Halo: Reach Forum
This topic has moved here: Subject: Please shut my brother up.
  • Subject: Please shut my brother up.
Subject: Please shut my brother up.

Flash Kicks beat Armor Lock.

TheLab.


Posted by: The Ruckus 2010

Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
Some of the changes could have been made because they found that the original iteration simply didn't work as well as they thought.


That's exactly my point.

You can't design a map with the strictly the original format if you are planning to add in a new element.

You can't design a Halo map to be exactly like a CE map if you're going to include Hornets and the Chopper.

Likewise you can't design a Halo map to be exactly like a Halo 2 map if you're going to include AAs.


And I'm not arguing that. I'm simply saying that the introduction of AA's like jetpack is what necessitated maps designed to facilitate them. Without its introduction, there would be no need to design maps for it.


But that's a moot point. Because again, because they decided to include the Rocket Launcher in CE, they had to design the maps to work with the Rockets.

Any new mechanic, even if it's just a new weapon, needs to be taken into account if it is going to be used.

  • 12.01.2011 4:01 PM PDT

Name's John. I'm a 21-year-old firefighter/EMT from lolhio who doubles as a die-hard Halo fan. I've been enjoying the franchise since 2001. My favorite iteration of Halo would have to be Halo 2 simply because I never got to experience the joy of a full-on Halo: CE LAN.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Oh yeah, and boot Zome.


Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010

Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
That doesn't mean every map has to be designed with jetpacks in mind.


Where did I say every map had to be designed with it in mind?


Posted by: Darkside Eric
The maps are supposed to be designed in mind with all parts of in-game player controlled content and flow that the game is supposed to have.


I did say in-game player controlled content.

If that map does not have the Gravity Hammer, that map should not be designed with the Hammer in mind because on that map, the Hammer is not in-game player controlled content.


But again, just because having a jetpack can be a starting trait, doesn't mean it should be.

Again, I am not saying that you are wrong in saying that map design is the primary problem with jetpacks. In fact, I concede that you are more right than me. All I'm saying is that my stance isn't really wrong either.

  • 12.01.2011 4:02 PM PDT

Name's John. I'm a 21-year-old firefighter/EMT from lolhio who doubles as a die-hard Halo fan. I've been enjoying the franchise since 2001. My favorite iteration of Halo would have to be Halo 2 simply because I never got to experience the joy of a full-on Halo: CE LAN.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Oh yeah, and boot Zome.


Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010

Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
Some of the changes could have been made because they found that the original iteration simply didn't work as well as they thought.


That's exactly my point.

You can't design a map with the strictly the original format if you are planning to add in a new element.

You can't design a Halo map to be exactly like a CE map if you're going to include Hornets and the Chopper.

Likewise you can't design a Halo map to be exactly like a Halo 2 map if you're going to include AAs.


And I'm not arguing that. I'm simply saying that the introduction of AA's like jetpack is what necessitated maps designed to facilitate them. Without its introduction, there would be no need to design maps for it.


But that's a moot point. Because again, because they decided to include the Rocket Launcher in CE, they had to design the maps to work with the Rockets.

Any new mechanic, even if it's just a new weapon, needs to be taken into account if it is going to be used.


And again, who said that jetpacks need to be used on every map? Who said jetpacks need to be in the game at all? It's not classic Halo gameplay. Vehicles and weapons will always be a part of the classic gameplay.

  • 12.01.2011 4:04 PM PDT

☆☆☆Does anyone even read this?☆☆☆

||DeviantArt || File Share||

Posted by: snip3r dud33
Honestly, this is a good cover up for all the idiots who won't know its a cover up .

Uh oh, is Jetpack going to be the new Armor Lock?

  • 12.01.2011 4:05 PM PDT
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Posted by: Horse Repairman
RC RuNz the internet. Like the superintendent.

Posted by: SouthPoIe
Clone is an internet God.

Posted by: DerpRoids
RC Clone is the anti-thesis of a lurker.

Eric won't stop until you completely abandon your starting position in favor of his position. Just look at his response to my page 1 wall.

I said Jetpack sucks because map design, map design, map design. And his response was no Jetpacks are fine only the maps suck. Hardly a difference in position but he was ready to go all out like has been going on you.

[Edited on 12.01.2011 4:08 PM PST]

  • 12.01.2011 4:07 PM PDT


Posted by: Loltastrophe
Your brother is a retard.

  • 12.01.2011 4:08 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Fabled Legendary Member

Your brother is an idiot.

Jetpack adds a new element to the game and it still takes a bit of skill to be good at it. However, the problem is the maps weren't designed properly for jetpacks and so it just ends up breaking the game.

  • 12.01.2011 4:09 PM PDT

Flash Kicks beat Armor Lock.

TheLab.


Posted by: RC Clone
Eric won't stop until you completely abandon your starting position in favor of his position. Just look at his response to my page 1 wall.

I said Jetpack sucks because map design, map design, map design. And his response was no Jetpacks are fine only the maps suck. Hardly a difference in position but he was ready to go all out like has been going on you.


Actually the reason I posed to you as I did was because you did the whole "if a team of 4 jet packers took on a mixed team" thing.

And that was prior to reading your page one post.

  • 12.01.2011 4:10 PM PDT

Flash Kicks beat Armor Lock.

TheLab.


Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
And again, who said that jetpacks need to be used on every map? Who said jetpacks need to be in the game at all? It's not classic Halo gameplay. Vehicles and weapons will always be a part of the classic gameplay.


Who said Dual Wielding should be in the game at all?
Who said melee Power Weapons should be in a FPS game at all?
Who said teleporters should be in Halo CE at all?

Who said X should be in the game at all?

The designers.

You're not using the angle of "it doesn't work because it actually doesn't work," you're just using the "it's not Halo!" approach.

Because I can almost guarantee that even if the game's maps were well balanced and the AAs were well balanced and the game was pretty playable, someone, somewhere would still be like "it's not Halo!" even if the game works well.

  • 12.01.2011 4:13 PM PDT

Name's John. I'm a 21-year-old firefighter/EMT from lolhio who doubles as a die-hard Halo fan. I've been enjoying the franchise since 2001. My favorite iteration of Halo would have to be Halo 2 simply because I never got to experience the joy of a full-on Halo: CE LAN.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Oh yeah, and boot Zome.


Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
And again, who said that jetpacks need to be used on every map? Who said jetpacks need to be in the game at all? It's not classic Halo gameplay. Vehicles and weapons will always be a part of the classic gameplay.


Who said Dual Wielding should be in the game at all?
Who said melee Power Weapons should be in a FPS game at all?
Who said teleporters should be in Halo CE at all?

Who said X should be in the game at all?

The designers.

You're not using the angle of "it doesn't work because it actually doesn't work," you're just using the "it's not Halo!" approach.

Because I can almost guarantee that even if the game's maps were well balanced and the AAs were well balanced and the game was pretty playable, someone, somewhere would still be like "it's not Halo!" even if the game works well.


I never said jetpacks wouldn't work well if not for unsuitable map design, so of course I'm not going to say it doesn't work because it actually doesn't work. Very clearly it works. It's the maps that don't work with it.

I'm simply saying that in the context of Reach's map design choices, it would have been better if jetpacks had never been introduced at all, rather than trying to change a more classic map design style in lieu of one that supports jetpacks. I have a feeling that, given the maps' designs even without jetpacks, any jetpack-catered designs would have been horribly forced and broken as well.

My point is, this game would have been fine without jetpacks. They designed everything else in the game as if jetpacks weren't a factor, which leads me to my stance. Again, jetpacks just simply should not have been introduced.

  • 12.01.2011 4:21 PM PDT

Flash Kicks beat Armor Lock.

TheLab.


Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
Again, jetpacks just simply should not have been introduced.


Then what's the point of making new games or designing in general?

That's my bottom line point:

"It would have been easier to just design the game without Jet Packs."

So, because it would simply be easier, you don't want to design a new mechanic which then, in turn, would mean you would need to redesign some previous aspects of the game.

Basically, it's now a case of "I don't want to make it work, I just want it to be easy."

  • 12.01.2011 4:31 PM PDT
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Posted by: Horse Repairman
RC RuNz the internet. Like the superintendent.

Posted by: SouthPoIe
Clone is an internet God.

Posted by: DerpRoids
RC Clone is the anti-thesis of a lurker.

@Eric

In this case yes. They started designing the maps first and then added the Jetpack. They obviously didn't see the ramifications of its addition and should have left it out. Had Jetpack been left out we wouldn't be having large discussions about how much Jetpacks would have added to gameplay and we would, even if only slightly, more satisfied with the final product.

  • 12.01.2011 4:36 PM PDT

Name's John. I'm a 21-year-old firefighter/EMT from lolhio who doubles as a die-hard Halo fan. I've been enjoying the franchise since 2001. My favorite iteration of Halo would have to be Halo 2 simply because I never got to experience the joy of a full-on Halo: CE LAN.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Oh yeah, and boot Zome.


Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
Again, jetpacks just simply should not have been introduced.


Then what's the point of making new games or designing in general?

That's my bottom line point:

"It would have been easier to just design the game without Jet Packs."

So, because it would simply be easier, you don't want to design a new mechanic which then, in turn, would mean you would need to redesign some previous aspects of the game.

Basically, it's now a case of "I don't want to make it work, I just want it to be easy."


No, it's a case of "based on how they designed the maps with clearly little to no regard to jetpacks, they should have just been left out jetpacks wholesale rather than leaving an element in that doesn't mesh well with their other design choices".

There are plenty of other new elements in Reach without jetpacks. Their map design choices make me think that jetpacks were an afterthought. If they weren't going to design at least some maps with jetpacks in mind, they shouldn't have added jetpacks at all. At least, they shouldn't have made them available outside of custom games, because as they are now they are simply gimmicks rather than a fully-integrated gameplay element.

  • 12.01.2011 4:37 PM PDT
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Posted by: Horse Repairman
RC RuNz the internet. Like the superintendent.

Posted by: SouthPoIe
Clone is an internet God.

Posted by: DerpRoids
RC Clone is the anti-thesis of a lurker.

@Ruckus

The only visible design choice was raising the invisible and visible ceiling.

  • 12.01.2011 4:40 PM PDT

Flash Kicks beat Armor Lock.

TheLab.


Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
There are plenty of other new elements in Reach without jetpacks. Their map design choices make me think that jetpacks were an afterthought. If they weren't going to design at least some maps with jetpacks in mind, they shouldn't have added jetpacks at all. At least, they shouldn't have made them available outside of custom games, because as they are now they are simply gimmicks rather than a fully-integrated gameplay element.


If the above is true...

Part of me believes that Bungie should stop making games... or actually were just so done with Halo that they didn't care anymore.

As a game production student with a focus on game design (mechanics, levels, etc), I would never include a mechanic without balancing it out as best I could with the other mechanics, especially if the new mechanic I designed was a last minute thing.

  • 12.01.2011 4:41 PM PDT

Flash Kicks beat Armor Lock.

TheLab.


Posted by: RC Clone
@Eric

In this case yes. They started designing the maps first and then added the Jetpack.


That's just plain -blam!- stupid.

  • 12.01.2011 4:42 PM PDT

Name's John. I'm a 21-year-old firefighter/EMT from lolhio who doubles as a die-hard Halo fan. I've been enjoying the franchise since 2001. My favorite iteration of Halo would have to be Halo 2 simply because I never got to experience the joy of a full-on Halo: CE LAN.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Oh yeah, and boot Zome.


Posted by: RC Clone
@Ruckus

The only visible design choice was raising the invisible and visible ceiling.


What I really don't understand about jetpacks in this game pertains to Firefight. Areas where you should be able to jetpack to (well within the map's limits) have a soft-kill barrier.

What, were they trying to be fair to the AI?

I miss the days where the map's boundaries were defined by the map itself, or invisible barriers. These kill boundaries (especially soft-kill) are just dumb for dictating where you can or cannot go. Soft-kill boundaries are the major factor behind jetpack's abuse.

[Edited on 12.01.2011 4:49 PM PST]

  • 12.01.2011 4:44 PM PDT

Name's John. I'm a 21-year-old firefighter/EMT from lolhio who doubles as a die-hard Halo fan. I've been enjoying the franchise since 2001. My favorite iteration of Halo would have to be Halo 2 simply because I never got to experience the joy of a full-on Halo: CE LAN.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Oh yeah, and boot Zome.


Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
There are plenty of other new elements in Reach without jetpacks. Their map design choices make me think that jetpacks were an afterthought. If they weren't going to design at least some maps with jetpacks in mind, they shouldn't have added jetpacks at all. At least, they shouldn't have made them available outside of custom games, because as they are now they are simply gimmicks rather than a fully-integrated gameplay element.


If the above is true...

Part of me believes that Bungie should stop making games... or actually were just so done with Halo that they didn't care anymore.

As a game production student with a focus on game design (mechanics, levels, etc), I would never include a mechanic without balancing it out as best I could with the other mechanics, especially if the new mechanic I designed was a last minute thing.


But this would make sense if this were the case, right? Because, to me, the way the jetpack is placed in this game makes me think that it was more akin to a last-minute decision. And with some of Bungie's other choices, would it really surprise you if this were the case? I sure wouldn't be.

The map design vs jetpack implementation certainly attests to this possibility.



[Edited on 12.01.2011 4:53 PM PST]

  • 12.01.2011 4:48 PM PDT
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Posted by: Horse Repairman
RC RuNz the internet. Like the superintendent.

Posted by: SouthPoIe
Clone is an internet God.

Posted by: DerpRoids
RC Clone is the anti-thesis of a lurker.


Posted by: The Ruckus 2010

Posted by: RC Clone
@Ruckus

The only visible design choice was raising the invisible and visible ceiling.


What I really don't understand about jetpacks in this game pertains to Firefight. Areas where you should be able to jetpack to (well within the map's limits) have a soft-kill barrier.

What, were they trying to be fair to the AI?

I miss the days where the maps boundaries were defined by the map itself, or invisible barriers. These kill boundaries (especially soft-kill) are just dumb for dictating where you can or cannot go. Soft-kill boundaries are the major factor behind jetpack's abuse.

The AI get a coded path to follow so that they can find you whereever you are. Those kill zoned areas are places where they didn't want to take the time to get the pathing to understand that the spots near and under those structures are where the AI should go.

On a side note. This pathing system makes camp loadouts completely useless because the AI will come straight to your position and stare at you until you make the slightest movement. At which point they unload their ammo into you. It makes me wonder why there is still Camo in score attack.

[Edited on 12.01.2011 4:52 PM PST]

  • 12.01.2011 4:49 PM PDT

Tell your brother I said to shut up

  • 12.01.2011 4:49 PM PDT

Name's John. I'm a 21-year-old firefighter/EMT from lolhio who doubles as a die-hard Halo fan. I've been enjoying the franchise since 2001. My favorite iteration of Halo would have to be Halo 2 simply because I never got to experience the joy of a full-on Halo: CE LAN.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Oh yeah, and boot Zome.


Posted by: RC Clone

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010

Posted by: RC Clone
@Ruckus

The only visible design choice was raising the invisible and visible ceiling.


What I really don't understand about jetpacks in this game pertains to Firefight. Areas where you should be able to jetpack to (well within the map's limits) have a soft-kill barrier.

What, were they trying to be fair to the AI?

I miss the days where the maps boundaries were defined by the map itself, or invisible barriers. These kill boundaries (especially soft-kill) are just dumb for dictating where you can or cannot go. Soft-kill boundaries are the major factor behind jetpack's abuse.

The AI get a coded path to follow so that they can find you whereever you are. Those kill zoned areas are places where they didn't want to take the time to get the pathing to understand that the spots near and under those structures are where the AI should go.


So it was Bungie being lazy and yet again not catering to their own gameplay choices.

Why am I not surprised?

  • 12.01.2011 4:50 PM PDT

Flash Kicks beat Armor Lock.

TheLab.


Posted by: The Ruckus 2010

Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010
There are plenty of other new elements in Reach without jetpacks. Their map design choices make me think that jetpacks were an afterthought. If they weren't going to design at least some maps with jetpacks in mind, they shouldn't have added jetpacks at all. At least, they shouldn't have made them available outside of custom games, because as they are now they are simply gimmicks rather than a fully-integrated gameplay element.


If the above is true...

Part of me believes that Bungie should stop making games... or actually were just so done with Halo that they didn't care anymore.

As a game production student with a focus on game design (mechanics, levels, etc), I would never include a mechanic without balancing it out as best I could with the other mechanics, especially if the new mechanic I designed was a last minute thing.


But this would make sense if this were the case, right? Because, to me, the way the jetpack is placed in this game makes me think that it was more akin to a last-minute decision. And with some of Bungie's other choices, would it really surprise you if this were the case? I sure wouldn't be.

The map design vs jetpack implementation certainly attest to this possibility.



If Armor Abilities were a last minute decision then other things should have been re~balanced, period.

  • 12.01.2011 4:52 PM PDT
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Posted by: Horse Repairman
RC RuNz the internet. Like the superintendent.

Posted by: SouthPoIe
Clone is an internet God.

Posted by: DerpRoids
RC Clone is the anti-thesis of a lurker.


Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: RC Clone
@Eric

In this case yes. They started designing the maps first and then added the Jetpack.


That's just plain -blam!- stupid.

And the only alternative is that they added it while maps were still being designed and just ignored the problem. Other than the high cielings.

  • 12.01.2011 4:54 PM PDT

Name's John. I'm a 21-year-old firefighter/EMT from lolhio who doubles as a die-hard Halo fan. I've been enjoying the franchise since 2001. My favorite iteration of Halo would have to be Halo 2 simply because I never got to experience the joy of a full-on Halo: CE LAN.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Oh yeah, and boot Zome.


Posted by: Darkside Eric

Posted by: The Ruckus 2010

Posted by: Darkside Eric

If the above is true...

Part of me believes that Bungie should stop making games... or actually were just so done with Halo that they didn't care anymore.

As a game production student with a focus on game design (mechanics, levels, etc), I would never include a mechanic without balancing it out as best I could with the other mechanics, especially if the new mechanic I designed was a last minute thing.


But this would make sense if this were the case, right? Because, to me, the way the jetpack is placed in this game makes me think that it was more akin to a last-minute decision. And with some of Bungie's other choices, would it really surprise you if this were the case? I sure wouldn't be.

The map design vs jetpack implementation certainly attest to this possibility.



If Armor Abilities were a last minute decision then other things should have been re~balanced, period.


Agreed. Unfortunately, Bungie does not seem to have understood this. Otherwise we'd have maps that actually work well with jetpacks.

[Edited on 12.01.2011 4:55 PM PST]

  • 12.01.2011 4:54 PM PDT

Flash Kicks beat Armor Lock.

TheLab.


Posted by: The Ruckus 2010

Agreed. Unfortunately, Bungie does not seem to have understood this. Otherwise we'd have maps that actually work well with jetpacks.


I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and saying they simply just did not care about Reach and Halo anymore. The franchise, their baby, yes they cared about it. But they didn't want to make games for the series anymore but were still contractually obligated.

I know how that feels. Simply not wanting to work on a project anymore because you've done it for so long.

  • 12.01.2011 5:00 PM PDT