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This topic has moved here: Subject: Reigniting the Halo Reach Glassing Canon Debate
  • Subject: Reigniting the Halo Reach Glassing Canon Debate
Subject: Reigniting the Halo Reach Glassing Canon Debate
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This discussion is primarily on the glassing of Reach.

I understand that there are canon issues with the game "Halo:Reach", and people are sensitive about them, but please keep the discussion mature and open to all arguments. Thank You.


This is my opinion, which I feel had stumbled upon a major Halo Canon issue, not just for Reach, but for the TFoR as well.

The Fall of Reach.

TFoR is an old book, written before the Halo Story Bible was finalized. Even if you discount the ONI data drops, and Halsey's Journal, lets look at one key canon issue, which basically invalidates the TFoR's story, which if according to the skeptics is correct, destroys a basic Halo canon rule.

The TFoR original transcript (2001, I believe) indicates that Reach was glassed in 7 hours, or a single day or a few days, definitely not as long as Reach's story, by a 700 strong Covenant fleet.

Okay, lets back track: 700 ships, 1 day, glassed Reach. (Even if I am wrong about the numbers here the argument still stands)

Any basic Halo canon expert would know that this is impossible, the Covenant cannot glass a planet so easily, especially a planet the size of Reach.

According to the Assembly, it takes a regular Covenant Cruiser 15 seconds to glass an acre of land. This can be increased by the nature of the land/ocean, deep ocean will take much longer.

Okay, so assuming the UNSC Reach fleet fell in 0.1 seconds, the Covenant with all 700 ships start glassing Reach.

700 acres in 15 seconds gone, lets say 140 every 3 seconds, or unevenly round it up to 141/3, or 47 acres per second.

Earth is comprised of 135 billion acres. Reach is larger than Earth. There is no way in hell that the fleet could have glassed Reach so quickly. It is also very unlikely that the Covenant would blindly throw ships, without sending so advance teams.

Well, that's it. Play what want. Like what you want. But don't jump the bandwagon so easily.

Halo: Reach's story, of an advance attack followed by a main glassing for 2 weeks is a much more believable story.

TLDR: The Covenant could not have glassed Reach so quickly in the TFoR, Halo:Reach's story is more believable.


[Edited on 12.11.2011 4:46 PM PST]

  • 12.11.2011 4:37 PM PDT
Subject: Reigniting the Halo Reach Canon Debate (TFoR)
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

I implore you to change the title to something about the misinformation about "glassing". I will NOT allow another large reach debate.

  • 12.11.2011 4:40 PM PDT

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The Assembly are essentially wrong. There's a post detailing how with numbers to back it but because it isn't mine I'm not going to take the credit for it. I'll post it when I get permission first. I'll be back.

  • 12.11.2011 4:42 PM PDT
Subject: Reigniting the Halo Reach Glassing Canon Debate
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Posted by: switch 104 sv
The Assembly are essentially wrong. There's a post detailing how with numbers to back it but because it isn't mine I'm not going to take the credit for it. I'll post it when I get permission first. I'll be back.

We shall see. But one thing, the numbers don't change anything.

I remember reading somewhere(probably Halopedian) that according to the planet's size and the size of the fleet, it would take a number of hours to days to weeks to even months to glass a planet. The fleet was small (after the battle) according to the latest version of the tFoR, and the planet was very large, larger than Earth.

[Edited on 12.11.2011 4:51 PM PST]

  • 12.11.2011 4:49 PM PDT

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Firstly, Halopedian is not infallible, quite the opposite in my opinion. Secondly numbers do change things. Canon facts are just that; facts. Like I said I'll post when I can.

  • 12.11.2011 4:54 PM PDT

Unless the re-released book changes it, they actually say Reach was not 'fully glassed'. Portions yes, but never the entire thing.

  • 12.11.2011 4:54 PM PDT
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Posted by: switch 104 sv
Firstly, Halopedian is not infallible, quite the opposite in my opinion. Secondly numbers do change things. Canon facts are just that; facts. Like I said I'll post when I can.

Do so. But it took Harvest a few days to be glassed, and Harvest is small (to my knowledge). 7 hours to glass Reach seems a little bit too quick.

  • 12.11.2011 4:55 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Unless the re-released book changes it, they actually say Reach was not 'fully glassed'. Portions yes, but never the entire thing.

To my knowledge they glassed everything except Menachite Mountain.

  • 12.11.2011 4:56 PM PDT

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Yeah I think it was something like 90% and they only left that part because of the crystal and what not.

  • 12.11.2011 5:04 PM PDT
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Posted by: switch 104 sv
Yeah I think it was something like 90% and they only left that part because of the crystal and what not.

Basically. So do you agree that Reach cannot be glassed in a day, let alone 7 hours? Even if the Assembly is wrong about the glassing numbers, which seem to be supported by Halo 3 ODST's account of Covenant ships glassing New Mombasa, and the Covenant can glass ten acres per second per ship, that is only 864000 acres per day per ship, nowhere near as the 135 billion acres which comprise of Earth's surface area, which is smaller than Reach.

  • 12.11.2011 5:08 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: switch 104 sv
Yeah I think it was something like 90% and they only left that part because of the crystal and what not.


Actually no; Fred said the poles were glassed and the entire planet turned into a large wildfire.

  • 12.11.2011 5:12 PM PDT

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Posted by: grey101

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Yeah I think it was something like 90% and they only left that part because of the crystal and what not.


Actually no; Fred said the poles were glassed and the entire planet turned into a large wildfire.

Interesting.

Now I don't know what to believe :P

  • 12.11.2011 5:15 PM PDT
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To my knowledge the poles weren't the only parts that were glassed, someone stated that the "places they grew up with" or something like that, suggesting their training grounds were glassed too.

  • 12.11.2011 5:20 PM PDT
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Posted by: grey101

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Yeah I think it was something like 90% and they only left that part because of the crystal and what not.


Actually no; Fred said the poles were glassed and the entire planet turned into a large wildfire.


This.

Also, the Covenant "glassing" isn't really turning the surface to a molton state(Though it was described that way in propoganda). What they DO do is simply raze over large portions of land and burning it, rather than melting it. Doing this, aswell as spending special time to work on boiling away a lot of the hydrosphere, causes the planet to become quite uninhabitable, to the point were the UNSC needs to spend 30 years of terraforming to get it back into a good enough shape(Datapad 14 I believe).

  • 12.11.2011 5:21 PM PDT

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Ok, credit goes to Fin for this one.


This is based on a post I made on another site, the discussion was sidetracked on Covenant glassing capability, and the AI's numbers from the datapads were referenced (A Covenant warship is only capable of glassing 1 acre in fifteen seconds).

It occured to me that even the very limited tactical use of 'glassing' by the CCS-class ships in New Alexandria was more impressive than this.

(The pictures are not mine)

We are discussing this event here:
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDeta...px?fid=13031105 (firing)

The size of the ship is known, it's about 860m wide at it's widest point.

As you can see from the image the area being zapped is actually wider than the ship. Lets call it the same width though just to be conservative. (Why? because it makes it easy, that's why.)

We also know that the description of a "glassed" area is that the surface is melted, or rendered glassy smooth and glowing, (the level of damage done is presumed to be directly related to how close it is to the centre of the strike).

After the blast, we see the surface in the area around and under the ship is brightly glowing, and there is a bright yellow lava-like texture present on the ground: (apologies for the pictures, I'm not able to get any of my own for at least two weeks as my xbox is on the blink, these were the best I could find in a few minutes of searching.)

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDeta...px?fid=23455414 (molten surface)

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDeta...px?fid=11736549 (wider view of molten 'glassed' area, complete with 2D buildings...)

Both of these images are consistent with the discription of a 'glassed' area, as well as with images of a limited 'glassing' in Halo 3 (floodgate). I feel it is reasonable to maintain my position that most of the surface underneath the ship (and in an area round about) was heated to a molten state, and would therefore qualify for the "glassed" description.

The closing cutscene (after Kat's death) also has a shot of the aftermath, it clearly shows a considerable amount of material has melted and flowed around the foundations of some of the wrecked towers.



In conclusion: The event depicted in New Alexandria could certainly qualify as a glassing of a localised area, it meets the previous descriptions supplied (the surface heated to melting, the surrounding area rendered glassy smooth and glowing) and can readily be observed in-game.

The time taken for the CCS-class to fire is easily determined by simply counting, it's around 8 seconds.

The area depicted as 'glassed' in this example is considerably larger than the CCS-class that fires the beam, which has a footprint larger than 1 acre. Considerably larger, as in over 100 times larger.


Given that these three observations can easily be made by flying over and having a look in-game (you must first disable the death-barriers by activating the switch on the tower next to the Viacom building, if you wish to do this look for videos showing you how to fly a pelican/phantom on this level, it's the first step.) I think that it is sufficient evidence to cast doubt on the calculations made by the AI's in the datapads.

According to the AI numbers, it should have taken over 25 minutes of sustained firing to achieve this effect.

Quite simply, if the AI's are correct, this event could not have happened as it is depicted in game.

And neither could any of the other glassing events in the entirety of Halo canon (That is to say all the references to it going back to the HALO: Combat Evolved promotional material).

Given that we see this event take place, and we also know of others that exceed the AI's prediction of Covenant capability, then it seems dubious at best to take the AI's second-hand calculations over all other events. They are characters in-game, it's quite possible they are mistaken, or being misled.

  • 12.11.2011 5:22 PM PDT
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Posted by: switch 104 sv
Ok, credit goes to Fin for this one.


This is based on a post I made on another site, the discussion was sidetracked on Covenant glassing capability, and the AI's numbers from the datapads were referenced (A Covenant warship is only capable of glassing 1 acre in fifteen seconds).

It occured to me that even the very limited tactical use of 'glassing' by the CCS-class ships in New Alexandria was more impressive than this.

(The pictures are not mine)

We are discussing this event here:
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDeta...px?fid=13031105 (firing)

The size of the ship is known, it's about 860m wide at it's widest point.

As you can see from the image the area being zapped is actually wider than the ship. Lets call it the same width though just to be conservative. (Why? because it makes it easy, that's why.)

We also know that the description of a "glassed" area is that the surface is melted, or rendered glassy smooth and glowing, (the level of damage done is presumed to be directly related to how close it is to the centre of the strike).

After the blast, we see the surface in the area around and under the ship is brightly glowing, and there is a bright yellow lava-like texture present on the ground: (apologies for the pictures, I'm not able to get any of my own for at least two weeks as my xbox is on the blink, these were the best I could find in a few minutes of searching.)

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDeta...px?fid=23455414 (molten surface)

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDeta...px?fid=11736549 (wider view of molten 'glassed' area, complete with 2D buildings...)

Both of these images are consistent with the discription of a 'glassed' area, as well as with images of a limited 'glassing' in Halo 3 (floodgate). I feel it is reasonable to maintain my position that most of the surface underneath the ship (and in an area round about) was heated to a molten state, and would therefore qualify for the "glassed" description.

The closing cutscene (after Kat's death) also has a shot of the aftermath, it clearly shows a considerable amount of material has melted and flowed around the foundations of some of the wrecked towers.



In conclusion: The event depicted in New Alexandria could certainly qualify as a glassing of a localised area, it meets the previous descriptions supplied (the surface heated to melting, the surrounding area rendered glassy smooth and glowing) and can readily be observed in-game.

The time taken for the CCS-class to fire is easily determined by simply counting, it's around 8 seconds.

The area depicted as 'glassed' in this example is considerably larger than the CCS-class that fires the beam, which has a footprint larger than 1 acre. Considerably larger, as in over 100 times larger.


Given that these three observations can easily be made by flying over and having a look in-game (you must first disable the death-barriers by activating the switch on the tower next to the Viacom building, if you wish to do this look for videos showing you how to fly a pelican/phantom on this level, it's the first step.) I think that it is sufficient evidence to cast doubt on the calculations made by the AI's in the datapads.

According to the AI numbers, it should have taken over 25 minutes of sustained firing to achieve this effect.

Quite simply, if the AI's are correct, this event could not have happened as it is depicted in game.

And neither could any of the other glassing events in the entirety of Halo canon (That is to say all the references to it going back to the HALO: Combat Evolved promotional material).

Given that we see this event take place, and we also know of others that exceed the AI's prediction of Covenant capability, then it seems dubious at best to take the AI's second-hand calculations over all other events. They are characters in-game, it's quite possible they are mistaken, or being misled.


Good Post. But still, the time frame doesn't fit. Even if it is 100 acres, or a thousand acres, it still took a few seconds to minutes for the cruiser to get into position to fire, say a 1000 acre area. That is 700,000 acres every few minutes, still a very far off the 135 billion acre limit. Getting into position to glass or set alight takes time, too.

  • 12.11.2011 5:32 PM PDT
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135 Billion in 7 hours is:
19.2 billion per hour
321 million per minute
5.37 million per second

That last post gives the following(Based on, let's say, 500 acres every 8 seconds, and with 700 ships):
43.8 thousand per second
2.63 million per minute
158 million per hour
3.78 billion per day
26.5 billion per week
106 billion per month

So based on that, a full glassing should take somewhere around 1 month, 1 week, and 1 day

  • 12.11.2011 5:49 PM PDT

Didact's Reprisal -
Now is the time of our unworlding
One final effort is all that remains
And I am not afraid
We shall fulfill our promise
We fight for the grace of the Mantle
And this time none of you will be left behind

You know what would actually help folks who are vying for the most accurate Halo canon? Actual book citations.

Try it.

  • 12.11.2011 5:52 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

The Covenant still "glass" a planet. What has changed is the definition. It used to be boiling off all of the oceans, lakes and rivers, blowing off the atmosphere and reducing every square kilometre of the planet to a molten state before allowing it to cool into a glassy substance. (Lechatelierite I think it is called)

Really, that is a bit preposterous. It is now more pragmetic if anything. They blast cities and military bases off of the face of the map and they target vital regions of the planet and reduce it to a state of being unsuitable for large scale colonisation without terraforming. They probably do things like melt polar ice caps (Which would screw up salt water oceanic thermal currents), set off massive global forest fires (With enough fires the smoke could cause climate change, wipe out the ecosystem), destroying pastures, etc

The ultimate question I think is the fact that the assembly had already witnessed the glassing of Harvest and Biko by the time they had made their report, and that over the years they had the capability to witness all of the glassings of the war but yet never once did they change or update their original claims like they did for a later data pad.

  • 12.11.2011 6:02 PM PDT
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Posted by: anton1792
The Covenant still "glass" a planet. What has changed is the definition. It used to be boiling off all of the oceans, lakes and rivers, blowing off the atmosphere and reducing every square kilometre of the planet to a molten state before allowing it to cool into a glassy substance. (Lechatelierite I think it is called)

Really, that is a bit preposterous. It is now more pragmetic if anything. They blast cities and military bases off of the face of the map and they target vital regions of the planet and reduce it to a state of being unsuitable for large scale colonisation without terraforming. They probably do things like melt polar ice caps (Which would screw up salt water oceanic thermal currents), set off massive global forest fires (With enough fires the smoke could cause climate change, wipe out the ecosystem), destroying pastures, etc

The ultimate question I think is the fact that the assembly had already witnessed the glassing of Harvest and Biko by the time they had made their report, and that over the years they had the capability to witness all of the glassings of the war but yet never once did they change or update their original claims like they did for a later data pad.


This. This. This. This.

  • 12.11.2011 6:04 PM PDT