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Subject: Why did Truth excommunicate and attempt to exterminate the Elites?

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

T4R

Glasslands has completely confused me on this. Is it because the Brutes were better slaves? How so? In what way were they better slaves?

It was widely believed that it was because they had a lower propensity to ask questions, that their hearts were more invested in the Great Journey and the faith in general, that they had more faith and trust in the Prophets and their teachings than the Elites. Going back to the Cole Protocol we see how Truth has a close brush with death at the hands of Sangheili who are too smart for their own good, leading him to open his eyes to the fact that their race are not as loyal and zealous as they once were; that they had better keep a close eye one them.

Yet I see none of this crap post Halo 3. All I see is dogma, dogma, dogma, dogma with a sloppy over-serving of Prophet inspired misanthropy. So...why? They still seemed like pretty reliable and upstanding theocratic fascists to me. Is Truth just completely moronic in throwing away his strongest allies who are completely on his side with respect to everything?

  • 12.19.2011 9:09 PM PDT

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  • 12.19.2011 9:31 PM PDT

i thought part of the reason was to because the Elites "allowed" a prophet to be killed in Halo 2. And they also allowed a "Holy Ring" to be destroyed. Though obviously there was more reasons behind this. Perhaps it was because if they were more zealous none of this would be allowed.

[Edited on 12.19.2011 9:38 PM PST]

  • 12.19.2011 9:36 PM PDT

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Because when Guilty Spark told the truth of the rings to an elite, he and all under his command committed Heresy. (Halo 2, gas mine) While Tartarus and his Brutes were so steadfast in their beliefs that they tried to fire the ring anyway.

Basically I think Truth decided that the Elites were just too smart...

  • 12.19.2011 9:36 PM PDT


Posted by: Xerzaph
Because when Guilty Spark told the truth of the rings to an elite, he and all under his command committed Heresy. (Halo 2, gas mine) While Tartarus and his Brutes were so steadfast in their beliefs that they tried to fire the ring anyway.

Basically I think Truth decided that the Elites were just too smart...
this.

  • 12.19.2011 9:38 PM PDT
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(To discuss Halo 4.)

It actually goes back much further than that. Truth knew one day the Elites would be discontented with the Covenant, in Contact Harvest/First Strike/Cole Protocol he took the Brutes as a more loyal and competent race.

It was simply his preference over who should be his slaves. He also realized that the Elites were capable of killing him and destroying the Covenant.

He secretly arranged for the humans to be annihilated, so he could cause the genocide of the Elites.

On the other hand, the High Prophet of Regret took the Elites as his main force, the opposite to Truth.

For Truth it came down to loyalty.

[Edited on 12.19.2011 9:50 PM PST]

  • 12.19.2011 9:48 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: TDR Mudcat09
i thought part of the reason was to because the Elites "allowed" a prophet to be killed in Halo 2. And they also allowed a "Holy Ring" to be destroyed. Though obviously there was more reasons behind this. Perhaps it was because if they were more zealous none of this would be allowed.

I forgot about this. There is so much more I could have put in the OP with regards to this, but this is an important point regarding how well planned this act was. Truth withdrew the Elite's forces. Rtas states that MC was within their grasps until Truth ordered his forces to withdraw.

The result? The obvious result that one does not need to be precognitive to foresee? Regret will most likely be nailed. As is what happened. This then gives him the perfect excuse to change the guard, to shame and discredit the Elites and make them look incompetent and weak. All this planning...for seemingly nothing.

  • 12.19.2011 9:55 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

I am sticking with the Idea that truth had some epiphany or found something that he wasn't able to full grasp. I don't think him having a few assassination attempts would push him over,especially since they are expected. Truth acted with far too much knowledge in halo 3...

  • 12.20.2011 5:10 AM PDT
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Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

Posted by: anton1792

...post Halo 3...

Well there's your problem. It has been shown in many novels like Cole Protocol that Elites respect Humans saying we have "strong blood" among other things. Yet we see none of this respect in Glasslands. Before Glasslands came out it would have made sense for Truth to eliminate the Elites. Now after Glasslands the Elites have lost that grudging respect for humanity and it is replaced by dogma and contempt.

  • 12.20.2011 5:22 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Xd00999
Posted by: anton1792

...post Halo 3...

Well there's your problem. It has been shown in many novels like Cole Protocol that Elites respect Humans saying we have "strong blood" among other things. Yet we see none of this respect in Glasslands. Before Glasslands came out it would have made sense for Truth to eliminate the Elites. Now after Glasslands the Elites have lost that grudging respect for humanity and it is replaced by dogma and contempt.


I feel like that is because the elites are blaming the humans for turning their world upside down though.

  • 12.20.2011 5:41 AM PDT

Truth was worried the Sangheili would soon discover the truth about the Great Journey, and so threw them from positions of power before it happened so they wouldn't just be able to internally destroy the Covenant when that time came.

Imagine if Sangheili were still the hierarch's honour guards when the Arbiter revealed to them the truth. Truth, Regret and Mercy would have been apprehended immediately.

Also, Truth never liked the Sangheili; hence why he used Jiralhanae to orchestrate his ascension to power. I think it was only Regret's close bond with them, which kept the Sangheili loyal to the current hierarchs, which held him back from deposing them earlier, and also the war with the humans.

With humanity's homeworld discovered, a Halo poised to fire, Jiralhanae station throughout all the Covenant and Regret in a position to be conveniently killed off, he decided to finally execute the plan to dispose of the Sangheili.

  • 12.20.2011 7:01 AM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Because he doesn't like split jaws.

  • 12.20.2011 8:48 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Wolverfrog
Truth was worried the Sangheili would soon discover the truth about the Great Journey,

Why?

  • 12.20.2011 9:02 AM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Because he doesn't like split jaws.


Or hinge-heads if we go with the unexplained new widespread insult for them.

  • 12.20.2011 9:25 AM PDT
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Posted by: Xerzaph
Because when Guilty Spark told the truth of the rings to an elite, he and all under his command committed Heresy. (Halo 2, gas mine) While Tartarus and his Brutes were so steadfast in their beliefs that they tried to fire the ring anyway.

Basically I think Truth decided that the Elites were just too smart...

I think this sums it up.

  • 12.20.2011 9:30 AM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Wolverfrog
Truth was worried the Sangheili would soon discover the truth about the Great Journey,

Why?


Because the humans knew the truth, and the Sangheili were romping around Installation 05; since Guilty Spark had been so free with the actuality of Halo's purpose, they probably believed Penitent Tangent would be too. I imagine that's why they sent Tartarus to retrieve and deactivate Guilty Spark after the Arbiter retrieved him from Sesa Refum'ee.

  • 12.20.2011 9:52 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Wolverfrog
Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Wolverfrog
Truth was worried the Sangheili would soon discover the truth about the Great Journey,

Why?

Because the humans knew the truth, and the Sangheili were romping around Installation 05; since Guilty Spark had been so free with the actuality of Halo's purpose, they probably believed Penitent Tangent would be too. I imagine that's why they sent Tartarus to retrieve and deactivate Guilty Spark after the Arbiter retrieved him from Sesa Refum'ee.

So summing this all up then:

Truth orders the excommunication and subsequent extermination of all Sangheili because he believed that a small number on the Ring could discover the truth of the Great Journey because he sent them, knowingly, into the environments and into the vicinity of Forerunner AI who would make that possible in the first place.

I find that a little too incredulous and straw grasping to believe. I doubt Truth would be that stupid and short-sighted.

Posted by: Wolverfrog
Also, Truth never liked the Sangheili;

Why?

  • 12.20.2011 10:21 AM PDT

I don't care. The fact is that he did try to have the Sangheili eliminated, anything else is just pedantry.

[Edited on 12.20.2011 10:25 AM PST]

  • 12.20.2011 10:25 AM PDT
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  • 12.20.2011 10:37 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Wolverfrog
I don't care. The fact is that he did try to have the Sangheili eliminated, anything else is just pedantry.

What? Are you actually being serious? You mean it is pedantry when the facts are not in your favour but not pedantry when they allow you to sit and write an OPs worth of theory on things like Truth's motivation and debate canonical semantics when people try to pick holes in it?

I guess no story needs to make sense then or have any deeper significance, because as long as the fact remains, -blam!- the rest. It is all just pedantry in the end! (Except when the facts support me!)

Aye, right.

Why Truth knew what Halo's true purpose was *With Evidence*

"I don't care. The fact is that he did try to activate the Halo Array, anything else is just pedantry."


[Edited on 12.20.2011 11:01 AM PST]

  • 12.20.2011 10:46 AM PDT

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Posted by: Wolverfrog
I don't care. The fact is that he did try to have the Sangheili eliminated, anything else is just pedantry.


It's actually still a pretty big deal. The Great Schism defines post Human-Covenant War events, however they no longer apply. Before, the Elites were dwindling in faith and growing to respect humanity, the youth moreso. Now with Glasslands, none of that applies at all.

So what was the point?

  • 12.20.2011 10:48 AM PDT

You guys react too easily.

Anyway, I don't think the impacts of the Great Schism were communicated across properly in Glasslands. I can't imagine the Sangheili who fought alongside humans against the Covenant and Flood acting like Telcam (stupid name) does.

What you don't see is often more important than what you do see. We never see separatist Mglekgolo, Unggoy or Kig-yar in Halo 3, but that doesn't mean the Great Schism applied to the Sangheili alone; it was a schism which divided the entire Covenant. We don't see that. But it happened.

  • 12.20.2011 12:54 PM PDT

Have to wonder how brutes came to work alongside both Elites and humans post halo 3...

I mean, everything beforehand implied they devolved into massive infighting + fighting against the Elites.

Ah, but the grunts and hunters who joined the Elites where known. It was simply in halo 3 they aren't shown. We saw them in halo 2 easily. So we knew they existed.

  • 12.20.2011 1:15 PM PDT


Posted by: Xd00999
Posted by: anton1792

...post Halo 3...

Well there's your problem. It has been shown in many novels like Cole Protocol that Elites respect Humans saying we have "strong blood" among other things. Yet we see none of this respect in Glasslands. Before Glasslands came out it would have made sense for Truth to eliminate the Elites. Now after Glasslands the Elites have lost that grudging respect for humanity and it is replaced by dogma and contempt.


News Bulletin: this just in, Jul Mdama now represents the views of the entire Sangheilian race while the Arbiter's beliefs are nothing.

Truth eliminated the Elites because the Brutes are obedient. This is foreshadowed in Contact Harvest.

"Tartarus: You dare lecture me about faith?

Macubeus: You are obediant, nephew. One day I hope you learn the difference."

/paraphrased, I'm not going to go searching for it atm.

The Elites asked questions, such as: why are we not letting the humans join? Some of the Elites respected the humans as warriors. And we already had a case of where Elites had broken from the Covenant because they were more accepting of the truth (which, if you'll note from the ending of Halo 2, the obedient Brutes were not).

The Prophet of Truth took up the role as High Prophet for the sole purpose of keeping the Covenant together, not to ignite the Great Journey (his insanity lead to that in the end). The Elites were too individualistic and free-thinking for the Covenant to have survived under the then-current climate, so Truth changed the guard to the more obedient Brutes, who would not question their Alpha Male.

I'm baffled at how some of you are trying to shoe-horn more Glasslands hate into this. You are trying to say the opinion of one Elite Keep represents the opinions of all Elites everywhere (which the book itself makes sure the readers know isn't true with the Arbiter and his followers) and that this somehow makes the Great Schism impossible or harder to work out. The very reason behind the Great Schism is again and again repeated and reinforced throughout Glasslands, that the Elites are not a single minded entity that will obey the notions set forth by their leaders. They are a race of individuals with their own personal ideals and notions.

Some of the more instinctive people, like Jul and his Keep, remain arrogant, as the Elites always had been. What do you get when you kick the crap and ruin the lives of a people as arrogant as the Elites? They'll be angry and want to prove their authority and superiority to the object of their anger and what they percieve as the source of all their problems. What happens when you take away that problem with a swift stroke?

They'll focus their anger on the next best thing that they can get in their cross hairs. While coming up with reasons to justify it.

3,000 years of being lied too, an additional 30 years of mass murder and genocide, and all of the juicy anger and hatred that comes with it, does not go away over night, especially with a people as arrogant as the Elites. There will be groups who see the bigger picture, like the Arbiter and his people, as their is multiple opinions for any debate, but not all opinions will be the same.

  • 12.20.2011 1:34 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Truth eliminated the Elites because the Brutes are obedient. This is foreshadowed in Contact Harvest.

"Tartarus: You dare lecture me about faith?

Macubeus: You are obediant, nephew. One day I hope you learn the difference."

/paraphrased, I'm not going to go searching for it atm.

It is the same thing. Part of faith involves the appeal to authority, obedience. It is a part of the irrationality of faith - appeal to incredulity, appeal to tradition and appeal to authority. If you want to say that the Brutes were obedient whilst the Elites were increasingly not then that assumes that their faith was weakening. Why would obedience be a problem when their faith was strong?

Losing faith in the core tenets of the religion, essentially the whole reason for the entire thing really, and other things will fall away as well. Increased scepticism lead to them questioning the Prophet's war on Humanity.

The Elites asked questions, such as: why are we not letting the humans join? Some of the Elites respected the humans as warriors. And we already had a case of where Elites had broken from the Covenant because they were more accepting of the truth (which, if you'll note from the ending of Halo 2, the obedient Brutes were not).
Here we go: "Only some thought this, but luckily not enough so that my new pet novel can make perfect sense". This reasoning is nothing more than an abandonment of your reasoning faculties, and is to a lesser extent completely self-serving. Despite the rather explicit statement given by the Encyclopaedia which states that the Elites have a long standing tradition ingrained into their society of viewing with high respect and admiration opponents who are tenacious, courages and cunning and that it is quite frankly the only reason why the Covenant was as strong as it was, it is to do nothing more than to grasp at straws to turn around and say that Staten wrote Conversations from the Universe for nothing more than to waste paper, especially when Halo 2 and Halo 3 would end with the Elites helping Humanity, and that they would get almost half of the entire game to characterizing them. Of all the material that was cut from Halo 2, almost an hours worth of cinematics, this went in to that booklet over everything else. However, apparently it is not significant to the story. Go and take comfort in your completely pathetic apologetic reasoning for this, this whole "Ohh, only some think this", but it is utter nonsense.

Truth ordered a species wide extermination of the Elites. This is not merrily explained away by the use of the word "Some".

The Prophet of Truth took up the role as High Prophet for the sole purpose of keeping the Covenant together, not to ignite the Great Journey (his insanity lead to that in the end). The Elites were too individualistic and free-thinking for the Covenant to have survived under the then-current climate, so Truth changed the guard to the more obedient Brutes, who would not question their Alpha Male.
And then you go and contradict yourself. Brilliant. So first only some are sceptical of the war and the faith, but now they are collectively referred to as free-thinking and sceptical? Do you even know what that former word implies?

I'm baffled at how some of you are trying to shoe-horn more Glasslands hate into this. You are trying to say the opinion of one Elite Keep represents the opinions of all Elites everywhere (which the book itself makes sure the readers know isn't true with the Arbiter and his followers) and that this somehow makes the Great Schism impossible or harder to work out. The very reason behind the Great Schism is again and again repeated and reinforced throughout Glasslands, that the Elites are not a single minded entity that will obey the notions set forth by their leaders. They are a race of individuals with their own personal ideals and notions.

Some of the more instinctive people, like Jul and his Keep, remain arrogant, as the Elites always had been. What do you get when you kick the crap and ruin the lives of a people as arrogant as the Elites? They'll be angry and want to prove their authority and superiority to the object of their anger and what they percieve as the source of all their problems. What happens when you take away that problem with a swift stroke?

They'll focus their anger on the next best thing that they can get in their cross hairs. While coming up with reasons to justify it.

In Karen Traviss' myopic little world, the Sangheili have stopped butchering Humans because they do not have the ships or resources to do so. Levu said that he does not want peace, that he believes that Humans should be coerced to keep them in line, that they are deceptive. So it is apparent that even those who "support" the Arbiter are not in it because they want to stop killing Humans. This is what we have, not this bullsh­it about differing opinions and all that rubbish. Do you actually think that Traviss thought about any of that when she not once hinted at anything contrary to Jul other than Thel, and had Philips drum it in throughout the tripefest of a novel that the Sangheili utterly despise Humans and only allied to stop Truth?

Raia, what we thought would be a voice of reason, actually turns out to support Jul's genocidal intention. Bekan, Telcam and Forze are all the same. Phillips testament is the final nail in the coffin though. The author basically used him as a mouthpiece to say "Here is the situation". It is all we have got and is likely all we will ever get. When Thel walks into the council chamber he is mocked and no one supported him. Where is this varying opinion then?

Here is something. If there was as much variation in their opinions on the war as you imply with this novel then how the hell does Jul think he has any chance of persuading his people to continue butchering Humanity? He would fail, because his people would say no based upon what they should already know by this point, based upon their principles of honour and like you said, behaving as follows: "the Elites are not a single minded entity that will obey the notions set forth by their leaders". He has a chance to re-ignite the war, so evidently all these opinions do not exist to any meaningful degree if he thinks that the only opposition that faces him is the Arbiter.

It is essentially grasping at straws; an ad hoc. All the Sangheili characters in the book share exactly the same opinions. I see no reason to hold out the belief that any of their previous characterization means anything, especially not with the authors BS "psychological profiling techniques", which is a fancy way of putting "re-write characters".

3,000 years of being lied too, an additional 30 years of mass murder and genocide, and all of the juicy anger and hatred that comes with it, does not go away over night, especially with a people as arrogant as the Elites. There will be groups who see the bigger picture, like the Arbiter and his people, as their is multiple opinions for any debate, but not all opinions will be the same.
And now we are back to the premise that only some doubted the war. So we have went full circle. First some believe, then they are suddenly free-thinking and independent collectively, and now we are back to implying that only a few doubted. Your post is one great big contradiction. The anger and hatred from the war that was being replaced by doubt and admiration?

So this is all the Glasslands apologists could crap out tonight? I am disappointed.

  • 12.20.2011 3:01 PM PDT

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