Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Halo: Primordium discussion [spoilers]
  • Subject: Halo: Primordium discussion [spoilers]
Subject: Halo: Primordium discussion [spoilers]
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Posted by: chotato
smart, interesting, seems out of place.


Official fan of Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, (Problem with that?) Halo, and Bungie, also a total gaming junkie.

OK, I don't have the book yet, so tell me, WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT THE TIMELESS ONE?!?!?! And does it say anything about the Terminal 5 race?

Also, this post gave me Intrepid. Yay.

[Edited on 01.04.2012 1:07 PM PST]

  • 01.04.2012 1:02 PM PDT


Posted by: Ktan Dantaktee
OK, I don't have the book yet, so tell me, WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT THE TIMELESS ONE?!?!?! And does it say anything about the Terminal 5 race?


He is a higher stage of gravemind.

All precursors may be.

Or perhaps he is simply a gravemind made of a bunch of precursors (done so on purpose, as the precursors believe the flood to be the ultimate species).

It's not completely clear, but Didact pointed out that the TO is a gravemind itself, but it was hard to tell if it was a gravemind made of precursors specifically, or if all preursors are simply advanced graveminds.

Also, he revealed to our heroes that the whole "cure" that the humans made never cured a thing. The precursors just selectively decided to stop infecting them because they seemed to be a better species to pass the mantle on to than forerunners; perhaps inspired by humanities willingness to feed the flood (2/3 the population sacrificing themselves to try and find "a cure"). To the precursors, upholding the mantle means joining with the flood, as the flood provides ultimate knowledge and ultimate peace in the galaxy. This made Didact really pissed off since countless beings have suffered and died to try and find the secret of the cure. So he disintegrated it (TO).

This does make me wonder if the humans sacrificing themselves to the flood was something they did because they thought it would actually cure them, or if they did it because the TO offered them another 100,000 years of living before they consumed them if they sacrificed a large portion of their population like so.



[Edited on 01.04.2012 1:19 PM PST]

  • 01.04.2012 1:12 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Posted by: chotato
smart, interesting, seems out of place.


Official fan of Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, (Problem with that?) Halo, and Bungie, also a total gaming junkie.

Posted by: Wazooty

Posted by: Ktan Dantaktee
OK, I don't have the book yet, so tell me, WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT THE TIMELESS ONE?!?!?! And does it say anything about the Terminal 5 race?


He is a higher stage of gravemind.

All precursors may be.

Or perhaps he is simply a gravemind made of a bunch of precursors (done so on purpose, as the precursors believe the flood to be the ultimate species).

Also, he revealed to our heroes that the whole "cure" that the humans made never cured a thing. They just selectively decided to stop infecting them because they seemed to be a better species to pass the mantle on to than forerunners; perhaps inspiring by humanities willingness to feed the flood (2/3 the population sacrificing themselves to try and find "a cure"). To the precursors, upholding the mantle means joining with the flood, as the flood provides ultimate knowledge and ultimate peace in the galaxy. This made Didact really pissed off since countless beings have suffered and died to try and find the secret of the cure. So he disintegrated him (TO).


Huh. Well, at least my theory was part right. So let me get this straight, the Timeless One is an Advanced Gravemind, decided to not wipe the human race out, then got blown up by the Didact?

Well, that changes the way I look at the Forerunners. Now they don't look like massive a-holes. Just normal a-holes.

  • 01.04.2012 1:17 PM PDT

Indeed, primordial specifically said to the forerunners than they never were supposed to be the upholder of the mantle.

The story goes that the precursors made races and destroyed races as they saw fit. They viewed the forerunners as failures and decided to destroy them. However, the forerunner caught on and fought back, destroying the precursors.

Humans were ALWAYS the ones they intended to pass the mantle on to.

The precursors really remind me of the Xel'Naga (for those familiar with starcraft lore). The protoss being their failed creations, and the zerg being the ones that will unite all their creations under one banner.

  • 01.04.2012 1:23 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Veteran Legendary Member

Don't be stupid like I was! Check to see what that Forum Ninja is saying to you!

"I may not like what you say, but I will defend your right to the death to say it!"

"Tolerance is a virtue, and virtue builds character."
-Onyx81


Posted by: Wazooty

Posted by: Ktan Dantaktee
OK, I don't have the book yet, so tell me, WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT THE TIMELESS ONE?!?!?! And does it say anything about the Terminal 5 race?


He is a higher stage of gravemind.

All precursors may be.

Or perhaps he is simply a gravemind made of a bunch of precursors (done so on purpose, as the precursors believe the flood to be the ultimate species).

It's not completely clear, but Didact pointed out that the TO is a gravemind itself, but it was hard to tell if it was a gravemind made of precursors specifically, or if all preursors are simply advanced graveminds.

Also, he revealed to our heroes that the whole "cure" that the humans made never cured a thing. The precursors just selectively decided to stop infecting them because they seemed to be a better species to pass the mantle on to than forerunners; perhaps inspired by humanities willingness to feed the flood (2/3 the population sacrificing themselves to try and find "a cure"). To the precursors, upholding the mantle means joining with the flood, as the flood provides ultimate knowledge and ultimate peace in the galaxy. This made Didact really pissed off since countless beings have suffered and died to try and find the secret of the cure. So he disintegrated it (TO).

This does make me wonder if the humans sacrificing themselves to the flood was something they did because they thought it would actually cure them, or if they did it because the TO offered them another 100,000 years of living before they consumed them if they sacrificed a large portion of their population like so.

I read the Book. When did this happen? I know the Flood can selectively infect species, but when do the Flood just decide to retreat?

  • 01.04.2012 4:04 PM PDT

Waypoint Moderators aren't really Moderators, just power hungry and its goal is defend their beloved Halo at all costs. (Meaning that they wank Halo too much.)

BS Angel is alleged foe so, be wary of Waypoint and its moderators! Do not attempt to move to Waypoint. Enter your own risk.

*WARNING* IT IS MY OPINION.


Posted by: ThePredkiller2
I don't think the Flood are Precursors. Not anymore anyway. What the Precursors used to be is long gone from this world, replaced by the Flood, what they are now.

By the way I find it highly unlikely 343 is still alive after watching him explode after being shot by a Splazor like 5 times, just sayin'.


... They found damaged core and repaired it. Thus resurrecting 343 Guilty Spark. Simple as that. Even it's in Primordium.

  • 01.04.2012 4:16 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: Elder Bias

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
I don't think the Flood are Precursors. Not anymore anyway. What the Precursors used to be is long gone from this world, replaced by the Flood, what they are now.

By the way I find it highly unlikely 343 is still alive after watching him explode after being shot by a Splazor like 5 times, just sayin'.


... They found damaged core and repaired it. Thus resurrecting 343 Guilty Spark. Simple as that. Even it's in Primordium.


Does the book ever explain how Chakas came to be 343?

  • 01.04.2012 4:33 PM PDT

Vengeance only leads to an ongoing cycle of hatred.

I just got Primordium today. Read the first chapter. So far, so good.

  • 01.04.2012 5:13 PM PDT

Does the book ever explain how Chakas came to be 343?

Well Chakas was turned into a monitor, I assume at some point they decided to copy him and that fragment was placed as a halo guardian and is the 343 that we know today. Well until now lol

  • 01.04.2012 7:27 PM PDT

Primordium does not go into detail as far as HOW Chakas was turned into a Monitor, but one small chapter makes the reader aware of what is going on.

Additionally, at the end of the book (finished it today), you will read that just one of the Chakas Monitor's parts was that of 343 Guilty Spark. Just one!

The big question is if the 343 GS that was communicating with the humans is the exact same 343 GS of the Halo games, or a duplicate 343 GS. A small phrase does mention "343 dupe-".

How the Chakas Monitor had some of it turned into 343 GS may be told in the next novel. I also hope that the next novel finally reveals what happened to the Forerunner immediately after the activation of the Halos, because there is a lot of evidence saying not every single one died.

[Edited on 01.04.2012 9:21 PM PST]

  • 01.04.2012 9:13 PM PDT


Posted by: superman18123
Primordium does not go into detail as far as HOW Chakas was turned into a Monitor, but one small chapter makes the reader aware of what is going on.

Additionally, at the end of the book (finished it today), you will read that just one of the Chakas Monitor's parts was that of 343 Guilty Spark, and humans may have dealt with multiple Chakas Monitors so far, not just the 343 part.

How the Chakas Monitor had some of it turned into 343 GS may be told in the next novel. I also hope that the next novel finally reveals what happened to the Forerunner immediately after the activation of the Halos, because there is a lot of evidence saying not every single one died.


Yeah, like the Encyclopedia saying they're still alive.

In some way shape or form, Forerunners will appear in Halo 4, likely the Librarian (since she's apparently still alive).

  • 01.04.2012 9:16 PM PDT

The Didact may also appear. 343 says that both he and the didact love her to this day, meaning that he is still alive.

  • 01.04.2012 9:22 PM PDT

Waypoint Moderators aren't really Moderators, just power hungry and its goal is defend their beloved Halo at all costs. (Meaning that they wank Halo too much.)

BS Angel is alleged foe so, be wary of Waypoint and its moderators! Do not attempt to move to Waypoint. Enter your own risk.

*WARNING* IT IS MY OPINION.


Posted by: Onyx81

I read the Book. When did this happen? I know the Flood can selectively infect species, but when do the Flood just decide to retreat?


Tis' simple.

Flood can wish to retreat as they wish to. Remember, Timeless One want to test Humanity to see if they are worthy.

Master Bias asks you to add new background to match your Coup.

[Edited on 01.04.2012 9:26 PM PST]

  • 01.04.2012 9:25 PM PDT


Posted by: DorkLord54

Posted by: Elder Bias

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
I don't think the Flood are Precursors. Not anymore anyway. What the Precursors used to be is long gone from this world, replaced by the Flood, what they are now.

By the way I find it highly unlikely 343 is still alive after watching him explode after being shot by a Splazor like 5 times, just sayin'.


... They found damaged core and repaired it. Thus resurrecting 343 Guilty Spark. Simple as that. Even it's in Primordium.


Does the book ever explain how Chakas came to be 343?


The book is basically the story of how chakas becomes 343...

  • 01.04.2012 10:06 PM PDT


Posted by: Onyx81

Posted by: Wazooty

Posted by: Ktan Dantaktee
OK, I don't have the book yet, so tell me, WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT THE TIMELESS ONE?!?!?! And does it say anything about the Terminal 5 race?


He is a higher stage of gravemind.

All precursors may be.

Or perhaps he is simply a gravemind made of a bunch of precursors (done so on purpose, as the precursors believe the flood to be the ultimate species).

It's not completely clear, but Didact pointed out that the TO is a gravemind itself, but it was hard to tell if it was a gravemind made of precursors specifically, or if all preursors are simply advanced graveminds.

Also, he revealed to our heroes that the whole "cure" that the humans made never cured a thing. The precursors just selectively decided to stop infecting them because they seemed to be a better species to pass the mantle on to than forerunners; perhaps inspired by humanities willingness to feed the flood (2/3 the population sacrificing themselves to try and find "a cure"). To the precursors, upholding the mantle means joining with the flood, as the flood provides ultimate knowledge and ultimate peace in the galaxy. This made Didact really pissed off since countless beings have suffered and died to try and find the secret of the cure. So he disintegrated it (TO).

This does make me wonder if the humans sacrificing themselves to the flood was something they did because they thought it would actually cure them, or if they did it because the TO offered them another 100,000 years of living before they consumed them if they sacrificed a large portion of their population like so.

I read the Book. When did this happen? I know the Flood can selectively infect species, but when do the Flood just decide to retreat?


Read the last 10% of the book again. Most of the important info is in there.

  • 01.04.2012 10:06 PM PDT

Read the last 10% of the book again. Most of the important info is in there.

It DEFINITLY is, basically everything that will be talked about in any of the forums will be from the last 10%

  • 01.04.2012 11:07 PM PDT

Didact's Reprisal -
Now is the time of our unworlding
One final effort is all that remains
And I am not afraid
We shall fulfill our promise
We fight for the grace of the Mantle
And this time none of you will be left behind

There is one thing I'm not sure I understand.

If humans were meant to take up the Mantle and not yet face the Flood, why were they the first to fight it? Would the Forerunners have even run into the Flood then had the humans been left unhindered? The second question, I suppose, could be answered with the Captive's testimony.

  • 01.04.2012 11:11 PM PDT


Posted by: Im SteelAssassn
There is one thing I'm not sure I understand.

If humans were meant to take up the Mantle and not yet face the Flood, why were they the first to fight it? Would the Forerunners have even run into the Flood then had the humans been left unhindered? The second question, I suppose, could be answered with the Captive's testimony.


That is what has me stumped also, if humans were to be given the next test of the mantle then why not bypass them with the flood?

I mean sure they 'ignored' the humans once they thought they found a way to stop the flood but then why the remergance of the flood vs the humans, thats what I can't explain.

I really want someone to delve more into the precursors while leaving them still god like i.e. not from a precursor perspect as that would ruin things but switching between a forerunner view and pure observation would be great

[Edited on 01.04.2012 11:21 PM PST]

  • 01.04.2012 11:16 PM PDT

The cake is a lie!!!
Your Lack of Faith is disturbing commander you WILL join KOTOR

Protect me cone!

Please bear with me and know that Im probably going to get something wrong (I dont have the book im station on Okinawa Japan with the USMC)

so in the latest book we learned that chakas somehow became 343 or a copy of him, and that precursers, are in some way the flood, and that the librarian and possibly the didact are alive (maybe in a gease)?

  • 01.05.2012 12:38 AM PDT


Posted by: orcinmansam
Please bear with me and know that Im probably going to get something wrong (I dont have the book im station on Okinawa Japan with the USMC)

so in the latest book we learned that chakas somehow became 343 or a copy of him, and that precursers, are in some way the flood, and that the librarian and possibly the didact are alive (maybe in a gease)?


Basically all correct except that 343 was somehow made from chakas while his main being still remains so the other way around really

  • 01.05.2012 1:20 AM PDT

Old school Bungie, born and raised,
In the Septagon is where I spend most of my days.
Relaxin', maxin', posting all cool,
Talking about Halo, life and some school.
Got in one little argument, and the mods got scared,
they said "You're gonna get banned and your member title'll be bare!"

Just finished it.

Here are the important facts I pulled, mostly from the end.

***MASSIVE SPOILERS***






1.) Chakas is turned into some form of monitor

The book doesn't specifically say when this happens, but is first implied in chapter 36.

When I became fully aware of what had happened to me, I tried to suppress what little remained of my emotions... Something switched me off.

Chapter 37
And on again.

The process was instantaneous-but time had obviously passed.


Chakas realizes he's been "digitized" into a monitor.

I believe the point as which Chakas was turned into a monitor would have been after he met Mendicant Bias, the giant green-eyed, crystal thing encountered in chapter 26, page 288. There's one line that possibly details Chakas being "monitorized," page 292:

All the journeys and years ended with a burst of pain-immense pain

Another supporting quote is on 353:

"I remember the Beast-the Primordial," I said. "Does that mean I met the Captive?"

"Probably. It often leaves a memory of what it did-cruel enough."

"It did something to me-to us, didn't it?"

"Yes," the Didact said. "And we are about to meet it again."


2.)Chakas IS NOT 343 Guilty Spark

The notion that the Chakas-monitor is 343 Guilty Spark was mentioned by the human team apart of the ambiguous interrogation that the novel is being told through. It happens on page 369.

SCIENCE TEAM LEADER: "We'll need a tentative designator for the source [of the information] (Who gave the narrative that is Halo: Primordium). What are we calling it?" (The monitor)

ONI COMMANDER: "We still haven't confirmed any connection between this one and-"

SCIENCE TEAM LEADER: "I said 'tentative.'"

ONI COMMANDER: "No way in hell I'm going to confirm this is the same as the monitor found defending installation 04."

STRATEGY TEAM LEADER: "That's our working hypothesis. Should raise some eyebrows at High Command, and we need that sort of boost right now." (Introduces the prospect of Chakas-monitor being 343GS as a political move, primarily)

SCIENCE TEAM SENIOR TECH LIEUTENANT: "Sir, am I being ordered to confirm that this is-"

ONI COMMANDER: "How many of these devious bastards (monitors) are out there, anyway?"

STRATEGY TEAM LEADER: "One per Halo, so far. As for this particular monitor (confirms that Chakas is indeed a monitor)-I certainly hope it's the last. Yes! So designate. But bury it somewhere in the political report. Give us all some cover in case it blows up in our faces."


Henceforth, the monitor AI is refered to as I believe erroneously) "343 Guilty Spark." I believe it to be erroneous due to a line a few pages later, on 372.

In time, my numbness developed into something richer, something that coujld survive thousands of centuries with only a minimum of madness creeping in. To contain multitudes (The Chakas-monitor was tasked, by Didact, to keep safe any Human biological records. pg 356-7) is a definition of madness, is it not? I have rarely been able to remember which of my fragmented selves has performed any particular action.

I see in your records that one of me caused you considerable difficulty-and then, assisted you! How like us. But never did that monitor reveal its origins, or the motives behind its perverse behaviors.

Perhaps now you can guess.

As Reclaimer (In the age-old debate, I'd like to point out that this establishes Humans as Reclaimers, not just Master Chief/Spartans), is is your privilege to shrive me again-not of the flesh, long since turned to dust, but of my rich confusion of sins.


Thus establishes that Chakas-monitor is NOT 343 Guilty Spark, but that 343GS was a fragment of the prior monitor. Also note how Chakas-monitor references "sins," fitting with the names of Guilty Spark and Penitent Tangent (Halo 2). Also alludes to an explanation of 343GS's inherent instability: 343GS was "psychologically" unstable because he was the result of "psychological" instability and fragmentation?

3.) The Timeless One/Primordial/Prisoner was possibly not a Precursor

I know this is going to be the one hotly debated. Hear me out, though.

Page 363. Didact and Chakas-monitor are interrogating the recaptured Primordial.

[Didact] "You told me you were the last Precursor."

The Primordial rearranged its limbs with a leathery shuffle. Powder sifted from torso and legs (the same powder Riser recounted of in the desert-graveyard after the ship he landed on crashed?).

"How can you be the last of anything?" the Didact asked. "I see now that you are nothing more than a mash-up of old victems infected by the Flood. A Gravemind. Were all the Precursors Graveminds?"


Taking a break, this establishes that the Primordial is a Gravemind, and explains his control of the Flood. Let us resume:

Another sifting shuffle.

"Or are you after all only an imitation of a Precursor, a puppet-a reanimated corpse? Are all the Precursors gone-or is it that the Flood will make new Precursors?"

"Those who created you were defied and hunted," the Captive said. "Most were extinguished. A few fled beyond your reach. Creation continued."


Thus, the Primordial is NOT a Precursor, but a Flood Gravemind. Long ago, the Flood rose up and destroyed the Precursor. "Those who created you were defied and hunted."

The remaining Precursos, those who "fled beyond your reach," may have escaped the galaxy.

The last comment:, "Creation continued," gives me one of two impressions. Either The Precursors that fled continued creating life in other galaxies, or it was the Flood or this Gravemind that continued creating life in place of the Precursors. My money is on the former.



If anything else seems vastly important, I'll post it. If anyone wants my thoughts on the above or anything else, ask. I'd love to put in my own thoughts on such matters.

  • 01.05.2012 3:02 AM PDT

http://www.bungie.net/card/halo3/Freddy%20Dahmer.ashx


Posted by: prometheus25

"Or are you after all only an imitation of a Precursor, a puppet-a reanimated corpse? Are all the Precursors gone-or is it that the Flood will make new Precursors?"

"Those who created you were defied and hunted," the Captive said. "Most were extinguished. A few fled beyond your reach. Creation continued."[/quote]

Thus, the Primordial is NOT a Precursor, but a Flood Gravemind. Long ago, the Flood rose up and destroyed the Precursor. "Those who created you were defied and hunted."

The remaining Precursos, those who "fled beyond your reach," may have escaped the galaxy.

The last comment:, "Creation continued," gives me one of two impressions. Either The Precursors that fled continued creating life in other galaxies, or it was the Flood or this Gravemind that continued creating life in place of the Precursors. My money is on the former.



If anything else seems vastly important, I'll post it. If anyone wants my thoughts on the above or anything else, ask. I'd love to put in my own thoughts on such matters.


I totally agree that the Primordial cannot be a Precursor, Although I was quite confused as to why until I just tried to oppose your argument :)

Defied! You were monsters set upon destroying all who would assume the Mantle.

I was viewing that as the Didact referring to the Precursors and taking offense which really confused me. If, however you read it as him talking to the Gravemind (The Flood), then all the following passages about Forerunners failing and "Humans being tested next" makes sense in accordance with the Primordial being Flood and Flood and Precursors not being one in the same.

But I am still confused upon the origins of the Flood. Between the stories of Humans and the powder and the Pheru, and the possibility that Precursors created the flood.

[Edited on 01.05.2012 4:13 AM PST]

  • 01.05.2012 4:08 AM PDT

Didact's Reprisal -
Now is the time of our unworlding
One final effort is all that remains
And I am not afraid
We shall fulfill our promise
We fight for the grace of the Mantle
And this time none of you will be left behind

Posted by: prometheus25
Taking a break, this establishes that the Primordial is a Gravemind, and explains his control of the Flood. Let us resume:

Another sifting shuffle.

"Or are you after all only an imitation of a Precursor, a puppet-a reanimated corpse? Are all the Precursors gone-or is it that the Flood will make new Precursors?"

"Those who created you were defied and hunted," the Captive said. "Most were extinguished. A few fled beyond your reach. Creation continued."


Thus, the Primordial is NOT a Precursor, but a Flood Gravemind. Long ago, the Flood rose up and destroyed the Precursor. "Those who created you were defied and hunted."

The remaining Precursos, those who "fled beyond your reach," may have escaped the galaxy.

The last comment:, "Creation continued," gives me one of two impressions. Either The Precursors that fled continued creating life in other galaxies, or it was the Flood or this Gravemind that continued creating life in place of the Precursors. My money is on the former.


The Precursors being defied and hunted doesn't mean the Flood killed the Precursors. It's been established in this book not only by the Captive that the Forerunners were the ones that hunted their creators (though all that stated this may have received this information from the Captive. I'm willing to accept the Captive lies).

Additionally, when the Flood reappeared the second time around, it was from an extra-galatic source. Given this information and that the Precursors also left the galaxy, it would seem to point towards the fact Precursors are Graveminds.

  • 01.05.2012 4:53 AM PDT

http://www.bungie.net/card/halo3/Freddy%20Dahmer.ashx


Posted by: Im SteelAssassn
Posted by: prometheus25
Taking a break, this establishes that the Primordial is a Gravemind, and explains his control of the Flood. Let us resume:

Another sifting shuffle.

"Or are you after all only an imitation of a Precursor, a puppet-a reanimated corpse? Are all the Precursors gone-or is it that the Flood will make new Precursors?"

"Those who created you were defied and hunted," the Captive said. "Most were extinguished. A few fled beyond your reach. Creation continued."


Thus, the Primordial is NOT a Precursor, but a Flood Gravemind. Long ago, the Flood rose up and destroyed the Precursor. "Those who created you were defied and hunted."

The remaining Precursos, those who "fled beyond your reach," may have escaped the galaxy.

The last comment:, "Creation continued," gives me one of two impressions. Either The Precursors that fled continued creating life in other galaxies, or it was the Flood or this Gravemind that continued creating life in place of the Precursors. My money is on the former.


The Precursors being defied and hunted doesn't mean the Flood killed the Precursors. It's been established in this book not only by the Captive that the Forerunners were the ones that hunted their creators (though all that stated this may have received this information from the Captive. I'm willing to accept the Captive lies).

Additionally, when the Flood reappeared the second time around, it was from an extra-galatic source. Given this information and that the Precursors also left the galaxy, it would seem to point towards the fact Precursors are Graveminds.


But if the Precursors were graveminds, why would they create life in the galaxy just to use the flood to turn around and consume everything? Unless of course the Precursors weren't the ones who created life in the galaxy.

  • 01.05.2012 5:02 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

AVOIDING READING ALL SPOILERS.

Just posting to say my copy is in the mail and I look forward to discussing it once I'm finished.

  • 01.05.2012 5:09 AM PDT