothing more than semantics. I could argue that if AA's weren't introduced, there would be no need to cater to them with the map design. There really wasn't a call for jetpacks. I would agree that map design is a huge problem with jetpacks, but ultimately the problem lies with the introduction of jetpacks in the first place.


Except again, you're wrong.


Not really. Halo maps have always been designed a certain way. Again, had AA's not been a prospect in the game, there would be no need to create maps that facilitate their use without breaking gameplay.

I understand that map design is the primary problem with jetpacks as they are, but there would be no need for map design catered to AA's if they weren't introduced in the first place. They could have just stuck to the original formula of making Halo maps and left AA's out. Instead, they didn't and we've seen the result.


Oh Jesus Christ.

"They could have left AAs out."

You do realize map design would have changed if say, Rockets were never introduced, or the Wraith, or the Battle Rifle, right?


Rockets have always been in Halo.

Just like a utility weapon.

Just like a tank, even if the Wraith's gameplay differed from the Scorpion's


I don't remember a Battle Rifle being in Halo CE. Nor do I remember a SMG, or a Mongoose, or a Specter, etc.

If you don't think they took the Battle Rifle into account and made proper changes to Halo 2 maps, you don't know much about map or game design.

[Edited on 12.01.2011 3:26 PM PST]

  • 12.01.2011 3:24 PM PDT

Name's John. I'm a 21-year-old firefighter/EMT from lolhio who doubles as a die-hard Halo fan. I've been enjoying the franchise since 2001. My favorite iteration of Halo would have to be Halo 2 simply because I never got to experience the joy of a full-on Halo: CE LAN.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Oh yeah, and boot Zome.


Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010

Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
The position being, whether through fault of the maps or implementation, jetpacks do not work well in this game.


But the end result of this is not "more or less the same."

It literally is, because maps weren't designed with a mechanic in mind, that mechanic can now dominate more than it ever should have.

Jet Packs, on their own, are well balanced. It's the maps that make them unbalanced.

It would be the same if the Sniper spawns were all on high ground with lots of cover and a wide open stretch of courtyard for them to fire into.

The Sniper in that situation is not overpowered because the Sniper is overpowered, it's overpowered because the map was designed with the Sniper in a tremendously powerful position and having the map cater to that one position.


If the SR is that overpowered for that particular map, the SR should probably not be on the map then. Same with jetpacks. If the map is clearly not designed for jetpacks, jetpacks should not be usable on that map.


Or... you could not design a map with that much imbalance in the first place. Then it's no longer overpowered. And you get to keep the game mechanic.


Why would you go to the trouble of completely redesigning the map if only one totally interchangeable element doesn't work on it? There can be maps that the element works on, and others that it doesn't. By that logic, there should be sniper rifles and rocket launchers on every map, even if the maps don't cater to the weapons.

  • 12.01.2011 3:26 PM PDT

Name's John. I'm a 21-year-old firefighter/EMT from lolhio who doubles as a die-hard Halo fan. I've been enjoying the franchise since 2001. My favorite iteration of Halo would have to be Halo 2 simply because I never got to experience the joy of a full-on Halo: CE LAN.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Oh yeah, and boot Zome.


Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010

Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010

Posted by: Darkside Eric


Except again, you're wrong.


Not really. Halo maps have always been designed a certain way. Again, had AA's not been a prospect in the game, there would be no need to create maps that facilitate their use without breaking gameplay.

I understand that map design is the primary problem with jetpacks as they are, but there would be no need for map design catered to AA's if they weren't introduced in the first place. They could have just stuck to the original formula of making Halo maps and left AA's out. Instead, they didn't and we've seen the result.


Oh Jesus Christ.

"They could have left AAs out."

You do realize map design would have changed if say, Rockets were never introduced, or the Wraith, or the Battle Rifle, right?


Rockets have always been in Halo.

Just like a utility weapon.

Just like a tank, even if the Wraith's gameplay differed from the Scorpion's


I don't remember a Battle Rifle being in Halo CE. Nor do I remember a SMG, or a Mongoose, or a Specter, etc.

If you don't think they took the Battle Rifle into account and made proper changes to Halo 2 maps, you don't know much about map or game design.


The pistol was your utility weapon. It filled the niche of the BR for CE. The assault rifle behaved very similarly to Halo 2's SMG. The Spectre was nothing more than the Covenant equivalent of the Warthog, and the Mongoose was a fast reconnaissance vehicle like the Ghost was supposed to be, only the Mongoose doesn't shoot. Again, just a counterpart for the opposite faction.

[Edited on 12.01.2011 3:31 PM PST]

  • 12.01.2011 3:30 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Intrepid Legendary Member

When the game is over, the king and pawn go into the same box

I would say there are more or less fine, except in some gametypes and on some maps.

  • 12.01.2011 3:35 PM PDT

Flash Kicks beat Armor Lock.

TheLab.


Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
Why would you go to the trouble of completely redesigning the map if only one totally interchangeable element doesn't work on it? There can be maps that the element works on, and others that it doesn't. By that logic, there should be sniper rifles and rocket launchers on every map, even if the maps don't cater to the weapons.


Why would you design a map at all if not all of your mechanics are fairly balanced on them to the best of their ability?

And no, by that logic there should not be Sniper Rifles and Rockets on every map.

By that logic it means if I am going to link this map to a playlist that includes Jet Pack, or can host Big Team Battle, I should deign the map to properly reflect that.

Just because I created Swords doesn't mean every map should have a Sword on it. But every map that does have a Sword on it should damn well take the Sword into its design.

  • 12.01.2011 3:37 PM PDT

Flash Kicks beat Armor Lock.

TheLab.


Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
The pistol was your utility weapon. It filled the niche of the BR for CE. The assault rifle behaved very similarly to Halo 2's SMG. The Spectre was nothing more than the Covenant equivalent of the Warthog, and the Mongoose was a fast reconnaissance vehicle like the Ghost was supposed to be, only the Mongoose doesn't shoot. Again, just a counterpart for the opposite faction.


Do the Pistol and AR have the same range and work the same as the BR and SMG? Nope, so you need to adjust your design.

Also, if said new items were nothing but "counterparts" then why are there alterations of terrain done between Blood Gulch and Coagulation. If everything is just a simple copy and paste, the maps should be the same since there is no change in gameplay.

  • 12.01.2011 3:39 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

My Level. Get on it.


Posted by: RC Clone
Nope. SouthPole isn't a person. He's the avatar of the force of tryhards everywhere. He stalks the web looking for retards to set straight. He can not be stopped by mere bans or thread locks for he shall rise anew.


Posted by: Darkside Eric

Just because I created Swords doesn't mean every map should have a Sword on it. But every map that does have a Sword on it should damn well take the Sword into its design.


Case in point, Bungie sucks for ruining Halo with Reach, but they suck even more by doing a horrendous job at balancing all of the bull-blam!- that they put in.

  • 12.01.2011 3:41 PM PDT

Name's John. I'm a 21-year-old firefighter/EMT from lolhio who doubles as a die-hard Halo fan. I've been enjoying the franchise since 2001. My favorite iteration of Halo would have to be Halo 2 simply because I never got to experience the joy of a full-on Halo: CE LAN.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Oh yeah, and boot Zome.


Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
Why would you go to the trouble of completely redesigning the map if only one totally interchangeable element doesn't work on it? There can be maps that the element works on, and others that it doesn't. By that logic, there should be sniper rifles and rocket launchers on every map, even if the maps don't cater to the weapons.


Why would you design a map at all if not all of your mechanics are fairly balanced on them to the best of their ability?


Variety. Not every map has to have sniper rifles and rockets in the same way that not every map needs jetpacks.


And no, by that logic there should not be Sniper Rifles and Rockets on every map.

By that logic it means if I am going to link this map to a playlist that includes Jet Pack, or can host Big Team Battle, I should deign the map to properly reflect that.


Or they can just make it so that jetpacks aren't available on maps that they don't work well on.


Just because I created Swords doesn't mean every map should have a Sword on it.

My point exactly...


But every map that does have a Sword on it should damn well take the Sword into its design.

Right, which means that the maps that don't work well with swords shouldn't have swords on them. Just like maps that don't work well with jetpacks shouldn't have jetpacks on them. That doesn't mean every map has to be designed with jetpacks in mind. You could easily leave jetpacks out of the loadout selection for maps that don't facilitate jetpack usage well.

  • 12.01.2011 3:44 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Posted by: Horse Repairman
RC RuNz the internet. Like the superintendent.

Posted by: SouthPoIe
Clone is an internet God.

Posted by: DerpRoids
RC Clone is the anti-thesis of a lurker.

Ruckus, Eric is saying that the maps should have been designed to anticipate the implementation of Jetpacks and how that would affect gameplay.

Eric, Ruckus is saying that the maps were designed and then after the maps were designed, Jetpack got added as a cool new thing.

At the end of the day you both think this mess of the interplay between maps and Jetpacks could have been handled better.

Eric think the maps could have been better.

Ruckus thinks the Jetpack should have been left out.

Either would have made the final product better.

[Edited on 12.01.2011 3:57 PM PST]

  • 12.01.2011 3:46 PM PDT

Flash Kicks beat Armor Lock.

TheLab.


Posted by: SouthPoIe

Posted by: Darkside Eric

Just because I created Swords doesn't mean every map should have a Sword on it. But every map that does have a Sword on it should damn well take the Sword into its design.


Case in point, Bungie sucks for ruining Halo with Reach, but they suck even more by doing a horrendous job at balancing all of the bull-blam!- that they put in.


Some things throughout Halo history has been like that.

One of my favorite, perhaps my favorite Halo map ever, Zanzibar could (with proper coordination) make the Base Spawn much more powerful because both Invisibility and Shotgun where within easy reach.

  • 12.01.2011 3:46 PM PDT

Name's John. I'm a 21-year-old firefighter/EMT from lolhio who doubles as a die-hard Halo fan. I've been enjoying the franchise since 2001. My favorite iteration of Halo would have to be Halo 2 simply because I never got to experience the joy of a full-on Halo: CE LAN.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Oh yeah, and boot Zome.


Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
The pistol was your utility weapon. It filled the niche of the BR for CE. The assault rifle behaved very similarly to Halo 2's SMG. The Spectre was nothing more than the Covenant equivalent of the Warthog, and the Mongoose was a fast reconnaissance vehicle like the Ghost was supposed to be, only the Mongoose doesn't shoot. Again, just a counterpart for the opposite faction.


Do the Pistol and AR have the same range and work the same as the BR and SMG? Nope, so you need to adjust your design.

They were pretty close to my recollection.


Also, if said new items were nothing but "counterparts" then why are there alterations of terrain done between Blood Gulch and Coagulation. If everything is just a simple copy and paste, the maps should be the same since there is no change in gameplay.


Except they added the Banshee to the map. Some of the changes could have been made because they found that the original iteration simply didn't work as well as they thought. You might recall the CE's multiplayer was almost cut, but thrown in last minute. That tends to leave a lot of room for design fallacies.

  • 12.01.2011 3:47 PM PDT

Flash Kicks beat Armor Lock.

TheLab.


Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
That doesn't mean every map has to be designed with jetpacks in mind.


Where did I say every map had to be designed with it in mind?

  • 12.01.2011 3:48 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Posted by: Horse Repairman
RC RuNz the internet. Like the superintendent.

Posted by: SouthPoIe
Clone is an internet God.

Posted by: DerpRoids
RC Clone is the anti-thesis of a lurker.


Posted by: RC Clone
Ruckus, Eric is saying that the maps should have been designed to anticipate the implementation of Jetpacks and how that would affect gameplay.

Eric, Ruckus is saying that the maps were designed and then after the maps were designed, Jetpack got added as a cool new thing.

At the end of the day you both think this mess of the interplay between maps and Jetpacks could have been handled better.

Eric think the maps could have been better.

Ruckus thinks the Jetpack should have been left out.

Either would have made the final product better.

QFT

[Edited on 12.01.2011 3:56 PM PST]

  • 12.01.2011 3:49 PM PDT

Name's John. I'm a 21-year-old firefighter/EMT from lolhio who doubles as a die-hard Halo fan. I've been enjoying the franchise since 2001. My favorite iteration of Halo would have to be Halo 2 simply because I never got to experience the joy of a full-on Halo: CE LAN.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Oh yeah, and boot Zome.


Posted by: RC Clone
Ruckus, Eric is saying that the maps should have been designed to anticipate the implementation of Jetpacks and how of would implement gameplay.

Eric, Ruckus is saying that the maps were designed and then after the maps were designed, Jetpack got added as a cool new thing.

At the end of the day you both think this mess of the interplay between maps and Jetpacks could have been handled better.

Eric think the maps could have been better.

Ruckus thinks the Jetpack should have been left out.

Either would have made the final product better.


Exactly. I'm simply trying to say that neither of us is necessarily wrong.

Eric seems dead-set on asserting the contrary in his favor. I've already acknowledged his viewpoint, yet he still seems to want to destroy mine, despite it being totally plausible and reasonable.

  • 12.01.2011 3:50 PM PDT

Name's John. I'm a 21-year-old firefighter/EMT from lolhio who doubles as a die-hard Halo fan. I've been enjoying the franchise since 2001. My favorite iteration of Halo would have to be Halo 2 simply because I never got to experience the joy of a full-on Halo: CE LAN.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Oh yeah, and boot Zome.


Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
That doesn't mean every map has to be designed with jetpacks in mind.


Where did I say every map had to be designed with it in mind?


Posted by: Darkside Eric
The maps are supposed to be designed in mind with all parts of in-game player controlled content and flow that the game is supposed to have.


[Edited on 12.01.2011 3:52 PM PST]

  • 12.01.2011 3:51 PM PDT

Flash Kicks beat Armor Lock.

TheLab.


Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
Some of the changes could have been made because they found that the original iteration simply didn't work as well as they thought.


That's exactly my point.

You can't design a map with the strictly the original format if you are planning to add in a new element.

You can't design a Halo map to be exactly like a CE map if you're going to include Hornets and the Chopper.

Likewise you can't design a Halo map to be exactly like a Halo 2 map if you're going to include AAs.

  • 12.01.2011 3:53 PM PDT

Jet packs are fine but require no skill. However, a skillful player would know how to use a jet pack well.

  • 12.01.2011 3:54 PM PDT

jetpack breaks map control.

its bad. it ruins gameplay. period.

  • 12.01.2011 3:55 PM PDT

Name's John. I'm a 21-year-old firefighter/EMT from lolhio who doubles as a die-hard Halo fan. I've been enjoying the franchise since 2001. My favorite iteration of Halo would have to be Halo 2 simply because I never got to experience the joy of a full-on Halo: CE LAN.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Oh yeah, and boot Zome.


Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
Some of the changes could have been made because they found that the original iteration simply didn't work as well as they thought.


That's exactly my point.

You can't design a map with the strictly the original format if you are planning to add in a new element.

You can't design a Halo map to be exactly like a CE map if you're going to include Hornets and the Chopper.

Likewise you can't design a Halo map to be exactly like a Halo 2 map if you're going to include AAs.


And I'm not arguing that. I'm simply saying that the introduction of AA's like jetpack is what necessitated maps designed to facilitate them. Without its introduction, there would be no need to design maps for it.

  • 12.01.2011 3:58 PM PDT

Flash Kicks beat Armor Lock.

TheLab.


Posted by: The Ruckus 2010

Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
That doesn't mean every map has to be designed with jetpacks in mind.


Where did I say every map had to be designed with it in mind?


Posted by: Darkside Eric
The maps are supposed to be designed in mind with all parts of in-game player controlled content and flow that the game is supposed to have.


I did say in-game player controlled content.

If that map does not have the Gravity Hammer, that map should not be designed with the Hammer in mind because on that map, the Hammer is not in-game player controlled content.

  • 12.01.2011 3:58 PM PDT