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This topic has moved here: Subject: Catherine Elizabeth Halsey: Punish or Release?
  • Subject: Catherine Elizabeth Halsey: Punish or Release?
Subject: Catherine Elizabeth Halsey: Punish or Release?
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: wcd45

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: wcd45


Anyway this is getting off topic - I think Halsey should be forced to work on forerunner tech until she's too old to be useful then shot.

P.S. it has been nice to have a genuine discussion, been a while since I had one of these on B.net.


This isn't getting off topic you just aren't getting the answers you want. And Halsey has no reason to be shot or imprisoned.

I meant talking about babies and cancer and not what should happen to Halsey. Did you read the second half of my post?


Analogy's aren't off topic.

  • 12.15.2011 3:56 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Wolverfrog
The UNSC was practically totalitarian before the Covenant war. Its toppling wouldn't have been such a terrible thing were it not for the immense collateral damage that would come with it. Spartans were designed to enforce fascism.


Just curious, where is this ever stated/hinted at?

Cause in all the halo lore I've gone through, I've never gotten this "UNSC was fascist" theme.


Fascist was a strong word to use, but hyperbole always gets attention. But all the insurrectionists basically wanted was independence. The UNSC did some terrible things to keep their grip on their colonies.

Just look at Bandersnatch on Far Isle.

  • 12.15.2011 3:58 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: Wolverfrog

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Wolverfrog
The UNSC was practically totalitarian before the Covenant war. Its toppling wouldn't have been such a terrible thing were it not for the immense collateral damage that would come with it. Spartans were designed to enforce fascism.


Just curious, where is this ever stated/hinted at?

Cause in all the halo lore I've gone through, I've never gotten this "UNSC was fascist" theme.


Fascist was a strong word to use, but hyperbole always gets attention. But all the insurrectionists basically wanted was independence. The UNSC did some terrible things to keep their grip on their colonies.

Just look at Bandersnatch on Far Isle.

So the Innies killing civilians because they are mad at the establishment is justified? I suppose the IRA bombings were justified too seeing as it was for independence.

  • 12.15.2011 4:04 PM PDT


Posted by: Wolverfrog

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Wolverfrog
The UNSC was practically totalitarian before the Covenant war. Its toppling wouldn't have been such a terrible thing were it not for the immense collateral damage that would come with it. Spartans were designed to enforce fascism.


Just curious, where is this ever stated/hinted at?

Cause in all the halo lore I've gone through, I've never gotten this "UNSC was fascist" theme.


Fascist was a strong word to use, but hyperbole always gets attention. But all the insurrectionists basically wanted was independence. The UNSC did some terrible things to keep their grip on their colonies.

Just look at Bandersnatch on Far Isle.


Come on, there is NO information on that event. You really think they nuked the colony just cause of peaceful protests for independence? No, I bet the people there were causing major -blam!-, or about to. Still not really proof of the UNSC being oppressive.

Even then, let's look at the rebels first actions. Inspection gone wrong, countered with spacing the inspection crew, murdering the crew then using the weapons on board to critically damage three destroyers and kill even more servicemen.

  • 12.15.2011 4:04 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: wcd45
You have the ability to cure cancer once and for all, but to do it you have to kill 75 new born babies. Do you do it? Afterall 75 lives is a tiny number in comparison to the number of people that cancer has killed and will kill in the future. This is the sort of decision that Halsey made.

So would you do it?

False analogy. Your analogy involves us killing the babies. Halsey did not intentionally kill her candidates. Secondly, I assume that this is some form of ultimate super-cancer that is rapidly killing 90% of Humanity and that every last medical contingency has been exhausted, because that is the odds that Halsey perceived facing Humanity when she looked at Carver's findings.

[Edited on 12.15.2011 4:06 PM PST]

  • 12.15.2011 4:05 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Wolverfrog

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Wolverfrog
The UNSC was practically totalitarian before the Covenant war. Its toppling wouldn't have been such a terrible thing were it not for the immense collateral damage that would come with it. Spartans were designed to enforce fascism.


Just curious, where is this ever stated/hinted at?

Cause in all the halo lore I've gone through, I've never gotten this "UNSC was fascist" theme.


Fascist was a strong word to use, but hyperbole always gets attention. But all the insurrectionists basically wanted was independence. The UNSC did some terrible things to keep their grip on their colonies.

Just look at Bandersnatch on Far Isle.


Still not really proof of the UNSC being oppressive.


They nuked. A colony. Of civilians.

  • 12.15.2011 4:09 PM PDT

Waypoint Moderators aren't really Moderators, just power hungry and its goal is defend their beloved Halo at all costs. (Meaning that they wank Halo too much.)

BS Angel is alleged foe so, be wary of Waypoint and its moderators! Do not attempt to move to Waypoint. Enter your own risk.

*WARNING* IT IS MY OPINION.

Sure, it's ethically wrong to abduct 75 kids but it's necessary, I guess.

IMO, Halsey should be released.

  • 12.15.2011 4:10 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Wolverfrog
They nuked. A colony. Of civilians.

And that justifies them nuking a colony of innocent people in return?

  • 12.15.2011 4:12 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Wolverfrog
They nuked. A colony. Of civilians.

And that justifies them nuking a colony of innocent people in return?

An eye for an eye leaves us all blind. Or something to that effect.

[Edited on 12.15.2011 4:14 PM PST]

  • 12.15.2011 4:14 PM PDT

Punished, let her rot for what she did to those families and the horrors she caused those Spartans.

They honestly were not needed for the fight against the Insurrection, the UNSC was fine as it is. If the Covenant didn't show up and the war with the Insurrection had continued with the absents of the Spartans, we all know the UNSC would have prevailed.

Spartans weren't made for the Covenant.

[Edited on 12.15.2011 4:33 PM PST]

  • 12.15.2011 4:32 PM PDT

If released, what then?

Her strengths obviously lie in research and development, but is that all she's good for?

  • 12.15.2011 4:32 PM PDT


Posted by: Wolverfrog
They nuked. A colony. Of civilians.


Far Isle was a human colony world. In 2492, a massive insurrectionist uprising occurred on the planet. The United Nations Space Command was unable to contain the rebellion, prompting the UNSC to declare code Bandersnatch: the UNSC used nuclear weapons to raze the colony.

That's the information we have. Does it really sound like the rebels weren't being violent of some sort?

  • 12.15.2011 4:40 PM PDT


Posted by: mojeda101
Punished, let her rot for what she did to those families and the horrors she caused those Spartans.

They honestly were not needed for the fight against the Insurrection, the UNSC was fine as it is. If the Covenant didn't show up and the war with the Insurrection had continued with the absents of the Spartans, we all know the UNSC would have prevailed.

Spartans weren't made for the Covenant.


Um, rebels were using nukes fairly often. They were destroying civilian buildings, and killing large numbers of civilians JUST to hurt a few UNSC personnel. You say the spartans aren't needed?

  • 12.15.2011 4:42 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Wolverfrog
They nuked. A colony. Of civilians.


Far Isle was a human colony world. In 2492, a massive insurrectionist uprising occurred on the planet. The United Nations Space Command was unable to contain the rebellion, prompting the UNSC to declare code Bandersnatch: the UNSC used nuclear weapons to raze the colony.

That's the information we have. Does it really sound like the rebels weren't being violent of some sort?


It sounds like the UNSC didn't have enough troops/resources to properly contain or placate the situation and so just decided to nuke it. It also sounds like it was a pretty horrific happening if it was enough to galvanise an entire system-wide insurrection.

Nukes should always be a deterrent, never a solution.

  • 12.15.2011 4:44 PM PDT


Posted by: Wolverfrog

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Wolverfrog
They nuked. A colony. Of civilians.


Far Isle was a human colony world. In 2492, a massive insurrectionist uprising occurred on the planet. The United Nations Space Command was unable to contain the rebellion, prompting the UNSC to declare code Bandersnatch: the UNSC used nuclear weapons to raze the colony.

That's the information we have. Does it really sound like the rebels weren't being violent of some sort?


It sounds like the UNSC didn't have enough troops/resources to properly contain or placate the situation and so just decided to nuke it. It also sounds like it was a pretty horrific happening if it was enough to galvanise an entire system-wide insurrection.

Nukes should always be a deterrent, never a solution.


That incident didn't even start the insurrection. It was them slaughtering the crew of the Callisto in cold blood, then using it's weapons to heavily damage and kill a good number of UNSC personnel on three destroyers.

  • 12.15.2011 4:46 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

Spartans are needed. We see the UNSC try and use normal tactics against the Innies in Contact Harvest. It ends with several UNSC troops killed, a half dozen Innies dead as well and a restaurant full of civilians leveled by a bomb. I think it is fair to say that it was not working. Halsey was better than Ackerson. Ackerson was defended because the SIII program had consent which basically amounted to them asking a bunch of war orphans if they wanted to get back at the people who killed their parents. They never said that they would endure harsh training, be forced to go on suicide mission, and have a life expectancy of less then 20.

  • 12.15.2011 4:48 PM PDT
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Five exclamations marks are a good signifier of an insane mind. As is trying to hide from Death in an airtight room. Silly wizard.

I think that using nukes were a bit overkill but perhaps it was to prevent a greater war? Were the Rebels acting in a way that could have led to even greater bloodshed? What if the reason they nuked the colony was because the Rebels had access to WMDs and the UNSC was afraid that they would use them to attack civilians?

  • 12.15.2011 5:08 PM PDT

"I'm afraid of the man I'll become if I lay my life down for the people I don't even care for"

I think I should come here after i`m done with glasslands..... ;)

  • 12.15.2011 5:37 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: mojeda101
Punished, let her rot for what she did to those families and the horrors she caused those Spartans.

They honestly were not needed for the fight against the Insurrection, the UNSC was fine as it is. If the Covenant didn't show up and the war with the Insurrection had continued with the absents of the Spartans, we all know the UNSC would have prevailed.

Spartans weren't made for the Covenant.


Um, rebels were using nukes fairly often. They were destroying civilian buildings, and killing large numbers of civilians JUST to hurt a few UNSC personnel. You say the spartans aren't needed?
Point? I'd choose a frigate over a Spartan any day.

  • 12.15.2011 8:30 PM PDT

Glory and fame, blood is our name!
Souls full of thunder, hearts of steel!
Killers of men, a warrior's friend!
Sworn to avenge our fallen brothers!
Sons of the gods, today we shall die.
Open Valhalla's door!
Let the battle begin, with swords in the wind! Hail Gods of War!

Pre Covenant war? Kidnapping children, turning them into super-soldiers in order to combat Insurrectionists. Shady, even illegal. Not the best solution IMO. But her practices were backed by the government. If anything, question the brass who gave her the OK (Did the UNSC even try diplomacy with them, I'm not too read-up on the Innies)

During the war? Extreme luck on her part. Re-purposing the S-II's for fighting the Covies was an an obvious course of action. Their contribution to the war (John in particular, cliche as it is) was invaluable. Had she not done what she did, humanity would've most likely been wiped out. Unless the Covenant encountered Installation 05 earlier, then the Flood would've consumed Humanity. Kind of a moot point, but still.

All in all, her actions were reprehensible, but vital to humanities survival. I think that having the Spartans fight the covenant was her saving grace, and that the UNSC should be responsible (If anyone) for giving the go-ahead to her, to do what she did to fight the Innies.

  • 12.15.2011 8:32 PM PDT

I would wager they did, but the Spartans were created to fight the terrorists willing to nuke a colony for no reason, or bomb a club just to hurt a few UNSC servicemen in it.

  • 12.15.2011 8:54 PM PDT
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The point is that different people see Halsey as a monster. The Insurrection was definitely bad, by Halsey was the Chief Scientist of ONI. The organization is shady, so were Halsey's methods.

  • 12.15.2011 8:55 PM PDT


Posted by: wcd45

Posted by: grey101
I don't understand the point of the argument. If The Spartan II project didn't start that means humanity would have been easy pickings for the covenant. So overall they were good to have.

So you feel that the end justifies the means, which is a perfectly valid argument. But at the core of my point is that atrocities were commited to save the human race and those crimes must be punished.

Let me throw a more recent but still ethical question at you and the others that have responded to me.

You have the ability to cure cancer once and for all, but to do it you have to kill 75 new born babies. Do you do it? Afterall 75 lives is a tiny number in comparison to the number of people that cancer has killed and will kill in the future. This is the sort of decision that Halsey made.

So would you do it?


In the face of something like the Insurrection? Yes, totally and completely, the end justifies the means. And ultimately the responsibility of the Spartan II program lies not on Halsey, but Parangosky and however many other heads of ONI approved the program and did the actual kidnapping of the kids.

And that analogy doesn't work, it's nothing at all like what we have with the Spartan program. First off, cancer is nowhere near as serious in comparison to the Insurrection, these were terrorists nuking large civilian centers almost every day throughout the Human colonies just to try and take out a couple UNSC servicemen or try and get the UNSC to comply with their demands. And cancer is not some great danger threatening the survival of the human race or the stability of the whole of human society.

  • 12.15.2011 10:38 PM PDT

I think the problem is that people are generally discussing how they feel. Or what they thought was right. Have we even looked to see how Halsey felt about what she did. Here's a quote from The Fall of Reach:
Dr. Halsey knew what she had to do. Her duty. It was for the greater good. All humanity would be served...even if a tiny handful of them had to suffer for it. Still, when she turned inward and faced her complicity in this-she was revolted by what she saw.

She knew what she was doing wasn't good. That it was wrong to take a child and train them to be a killing machine. But it was necessary. Because of her actions children and parents went through pain that they otherwise wouldn't have had to go through. But it was necessary. The truth is that sometimes we are forced to do things we dont want to. But sometimes it's necessary.

I dont like that it happened, but I hate that it was necessary. Do you see the crux of the matter here? I know that this is just a story, but did you ever think that maybe in that world it was destiny? Without Halsey doing what was necessary we wouldn't have had The Chief to stop the destruction of a galaxy.

People have been arguing over her decision and the ethics involved but the truth is, if the chief had it to do over, well i think he would have don it the same. I know if I was in Halsey's shoes and had to make the decision she did, i would have made the same one. She knew the consequences and was prepared to pay them, because she knew that if there was consequences to pay then her deciosion was right.

  • 12.15.2011 11:49 PM PDT

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien.
Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar.
tenn' Ambar-metta!

Ok Halsey had the idea and formula to create Spartans, but ONI was the one who gave her the power to do it, why is ONI not taking responsability?

  • 12.16.2011 12:00 AM PDT