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  • Subject: 3 Spartan III's vs 1 Spartan II
Subject: 3 Spartan III's vs 1 Spartan II

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Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Plasma Prestige

Posted by: grey101
I am on arsenal with this.


The thyroid implant the SIIIs didn't get also further strengthen the bones going in concert with the ossification aug.

So we cannot say how that would effect wearing power armor.

Noble team did not have the thyroid implant (excluding Jorge).



Then again they were going to be SIIs anyway, so we have genetics.

Genetics are not the boundary between who can and cannot MJOLNIR; such an assertion is nigh ridiculous.

While it is possible that the Spartan IIIs cannot wear MJOLNIR, there is much more reason to say they can than they cannot. In my opinion, we are thinking too deeply about this; I'm pretty sure if you asked Frankie the question, "Are Spartan IIIs able to wear MJOLNIR armor," the answer would be yes.

If we need such a high degree of certainty for everything in the canon, then there are too many things which can only be guessed upon.

  • 01.09.2012 12:27 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

doesn't change the fact that the only reason she was even looking at him was because of his genes. She means by that quote, that though they may have the REQUIRED genes, emphasis on REQUIRED, they could have had a horrible up-brining, or were in an accident that crippled them. Environmental factors do apply, but ultimately it was the S-IIs genes that was why Halsey was looking at them.

Yes, but the point is that genes are not everything; you have gone as far as saying that the genes are the difference between who can and cannot wear MJOLNIR.

  • 01.09.2012 12:30 PM PDT
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Posted by: Plasma Prestige
doesn't change the fact that the only reason she was even looking at him was because of his genes. She means by that quote, that though they may have the REQUIRED genes, emphasis on REQUIRED, they could have had a horrible up-brining, or were in an accident that crippled them. Environmental factors do apply, but ultimately it was the S-IIs genes that was why Halsey was looking at them.

Yes, but the point is that genes are not everything; you have gone as far as saying that the genes are the difference between who can and cannot wear MJOLNIR.


This is all Nature vs. Nurture.

HOWEVER

If all S-IIs and all S-IIIs had roughly the same training(some is based on specialization, and some varience between IIs and IIIs) and if all SPARTANs try to preform and train the same(As hard and as best they can), then you can eliminate the nurture part. The thing that will set them apart from their peers will be their genes.

Then in Bioaugmentation, nurture holds ABSOLUTELY NO standing when it comes to bioaugmentations. Genes are the ONLY factors on the results, maybe with the exception of being fit aswell(Which all SPARTANs are). Better genes give better results. Certain people are predisposed to take them better. Hence why people who don't have the right genes get killed. Those that have perfect genes get even better effects, as evident by the difference of the labels and the results for the S-II project.

SPARTANs:
Train the same
Train as hard as they can
Preform the best they can

So if they all train and preform the best they can, what would set them apart from eachother?

GENES

Some people are just born faster, stronger, and/or smarter than others. It also makes it easier for them to train, because their body got the right combination for whatever they are training. This gives them the advantage over those that are not genetically "designed" for the task.

  • 01.09.2012 3:49 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Plasma Prestige
doesn't change the fact that the only reason she was even looking at him was because of his genes. She means by that quote, that though they may have the REQUIRED genes, emphasis on REQUIRED, they could have had a horrible up-brining, or were in an accident that crippled them. Environmental factors do apply, but ultimately it was the S-IIs genes that was why Halsey was looking at them.

Yes, but the point is that genes are not everything; you have gone as far as saying that the genes are the difference between who can and cannot wear MJOLNIR.


If Genes weren't everything then there wouldn't be a spartan program.

  • 01.09.2012 3:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Plasma Prestige
doesn't change the fact that the only reason she was even looking at him was because of his genes. She means by that quote, that though they may have the REQUIRED genes, emphasis on REQUIRED, they could have had a horrible up-brining, or were in an accident that crippled them. Environmental factors do apply, but ultimately it was the S-IIs genes that was why Halsey was looking at them.

Yes, but the point is that genes are not everything; you have gone as far as saying that the genes are the difference between who can and cannot wear MJOLNIR.


If Genes weren't everything then there wouldn't be a spartan program.


Do people just ignore that Halsey ONLY found 150 with the right genes, THEN, emphasis on THEN (Now some Repitition for effect, THEN, THEN, THEN), looked at their non-genetic attributes, to check to make sure something like a crippling accident didn't happen, or they are mentally stable. She only took the most genetically perfect, THEN, sorted them out based on non-genetic traits.

You don't have the right genes? Too bad, you are immediatly disqualified from the S-II project. No ifs, ands, or buts. You ABSOLUTELY, 100%, NO Doubt, no exceptions, HAD to have the right genes to even be considered to be considered.

  • 01.09.2012 3:57 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Having the right genes doesn't mean you can wield MJOLNIR. You think Chief could use it without the augmentations? No, his bones would snap like twigs. We know both the IIs and IIIs had increased muscle mass and indestructible bones. The one thing missing is the thyroid implant, but Noble Team didn't have it either and they could wear MJOLNIR.

  • 01.09.2012 4:05 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Having the right genes doesn't mean you can wield MJOLNIR. You think Chief could use it without the augmentations? No, his bones would snap like twigs. We know both the IIs and IIIs had increased muscle mass and indestructible bones. The one thing missing is the thyroid implant, but Noble Team didn't have it either and they could wear MJOLNIR.


Genes determine the effects/severity of the Bioaugmentations. The outcome of said augs is what determines if you can wear MJOLNIR. If S-IIIs weren't modified as heavily as S-IIs(supported by less restrictions and Mendez saying "we enhanced them SOME" some as in comparison to the S-IIs) it is entirely POSSIBLE that they can't wear MJOLNIR. WE don't know if they can or not, so you can't say that they can without a doubt, which is my whole argument. For some reason you just ignore the entire parts of mt post talking about genes and bioaugs, and jump straight to the conclusion that I think as long as you have the right genes you can wear MJOLNIR.

I'm not saying they outright CAN'T.
I'm saying it's POSSIBLE that they can't.

(BTW, the bones are not indestructable/unbreakable, for the IIs or IIIs)

  • 01.09.2012 4:22 PM PDT


Posted by: zak2014
Ending the II vs. III debate.

II's

-surgical augmentations

-(insignificantly) better genes. like, .000001% better (not real percentage, but it illustrates my point)

-Mjolnir

-Thyroid implant

- Larger

III's

- Chemical augmentations (same effects, with the frontal lobe mutation, which adds extra survivability, even more so than a II)

- Slightly larger gene pool, but still the very best humanity had to offer

-SPI, which granted near-seamless active camo, with ballistic & plasma resistance.

- No thyroid implant (smaller stature =/= worse)

- Slightly smaller than a II

-Tougher training regime than the II's

Back on topic, I think the III's would win from stealth and numbers, not necessarily by strength.
I'm guessing you missed the whole part were the S-III project started and when Ash talks about becoming a S-III. "Still the very best humanity had to offer"...Yea I believe that was the S-II's. How do I know? Dr.Halsey went and checked out all of the kids were the S-II project while the S-III were radom kids who ever orphaned by the covenent.

  • 01.09.2012 4:50 PM PDT
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After reviewing the data on S-IIIs, she was appalled at the genetics, and Halsey being the lead geneticist in the entire UNSC, and possibly even the greatest mind of her time, I value her opinion highly.

  • 01.09.2012 4:55 PM PDT


Posted by: superiorarsenal
After reviewing the data on S-IIIs, she was appalled at the genetics, and Halsey being the lead geneticist in the entire UNSC, and possibly even the greatest mind of her time, I value her opinion highly.


And we know she was obsessive compulsive about the genes of the Spartans to be picked. She may not have known the improved augmentations.

Still, we have a direct quote from GoO where they talk directly about the genetic requirements. The fact Mendez was present then says there was zero restrictions means two things.

A: Traviss clearly didn't do her research.
B: Mendez said that simply to get back at Halsey, which kinda ties into above as that's not his character.

  • 01.09.2012 9:41 PM PDT

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Posted by: superiorarsenal
Genes determine the effects/severity of the Bioaugmentations. The outcome of said augs is what determines if you can wear MJOLNIR. If S-IIIs weren't modified as heavily as S-IIs(supported by less restrictions and Mendez saying "we enhanced them SOME" some as in comparison to the S-IIs) it is entirely POSSIBLE that they can't wear MJOLNIR. WE don't know if they can or not, so you can't say that they can without a doubt, which is my whole argument. For some reason you just ignore the entire parts of mt post talking about genes and bioaugs, and jump straight to the conclusion that I think as long as you have the right genes you can wear MJOLNIR.

I'm not saying they outright CAN'T.
I'm saying it's POSSIBLE that they can't.

(BTW, the bones are not indestructable/unbreakable, for the IIs or IIIs)

They didn't make the Mjolnir suits at the very threshold of what a Spartan II can withstand, that would just be stupid. Anyone with the correct neural implant could use a Mjolnir suit, but only someone with powerful enough physical augmentations could survive it. A spartan III would fit comfortably within what the suit can deal out.

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Posted by: superiorarsenal

Posted by: Plasma Prestige
doesn't change the fact that the only reason she was even looking at him was because of his genes. She means by that quote, that though they may have the REQUIRED genes, emphasis on REQUIRED, they could have had a horrible up-brining, or were in an accident that crippled them. Environmental factors do apply, but ultimately it was the S-IIs genes that was why Halsey was looking at them.

Yes, but the point is that genes are not everything; you have gone as far as saying that the genes are the difference between who can and cannot wear MJOLNIR.


This is all Nature vs. Nurture.

HOWEVER

If all S-IIs and all S-IIIs had roughly the same training(some is based on specialization, and some varience between IIs and IIIs) and if all SPARTANs try to preform and train the same(As hard and as best they can), then you can eliminate the nurture part. The thing that will set them apart from their peers will be their genes.

Then in Bioaugmentation, nurture holds ABSOLUTELY NO standing when it comes to bioaugmentations. Genes are the ONLY factors on the results, maybe with the exception of being fit aswell(Which all SPARTANs are). Better genes give better results. Certain people are predisposed to take them better. Hence why people who don't have the right genes get killed. Those that have perfect genes get even better effects, as evident by the difference of the labels and the results for the S-II project.

SPARTANs:
Train the same
Train as hard as they can
Preform the best they can

So if they all train and preform the best they can, what would set them apart from eachother?

GENES

Some people are just born faster, stronger, and/or smarter than others. It also makes it easier for them to train, because their body got the right combination for whatever they are training. This gives them the advantage over those that are not genetically "designed" for the task.


All -IIs and S-IIIs are fully capable of wearing MJOLNIR armor. They have the ceramic ossification, therefore their skeletons are strong enough to wear it. The S-IIs were chosen for their genes because the program was deigned to make spartans the best possible soldiers, so every advantage, however slight (or great) was used. Furthermore, the reason why so many S-IIs died had nothing to do with their genes. The procedures, which involved dangerous surgery and equally dangerous injections, is what killed or severely disabled all those in question. Furthermore, the S-IIIs had a 100% success rate with the augmentations because there was no surgery involved; it was all injections. Furthermore, if we want to get into more specific details, Project ORION had room for 75 candidates only. Halsey herself said (in Fall of Reach) that getting into the program was going to be equal parts luck as it was genes. This means that even some S-IIs didn't have the best genes from the candidate pool. Does that hamper their ability to wear MJOLNIR? No, it doesn't. They have the augmentations, they can wear the armor, and no matter how "perfect" their genes are, it will make no difference. Even the S-IIIs were like Olympic athletes, and they didn't have "perfect genes". They were smaller, but that was most likely do to a lack of thyroid implant that the S-IIs got. As for training, muscles can adapt and change to whatever fibre type is needed for the given demand (i.e., endurance running, more slow-twitch fibres). In conclusion, S-IIIs are just as capable as S-IIs.

  • 01.10.2012 6:57 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: UphillMercury
S-IIIs are just as capable as S-IIs.


Yet Lucy punching halsey didn't break her face.

  • 01.10.2012 6:58 AM PDT

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Posted by: grey101

Posted by: UphillMercury
S-IIIs are just as capable as S-IIs.


Yet Lucy punching halsey didn't break her face.


......

All -IIs and S-IIIs are fully capable of wearing MJOLNIR armor. They have the ceramic ossification, therefore their skeletons are strong enough to wear it. The S-IIs were chosen for their genes because the program was deigned to make spartans the best possible soldiers, so every advantage, however slight (or great) was used. Furthermore, the reason why so many S-IIs died had nothing to do with their genes. The procedures, which involved dangerous surgery and equally dangerous injections, is what killed or severely disabled all those in question. Furthermore, the S-IIIs had a 100% success rate with the augmentations because there was no surgery involved; it was all injections. Furthermore, if we want to get into more specific details, Project ORION had room for 75 candidates only. Halsey herself said (in Fall of Reach) that getting into the program was going to be equal parts luck as it was genes. This means that even some S-IIs didn't have the best genes from the candidate pool. Does that hamper their ability to wear MJOLNIR? No, it doesn't. They have the augmentations, they can wear the armor, and no matter how "perfect" their genes are, it will make no difference. Even the S-IIIs were like Olympic athletes, and they didn't have "perfect genes". They were smaller, but that was most likely do to a lack of thyroid implant that the S-IIs got. As for training, muscles can adapt and change to whatever fibre type is needed for the given demand (i.e., endurance running, more slow-twitch fibres). In conclusion, S-IIIs are just as capable as S-IIs.

This, I agree with. SPARTAN-III are capable to wearing MJOLNIR armor. Reasons why they did not wear it because they are designed to be suicidal soldiers. Besides, mass producing MJOLNIR is extremely expensive. We're talking about a MJOLNIR costing like a entire battlegroup. Imagine to make over 900 MJOLNIRs armor... would be about entire six to eight fleets worth. (That's 100 ships each) and you know that UNSC had no money to pay for that massive amount of MJOLNIR.

So, yeah.

[Edited on 01.10.2012 8:10 AM PST]

  • 01.10.2012 8:08 AM PDT
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Posted by: grey101

Posted by: UphillMercury
S-IIIs are just as capable as S-IIs.


Yet Lucy punching halsey didn't break her face.


Notice how I said "capable." This means that they are fairly equal in terms of their soldiering abilities. Yes, their overall training was different in terms of actual exercises performed, but they were still the best soldiers the UNSC had. "Capable," in this sense, does not include being able to cave in someone's face.

Let's think about this for a second. Lucy was mad, to be sure, but since Halsey was the only one of everyone trapped in the micro-Dyson sphere who could read Forerunner writing and communicate effectively with the Huragok there, it would not be in Lucy's best interest to kill the doctor. Furthermore, Lucy had psychiatric problems to begin with. There are multiple quotes in Glasslands saying so, even thoughts from Lucy. Being depressed enough to not talk for seven years should be setting of a few alarms about her mental well-being, and therefore her ability to act in a combat situation, but ignoring that, it was obvious she needed some time to vent. Punching Dr. Halsey over comments she saw as a personal attack was just a way of venting, not an intent to kill.

[Edited on 01.10.2012 1:32 PM PST]

  • 01.10.2012 1:28 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Nothing you said was relevant. Any time i scratch myself to relief an itch i do not intend to kill whatever is bothering me, i just happen to do so. same for the bugs i step on while walking on the sidewalk.

She punched halsey with enough force to send a shock-wave down her arm yet all halsey got was a black eye? I wonder how they kill anything in H2H combat if lucy only managed to do that.

  • 01.10.2012 1:34 PM PDT
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Don't do anything you wouldn't want to have to explain to paramedics. Trust me, I'm a pilot.

Everything I said was relevant. If you had paid attention when you were reading, you would have found these things to be true. I am inferring on the psychological aspects. Having not personally punched anyone in the face before, I do not know the outcome of doing so, let alone the effects of doing so after S-III augmentations. I would love to hear your personal experience, as you seem quite knowledgeable on punching people in the face with S-III augmentations. Furthermore, the last time I checked, walking and punching people in the face usually have very different intentions, causes, and effects, but this is merely stating my own opinion.


Posted by: grey101
Nothing you said was relevant. Any time i scratch myself to relief an itch i do not intend to kill whatever is bothering me, i just happen to do so. same for the bugs i step on while walking on the sidewalk.

She punched halsey with enough force to send a shock-wave down her arm yet all halsey got was a black eye? I wonder how they kill anything in H2H combat if lucy only managed to do that.

  • 01.10.2012 1:40 PM PDT

S IIIs are not much weaker than S IIs the augmentations were not of the same level but they are still super human they drilled to rely on teamwork to win and the SIIIs have numerical advantage. But against an opponent like Kelly who had to physically slow herself down to spar with other spartans they don't stand much of a chance.

  • 01.10.2012 1:41 PM PDT


Posted by: Mr Owen L
S IIIs are not much weaker than S IIs the augmentations were not of the same level but they are still super human they drilled to rely on teamwork to win and the SIIIs have numerical advantage. But against an opponent like Kelly who had to physically slow herself down to spar with other spartans they don't stand much of a chance.
Read Glasslands where Lucy punches Halsey. I'd say the S-III's are weak. Before you say she held back or whatever...READ IT. It says Lucy lost it, couldn't take the way Halsey was acting and just lost it and punched her. And all that happened was a blackeye. So yea I'd say S-III are alot weaker.

[Edited on 01.10.2012 1:54 PM PST]

  • 01.10.2012 1:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: Chester Duncan

Posted by: Mr Owen L
S IIIs are not much weaker than S IIs the augmentations were not of the same level but they are still super human they drilled to rely on teamwork to win and the SIIIs have numerical advantage. But against an opponent like Kelly who had to physically slow herself down to spar with other spartans they don't stand much of a chance.
Read Glasslands where Lucy punches Halsey. I'd say the S-III's are weak. Before you can she held back or whatever...READ IT. It says Lucy lost it, couldn't take the way Halsey was acting and just lost it and punched her. And all that happened was a blackeye. So yea I'd say S-III are alot weaker.


Yes, she lost it, but it did not explicitly say she wanted to kill her. More likely it was do to her mental issues, as referred to in one of my previous posts. If not, she wouldn't have been able to get a second punch in, as she would have been restrained by the other spartans, in all likelihood. As I said, I am no expert on punching people in the face post-S-III augmentations.

  • 01.10.2012 1:55 PM PDT


Posted by: UphillMercury

Posted by: Chester Duncan

Posted by: Mr Owen L
S IIIs are not much weaker than S IIs the augmentations were not of the same level but they are still super human they drilled to rely on teamwork to win and the SIIIs have numerical advantage. But against an opponent like Kelly who had to physically slow herself down to spar with other spartans they don't stand much of a chance.
Read Glasslands where Lucy punches Halsey. I'd say the S-III's are weak. Before you can she held back or whatever...READ IT. It says Lucy lost it, couldn't take the way Halsey was acting and just lost it and punched her. And all that happened was a blackeye. So yea I'd say S-III are alot weaker.


Yes, she lost it, but it did not explicitly say she wanted to kill her. More likely it was do to her mental issues, as referred to in one of my previous posts. If not, she wouldn't have been able to get a second punch in, as she would have been restrained by the other spartans, in all likelihood. As I said, I am no expert on punching people in the face post-S-III augmentations.
All I'm saying is if you lost it and saw everything in red and were crying and screaming your head off, I doubt you'd punch at 20% or something like that. Again I'm just saying that a S-III lost it and attacked someone. And that person is just fine. But look at the S-II when they were trained after the augmentations. Without armour or anything like that and just starting to relearn how to act, three DI's were killed in hand to hand combat. And it was stated that the spartans didn't mean to and they were sorry and felt like -blam!-. Noe compare that to someone going ape-blam!- and attcking someone to someone just training.

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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: UphillMercury
Everything I said was relevant.

Having not personally punched anyone in the face before, I do not know the outcome of doing so, let alone the effects of doing so after S-III augmentations.


If it was then i wouldn't have said it wasn't. There are no "psychological" aspects of what happen, Lucy punched her with (what should have been) enough force to break her face and did not. John killed those ODSTs without thinking about it, do you want to state the psychological aspects of that encounter? Because they are very similar.

I have broken Peoples noses and even caused retina's to become detached. with a single punched, and have had it done to me in return. So For lucy to put that much for into it and halsey not even have a broken nose is pathetic.

[Edited on 01.10.2012 2:07 PM PST]

  • 01.10.2012 2:02 PM PDT
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Posted by: Chester Duncan

I agree with what you're saying, but realistically speaking, Halsey was the only way they were getting out of the micro-Dyson sphere. If anything, Lucy was just taking a spartan-style toddler tantrum; mad, but with no intention of killing someone. It'd be like losing it on your best friend. You may rough him up a bit, but at the end of the day, you still want him around.

In John's scenario, which you were describing, the ODSTs had the intention of hurting John. While he had conflicts between natural instinct and respect for the military and the chain of command (he didn't know the rank of the ODSTs), the order by the sergeant to step into the ring and natural instincts took over, and he proceeded to beat them to the point of death, all on what he considered to be "sensible" orders. Though I can see where you're coming from, the two scenarios are too different.

[Edited on 01.10.2012 2:11 PM PST]

  • 01.10.2012 2:09 PM PDT
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Posted by: grey101

Posted by: UphillMercury
Everything I said was relevant.

Having not personally punched anyone in the face before, I do not know the outcome of doing so, let alone the effects of doing so after S-III augmentations.


If it was then i wouldn't have said it wasn't. There are no "psychological" aspects of what happen, Lucy punched her with (what should have been) enough force to break her face and did not. John killed those ODSTs without thinking about it, do you want to state the psychological aspects of that encounter? Because they are very similar.

I have broken Peoples noses and even caused retina's to become detached. with a single punched, and have had it done to me in return. So For lucy to put that much for into it and halsey not even have a broken nose is pathetic.


Please refer to my post, which is directly below yours.

  • 01.10.2012 2:11 PM PDT


Posted by: UphillMercury

Posted by: Chester Duncan

I agree with what you're saying, but realistically speaking, Halsey was the only way they were getting out of the micro-Dyson sphere. If anything, Lucy was just taking a spartan-style toddler tantrum; mad, but with no intention of killing someone. It'd be like losing it on your best friend. You make rough him up a bit, but at the end of the day, you still want him around.

In John's scenario, which you were describing, the ODSTs had the intention of hurting John. While he had conflicts between natural instinct and respect for the military and the chain of command (he didn't know the rank of the ODSTs), the order by the sergeant to step into the ring and natural instincts took over, and he proceeded to beat them to the point of death, all on what he considered to be "sensible" orders. Though I can see where you're coming from, the two scenarios are too different.
I don't think Lucy was thinking about getting out of the sphere. She wanted Halsey to stop but she wouldn't. So she attacked her. Also for the second part you got mine mixed up with another Grey's. Mine was training in hand to hand and killing the DI's without trying or thinking about it.

  • 01.10.2012 2:12 PM PDT