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  • Subject: Halsey in Glasslands
Subject: Halsey in Glasslands

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

I finished Glasslands recently and am wondering what you guys think of Halsey's portrayal by Travis in the book.

I for one cannot believe the genuineness of Halsey and Mendez's quarrel. Yes, Halsey kidnapped kids against their will and turned them into soldiers, but Mendez stood by while hundreds of children were sent on suicide missions; they were treated as disposable infantry. At least Halsey preserved her Spartans out of compassion if not guilt. Mendez was in no position to get on his moral high horse in the Dyson Sphere.

As for Parangosky, it seems odd that she would be enraged with Halsey for cloning. If Maggie was actually trying to be portrayed as a somewhat moral character, than cloning seems like it would be more moral then letting the parents wonder what happened to their kids for the rest of their lives, and Halsey even explains this, yet for someone such as the head of ONI, Maggie was pretty illogical about it.

I liked the book overall though. Personally though, I would have found it immensely amusing if Halsey put Vaz in his place since Vaz had no idea about the context of her work.

[Edited on 12.30.2011 1:33 AM PST]

  • 12.30.2011 1:32 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

That sums halsey up.

I find it funny that the elites respected the grunts alot more after their last rebellion, they put them in lances and even trained them in combat. Yet Humanity beats them in a war and we get no respect whatsoever, that is not lining up with what was established.

  • 12.30.2011 1:47 AM PDT

Posted by: ElementalRunner

Posted by: Commander Stroll
Still using a pump-action shotgun over 500 years in the future I see.

omg not realistic stop game production plz


Posted by: grey101
That sums halsey up.

I find it funny that the elites respected the grunts alot more after their last rebellion, they put them in lances and even trained them in combat. Yet Humanity beats them in a war and we get no respect whatsoever, that is not lining up with what was established.


Humanity did not beat the Sangheili in the war....we won that war because the Elites made a temporary alliance with us. Without them we would have been either decimated at Earth, or our last ships would have been beaten by the Loyalist fleet at the Ark.

EDIT: Unless you meant Humanity beating the Grunts in the war. Which I still don't think the Elites would regard as amazing.

[Edited on 12.30.2011 1:55 AM PST]

  • 12.30.2011 1:54 AM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

I think Travis' obsession with writing for IPs she's not a fan of is not compatible with writing for Halo. Having a slight bias towards certain characters is better than building their characters while being ignorant of their backgrounds.

  • 12.30.2011 1:54 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: CoolCJ24

Posted by: grey101
That sums halsey up.

I find it funny that the elites respected the grunts alot more after their last rebellion, they put them in lances and even trained them in combat. Yet Humanity beats them in a war and we get no respect whatsoever, that is not lining up with what was established.


Humanity did not beat the Sangheili in the war....we won that war because the Elites made a temporary alliance with us. Without them we would have been either decimated at Earth, or our last ships would have been beaten by the Loyalist fleet at the Ark.

EDIT: Unless you meant Humanity beating the Grunts in the war. Which I still don't think the Elites would regard as amazing.


From the stuff Glasslands introduced it doesn't seem like ONI was worried about losing earth whatsoever. The point is that we still deserve some respect which isn't being given.

  • 12.30.2011 2:05 AM PDT

Posted by: ElementalRunner

Posted by: Commander Stroll
Still using a pump-action shotgun over 500 years in the future I see.

omg not realistic stop game production plz


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: CoolCJ24

Posted by: grey101
That sums halsey up.

I find it funny that the elites respected the grunts alot more after their last rebellion, they put them in lances and even trained them in combat. Yet Humanity beats them in a war and we get no respect whatsoever, that is not lining up with what was established.


Humanity did not beat the Sangheili in the war....we won that war because the Elites made a temporary alliance with us. Without them we would have been either decimated at Earth, or our last ships would have been beaten by the Loyalist fleet at the Ark.

EDIT: Unless you meant Humanity beating the Grunts in the war. Which I still don't think the Elites would regard as amazing.


From the stuff Glasslands introduced it doesn't seem like ONI was worried about losing earth whatsoever. The point is that we still deserve some respect which isn't being given.

I reckon it's a pride thing. The Elites aren't giving respect because they know that we at least have all the skills to start rebuilding our colonies, whilst they can't even get their home planet in check.

Thus where respect is necessary, they won't give it through jealousy.

  • 12.30.2011 2:09 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

I know that and have been advocating that. I feel like that is an extremely weak part on karen.

  • 12.30.2011 2:16 AM PDT

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If you're reading this, you need to stop stalking me. If you can't stop stalking me, you might as well go here.

I think the potential to reflect upon Mendez's involvement in the Spartan programs was there, it's just that there wasn't a proper character present to call him out on such transgressions. The Spartans sure as hell weren't going to do it. Sure, Halsey had an idea of what the S-III program's M.O. was, but did anyone ever explicitly tell her what had been going on? (Legit question; I don't remember and I don't have the books on me at the time I'm writing this.)

I wrote a theory (that was ignored) a while back trying to explain why Mendez would react in such a way given his involvement. It's not so much what Halsey did, it's just that, in Mendez's eyes, she's rationalizing it with the whole "for the greater good" mentality. If Mendez had the same insight into Halsey's thoughts that we, the readers have, then he'd probably be singing a different tune.

In short, while Mendez probably hates himself for the things he's done over the last several decades and is likely still coming to terms with it, he sees Halsey as this heartless monster because she seems to think her actions are justified. In return, he lashes out at her, whether it be with personal insults or a hypocritical blame game.

Parangosky, on the other hand, I feel hates her for the exact same reason. Aside from the obvious power struggle what with Halsey doing certain things without permission, Parangosky is disgusted by what she sees as weakness in Halsey. Margaret seems a bit more comfortable with her actions, on the extreme end of the "greater good" camp that Mendez sees in Halsey. The Admiral saw the clones as a way for Halsey to cope with her actions, and I think she considers her weak for it.

If Mendez were in a position of power similar to Halsey's, I like to think he and Admiral Parangosky would butt heads even worse.

What I've been trying to say since Glasslands came out.

  • 12.30.2011 3:44 AM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: CoolCJ24

Posted by: grey101
That sums halsey up.

I find it funny that the elites respected the grunts a lot more after their last rebellion, they put them in lances and even trained them in combat. Yet Humanity beats them in a war and we get no respect whatsoever, that is not lining up with what was established.


Humanity did not beat the Sangheili in the war....we won that war because the Elites made a temporary alliance with us. Without them we would have been either decimated at Earth, or our last ships would have been beaten by the Loyalist fleet at the Ark.

EDIT: Unless you meant Humanity beating the Grunts in the war. Which I still don't think the Elites would regard as amazing.

One of the Assembly Data Pads suggest that the Assembly was manipulating events behind the scenes in an effort to drag the war out longer. IIRC, their reasoning was based around technology advancement. It may have been possible that the war would have been ended much sooner in favor of humanity.

  • 12.30.2011 4:31 AM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein


Posted by: Primo84
I think the potential to reflect upon Mendez's involvement in the Spartan programs was there, it's just that there wasn't a proper character present to call him out on such transgressions. The Spartans sure as hell weren't going to do it. Sure, Halsey had an idea of what the S-III program's M.O. was, but did anyone ever explicitly tell her what had been going on? (Legit question; I don't remember and I don't have the books on me at the time I'm writing this.)

I wrote a theory (that was ignored) a while back trying to explain why Mendez would react in such a way given his involvement. It's not so much what Halsey did, it's just that, in Mendez's eyes, she's rationalizing it with the whole "for the greater good" mentality. If Mendez had the same insight into Halsey's thoughts that we, the readers have, then he'd probably be singing a different tune.

In short, while Mendez probably hates himself for the things he's done over the last several decades and is likely still coming to terms with it, he sees Halsey as this heartless monster because she seems to think her actions are justified. In return, he lashes out at her, whether it be with personal insults or a hypocritical blame game.

Parangosky, on the other hand, I feel hates her for the exact same reason. Aside from the obvious power struggle what with Halsey doing certain things without permission, Parangosky is disgusted by what she sees as weakness in Halsey. Margaret seems a bit more comfortable with her actions, on the extreme end of the "greater good" camp that Mendez sees in Halsey. The Admiral saw the clones as a way for Halsey to cope with her actions, and I think she considers her weak for it.

If Mendez were in a position of power similar to Halsey's, I like to think he and Admiral Parangosky would butt heads even worse.

What I've been trying to say since Glasslands came out.


Interesting. I will read it later on. I am probably also going to reread the sections where Mendez is quarreling with Halsey to note what he was saying specifically.

  • 12.30.2011 12:34 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: CoolCJ24

Posted by: grey101
That sums halsey up.

I find it funny that the elites respected the grunts alot more after their last rebellion, they put them in lances and even trained them in combat. Yet Humanity beats them in a war and we get no respect whatsoever, that is not lining up with what was established.


Humanity did not beat the Sangheili in the war....we won that war because the Elites made a temporary alliance with us. Without them we would have been either decimated at Earth, or our last ships would have been beaten by the Loyalist fleet at the Ark.

EDIT: Unless you meant Humanity beating the Grunts in the war. Which I still don't think the Elites would regard as amazing.


From the stuff Glasslands introduced it doesn't seem like ONI was worried about losing earth whatsoever. The point is that we still deserve some respect which isn't being given.


It's because we're their equals and more. Unggoy never have any hope of surpassing Sangheili culture, but we're quickly rising to a position where we'd be able to go against them and win.

  • 12.30.2011 12:38 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Wolverfrog
That sums halsey up.

I find it funny that the elites respected the grunts alot more after their last rebellion, they put them in lances and even trained them in combat. Yet Humanity beats them in a war and we get no respect whatsoever, that is not lining up with what was established.

[/quote]
Humanity did not beat the Sangheili in the war....we won that war because the Elites made a temporary alliance with us. Without them we would have been either decimated at Earth, or our last ships would have been beaten by the Loyalist fleet at the Ark.

EDIT: Unless you meant Humanity beating the Grunts in the war. Which I still don't think the Elites would regard as amazing.[/quote]

From the stuff Glasslands introduced it doesn't seem like ONI was worried about losing earth whatsoever. The point is that we still deserve some respect which isn't being given. [/quote]

It's because we're their equals and more. Unggoy never have any hope of surpassing Sangheili culture, but we're quickly rising to a position where we'd be able to go against them and win.


But again (From a warrior aspect) that wouldn't reduce them to having a childish hate towards us for "being better". Nor would any of this phase them whatsoever.

And i appreciated that my posts aren't being stated as "ignorant" or "you don't understand the book".

  • 12.30.2011 12:41 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101Nor would any of this phase them whatsoever.

I think it would. Look at the Jiralhanae; a species arguably less intelligent and capable than the Sangheili, but even so they challenged their place in the world and so a massive hatred for the Jiralhanae arose. The only reason they deferred to the San 'Shyuum was due to subjugation, religious adulation, followed by their honour being appealed to by the Sangheili being appointed the sword and shield of the Covenant; as soon as their status as the Prophets' protectors was taken away from them, all that deference ceased to exist.

They're completely obsessed with honour and competition -- their places in society are determined by how many kills they've made, their names don't get the honourific '-ee' suffix until they've served in the army.

Humanity isn't just challenging their place like the Jiralhanae did -- we're outright poised to topple them, and there's nothing they can do about it. And they know there are very few humans in the galaxy who wouldn't be glad to see them all dead.

Not to mention there's an entire generation (thirty years) who since the moment of birth/childhood have been told the humans are vile, evil heretics and have done little else but consistently kill every one of us they come across. Even when they learn the truth, that indoctination will stick.

In this light, their hatred is completely understandable and in fact, realistic. Any Sangheili who doesn't loathe a human is an anomaly, really.

  • 12.30.2011 12:49 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Good points. But it doesn't make sense that they would even allow some brutes on their homeplanet after the massacre at High charity! Brutes ate the councilors, why would they pick that over humans that fought with them in the final hours?

  • 12.30.2011 12:55 PM PDT

Wasn't it said that some Jiralhanae always stayed loyal to the Sangheili? I think some were already on Sanghelios, detached from the tension and political conflict of High Charity and the Covenant army. Thus when the Great Schism occured, the Sangheili had no reason to be in anger with these Jiralhanae.

As opposed to humans, who were never ingrained into their society. Phillips is a positive start, though. Incidentally, him being on Sanghelios was one of my favourite parts of the novel, along with the meeting between Hood and the Arbiter (loved how Vaz remarked that it was one of the most significant events that would probably ever occur in human history and no one but they would know the exact truth of what happened, appealed to the History nerd within me.)

  • 12.30.2011 1:01 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Wolverfrog
Wasn't it said that some Jiralhanae always stayed loyal to the Sangheili? I think some were already on Sanghelios, detached from the tension and political conflict of High Charity and the Covenant army. Thus when the Great Schism occured, the Sangheili had no reason to be in anger with these Jiralhanae.

As opposed to humans, who were never ingrained into their society. Phillips is a positive start, though. Incidentally, him being on Sanghelios was one of my favourite parts of the novel, along with the meeting between Hood and the Arbiter (loved how Vaz remarked that it was one of the most significant events that would probably ever occur in human history and no one but they would know the exact truth of what happened, appealed to the History nerd within me.)



Attached to society or not they could state the same for majority of the humans. Not every single human is bitter about it, regardless of the war just ending, some would just want to leave it alone.

Yes, i loved that part also. The book i don't have an issue with, it is more about how things were done and what was introduced. It seems like 343 is jumping for halo 4.

  • 12.30.2011 1:06 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101
Attached to society or not they could state the same for majority of the humans. Not every single human is bitter about it, regardless of the war just ending, some would just want to leave it alone.


Glasslands:

He's a very nice man, but he's like almost every other human - most of us hate you because you've tried to wipe out our entire species. There's only three human beings who'd be sorry to see you go extinct, in fact, and that would be me and my two research assistants, because we study Sangheili.

Now that's obviously hyperbole intended to coerce Jul, but it still resonates -- that passage is a conduit for Traviss to give the reader exposition on humanity's opinion of the Sangheili.

[Edited on 12.30.2011 1:14 PM PST]

  • 12.30.2011 1:13 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

My biggest gripe by far in the novel is ONI supporting 'Telcam over Thel. Osman says they are supporting 'Telcam because they don't believe Thel will survive the turmoil and they want to be friendly with the new leader when the dust settles. As Wolver said, there are very few Sangheili who like humans.

But did ONI ever consider the fact that the reason Thel might not survive is because ONI is supporting 'Telcam? As far as possible threats go he is fairly small. A single citadel of followers and next to no air support in fact. But when ONI starts supplying him he suddenly becomes much more dangerous. ONI now has a powerful, human-hating, religious Sangheili in a dangerous position.

If ONI decided to supply Thel and his followers with weapons and ships instead 'Telcam would have next to nothing and Thel would be the powerful one. If ONI backed Thel from the beginning they needn't have got all nervous when 'Telcam shows up bating for blood. Thel deals with 'Telcam and humanity now has a powerful Sangheili as their friend. Thel is now grateful to ONI because they helped him deal with 'Telcam and everything is much better all around. The best part is the fact that Thel can feel something other than hatred towards humanity.

  • 12.30.2011 1:13 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Wolverfrog

Posted by: grey101
Attached to society or not they could state the same for majority of the humans. Not every single human is bitter about it, regardless of the war just ending, some would just want to leave it alone.


Glasslands:

He's a very nice man, but he's like almost every other human - most of us hate you because you've tried to wipe out our entire species. There's only three human beings who'd be sorry to see you go extinct, in fact, and that would be me and my two research assistants, because we study Sangheili.

Now that's obviously hyperbole intended to coerce Jul, but it still resonates -- that passage is a conduit for Traviss to give the reader exposition on humanity's opinion of the Sangheili.


I understand but like he says, most not all. Just like the brute situation.

  • 12.30.2011 1:16 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Wolverfrog

Posted by: grey101
Attached to society or not they could state the same for majority of the humans. Not every single human is bitter about it, regardless of the war just ending, some would just want to leave it alone.


Glasslands:

He's a very nice man, but he's like almost every other human - most of us hate you because you've tried to wipe out our entire species. There's only three human beings who'd be sorry to see you go extinct, in fact, and that would be me and my two research assistants, because we study Sangheili.

Now that's obviously hyperbole intended to coerce Jul, but it still resonates -- that passage is a conduit for Traviss to give the reader exposition on humanity's opinion of the Sangheili.


I understand but like he says, most not all. Just like the brute situation.


He wouldn't say 'all' because he himself doesn't hate the Sangheili, but that's only because he studies them and we get the impression in the novel that Phillips is a little bit crazy when it comes to such matters.

I wouldn't be surprised if practically every single human hates the Sangheili. They can be told about alliances on far off worlds all they want (which is in itself unlikely, I highly doubt knowledge of the Forerunners and their Halo array is wanted to be general knowledge by Section II), at the end of the day there's still a trail of glassed planets left in the Sangheili's wake, and that's all that matters.

  • 12.30.2011 1:21 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

The Jiralhanae are no threat to the Sangheili, as another poster has already said. There are some Sangheili who are far more pragmatic than others, and they don't see using Jiralhanae for hard labor as heretical as it only makes their lives easier. On the other hand, the same Sangheili despise humans, but that is more out of the fact that they recognize that humans have the capability of toppling the Sangheili's dominance.

I'd like to focus the discussion in this thread to Halsey in particular guys. I personally did not find any problem with the other portions logically, but I can see how others do. To my knowledge, there are other threads discussing the Sangheili's and ONI's actions.

  • 12.30.2011 1:49 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Plasma Prestige
The Jiralhanae are no threat to the Sangheili,.


Your jumping the gun there, i am sure they attacked them at the end of Glasslands


  • 12.30.2011 1:56 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Plasma Prestige
The Jiralhanae are no threat to the Sangheili,.


Your jumping the gun there, i am sure they attacked them at the end of Glasslands



I mean on a broad scale. One-to-one definitely, but the Sangheili are logically much more concerned about humans who are much more devilish in terms of their politics.

  • 12.30.2011 2:04 PM PDT

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Posted by: Wolverfrog
Posted by: grey101Nor would any of this phase them whatsoever.
I think it would. Look at the Jiralhanae; a species arguably less intelligent and capable than the Sangheili, but even so they challenged their place in the world and so a massive hatred for the Jiralhanae arose. The only reason they deferred to the San 'Shyuum was due to subjugation, religious adulation, followed by their honour being appealed to by the Sangheili being appointed the sword and shield of the Covenant; as soon as their status as the Prophets' protectors was taken away from them, all that deference ceased to exist.

They're completely obsessed with honour and competition -- their places in society are determined by how many kills they've made, their names don't get the honourific '-ee' suffix until they've served in the army.

Humanity isn't just challenging their place like the Jiralhanae did -- we're outright poised to topple them, and there's nothing they can do about it. And they know there are very few humans in the galaxy who wouldn't be glad to see them all dead.

I don't think competition on its own is what caused bitter feelings between the Brutes and Elites, it was the fact that the Brutes, having only joined the Covenant in 2492, demanded to be treated equal to the Elites. Only 60 years after joining the Covenant, the Brutes take from the Elites what took the Elites 3000 years of service to gain. The Brutes had not proven themselves at all but were already taking everything that the Elites spent countless years building. The fact that the Brutes literally have no concept of honour and find it to be ostentatious and superfluous, which is the same as their views on the Elite's whole culture, doesn't help things either.

Even the most competitively tolerant employee would feel bitter after being given the utter cold shoulder in favour of a newbie, after decades of loyalty and hard work to the company that they work at.

  • 12.30.2011 2:24 PM PDT