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This topic has moved here: Subject: Akamia's Hypothoses: Bloom - Then and Now
  • Subject: Akamia's Hypothoses: Bloom - Then and Now
Subject: Akamia's Hypothoses: Bloom - Then and Now

"The truth is the key, and with it, I will unlock the doors of darkness and find justice."
-Me

"Why is it that lately, all I want to do is cry?"
-Phoenix Wright

Okay, I have written this thread as a means to discuss bloom in Halo's past, and bloom as it had appeared in Halo Reach. No, not talking about precision weapons' bloom, which did not exist anywhere except the CE pistol (in theory, at least). I'm talking about bloom on automatics, such as the Reach AR, the Halo 3 AR, the CE AR, the SMG, etc.

For the sake of clarity, I will use these terms throughout the thread, and I will define the terms as I know them here and now, just so there is no confusion:

Bloom: The ability to control the accuracy of a shot, or a volley of shots.

Bullet Spread: Bullets randomly going about the reticule. Can be a subset of Bloom.

Reticule Bloom: A visualization of Bloom.

Recoil: The moving of a gun after, or as it fires.

Now, let us begin.

A theory among some of us is that Bloom was in automatic weapons in Halo before Halo Reach even gave them Reticule Bloom. I found an opportunity to look into this yesterday, and took it upon myself to test Halo 3's SMG for Bloom. The result?

The Bloom did not exist with the SMG. It was full-on Bullet Spread.

I fired in 2-shot bursts (the rate of fire was too quick for me to manage a single shot) and then full auto after a reload. There was no change in accuracy.

Not that I am implying that the SMG was ever accurate to begin with, don't get me wrong. But after this find, I begin to further question this theory of Bloom in previous Halo titles.

What do you all make of this? Have you anything to bring to the table?

  • 12.08.2011 3:02 AM PDT

as you said, the SMG was not meant to be accurate to begin with, also, there is no SMG in reach... so i don't know why you would use that as your basis for comparison.

however, if you disregard precision weapons (bad move to begin with but whatever) you'll find that bloom is just another way of managing the full auto vs semi auto balance, if the AR was as accurate as the BR was than it would see a lot more use (as in, it would be way too powerful), so you can either have a set bullet spread or a bloom mechanic, the difference is that a bloom mechanic allows for more initial accuracy and chance to manage the spread, thus introducing the idea of skill into the weapon (in theory) and allowing for more skilled players to use it much more effectively at mid range.

now if we factor ranged weapons (which we really do need to do) you'll find that again, it is an attempt to introduce skill into the weapon, the DMR is supposed to have higher point damage and slower fire rate to compensate, the problem is that you don't want it to be too slow or people will feel crippled at closer ranges where accuracy doesn't matter as much (you know, around mid range) so they don't want it to surpass the sniper rifle at extreme range and they don't want it to be unwieldy at mid range, yet they still want it to be a precision weapon, bloom allows this as it limits your fire rate/accuracy at range while still being great for mid range fights.

although in the end bloom is just an alternative to a static bullet spread, in which the idea (in theory) is to add a larger skill factor and better balance (again, in theory, how well these actually translate into the game are debatable)

personally, i think the reason everybody hates bloom so much is that it changed the dynamic of the gun combat, not because the system in itself is flawed, people just don't like the change, and in all honesty it's the sort of change i would have expected from 343s' halo 4, not bungies final installment because of this community backlash, people expected a straight up halo game made by bungie to be the final classic halo, what they got was an attempt at innovation/improvement in a new direction, again, the sort of thing you would expect to see from a dev change.

although i couldn't care less whether a game uses dynamic bloom or static spread, I've played enough shadow run in my time to be well adjusted to both.

P.S. did we really need another "Bloom opinion thread"

[Edited on 12.08.2011 3:49 AM PST]

  • 12.08.2011 3:48 AM PDT
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H: CE - Amazing.
Halo 2 - Revolutionary.
Halo 3 - Decent.
Halo Reach- An epic fail of monumental proportions.
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kinda late and a story nobody still cares about

  • 12.08.2011 3:52 AM PDT

"The truth is the key, and with it, I will unlock the doors of darkness and find justice."
-Me

"Why is it that lately, all I want to do is cry?"
-Phoenix Wright


Posted by: Zoridium JackL
as you said, the SMG was not meant to be accurate to begin with, also, there is no SMG in reach... so i don't know why you would use that as your basis for comparison.

however, if you disregard precision weapons (bad move to begin with but whatever) you'll find that bloom is just another way of managing the full auto vs semi auto balance, if the AR was as accurate as the BR was than it would see a lot more use (as in, it would be way too powerful), so you can either have a set bullet spread or a bloom mechanic, the difference is that a bloom mechanic allows for more initial accuracy and chance to manage the spread, thus introducing the idea of skill into the weapon (in theory) and allowing for more skilled players to use it much more effectively at mid range.

now if we factor ranged weapons (which we really do need to do) you'll find that again, it is an attempt to introduce skill into the weapon, the DMR is supposed to have higher point damage and slower fire rate to compensate, the problem is that you don't want it to be too slow or people will feel crippled at closer ranges where accuracy doesn't matter as much (you know, around mid range) so they don't want it to surpass the sniper rifle at extreme range and they don't want it to be unwieldy at mid range, yet they still want it to be a precision weapon, bloom allows this as it limits your fire rate/accuracy at range while still being great for mid range fights.

although in the end bloom is just an alternative to a static bullet spread, in which the idea (in theory) is to add a larger skill factor and better balance (again, in theory, how well these actually translate into the game are debatable)

personally, i think the reason everybody hates bloom so much is that it changed the dynamic of the gun combat, not because the system in itself is flawed, people just don't like the change, and in all honesty it's the sort of change i would have expected from 343s' halo 4, not bungies final installment because of this community backlash, people expected a straight up halo game made by bungie to be the final classic halo, what they got was an attempt at innovation/improvement in a new direction, again, the sort of thing you would expect to see from a dev change.

although i couldn't care less whether a game uses dynamic bloom or static spread, I've played enough shadow run in my time to be well adjusted to both.

P.S. did we really need another "Bloom opinion thread"

I was simply investigating Bloom in older games, simply because wild theories about it being in past Halo games simply bug me if there hasn't been any evidence introduced to me.

I intentionally left out the Precision part of the arsenal simply because I investigated it already with the Halo 3 Carbine, which is as close as it gets to a DMR in Halo 3, with both being single-shot Precision Weapons. I made a critical error that day, and found the truth through said error, when I decided to go over my evidence again.

This is not an opinion thread, by the way. This is for objective facts about the "Bloom in the past" theroies. I want to find the truth about Bloom and how it really showed up in the past Halo games. You know, like some people think.

This particular thread covers automatics specifically, another target of these theories. I may cover another piece of the arsenal at a later date, but we're dealing with autos here. Like the SMG.

P.S. I used the SMG because it was handy. I lost my Assault Rifle, because I didn't conduct these tests until after a little firefight with my little brother. Naturally, given my super not-winning skills, I was losing. So I thought of an opportunity to test autos for Bloom.

[Edited on 12.08.2011 4:00 AM PST]

  • 12.08.2011 3:56 AM PDT

"The truth is the key, and with it, I will unlock the doors of darkness and find justice."
-Me

"Why is it that lately, all I want to do is cry?"
-Phoenix Wright


Posted by: zuboy
kinda late and a story nobody still cares about

Why did you bother telling me this, then?

Anyway, I expected as much. I simply want to find out the truth, and this comes from discussing it with those who do care.

  • 12.08.2011 3:58 AM PDT

if it's about bloom in past games than I'm pretty sure anyone claiming it was in past games is just confusing dynamic bloom with static spread (probably because people forget to factor in recoil, which in some games produces a very similar effect to bloom)

  • 12.08.2011 4:06 AM PDT

"The truth is the key, and with it, I will unlock the doors of darkness and find justice."
-Me

"Why is it that lately, all I want to do is cry?"
-Phoenix Wright


Posted by: Zoridium JackL
if it's about bloom in past games than I'm pretty sure anyone claiming it was in past games is just confusing dynamic bloom with static spread (probably because people forget to factor in recoil, which in some games produces a very similar effect to bloom)

Yes, that is possible. I will have to conduct more tests to be 100% sure.

I've been trying to look into getting data from Halo 2's weapons, but due to the fact that I lack the ability to buy it at this time, let alone play it, I cannot experiment with it. So I've hit a brick wall, as far as that goes.

  • 12.08.2011 4:12 AM PDT


Posted by: Akamia179
Yes, that is possible. I will have to conduct more tests to be 100% sure.


^nerd^

  • 12.08.2011 6:23 AM PDT

-Teraz Twoka kolej "Life is like a double-edged sword, you are one [side] of them"


sh­eithings, lolol
also, fu­srodahsucks

Question: Why does the Sniper Rifle have bloom when its relatively low rate of fire makes it so that by the time you're ready to fire again, the bloom is nonexistent?

  • 12.08.2011 6:27 AM PDT

"The truth is the key, and with it, I will unlock the doors of darkness and find justice."
-Me

"Why is it that lately, all I want to do is cry?"
-Phoenix Wright


Posted by: Occupy Bungie

Posted by: Akamia179
Yes, that is possible. I will have to conduct more tests to be 100% sure.


^nerd^

Thank you. I try.

  • 12.08.2011 4:56 PM PDT

"The truth is the key, and with it, I will unlock the doors of darkness and find justice."
-Me

"Why is it that lately, all I want to do is cry?"
-Phoenix Wright


Posted by: Majatek
Question: Why does the Sniper Rifle have bloom when its relatively low rate of fire makes it so that by the time you're ready to fire again, the bloom is nonexistent?

That was probably to make the reticule look cool. I don't know what Bungie was thinking when they did that.

  • 12.08.2011 4:56 PM PDT