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Subject: Say whaaaaaaaaaaaat (concerning Halsey's arrest)

What a waste....

Taking Kelly from the UNSC in a time of need was rash indeed, but how the hell can ONI nail her on the clones? Didn't Halsey make them to cover her tracks so no one got suspicious? Besides, ONI authorized it in the first place! There's really no point for her arrest other than Parangosky's 'revenge'(?).

  • 12.23.2011 11:56 PM PDT


Posted by: Nocbl2
Taking Kelly from the UNSC in a time of need was rash indeed, but how the hell can ONI nail her on the clones? Didn't Halsey make them to cover her tracks so no one got suspicious? Besides, ONI authorized it in the first place! There's really no point for her arrest other than Parangosky's 'revenge'(?).


They nail her for the actions of Hood (which they did nothing to stop or contest his orders), and as for the clones, it's because Halsey didn't tell Parangosky everything.

That's it. She hates Halsey's actions that provide closure to the families simply because Halsey acted outside of Parangosky's plan. Thus Halsey is immorale according to her.

  • 12.24.2011 12:00 AM PDT

What a waste....

I'm beginning to think Parangosky is just bats**t crazy.

  • 12.24.2011 12:02 AM PDT

Halsey's immorality is dependant on who you're asking. You people have to realize that humans will justify any action they can in any way they can. In Halsey's case, it is arguable that she did the clones for her own sake, so she would feel better. The stories from Halsey's perspective (every Halsey story ever) would never tell us that because she is justifying it in her own head. That said, it is quite possible that Halsey was doing the clones for the sake of covering ONI's tracks, but the fact Parangosky was never told made her suspicious.

So God forbid we get a story from the other perspective for once. God forbid both sides of the argument be heard. We've become so accustomed to Halsey being heralded as mankind's savior that we forget almost completely what she did was terrible. For ten years, Halsey was the hero who lead to humanity's salvation. So naturally, when someone comes out and says "she really wasn't all that great" the fanboys flip out. It's so like a government run propaganda machine it's hilarious. If someone in the American sixties had said Russia wasn't all that bad, then he probably would've been on a blacklist. Same if it were reversed.

The fans are exactly like this. Terrified of opinions that differ from theirs, no matter how biased and narrow minded the origins of that opinion were.

We cannot blame characters, especially the likes of the two ODSTs, for hating Halsey. If the government butchered and assimilated innocent children--killing around half of them--would you not be angry? If the answer is no, you're inhuman. Karen Traviss just showed how people would react to this news.

And in Parangosky's case, I refer you to previously established canon: "Only one person had ever crossed her and lived."

--Ghosts of Onyx

So is it really that surprising that Parangosky had her arrested? Take a look at the two characters: both hardcore and independant woman, both short fused in a sense, both in a leadership role of secrets, both of them with a large ego because of it, and one of them obsessive over revenge. Would there not be a form of alpha male (alpha female?) rivalry between the two?

I was surprised she didn't have her shot. As they said: "only one person had ever crossed her and lived." And I'm pretty sure that "one person" was Halsey. Well what do you know.

  • 12.24.2011 6:02 AM PDT

I'm sure she won't stay locked up forever.

  • 12.24.2011 6:09 AM PDT
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I dunno, Paragonsky's seems hell bent against Halsey for that one thing.

  • 12.24.2011 6:43 AM PDT

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Halsey is a war criminal, there's no grey area about it. She wasn't arrested for her involvement in the S-II Project, she was arrested for kidnapping Kelly.

She'll answer for the S-II stuff, but she was technically arrested for kidnapping Kelly.

  • 12.24.2011 6:51 AM PDT
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Posted by: Primo84
Halsey is a war criminal, there's no grey area about it. She wasn't arrested for her involvement in the S-II Project, she was arrested for kidnapping Kelly.

She'll answer for the S-II stuff, but she was technically arrested for kidnapping Kelly.


This. Not to mention that alot of aspects of the S-II program were probably illegal, which is why Parangosky intends to come clean about it. They did what they had to do to win the war, and now they're all going to pay the price for it.

  • 12.24.2011 7:36 AM PDT
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:)

Posted by: chubbz

Posted by: Primo84
Halsey is a war criminal, there's no grey area about it. She wasn't arrested for her involvement in the S-II Project, she was arrested for kidnapping Kelly.

She'll answer for the S-II stuff, but she was technically arrested for kidnapping Kelly.


This. Not to mention that alot of aspects of the S-II program were probably illegal, which is why Parangosky intends to come clean about it. They did what they had to do to win the war, and now they're all going to pay the price for it.

And that whole SIII project that isn't going to be public knowledge was better and more 'ethical' than the SII project, yes?

This annoys me. Parangosky gets all high and mighty about clones used within the SII project, but has absolutely no objections with taking a distraught 6 year old and sending them off to die.

And lets not even get into Halsey and Mendez arguments where Mendez slams Halsey for doing the SII project but seems to be ignorant enough to just ignore what he did himself, not once, but three times (Train the kids to die).

But I digress. It's my firm belief the Glasslands is the worst novel in the entire series.

  • 12.24.2011 7:47 AM PDT
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Posted by: Cobravert
I just saw a green monkey nut shot a small tan lizard(?) in a gunny sack.


Posted by: jross1993
Posted by: chubbz

Posted by: Primo84
Halsey is a war criminal, there's no grey area about it. She wasn't arrested for her involvement in the S-II Project, she was arrested for kidnapping Kelly.

She'll answer for the S-II stuff, but she was technically arrested for kidnapping Kelly.


This. Not to mention that alot of aspects of the S-II program were probably illegal, which is why Parangosky intends to come clean about it. They did what they had to do to win the war, and now they're all going to pay the price for it.

And that whole SIII project that isn't going to be public knowledge was better and more 'ethical' than the SII project, yes?

This annoys me. Parangosky gets all high and mighty about clones used within the SII project, but has absolutely no objections with taking a distraught 6 year old and sending them off to die.

And lets not even get into Halsey and Mendez arguments where Mendez slams Halsey for doing the SII project but seems to be ignorant enough to just ignore what he did himself, not once, but three times (Train the kids to die).

But I digress. It's my firm belief the Glasslands is the worst novel in the entire series.


Oh I noticed the Parangosky's hypocrisy, trust me. What irritated me is that she slams Halsey for justifying what she did, yet justifies her own involvement by 'coming clean' about it to the UEG, like that will make everything better. Not to mention that she knows nothing will be done about it since she's 92 and on the verge of croaking. Her justification that the S-IIIs were volunteers isn't any better, since Ackerson only intended them to be cannon fodder, whereas halsey actually valued every one of her Spartans.

Despite all of that, I liked Glasslands. It wasn't better than GoO or Contact Harvest, but it held it's own and was a good setup for more post-Halo novels.

  • 12.24.2011 8:00 AM PDT

My problem with the ODST's, was they are slamming Halsey but don't give a -blam!- about ONI training suicide soldiers (I distinctly remember one mentioning to himself that S3's are suicide soldiers, meaning he knew about them).

To Roberto, she wasn't heralded as a savior, other media shown her in a neutral light. Didn't shove she was good or bad at us. Glasslands shoves a "Halsey is 100% bad" viewpoint at us, and since Travis apparently claims to have written an unbiased viewpoint on them, that's what annoys more people then the simple hating.

Edit: My only hope is when Parangosky comes clean, the UNSC/UEG arrests her, or strips ONI of it's powerbase and puts Osman to a admiralty board review to decide if she becomes next head of ONI. Since Parangosky went "You are going to be next head." instead of it being decided by who ONI is supposed to be answering to.

[Edited on 12.24.2011 8:41 AM PST]

  • 12.24.2011 8:39 AM PDT

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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
My problem with the ODST's, was they are slamming Halsey but don't give a -blam!- about ONI training suicide soldiers (I distinctly remember one mentioning to himself that S3's are suicide soldiers, meaning he knew about them).
That's a fair point.

  • 12.24.2011 8:49 AM PDT
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Infection in Halo 3 isn't zombie killing; it's ethnic cleansing. Have you ever noticed that these "zombies" are just black Spartans?

The entire point of Glasslands: Parangosky is just as cold and cruel as her reputation suggests. She's petty enough to reveal the full details on the Spartan-II project just to ruin Halsey's reputation as revenge for daring to have a personality and ego large enough to match her own.

I can see Cortana wanting to pull another Ackerson on her if they ever meet up - except resulting directly in Parangosky's death at Cortana's hands, not by Covenant proxy.

[Edited on 12.24.2011 12:10 PM PST]

  • 12.24.2011 12:02 PM PDT

Both Parangosky and Halsey had perfect development before glasslands. They both were bad and did all they could to win the war. They themselfs knew what they did was wrong and noone claimed otherwise. However the 180 turn Paragonsky's character takes by coming clean is just annoying. It serves no purpose other then make her look more humane, to show she has regrets. It's bullcrap. She is stone cold the same for ONI that's why they do the stuff they do and the rest of the military shuns them for it.
Traviss is going the wrong way with the novels focussing too much on morality instead of writing a story based on the halo's, forerunners, flood and covenant.
I hope someone next time atleast test reads her next novel and give her some more guidelines. There's still some hope she fixes this in the other novels.

Halsey's arrest is not out of the blue however it wasn't handled that well (pulling yet another missing "spartan" out of their ass, no matter how good her character was).
The whole build up was flawed, getting too much moral crap shoved in our faces. It took the focus of both the shield world they were in and other possible storylines.

This book was a missed opportunity and I really wish they used eric as the writer.

  • 12.24.2011 12:35 PM PDT

Yeah Shady, I know some guys who are majorly disappointed that they waited five or so years to learn more about the shield world, only to get basically no information and instead a bunch of "Halsey is bad!"

  • 12.24.2011 12:47 PM PDT
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We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
My problem with the ODST's, was they are slamming Halsey but don't give a -blam!- about ONI training suicide soldiers (I distinctly remember one mentioning to himself that S3's are suicide soldiers, meaning he knew about them).
That's a fair point.


I have stated that several times..

  • 12.24.2011 3:25 PM PDT

What a waste....

@ Roberto: Sorry if it seemed like a fanboy flip out. I was more asking the Universe what they thought of Parangosky's motivations.

@ jross: actually, he did it 4 times. The SIIs, then Alpha, Beta and Gamma companies of IIIs.

  • 12.24.2011 9:08 PM PDT

Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
My problem with the ODST's, was they are slamming Halsey but don't give a -blam!- about ONI training suicide soldiers (I distinctly remember one mentioning to himself that S3's are suicide soldiers, meaning he knew about them).
That's a fair point.


I don't understand how ONI has so much power when they aren't a 'secret' organization to most extents. They have offices everywhere, and the UNSC watches over ONI besides Sections Zero and One. (Even to some extent higher ranking officials watch those branches.) The things they do are acknowledged by UNSC officials, but nothing seems to be done until Halsey is pinned.

  • 12.24.2011 11:01 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
For ten years, Halsey was the hero who lead to humanity's salvation. So naturally, when someone comes out and says "she really wasn't all that great" the fanboys flip out.


I don't think this is the case much at all. We've known that what Halsey did was "wrong," and we know that she knows. But what Parangosky is doing (according to Traviss,) is the pot calling the kettle black. It would be like Hitler saying "Yeah, but... Look what Stalin is doing over there." And putting him on trial. That's the way I see it, at least, both are somewhat in the wrong, but at least Halsey tried to offer some closure to the families.

  • 12.25.2011 12:34 AM PDT

Well Roberto, I can honestly tell you Traviss butchered an honest case where she could truly be showing it from a non-biased viewpoint.

How? Naomi. Osman points out bad parts of Halsey sure, but what was Naomi doing the entire time? Sitting aside letting them diss Halsey? Never once spoke up and pointed out good parts of her?

Come on, we aren't flipping out about somebody saying she did bad things or wasn't that great. We are, however, rightfully angry at the bull-blam!- claims for the arrest and how EVERYBODY in the book is against her, or indifferent. Come on, you think Fred and crew would really stop simply because Osman in a captain and goes "Can't see her?" or that an ODST would have the nerve to stand up to an entire Spartan II squad wanting to see the person on the other side of the door?

You think they wouldn't report it directly to Hood and then he would carve Parangosky a new one, cause according to some pro-glasslands guys she can't cross him or counter-act his orders. That's why she did NOTHING to stop him from sending Blue Team to Onyx.

Get off your high horse, previous halo lore didn't say she was right or wrong. Oh, and as I said earlier, the ODST's get royally pissed at what Halsey did. I'd buy that, if they didn't know S3's were suicide soldiers and kept working for ONI like nothing was a matter with that.(somebody can confirm, but in the parts I read I distinctly remember as pointed out in previous post, that one of the ODST's after being talked out of murdering Halsey *or around that time*, commented mentally about the S3's being suicide soldiers)

So yeah, justify that. Why is the ODST hating Halsey for the S2 project actions, but being perfectly fine and not backing out of the mission for the S3 project actions good storytelling? Especially since he apparently knows enough details about both. By your own logic, the two ODST's should absolutely despite Parangosky and Osman for the S3 project as much as they hate Halsey. Let's also toss out the fact the ODST's and Philips shouldn't even know or have ACCESS to ANY of these files. I'd love to know why Parangosky didn't gut Osman for spilling those above top top secret details to them for no good reason other then "They might ask questions about me" or something like that.

Me? I'd want more information. I'd want to hear more about Halsey, from the Spartan's themselves. I wouldn't run off wanting to shoot her from a emotionless report. I'd go up to Fred or Naomi for example, and ask them about the program and Halsey.

[Edited on 12.25.2011 2:08 AM PST]

  • 12.25.2011 1:56 AM PDT

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Posted by: ROBERTO jh
We cannot blame characters, especially the likes of the two ODSTs, for hating Halsey. If the government butchered and assimilated innocent children--killing around half of them--would you not be angry? If the answer is no, you're inhuman. Karen Traviss just showed how people would react to this news.

You talk a remarkable amount of -blam!-.

Where is this butchering of children? Oh, you mean those who died in the Augmentation procedures? Ah, hyperbole then.

If the CIA did a similar act to stop WWIII, and then 40 years later an alien race came and slaughtered 5 out of every 6 people on Earth - 5 billion dead - no I would not give a -blam!- about what the CIA did 40 years ago to some kids. The mountain of dead, 5 billion high figuratively speaking, would probably jade me to such an extent that caring about anything of my old life and old beliefs would just seem totally trivial. These ODSTs have lived through something similar - dozens of worlds burned to ash, 23 billion dead, witnessed their friends being killed in battle - so I find it way too forced. There is no sense of scale with the book.

[Edited on 12.25.2011 5:20 AM PST]

  • 12.25.2011 5:06 AM PDT
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I agree with roberto its just showing a different side to the story nothing to get to upset about halsey was wrong for what she did and so was ONI for not stoping her. the point is no one was right and its all in the past so the only thing anyone wants to do is right their wrongs the problem is none of them could and thats the result.

  • 12.25.2011 12:21 PM PDT
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Posted by: SIFU8
I agree with roberto its just showing a different side to the story nothing to get to upset about halsey was wrong for what she did and so was ONI for not stoping her. the point is no one was right and its all in the past so the only thing anyone wants to do is right their wrongs the problem is none of them could and thats the result.


The only thing is that Halsey was correct in following the orders of her government and said government was correct in giving to her.

  • 12.25.2011 12:24 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Posted by: anton1792
If the CIA did a similar act to stop WWIII, and then 40 years later an alien race came and slaughtered 5 out of every 6 people on Earth - 5 billion dead - no I would not give a -blam!- about what the CIA did 40 years ago to some kids.


Especially if said children greatly helped in fending off and defeating this alien threat. That alone would justify the sacrifices required for such a weapon.

  • 12.25.2011 11:25 PM PDT

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Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Pfft...the only thing I can see them pinning on her is kidnapping Kelly and luring Blue Team to Onyx, but then not even. She promised Forerunner technological assets and guess what they found on Onyx? Forerunner technological assets.

Oh and I still find it hard to take ONI's position considering that while the Battle of Earth was going on, they detained Blue Team and were interrogating Fred about his actions at Reach. Yup, Hell has come to Earth and ONI is keeping top-tier assets from the field.

  • 12.25.2011 11:33 PM PDT

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