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Subject: Thoughts on Emile-A239


Posted by: Juan Teran

Posted by: grey101
The spire wasn't built...

Well, I strongly doubt it was dropped from orbit. I mean, it's a possibility, I guess, but is there any source you got this information from? Any speculation? Or is it a wild guess (which I hope it's not)?


Why not simply load up the game and note the impact crater centered around the Spire, and the human pipes crushed underneath it?

  • 12.29.2011 3:43 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Juan Teran

Posted by: grey101
The spire wasn't built...

Well, I strongly doubt it was dropped from orbit. I mean, it's a possibility, I guess, but is there any source you got this information from? Any speculation? Or is it a wild guess (which I hope it's not)?


Why not simply load up the game and note the impact crater centered around the Spire, and the human pipes crushed underneath it?

I thought it was confirmed the Spires were built and droped from orbit. The UNSC didn't destroy them because they thought they were meteorites.

  • 12.29.2011 3:46 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Juan Teran

Posted by: grey101
The spire wasn't built...

Well, I strongly doubt it was dropped from orbit. I mean, it's a possibility, I guess, but is there any source you got this information from? Any speculation? Or is it a wild guess (which I hope it's not)?


Why not simply load up the game and note the impact crater centered around the Spire, and the human pipes crushed underneath it?

Because when I see a Covenant structure, or a structure in general, the last thing that comes into my mind is that it was built somewhere else, and then dropped from orbit. I mean, wouldn't it break into pieces as it impacts with the surface? I'm in no position to actually confirm this, as I don't know how resistant it is, but it seems logical to me. Yes, I know that two Scarabs were dropped from orbit in Halo 3 and in the last mission of Halo: Reach there are more Scarabs being dropped, I guess from orbit, and they still worked pretty good, but it's still hard for me to believe that something THAT BIG can resist.

In any case, I already discussed this with DecepticonCobra, and since I can't prove that the structure would break as it crashes, I'm actually willing to accept this as the origin of the Spire. But again, there are some problems, like how much time was that Spire undetected? Why didn't ONI or the UNSC sent a team to investigate until this late? I assume that a ship carried that Spire from space, or something, and by the size of the Spire, I assume it wasn't a Phantom or a Spirit, couldn't they detect it? Do asteroids fall all the time on Reach for them not to care? Although I do admit it's a possibility and I'm willling to accept this new origin for the Spire, my point remains that this is truly bad writing.

[Edited on 12.29.2011 4:33 PM PST]

  • 12.29.2011 4:30 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Judging by the impact craters on Reach, I'm willing to bet it's fairly common. As for their lack of detection, I'm going with cloaking. I mean, the area they landed in is fairly barren. All they have to do is mobilize quickly and by then it doesn't matter if the UNSC found the Spires since their forces are already present.

  • 12.29.2011 4:34 PM PDT

Vengeance only leads to an ongoing cycle of hatred.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I like how you disregard my comment because you know it's true.

That's okay. As long as you know it's true.

  • 12.29.2011 4:59 PM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Posted by: Juan Teran

Somehow I can't quite express how under-appreciated you are in BU. Your posts are quite possibly one of the most entertainingly intelligent I've read in awhile, as your rhetoric with undertones of black humor, satire and quite often; sarcasm are flown right pass the majority of the people you speak to.

Almost like wasted fuel. It's the intellegent mockery that always brings a smile to my face when I read your post. What makes this such a joke is that this level of writing is so much higher than standard canon discussion: it's personality with flair.

I swear you're like "The Joker" From DC's Batman in this forum.

:)

  • 12.29.2011 6:11 PM PDT

Thanks mate, I really appreciate it.

:)

  • 12.29.2011 8:09 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Juan Teran
Thanks mate, I really appreciate it.

:)


If the humor gets any more dark and the remarks get any more smart, you are going to be the next me.

  • 12.29.2011 8:11 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Judging by the impact craters on Reach, I'm willing to bet it's fairly common. As for their lack of detection, I'm going with cloaking. I mean, the area they landed in is fairly barren. All they have to do is mobilize quickly and by then it doesn't matter if the UNSC found the Spires since their forces are already present.


Also the fact that ONI was keeping the rest of the UNSC forces in the dark concerning the Covenant being present at Reach as part of RED FLAG. There is that little bit to consider as well.

  • 12.29.2011 10:09 PM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Judging by the impact craters on Reach, I'm willing to bet it's fairly common. As for their lack of detection, I'm going with cloaking. I mean, the area they landed in is fairly barren. All they have to do is mobilize quickly and by then it doesn't matter if the UNSC found the Spires since their forces are already present.


Also the fact that ONI was keeping the rest of the UNSC forces in the dark concerning the Covenant being present at Reach as part of RED FLAG. There is that little bit to consider as well.
Oh yeah, heard that ONI had a lot to do with the fact that no one noticed the invasion. I mean, it never got mentioned in the book, they were too busy trying to stop this war, and wasting valuable resources while being attacked by the Covenant, so it didn't made a lot of sense. However, in the journal it is explained that ONI managed to keep this invasion secret, which barely made sense. Can't blame Nylund for such a lame explanation though, with the material given to him, if any, even I couldn't come with a decent explanation.

But I just can't help but wonder why? Why would ONI keep this invasion as a secret. Did you just mentioned that the UNSC forces didn't had a clue of this current invasion? WHAT?!? Is that even possible? So only a small part of the army actually knew what was going on the planet while the rest wasn't used? Wait a second... Long Night of Solace happened in August 14th, 2552, and at the end of that mission Holland (the guy who sent Noble Team to wash his dishes as he thought that they were worthy of such task, Noble Actual reference) "Must be the whole damn Covenant fleet!". People contantly tell me that it wasn't the whole fleet, just like half of it, or some lame excuse like that, and that the rest of the Covenant Fleet finally arrived on August 30, 2552, and Reach finally fell, giving us the perfect excuse for Halo: Reach to fit with "Halo: The Fall of Reach". Seriously? Can you seriously write that and sleep at night without feeling like a complete idiot (not offending you directly, just anyone who used that lame excuse)?

But the real problem in here, accepting the fact that ONI managed (God knows how) to keep this invasion in the dark, what could they possibly gain? It sure as hell won't give them any advantage, especially if they don't tell the UNSC what's going on. Again, I was under the impression that only the civilians weren't aware of the Covenant while the UNSC tried their best to defeat the invasion. I guess it makes some sense when you think about that lame excuse of how they can't do a single thing against that Supercarrier as, according to you, the UNSC wasn't informed, but I repeat, what could ONI gain from keeping everyone in the dark? If anything, they are losing the planet faster.

It didn't really help that they added those weird Terminal A.I. things, who now just happen to control the whole Universe. Did any of those thought that it would be a great strategy for them to lose Reach? Maybe they were aware that we couldn't possibly win this war and wanted to end it as fast as possible... ahhh -blam!- it.

This episode reminds me of Reach all the time.

Seriously, just read this:

"Other figures associated with The Simpsons have publicly criticized the episode. In a 2001 interview, Harry Shearer, the voice of Principal Skinner, recalled that after reading the script, he told the writers, "That's so wrong. You're taking something that an audience has built eight years or nine years of investment in and just tossed it in the trash can for no good reason, for a story we've done before with other characters. It's so arbitrary and gratuitous, and it's disrespectful to the audience."[27] In a later interview, Shearer added, "Now, [the writers] refuse to talk about it. They realize it was a horrible mistake. They never mention it. It's like they're punishing [the audience] for paying attention."[28] In the introduction to the ninth season DVD boxset, series creator Matt Groening describes "The Principal and the Pauper" as "one of [his] least favorite episodes."[29] He also called the episode "a mistake" in an interview with Rolling Stone.[30]"

You can even change the names from the actors and immediately feel identified with their frustration. In fact, let's do it!

"Other figures associated with Halo have publicly criticized the game. In a 2012 interview (Halo 4 interview :P), Jen Taylor, the voice of Cortana, recalled that after reading the script, she told the writers, "That's so wrong. You're taking something that an audience has built eight years or nine years of investment in and just tossed it in the trash can for no good reason, for a story we've done before with other characters. It's so arbitrary and gratuitous, and it's disrespectful to the audience." In a later interview, Taylor added, "Now, [the writers] refuse to talk about it. They realize it was a horrible mistake. They never mention it. It's like they're punishing [the audience] for paying attention." In the introduction to the Halo 4 Legendary Commentary, Franchise Development Director Frank O'Connor describes "Halo: Reach" as "one of [his] least favorite games." He also called the game "a mistake" in an interview with Rolling Stone.

[Edited on 12.29.2011 10:53 PM PST]

  • 12.29.2011 10:51 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Well, in the original Fall of Reach [2001 version, mind you], John notices that the personnel around the base he arrives to to meet with some high UNSC staff are really edgy as if they were waiting for something bad to happen, so the whole ONI keeping the invasion secret is plausible. Besides, in the book, the Covenant arrive and they magically know where to attack to shut down the Super MAC stations, which makes absolutely no sense, unless they had been observing the planet, which could make a plausible explanation for the whole ONI covering Invasion from public thing... just something I felt needed to be pointed out.

  • 12.30.2011 4:17 AM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

I am pretty sure 343 tried to fix the whole planet under siege thing with one of the data drops. ONI enforced a massive media blackout (considering that all news was going through UNSC channels as early as Cole Protocol this is somewhat easier to stomach) and kept everyone away from that side of the planet. A person in the data drops sees the lights from the battle and assumes it's some sort of celebration and those are fireworks. Not the greatest excuse.

  • 12.30.2011 4:56 AM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

But like I've said, the ONI coverup idea could be present since The Fall of Reach, there's gotta be a reason as of why all those people were so nervous (If I recall correctly, the base John arrives at has like, triple security and all the guards are on edge for no apparent reason).

  • 12.30.2011 5:00 AM PDT

Posted by: Juen Teran
But I just can't help but wonder why? Why would ONI keep this invasion as a secret. Did you just mentioned that the UNSC forces didn't had a clue of this current invasion? WHAT?!? Is that even possible? So only a small part of the army actually knew what was going on the planet while the rest wasn't used? Wait a second... Long Night of Solace happened in August 14th, 2552, and at the end of that mission Holland (the guy who sent Noble Team to wash his dishes as he thought that they were worthy of such task, Noble Actual reference) "Must be the whole damn Covenant fleet!". People contantly tell me that it wasn't the whole fleet, just like half of it, or some lame excuse like that, and that the rest of the Covenant Fleet finally arrived on August 30, 2552, and Reach finally fell, giving us the perfect excuse for Halo: Reach to fit with "Halo: The Fall of Reach". Seriously? Can you seriously write that and sleep at night without feeling like a complete idiot (not offending you directly, just anyone who used that lame excuse)?


All the UNSC forces outside of Reach yes, up until the 14th anyway. Kind hard to keep someone from blowing the whistle on the whole secret once the Covenant have unveiled the biggest ship any human has ever seen and have started a massive full-scale assault on the whole planet. After Noble discovered the Covenant forces at Visegrad pretty much all of Reach's home military knew about Covenant presence, it was only the UNSC forces outside of Reach that didn't. And the civilian population of Reach (except for perhaps the ones living in the scattered and out of the way settlements like Visegrad or the area around where the missions Nightfall and Tip of the Spear take place) and the rest of the UNSC most certainly had no idea that the Covenant were on Reach.

Now as for two separate fleets coming to assault Reach, that is fact. Look up the videos "Assault on the Stars" (or something similar to that, can't remember the exact title) on Waypoint id you don't believe me, it specifically mentions there being two fleets that attack Reach. The first one showing up not long after the Long Night of Solace is destroyed, and the other being the Fleet of Particular Justice arriving on August 30th. So this isn't some excuse made up by the fans or anything like that, this information from 343i, not the fanbase.

But the real problem in here, accepting the fact that ONI managed (God knows how) to keep this invasion in the dark, what could they possibly gain? It sure as hell won't give them any advantage, especially if they don't tell the UNSC what's going on. Again, I was under the impression that only the civilians weren't aware of the Covenant while the UNSC tried their best to defeat the invasion. I guess it makes some sense when you think about that lame excuse of how they can't do a single thing against that Supercarrier as, according to you, the UNSC wasn't informed, but I repeat, what could ONI gain from keeping everyone in the dark? If anything, they are losing the planet faster.

It didn't really help that they added those weird Terminal A.I. things, who now just happen to control the whole Universe. Did any of those thought that it would be a great strategy for them to lose Reach? Maybe they were aware that we couldn't possibly win this war and wanted to end it as fast as possible... ahhh -blam!- it.


Do you not remember that ONI controls the media and what goes into it in the UNSC? I see no problem at all with them keeping news of the Covenant being on Reach out of the media.
The whole reason they would keep it a secret is so they could secure a Covenant ship. The whole RED FLAG op was supposed to be kept in secret, ONI would lure the Covenant to a significant planet, and then capture a Covenant vessel to get at the Prophets. If the rest of the UNSC knew, then exactly what occurred with the LNoS mission would happen. The ship ONI was trying to acquire could (and most likely would) be destroyed before they had a chance to enact their own plans. As I said, this is exactly what happened with the LNoS mission, ONI was going to capture the ship and use it for RED FLAG, but Noble got to it first and destroyed it.

Read what I said above again. And because I know you'll probably ignore it or just skim it, I'll say it again, the UNSC at large (IE the whole interplanetary military) was not informed of, or aware of, the Covenant presence on Reach until some time around August 12th/14th. Only the local forces on and around Reach knew they were there the whole time.

And um, you do know that the Supercarrier (the LNoS anyway) is the single largest ship in the whole damn Covenant fleet right? And from past information about all previous Covenant capitol ships that the bigger they are the more powerful they are as well. And the LNoS pretty much dwarfs all the other Covenant ships we've seen so far. The LNoS is pretty much meant to be a mobile base, and from the fact that it can cloak be cloaked that it's got some of the most advanced tech the Covenant has onboard. Attacking it directly is tantamount to suicide, that is why the UNSC couldn't do much about it, if it did go directly on the offensive rather than sitting where it was in orbit over Reach then Kat's prediction (albeit a fairly large use of hyperbole, much like Hood's comment in Halo 2 about the FoPJ being 50 times the size of Regret's) of any reinforcements backing up a graveyard would be true.

  • 12.30.2011 10:23 AM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

You people seem to be forgetting that ONI planned on having the Spartan II's capture the Long Night of Solace. They kept the information secret to half of the planet about it (All things Navy were at the other side of Reach, save for the limited amount of ships we see in Reach's campaign). They used the excuse of the Visegrad Relay being down to keep all of the fleet at the other side of the planet.

The problem was, the Army got gun happy and started to fight the Covenant back, going as far as destroying the LNoS (Which wasn't their fault, seeing how they didn't know about Operation: RED FLAG). Maybe if ONI had told them, they would have refrained from attacking the LNoS and would have let the Spartan II's board it (I'm guessing they were gathering all the Spartans before actually performing the mission, hence them not knowing the Supercarrier was just waiting above the Viery territory.

I can see why they didn't tell anybody though, imagine.

ONI Staff: A large Covenant Capital Ship has been detected!
Keyes: LETS GO DESTROY IT!
Rest of the Navy: YES LETS GO!

Not only would they have lost a load of ships, but they would have faced the Fleet of Holy Respite (Or at least I think it was that one, not sure) whom jumped out of slipspace moments later after the bomb was detonated, it would have been a massacre.

  • 12.30.2011 11:42 AM PDT

Posted by: OrderedComa
And because I know you'll probably ignore it or just skim it

When have I -blam!- ignored your posts? If a post is directed at me, I sure as hell will read it, the fact that I don't reply doesn't means that your post was ignored. So what, you carefully explained to me why the ground battles in "Halo: The Fall of Reach" and "Halo: First Strike" were the most disappointing things since your son, mostly because they lacked of details and overall nothing made sense (at least according to you), and then I thought "maybe she isn't as stupid as I thought, who knows, she may have a future in my date book". Not that I actually stopped hating Halo: Reach, but because you may have a point. But haven't you guys actually thought that the focus of the book was about the Spartans and how humanity was losing the war? The planet Reach itself was only a plot device, it represented our stronghold, the heart of the UNSC. I sure as hell wouldn't believe that it fell in a single day, but it did, so many feelings found by the fact that we lost Reach, are we doomed? How is this possible? Thanks to Bungie, those feelings are completely lost. But the worst part is how -blam!- hypocrites those who support Reach can be, now with the new release of Halo Glasslands.

So, after reading your post TWICE, 'cause I couldn't believe most of the stuff you wrote, I must stress, can you seriously sleep at night without feeling like a complete idiot? Is this truly what you want to be completely canon in the Halo Universe? Why is nothing of this mentioned in "Halo: The Fall of Reach"? Not a single clue, even though Eric Nylund received the Halo Story Bible, and he decided not to include all this INCREDIBLY VALUABLE information. I've come to the conclusion that Eric Nylund is the true villain in here, just look at him! The true face of evil! I lost three men and seven got injured, I think one lost an arm, but they gave me all the information that I needed in order to expose this monster as the guy who ruined the Halo Universe by conveniently ignoring this part in the story and writing those horribly lame ground battles. He did it with the sole intention of making our lives harder and more horrible. Oh... wait, sorry, I got confused, you see, yesterday I played the Halo: Reach drinking game, it's quite easy, you just have to play the game or watch every cutscene in Youtube, and drink every time something makes no sense. Drank more than the body could resist, and confused myself with a novel I'm writing about a writer who gets the opportunity to write a novel about a game called "Olah", but he is evil, and wants to ruin the universe of the game. Sorry, Nylund is a cool guy though.

Anyways, Nylund received the Halo Story Bible, official material which was released before the game, and yet, decided not to include any of this. There are only two conclusions:

1. None of this existed.

2. Even he knew it was -blam!- stupid and decided not to include it in the novel. Which is actually possible.

And what about Joseph Staten? Was he aware that three years after his novel got released nothing would matter about it? He is a Bungie member after all, AND HE WROTE A NOVEL. Why would a Bungie member write a novel if games > novel? Did he know that some weird ancient A.I.s (seriously? SERIOUSLY?!? WHY BUNGIE, WHY?!?) were the real responsibles for contacting the Covenant? Did he wrote his novel already knowing this? And be careful with what you answer on this one, young lady.

Where was I? Oh yeah, you posted something about ONI, and then I posted that most of the Reach/Noble Team supporters were a bunch of -blam!- hypocrites. So you don't have a single problem with ONI being responsible for pretty much losing a planet which had a lot of valuable information, equipment, soldiers, ships, SMacs, and the billions of lives that were lost, because they were trying to get that Supercarrier in order to enter High Charity, capture a Prophet, and finally end this war. Were they aware of all this before they destroyed that Spire and the Supercarrier finally revealed itself? I guess so, because cloaking a -blam!- ship has to be the lamest, saddest, and most desperate excuse ever in order to hide a ship.

But now ONI is doing some weird stuff with the Elites now that the war is over, handling weapons to them, making them hate the Arbiter, I don't know, I haven't read the novel yet, but you guys won't shut the hell up of how random and dangerous ONI actions appear to be, and yet, you have no problem accepting that it was their fault for Reach to fell, oh no, you don't have a problem with that because NOW IT FITS WITH THE UNIVERSE, all forgiven Bungie, it was really a master plan, it only took 343i a year to finally reveal their grand scheme, congratulations.

So in case you ignore this important point of my post, as you constantly do, I gotta post this again: You guys have no problem with ONI being responsible for the Fall of Reach, and yet, constantly complain about Halo: Glasslands. Don't you -blam!- tell me that it's a completely different scenario, because it isn't, it's just as random and dangerous as luring the biggest covenant ship to date to a colonized planet, especially if that planet happens to contain a lot of valuable equipment which we could use in the war. Yes, the novel may suck because of Halsey and her new personality, and it doesn't helps how Karen (the girl I like has the exact same name :( ) writes, but in the end, I can't help but call you a bunch of hypocrites who just happen to accept the universe when it's convenient, especially if Bungie made the game, and yet, cry about this new novel. Just shut the hell up already.

And speaking of luring, didn't they know how dangerous it could be? I mean, what if the Covenant called for more reinforcements? You know, just like what happened in August 14th? Maybe that's the reason why they didn't told the UNSC of what was going on, so that the Covenant thought that Reach was another farmer colony planet and didn't called for reinforcements, but what are the odds? How well do they know the Covenant and their strategies? Also, how do they explain the way they lured the Covenant into Reach? Like, did they even decide where to locate them? Or they just happen to say "ONI did it, and that's it"?

Can't you see all the flaws in the -blam!- game? There's a lot of information, and yet, they decide to make this a character driven story, why? Why retcon everything? Why -blam!- everything up?!?

And just to prove that you constantly ignore my post when it's convenient, I already told you that I don't care if it's a fact or not, I don't care if you can explain to me all this crap, I don't care if this crap fits with the novels, it's -blam!- stupid because it was written by a guy who didn't care about the Universe. Marcus Lehto didn't care about the Universe of this game, they only wrote whatever they thought it would be cool, and left the fate of the game in 343i hands. They looked a way for all this to fit with the Universe, and congratulations, we got it, but I don't care, it won't remove all the stupidity of the Campaign. And yes, I said that they didn't respect the Universe because I refuse to believe that all this was written in the Halo Story Bible since Halo: CE, it just can't be. 20 bucks that your next post will only focus on this small section of my post, make your bets gentlemen!

I mean, part of the fleet arrived in August 14th, and then the rest on August 30th? Why? Kat already accepted defeat in New Alexandria, most of the UNSC was focusing on taking civilians and all they could out of the planet, they already knew Reach would fall, so why do we need the second half of the fleet? Oh yeah, because the novel said so, even though it is never said in the game that a second fleet arrived. This was made by the blind Bungie/Noble Team fanboys, and it fitted so well, that now it's part of the canon, silly me.

So they lured that giant ship to Reach in order to travel to High Charity and capture the prophet. Keyes was going to command that mission. Wait, so he didn't knew about the ship that would be used in order to capture a prophet? How can they plan this kind of mission and yet lack of the necessary resources in order to fulfill it? It's obvious that they came up with this plan because they couldn't defeat the Covenant, so what, they were going to wait for another few months or years until they got the ship and finally start the plan? What?!? I was under the impression that:

1. They already had the ship.

2. They were in the process of getting the ship.

And when I say "they were in the process of getting the ship", the last -blam!- thing that comes into my mind is to lure that ship to the planet, keep it a secret from everyone including the UNSC, and then give it to the Captain as a late Christmas present.

I mean, what was ONI trying to do? How were they planning to get that ship? By magic? Black Ops? We constantly see Reach in problems and yet, there are no solutions, that Supercarrier is a main threat to us, now I have to accept that ONI brought it in here, and that's it. No attempts to capture it, let them destroy the planet, IT FITS! BUNGIE HAS DONE IT AGAIN, GREATEST STORY EVER!

[Edited on 12.30.2011 3:02 PM PST]

  • 12.30.2011 2:15 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

There wasn't any attempts to capture because the Army decided it was a smart idea to destroy it (I totally would have done the same, considering how ONI kept the nature of RED FLAG a secret to them).

The thing is, most of the people that defend Reach find ourselves in a situation similar to the one you, the Reach haters are when it comes to Reach, but instead of bashing it or anything (at least I don't) we keep our criticism to ourselves instead of being all "GLASSLANDS SUCKS!1!!!one!"

But like I said in one of my first posts, the Covenant obviously were on Reach before attacking on the 30th of August, point being how they knew were the generators for the orbital guns were located and were all the high ranked members of the UNSC resided at (cause y'know, the Phantoms they sent obviously guessed where they had to go even though they had just jumped out of slipspace, am I right?).

The thing is, the way Nylund put it, the Covenant had this magic localization skills that were more than enough to make Reach fall in an hour or two. Why did the Air force do nothing to destroy the phantoms with their Skyhawks I shall never know.
I rather believe that ONI orchestrated the whole thing so they could steal the ship and have the plan go to hell when Noble Team destroyed the LNoS than to have the Covenant jump out of slipspace, have them magically know all the important places at Reach, have a bunch of Phantoms (Which most of them were destroyed by SMAC fire mind you) overwhelm the defenses of humanity's most heavily guarded planet as if it was a backwater colony like Harvest or Arcadia.

  • 12.30.2011 4:07 PM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
There wasn't any attempts to capture because the Army decided it was a smart idea to destroy it (I totally would have done the same, considering how ONI kept the nature of RED FLAG a secret to them).

It's still a problem that ONI kept everyone in the dark, especially if they lured that Supercarrier to their own planet. I mean, yes, if the Covenant appear on Reach, the first reaction of the UNSC would be to destroy the ship and all of the Covenant forces, I'm not trying to debate that, I'm trying to get an explanation of why wouldn't they tell them to capture the ship, receive help from the UNSC, I mean, this plan to capture the Prophet was in the book, it could work, but they lacked of a ship, how could they lack of a ship? Did ONI told them to wait? Someone said that the Spartans-II would hijack the ship, when? Master Chief tested his new armor in August 29th, 2552, were they planning on having that ship floating in the planet that long? Maybe even more? WHAT?!?

It still makes no sense that ONI wanted to keep all this a secret from the UNSC, especially if they are planning on ending this war using a Covenant Ship. By that time, they should already own it, or planning on stealing one. And again, why lure that Supercarrier into Reach? It makes no sense. Why did 343I felt like they needed to repair this and made everyone more stupid? Why not just do the most logical action and say:

"Bungie -blam!- it up, we will do our best not to make their mistakes".

I can assure you that if Halo: Reach was 343I first game, everyone would immediately hate the game, not even these explanations of the invasion would suffice. But because Bungie made the game, and 343I found a way for everything to fit, you guys are satisfied. Or am I supposed to believe that Bungie actually knew all this stuff? If that's the case, then why keep the fans in the dark for so long? Because they are no longer making the Halo games? Give me a -blam!- break. They still made the updates until July, so why not post an explanation of what's going on, like they did when they said that you wouldn't find Elites in the Campaign of Halo 3: ODST. I mean... WHY?!?

What happened to all "this is a reconstruction of the events", where nothing was really official? At least that way we could say that it was ONI propaganda. I'm so tired.

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
The thing is, most of the people that defend Reach find ourselves in a situation similar to the one you, the Reach haters are when it comes to Reach, but instead of bashing it or anything (at least I don't) we keep our criticism to ourselves instead of being all "GLASSLANDS SUCKS!1!!!one!"

Oh, great way to make us look like the bad guys. And that's far from truth by the way, I've seen Reach supporters attack the book with passion, because ONI is stupid. But if this can explain why the Campaign of Halo: Reach and all the plot holes, it's more than acceptable, IT'S GENIUS!

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
But like I said in one of my first posts, the Covenant obviously were on Reach before attacking on the 30th of August, point being how they knew were the generators for the orbital guns were located and were all the high ranked members of the UNSC resided at (cause y'know, the Phantoms they sent obviously guessed where they had to go even though they had just jumped out of slipspace, am I right?).

The thing is, the way Nylund put it, the Covenant had this magic localization skills that were more than enough to make Reach fall in an hour or two. Why did the Air force do nothing to destroy the phantoms with their Skyhawks I shall never know.
I rather believe that ONI orchestrated the whole thing so they could steal the ship and have the plan go to hell when Noble Team destroyed the LNoS than to have the Covenant jump out of slipspace, have them magically know all the important places at Reach, have a bunch of Phantoms (Which most of them were destroyed by SMAC fire mind you) overwhelm the defenses of humanity's most heavily guarded planet as if it was a backwater colony like Harvest or Arcadia.
As far as I know, the initial Covenant assault force suffered horrible losses, forcing them to change their strategy and attack the generators, I don't know, haven't read that novel in 5 years and I sure as hell won't read it right now just to read that "lame ground battle".

Everytime I post that Reach falling in a single day has a lot of meaning, especially on our fate, everyone immediately ignores this and posts "the ground battle was lame". Hasn't it occurred to you guys that Reach was meant to fall in a single day? It's like if you thought "oh, I bet Bungie wanted Reach to survive and give the Covenant a real battle, but Nylund arrived and he changed our minds, so this game is our revenge!". Reach was meant to fall in a day, no matter how well explained the ground battles were, -blam!- deal with it and stop blaming it on Nylund. Seriously, it's getting very annoying that you can't accept that Reach was meant to fall in a single day, it wasn't Nylund's fault.

And if you are not willing to accept it, then feel free to choose any of these two:

1. Bungie's Fall of Reach: The fight lasted for a month because both factions were -blam!- stupid and couldn't do a thing right.

2. 343I Fall of Reach: ONI lured a giant Supercarrier to Reach, but refused to ask the UNSC for help in order to capture it, dooming everyone in the planet.

[Edited on 12.30.2011 4:40 PM PST]

  • 12.30.2011 4:38 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

I am loving your points Juan, could you link me to Taylor being dissatisfied with reach? I would love to use that on waypoint and in the flood. Also, The Space battle lasted about 2 hours and is what is referenced by "Reach fell in a day" the ground engagements lasted weeks. I think Bungie should have focused on that area instead of what they did.

  • 12.30.2011 4:42 PM PDT

I think he's black, just saying

  • 12.30.2011 5:36 PM PDT

New Marathon? Thanks Bungie!

perhaps u ought to be writing for Halo Nation?

  • 12.30.2011 8:08 PM PDT

Posted by: Juen Teran
When have I -blam!- ignored your posts? If a post is directed at me, I sure as hell will read it, the fact that I don't reply doesn't means that your post was ignored. So what, you carefully explained to me why the ground battles in "Halo: The Fall of Reach" and "Halo: First Strike" were the most disappointing things since your son, mostly because they lacked of details and overall nothing made sense (at least according to you), and then I thought "maybe she isn't as stupid as I thought, who knows, she may have a future in my date book". Not that I actually stopped hating Halo: Reach, but because you may have a point. But haven't you guys actually thought that the focus of the book was about the Spartans and how humanity was losing the war? The planet Reach itself was only a plot device, it represented our stronghold, the heart of the UNSC. I sure as hell wouldn't believe that it fell in a single day, but it did, so many feelings found by the fact that we lost Reach, are we doomed? How is this possible? Thanks to Bungie, those feelings are completely lost. But the worst part is how -blam!- hypocrites those who support Reach can be, now with the new release of Halo Glasslands.


Sorry, I wasn't meaning to imply that you would be ignoring my whole post or anything like that (I don't really care one way or the other if I'm replied to or not). Many people (myself included) tend to give off the vibe in their posts that they're ignoring points the other person raised, or they're just getting the gist of it because they quickly skim through it (part of the reason I wait a while to reply to a post is to avoid that as best I can). But yeah, sorry I made you think that.

*shrug* I never really got that feeling, it always felt silly to me and a bit unbelievable. And, granted it wasn't too long before Reach came out that I read TFoR for the first time, but I did read the book before we knew anything significant about the story or dates in the game. Of course, the book was primarily about the Spartans and giving the other characters in CE a bit of backstory, but I always felt that the Battle of Reach should have been made more significant in the book as it is where the book gets its name from after all :/ Most of my little issues with the book I'm willing to mostly forgive though since it was the first one and developed before the Halo story really had any truly significant depth, I have more of a problem when some of the fans (not saying you necessarily) start proclaiming everything about TFoR as gospel and can't possibly have any faults whatsoever >_>

Anyways, Nylund received the Halo Story Bible, official material which was released before the game, and yet, decided not to include any of this. There are only two conclusions:

1. None of this existed.

2. Even he knew it was -blam!- stupid and decided not to include it in the novel. Which is actually possible


I sleep just fine, thank you for your concern :P
You do know that universe grow and change over time right, we didn't know about Grace, Li, or many of the other Spartans in First Strike at the time that TFoR came out and they weren't mentioned in it, yet they appear in First Strike. I would think that the same thing applies to the some of the stuff in Reach as well. And why would everything that's in the HSB today have existed at the time that TFoR was first published? I'm writer, so when I speak about the evolution of the story process I'm speaking mainly from experience, my main story universe has changed immensely since I first thought it up 6+ years ago. Stories change (to a certain extent) the more they're around and they most certainly evolve. New details about it come to light that seemingly change everything but really just give a more wider view of the whole picture. And this most certainly holds true with Halo and TFoR.

So, I think the answer to your question in that little blurb I quoted would be option number one. Most of the information in Reach probably did not exist at the time that TFoR was written or was simply not developed enough to be included in the book at the time it was written. And none of the writers ever receive the whole HSB, except for maybe Nylund when he wrote TFoR when as there wouldn't have been too much information for the Halo story yet, I mean honestly, why would Bungie/343i do that? Speaking from writer experience again, I most certainly wouldn't share my whole batch of notes and ideas about my story world (except one or two people who are my closest friends and I really trust), if I ever shared it with someone outside my circle of trust it would only be very stripped down and contain the most relevant data that the person I shared it with would need to know.

Because the novels expand the universe, just because the games are the highest source of canon material does not mean that the books automatically don't matter and will be completely dropped or discarded at the drop of a hat. And how exactly does having an ancient omniscient AI council of vagueness (which I do not put much stock in as the data pads sound a bit like the ravings of a madman and we don't know anything that whole deal yet, I'm playing the "wait and see" game on this issue) disqualify Contact Harvest from anything? An AI can't mess around (or have someone do it for him) with the Slipspace equipment/nav data on a cargo-bot to have it wind up in the path of the Covenant and lead them to Harvest?

So in case you ignore this important point of my post, as you constantly do, I gotta post this again: You guys have no problem with ONI being responsible for the Fall of Reach, and yet, constantly complain about Halo: Glasslands. Don't you -blam!- tell me that it's a completely different scenario, because it isn't, it's just as random and dangerous as luring the biggest covenant ship to date to a colonized planet, especially if that planet happens to contain a lot of valuable equipment which we could use in the war. Yes, the novel may suck because of Halsey and her new personality, and it doesn't helps how Karen (the girl I like has the exact same name :( ) writes, but in the end, I can't help but call you a bunch of hypocrites who just happen to accept the universe when it's convenient, especially if Bungie made the game, and yet, cry about this new novel. Just shut the hell up already.

Actually for the record I don't perticularly care about what's happening right now in Glasslands, I'm not not one of the people who's been complaining about that aspect. And I haven't read the book either, but I've really liked what I've read so far, I'm only somewhat iffy on the subject of Halsey, but I'm not making judgements about anything yet because I've not completed the book. I don't really gripe or complain much about what I don't like about a story universe, I mean sure, I'll state what I don't like on occasion, but I won't ever really -blam!- about it much. I'll accept whatever direction a story takes no matter how grudgingly, after all, it's not my story. So yeah, you won't ever see me really complaining about Glasslands or anything else in Halo. If asked for my opinion on a matter, I will give it, but I'll do my level best to be reasonable about both my likes and dislikes and listing/explaining them. I'll join Cobra, Snake, and DaeFaron on the subject of Reach, but we part ways on the subject of Glasslands, I think a lot of the hate it's getting is as silly and/or outrageous as the sort of flak that get's thrown Reach's way.

The Data Drop wasn't talking about anything in the past tense, it was all future tense, IE, "this is what I will do". Parangosky didn't say how she was going to get the Covenant lured to Reach, just that they would be and that Reach would be the sacrificial lamb for RED FLAG. Which by the way was never more than a contingency/possible plan (think like Order 66 in Revenge of the Sith) up until Parangosky decided to use it. And Stanforth was fiercely opposed to the plan and only grudgingly gave in and went along with the Hell--blam!- of ONI's plan. So yes, someone at least was smart and knew that the plan was not so smart, at least using Reach as the lamb to be slaughtered.

So they lured that giant ship to Reach in order to travel to High Charity and capture the prophet. Keyes was going to command that mission. Wait, so he didn't knew about the ship that would be used in order to capture a prophet? How can they plan this kind of mission and yet lack of the necessary resources in order to fulfill it? It's obvious that they came up with this plan because they couldn't defeat the Covenant, so what, they were going to wait for another few months or years until they got the ship and finally start the plan? What?!? I was under the impression that:

1. They already had the ship.

2. They were in the process of getting the ship.


Keyes did know about the plan, maybe not the exact specifics (I'm sure ONI would have told him at least something if the LNoS had not been destroyed by Noble). Read the addendum or whatever it is at the end of First Strike (or maybe it's TFoR, I don't know which), Keyes talks about knowing that the Covenant is at Reach and keeping it secret from the rest of the Autumn's crew.

  • 12.31.2011 2:28 PM PDT

After reading, I like him just a little more than I used to.

  • 12.31.2011 4:05 PM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa
*shrug* I never really got that feeling, it always felt silly to me and a bit unbelievable.

Maybe because it's unbelievable to think that Reach, the heart of the UNSC, could fall in a single day. Think about, all the equipment, all the soldiers, the Super Macs, the home of the Spartan-II soldiers. What we didn't know is that we would face a fleet of 300+ Covenant ships. The new "Halo: The Fall of Reach" book says that the fleet has 700 ships, which I try not to take that seriously. I mean, Lord Hood obviously said that line in Halo 2 as an exaggeration, I don't know who had the brilliant idea of taking that statement literally, but... well, yeah, I don't think about that too much.

It's not really silly to think that Reach fell in a single day, especially if your best defense is "the ground battles were lame". Now, that is actually a silly defense, because is like blaming it all on Nylund, no matter how well described the battles were, Reach was meant to fall in a single day, and by saying that Nylund did a bad job at describing those battles, you are missing the point of the novel.

As soon as they mention the Covenant in the novel, we are constanly reminded that we are losing our planets, billions of lives are being lost, and the Covenant have way more victories in the war, and if we don't think of anything soon, the human race may lose the war and finally face extinction. Hard to believe, isn't it? At the beginning of the novel, the Spartan-II Program was created as a response for the Insurrectionist Movement. And out of nowhere, this Covenant Empire appear, and from creating stability in the galaxy, we are now facing extinction, the plot changes dramatically as we read. The fact that we are constantly reminded of why the Covenant are winning this war is because we haven't seen the worst of them. You think that the plan of capturing a prophet came out of nowhere? They thought of that plan because it was the only way to finally stop this war, otherwise, extinction was a fact, it was only a matter of time.

Yes, the name of the novel implies that Reach will fall, oh no, spoilers ahead! But while most of us expect 300 pages of war and details of how the planet is slowly losing, we are given a origin story about the Spartans, about this war, about humanity! I constantly forgot that Reach was meant to fall as I was reading, the novel was pretty entertainning, and out of nowhere, the Covenant finally appear and start doing business. I gotta stress this once again, no matter how horribly written were those ground battles, this was meant to happen, Reach was meant to lose this fight, end of story, stop blaming in on Nylund, I doubt he was happy writing that Halsey journal, but you know, you gotta do it.

Remember when Nylund praised Bungie because "they took the Universe seriously". You know, instead of giving to the fans a lame artbook or boring crap, they were actually taking the time to create that Halsey Journal, which would expand the Universe, and even the future of the franchise. Yeah, when we thought that Bungie cared for the fans. When we praised Bungie as the guys who cared, who took the novels seriously... *sigh*...

At the end of the novel, you can't help but wonder "what's next?". What's going to happen to humanity, how long will it take the Covenant to finally find Earth? Will we succeed? It's just a horrible feeling of loss, the planet that represented our might, against a giant fleet of Covenant, no doubt about that, but what's left? What can we do? It ends with a powerful note, a bittersweet ending with an unclear future.

Posted by: OrderedComa
You do know that universe grow and change over time right, we didn't know about Grace, Li, or many of the other Spartans in First Strike at the time that TFoR came out and they weren't mentioned in it, yet they appear in First Strike. I would think that the same thing applies to the some of the stuff in Reach as well. And why would everything that's in the HSB today have existed at the time that TFoR was first published?
AT LAST! Finally you accept that none of this crap was intended to exist when the Halo Universe was created. Sorry, can't help but feel joy that you finally said this, in the past you would constantly counter it "how do you know", but that lame excuse has finally disappeared from your posts, I'm so happy!

Were was I, oh yeah, I'm aware that the Halo Universe has been expanded in these last 10 years. For example, I remember that the Elites were seen for the first time during the Fall of Reach, after more than 20 years of war, these guys finally revealed themselves. But then I played Halo Wars, and it appears that they already knew about the Elites, 20 years before the Halo event, so what gives? They retconned this, but how much did it affect us? I can live with this, it isn't that much of a change. The same can be applied with the Brutes... I guess? I mean, in First Strike, they said that it was the first time the Chief had seen a Brute, and yet, these ape bastards appeared for the first time in Harvest. Again, not much of a big deal, it's not what I would call disrespectful to the fans. So yeah, I hope that statement clarifies we are aware that the Universe grows, and there must be some changes THAT WE CAN ACCEPT. We aren't close minded and complain about everything, we just happen to like the Halo Universe, and after watching this new direction we were shocked. We care about the stuff we like, and the general consensus of Halo: Reach is "it's retarded!" You think that I constantly post these long ass posts just to annoy you guys? Hasn't it occured to you that I like the Halo Universe and just express my frustration of this horrible Campaign? If you guys choose to be offended by my post, that's your problem. But no, that Juan guys is a -blam!- idiot, let's keep misspelling his name, it'll show him that we, the Bungie/Noble Team supporters, are serious business!

Quoting Harry Shearer, voice of Principal Skinner in The Simpsons:

"That's so wrong. You're taking something that an audience has built eight years or nine years of investment in and just tossed it in the trash can for no good reason, for a story we've done before with other characters. It's so arbitrary and gratuitous, and it's disrespectful to the audience."

Posted by: OrderedComa
And how exactly does having an ancient omniscient AI council of vagueness (which I do not put much stock in as the data pads sound a bit like the ravings of a madman and we don't know anything that whole deal yet, I'm playing the "wait and see" game on this issue) disqualify Contact Harvest from anything? An AI can't mess around (or have someone do it for him) with the Slipspace equipment/nav data on a cargo-bot to have it wind up in the path of the Covenant and lead them to Harvest?

Because they just happen to create an absolute counsil of ancient A.I.s that has direct control of all the Universe. It's stupid, it's lame, it's just a sad attempt to... I don't even know what they were planning by creating this counsil. I just hope that it is never elaborated in the future and just happens to be an easter egg.

There goes Halsey's brilliant idea for creating the Spartan-II Program, that fateful encounter those Jackals had with that ship that lead them to Harvest. Hell, they wanted to contact the Flood? WHAT?!? So am I supposed to believe that if the Flood appeared in Reach, you guys wouldn't mind because this ancient counsil already knew about them?!? WHY?!?

Posted by: OrderedComa
Parangosky didn't say how she was going to get the Covenant lured to Reach, just that they would be and that Reach would be the sacrificial lamb for RED FLAG.

Which makes no sense, why Reach? Why not Coral? Onyx? Any other "unimportant" planet, I mean, assuming that I found this plan acceptable to begin with. The Covenant can ask for reinforcements at any time, so again, why Reach?

Why sacrifice this extremely valuable planet filled with soldiers, valuable equipment, THE SPARTANS-II, ships, vehicles, you name it! It's just too -blam!- stupid for me to accept this. Hey 343I, thanks for making everyone more stupid, just accept that Halo: Reach happened and that's it, if you never explain it we understand why, don't ruin more the Universe of the game. Halo Legends, those comics no one cares about, all forgiven, just stop expanding the importance of this -blam!- game, we all hated it!

Posted by: OrderedComa
think like Order 66 in Revenge of the Sith

George couldn't come with something intelligent to remove all the Jedis from the Universe, and created that stupid order. Oh, and just happens to be 66 because it reminds us of that evil number, how creative!

Posted by: OrderedComa
So yes, someone at least was smart and knew that the plan was not so smart, at least using Reach as the lamb to be slaughtered.

So what if someone opposed to the plan, it happened, there's still no difference in the end. They can add as many elements of people opposing to this plan, but the fact that it happened makes it unimportant to me.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Keyes did know about the plan, maybe not the exact specifics (I'm sure ONI would have told him at least something if the LNoS had not been destroyed by Noble).
The problem is that the ship had already 3 weeks in Reach, what were they planning to do? Gosh, nothing in Halo: Reach makes sense.343I tries to repair it and now it's our own damn fault that Reach fell.

What about the UNSC Iroquois, wasn't that the reason the Covenant found Reach? At least that made sense.

[Edited on 01.01.2012 2:00 PM PST]

  • 12.31.2011 5:40 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Reach Falling in a short amount of time had significance. It showed the might of the covenant and how even at our peak we still couldn't match them. The game was horrable because it tried to equalize that event.


Coma, Not to call you out but i feel like you have a different perspective due to you being new to halo. It is going to be different for you to recently read the books then by the game then it is for us growing up with a certain mindset.

The Covenant have a arrogant and dogmatic approach to war. They don't improve upon their techniques because that is heresy, would be stating the enemy is worthy of their might. Which is why the covenant acting slightly smart for once created such a shock.


If A single CSO class ship can siege and entire planet, why didn't they just create a fleet of them an exterminate humanity? There are Hundreds Of ships that size and of simalr class in orbit above High charity, and we know that is only a defensive fleet created during war times (Contact Harvest IIRC).
So why couldn't they have taken 50 or so ships and rampage humanity? If they have Camo or some sort of Advanced stealth tech then why haven't the been using it the entire time? You could argue that this fits in with their dogmatic approach, but the issue is that the tactic is too smart for them despite it being executed poorly.

Reach shattered Both Aspects of the Factions. The dogmatic Covenant was changed to "stupid yet clever" and the UNSC was just changed into idiots. The Data Pads try to make sense of Reach but the Data Drops is only 343's attempt at mending that failure. Why would you try such an operation on your military stronghold of all places? It makes no sense,especially when we later learn that ONI had already been to High Charity atleast once.

I just Find it Interesting how They stated they wouldn't do a halo movie "unless it is perfect" yet they messed up reach.

  • 12.31.2011 8:15 PM PDT

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