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This topic has moved here: Subject: 3 Spartan III's vs 1 Spartan II
  • Subject: 3 Spartan III's vs 1 Spartan II
Subject: 3 Spartan III's vs 1 Spartan II

lol O.O

  • 01.08.2012 1:08 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

You don't need augmentations to counter moves, that is her training. The only thing in that brawl that which is relevant is Oliva not having any broken bones due to her Augmentations.

Even during the brawl Kelly was noting how sloppy Oliva was.

  • 01.08.2012 1:12 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: grey101
You don't need augmentations to counter moves, that is her training. The only thing in that brawl that which is relevant is Oliva not having any broken bones due to her Augmentations.

Even during the brawl Kelly was noting how sloppy Oliva was.


I didn't quite read about how "sloppy" it was. I recall O dashing in, Kelly doing a move, O countering it and then Kelly struck her in the chest. Quite frankly, had both been wearing MJOLNIR...I have to wonder how it would've turned out.

  • 01.08.2012 1:14 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: superiorarsenal

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: superiorarsenal
The point still stands that the IIIs have nowhere near the requirements of the IIs(Besides NOBLE). Halsey could only find 150 out of 800 planets. Ackerson got close to 1,000 working only with refugees (In total).

And still, Glasslands is canon, as declared by 343, which ultimately has the final word. I hate some of the things Halo: Legends even more than Glasslands did with canon, but I accept it anyways because that's not my call.


On this, I refuse. All it does is show that the S-IIIs, despite being called super-soldiers, aren't. Yeah they have increased muscle mass, unbreakable bones, increased eyesight prowess and pretty much everything else the S-IIs had...but since Traviss or anyone at 343 seemed to read Ghosts of Onyx, they forgot.


You expect them to be the same as the IIs, on the sole basis of the same augmentations? The GENES is the determinate of the augmentation process, which the IIIs have less "perfect".

Better genes + Augs = Better effects
Lesser than ^ genes + Augs = Lesser than ^ effects


Which I call BS on since Olivia sparred with Kelly pretty well before Kelly punched her into a tree when they first met. So yeah, a small S-III who moved fast enough for Kelly to be surprised and managed to block her blows is worse. Wasn't exactly a fair fight either, what with Kelly wearing MJOLNIR.

But it makes me wonder, if a S-III couldn't hurt an old lady, how did they manage to do all of their seemingly impossible missions.


1) She blocked 1 or 2 moves then got smacked into the tree. This was when Kelly was surprised and probably underestimating Olivia. Not to mention Olivia was invisible. Olivia didn't even come close to even doing anything to Kelly. Hold up, I'll find the exact quote.

2)Guns, numbers, using martial arts techniques, ect. A single punch is hardly the basis for anything. Hmm, a martial arts master punches someone in the head and it doesn't kill them, so I guess that means they can't kill another human in H2H. Quite the leap there, especially because you don't have any quotes showing S-IIIs have the strength that that you are suggesting. We know that S-IIs can, but as I've amply shown, S-IIIs are not the physical equals of S-IIs.

  • 01.08.2012 1:28 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: grey101
You don't need augmentations to counter moves, that is her training. The only thing in that brawl that which is relevant is Oliva not having any broken bones due to her Augmentations.

Even during the brawl Kelly was noting how sloppy Oliva was.


I didn't quite read about how "sloppy" it was. I recall O dashing in, Kelly doing a move, O countering it and then Kelly struck her in the chest. Quite frankly, had both been wearing MJOLNIR...I have to wonder how it would've turned out.


well considering the only S-IIIs that wore MJOLNIR were NOBLE, and they had the same genes as the S-IIs, hence roughly the same physical ability. This doesn't mean that ALL S-IIIs can wear MJOLNIR.

  • 01.08.2012 1:32 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: superiorarsenal

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: grey101
You don't need augmentations to counter moves, that is her training. The only thing in that brawl that which is relevant is Oliva not having any broken bones due to her Augmentations.

Even during the brawl Kelly was noting how sloppy Oliva was.


I didn't quite read about how "sloppy" it was. I recall O dashing in, Kelly doing a move, O countering it and then Kelly struck her in the chest. Quite frankly, had both been wearing MJOLNIR...I have to wonder how it would've turned out.


well considering the only S-IIIs that wore MJOLNIR were NOBLE, and they had the same genes as the S-IIs, hence roughly the same physical ability. This doesn't mean that ALL S-IIIs can wear MJOLNIR.


Where does it imply they can't either?

  • 01.08.2012 1:33 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: grey101
You don't need augmentations to counter moves, that is her training. The only thing in that brawl that which is relevant is Oliva not having any broken bones due to her Augmentations.

Even during the brawl Kelly was noting how sloppy Oliva was.


I didn't quite read about how "sloppy" it was. I recall O dashing in, Kelly doing a move, O countering it and then Kelly struck her in the chest. Quite frankly, had both been wearing MJOLNIR...I have to wonder how it would've turned out.


Not at all different since kelly has experience.

  • 01.08.2012 1:33 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: grey101
You don't need augmentations to counter moves, that is her training. The only thing in that brawl that which is relevant is Oliva not having any broken bones due to her Augmentations.

Even during the brawl Kelly was noting how sloppy Oliva was.


I didn't quite read about how "sloppy" it was. I recall O dashing in, Kelly doing a move, O countering it and then Kelly struck her in the chest. Quite frankly, had both been wearing MJOLNIR...I have to wonder how it would've turned out.


Not at all different since kelly has experience.


And...? You imply that is all that matters which is incorrect.

  • 01.08.2012 1:36 PM PDT
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Halo: Ghosts of Onyx pg 164-165

There was motion in Kelly's peripheral vision, a blur.
Sh spun and saw a ghostly figure, moving toward her--faster than any human could move.
Kelly sidestepped, grabbed the arm, twisted.
Her opponent reverse-twisted and countered the lock. Whatever it was, it wasn't human; otherwise Kelly would have ripped its arm from the socket.
Her opponent twisted her wrist and escaped from Kelly's grip. Kelly was still faster--her other hand lashed out, palm flat, and impacted the solar plexus.
The other figure flew back two meters, hit a tree, and slumped.


All the III did was twist her arm and wrist, rudimentary H2H training gor any SPARTAN. Hardly keeping up with Kelly in H2H, like you suggest. Kelly actually made it look easy.

  • 01.08.2012 1:41 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: superiorarsenal
Halo: Ghosts of Onyx pg 164-165

There was motion in Kelly's peripheral vision, a blur.
Sh spun and saw a ghostly figure, moving toward her--faster than any human could move.
Kelly sidestepped, grabbed the arm, twisted.
Her opponent reverse-twisted and countered the lock. Whatever it was, it wasn't human; otherwise Kelly would have ripped its arm from the socket.
Her opponent twisted her wrist and escaped from Kelly's grip. Kelly was still faster--her other hand lashed out, palm flat, and impacted the solar plexus.
The other figure flew back two meters, hit a tree, and slumped.


All the III did was twist her arm and wrist, rudimentary H2H training gor any SPARTAN. Hardly keeping up with Kelly in H2H, like you suggest. Kelly actually made it look easy.


I suppose I make it out more than it really is, but for O to slip out period, I find it interesting. That said, how much of Kelly's power was amplified by her MJOLNIR?

  • 01.08.2012 1:43 PM PDT
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Took her reflexes from >20 milliseconds to >5 milliseconds. Either way, she still looked like she held a significant speed advantage, with or without MJOLNIR.

In terms of the MJOLNIR. The only humans EVER seen wearing MJOLNIR were S-IIs or S-IIIs that were genetically the same as S-IIs(Which by now you understand what that means). Saying that S-IIIs can wear MJOLNIR because there is no direct quote saying they can't, is the Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy, which is not a valid arguement.

  • 01.08.2012 1:52 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: superiorarsenal
Took her reflexes from >20 milliseconds to >5 milliseconds. Either way, she still looked like she held a significant speed advantage, with or without MJOLNIR.

In terms of the MJOLNIR. The only humans EVER seen wearing MJOLNIR were S-IIs or S-IIIs that were genetically the same as S-IIs(Which by now you understand what that means). Saying that S-IIIs can wear MJOLNIR because there is no direct quote saying they can't, is the Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy, which is not a valid arguement.


It may be a fallacy, but that doesn't mean they can't wear it. From a practical sense, 300+ sets of MJOLNOR would be expensive, hence the cheaper SPI. I wouldn't be surprised if they got some in the next post-war book. If anything, Mark, Ash and Olivia may get it because they were apparently some of the best of Gamma due to their "honors" exercise.

  • 01.08.2012 1:55 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: grey101

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: grey101
You don't need augmentations to counter moves, that is her training. The only thing in that brawl that which is relevant is Oliva not having any broken bones due to her Augmentations.

Even during the brawl Kelly was noting how sloppy Oliva was.


I didn't quite read about how "sloppy" it was. I recall O dashing in, Kelly doing a move, O countering it and then Kelly struck her in the chest. Quite frankly, had both been wearing MJOLNIR...I have to wonder how it would've turned out.


Not at all different since kelly has experience.


And...? You imply that is all that matters which is incorrect.


Just because she would have Mark V wouldn't magically make her a better fighter.

Kelly is more experience in using Mark V and has roughly 40 years of combat experience.

  • 01.08.2012 1:56 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: grey101

Just because she would have Mark V wouldn't magically make her a better fighter.


It would even the odds marginally. Wouldn't give a clear cut win.

Kelly is more experience in using Mark V and has roughly 40 years of combat experience.

More experienced fighters have been beaten by younger ones.

That said, this is a fight between three IIIs and a single II. The odds still don't quite go to the II.

  • 01.08.2012 2:00 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: grey101

Just because she would have Mark V wouldn't magically make her a better fighter.


It would even the odds marginally. Wouldn't give a clear cut win.

Kelly is more experience in using Mark V and has roughly 40 years of combat experience.

More experienced fighters have been beaten by younger ones.

That said, this is a fight between three IIIs and a single II. The odds still don't quite go to the II.

Bah!

  • 01.08.2012 2:11 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

I will concede my point about the fight between Kelly and O, I looked too much into it. That said, I refuse to believe the S-IIIs are so crappy that they can't hurt an old woman.

  • 01.08.2012 2:13 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: superiorarsenal
Took her reflexes from >20 milliseconds to >5 milliseconds. Either way, she still looked like she held a significant speed advantage, with or without MJOLNIR.

In terms of the MJOLNIR. The only humans EVER seen wearing MJOLNIR were S-IIs or S-IIIs that were genetically the same as S-IIs(Which by now you understand what that means). Saying that S-IIIs can wear MJOLNIR because there is no direct quote saying they can't, is the Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy, which is not a valid arguement.


It may be a fallacy, but that doesn't mean they can't wear it. From a practical sense, 300+ sets of MJOLNOR would be expensive, hence the cheaper SPI. I wouldn't be surprised if they got some in the next post-war book. If anything, Mark, Ash and Olivia may get it because they were apparently some of the best of Gamma due to their "honors" exercise.


But just because MJOLNIR is expensive doesn't mean that they can wear it. We have only seen S-IIs(and NOBLE) wear MJOLNIR. Wear is your PROOF that they can wear MJOLNIR? We have not seen it, short of S-IIIs that were basically S-IIs, and to simply say that "Well S-IIIs got augmentations, then they can wear MJOLNIR" is ignorant.

  • 01.08.2012 2:15 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: superiorarsenal
But just because MJOLNIR is expensive doesn't mean that they can wear it. We have only seen S-IIs(and NOBLE) wear MJOLNIR. Wear is your PROOF that they can wear MJOLNIR? We have not seen it, short of S-IIIs that were basically S-IIs, and to simply say that "Well S-IIIs got augmentations, then they can wear MJOLNIR" is ignorant.


You make the claim they can't where it, I merely say nothing says they can't. Burden of proof is on you.

  • 01.08.2012 2:17 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
I will concede my point about the fight between Kelly and O, I looked too much into it. That said, I refuse to believe the S-IIIs are so crappy that they can't hurt an old woman.


Halsey should have at VERY LEAST been knocked unconscious and given a fairly severe concussion. Not simply falling down and having a bloody nose. Speaking of nose, Lucy's punch should probably broken that too.

  • 01.08.2012 2:18 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: superiorarsenal

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
I will concede my point about the fight between Kelly and O, I looked too much into it. That said, I refuse to believe the S-IIIs are so crappy that they can't hurt an old woman.


Halsey should have at VERY LEAST been knocked unconscious and given a fairly severe concussion. Not simply falling down and having a bloody nose. Speaking of nose, Lucy's punch should probably broken that too.


It didn't.

  • 01.08.2012 2:21 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: superiorarsenal
But just because MJOLNIR is expensive doesn't mean that they can wear it. We have only seen S-IIs(and NOBLE) wear MJOLNIR. Wear is your PROOF that they can wear MJOLNIR? We have not seen it, short of S-IIIs that were basically S-IIs, and to simply say that "Well S-IIIs got augmentations, then they can wear MJOLNIR" is ignorant.


You make the claim they can't where it, I merely say nothing says they can't. Burden of proof is on you.


Oh no, you are mistaken. The actual claim is that S-IIIs can wear MJOLNIR. YOU have to prove that. I've also given more evidence to support my position. I haven't seen any information that leads me to believe that they CAN.

I merely say nothing says they can't

Appeal to Ignorance

  • 01.08.2012 2:23 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: superiorarsenal

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
I will concede my point about the fight between Kelly and O, I looked too much into it. That said, I refuse to believe the S-IIIs are so crappy that they can't hurt an old woman.


Halsey should have at VERY LEAST been knocked unconscious and given a fairly severe concussion. Not simply falling down and having a bloody nose. Speaking of nose, Lucy's punch should probably broken that too.


It didn't.


I know. I was agreeing with you. Just because I debate someone on one front doesn't mean I have to disagree on every front.

  • 01.08.2012 2:25 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

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"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein


Posted by: superiorarsenal

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: superiorarsenal
Took her reflexes from >20 milliseconds to >5 milliseconds. Either way, she still looked like she held a significant speed advantage, with or without MJOLNIR.

In terms of the MJOLNIR. The only humans EVER seen wearing MJOLNIR were S-IIs or S-IIIs that were genetically the same as S-IIs(Which by now you understand what that means). Saying that S-IIIs can wear MJOLNIR because there is no direct quote saying they can't, is the Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy, which is not a valid arguement.


It may be a fallacy, but that doesn't mean they can't wear it. From a practical sense, 300+ sets of MJOLNOR would be expensive, hence the cheaper SPI. I wouldn't be surprised if they got some in the next post-war book. If anything, Mark, Ash and Olivia may get it because they were apparently some of the best of Gamma due to their "honors" exercise.


But just because MJOLNIR is expensive doesn't mean that they can wear it. We have only seen S-IIs(and NOBLE) wear MJOLNIR. Wear is your PROOF that they can wear MJOLNIR? We have not seen it, short of S-IIIs that were basically S-IIs, and to simply say that "Well S-IIIs got augmentations, then they can wear MJOLNIR" is ignorant.

The reason why regular soldiers cannot wear MJOLNIR is because their bones are pulverized under the increased speed of all their motor actions; they cannot control it.

Any Spartan III can use MJOLNIR armor; you are the first one I have ever seen to dispute such an indisputable fact. They have the augs, they can wear the armor, period. You do not understand how genes work if you believe they can give such a higher boost to the II's that only they can wear the armor.

And if I am not mistaken, the reason Noble was given MJOLNIR is because they had proven themselves in combat every time, and were as skilled as a Spartan II group. That does not necessarily mean they have the genes of a normal SII candidate.

  • 01.08.2012 2:25 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Your only evidence is because the members of Noble had genes that matched those of the S-IIs, they could handle MJOLNIR. Does that prove non-S-II gened S-IIIs can't handle it? No. Nothing says they can or can't wear MJOLNIR. They only reason they didn't get any was because it's ridiculously expensive. However, we know Mk.VII is being pumped out so who knows.

Quoting fallacies doesn't help your case really.

  • 01.08.2012 2:27 PM PDT
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Posted by: Plasma Prestige

Posted by: superiorarsenal

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: superiorarsenal
Took her reflexes from >20 milliseconds to >5 milliseconds. Either way, she still looked like she held a significant speed advantage, with or without MJOLNIR.

In terms of the MJOLNIR. The only humans EVER seen wearing MJOLNIR were S-IIs or S-IIIs that were genetically the same as S-IIs(Which by now you understand what that means). Saying that S-IIIs can wear MJOLNIR because there is no direct quote saying they can't, is the Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy, which is not a valid arguement.


It may be a fallacy, but that doesn't mean they can't wear it. From a practical sense, 300+ sets of MJOLNOR would be expensive, hence the cheaper SPI. I wouldn't be surprised if they got some in the next post-war book. If anything, Mark, Ash and Olivia may get it because they were apparently some of the best of Gamma due to their "honors" exercise.


But just because MJOLNIR is expensive doesn't mean that they can wear it. We have only seen S-IIs(and NOBLE) wear MJOLNIR. Wear is your PROOF that they can wear MJOLNIR? We have not seen it, short of S-IIIs that were basically S-IIs, and to simply say that "Well S-IIIs got augmentations, then they can wear MJOLNIR" is ignorant.

The reason why regular soldiers cannot wear MJOLNIR is because their bones are pulverized under the increased speed of all their motor actions; they cannot control it.

Any Spartan III can use MJOLNIR armor; you are the first one I have ever seen to dispute such an indisputable fact. They have the augs, they can wear the armor, period. You do not understand how genes work if you believe they can give such a higher boost to the II's that only they can wear the armor.

And if I am not mistaken, the reason Noble was given MJOLNIR is because they had proven themselves in combat every time, and were as skilled as a Spartan II group. That does not necessarily mean they have the genes of a normal SII candidate.


*sigh*

Kurt's Letter CLEARLY shows that NOBLE Team had S-II genes.

If the majority of IIIs didn't get the same amplification of effects from the augs, then it is entirely possible that they would be unable to wear MJOLNIR. It would be nice if someone could provide some proof for me that they can.

  • 01.08.2012 2:29 PM PDT