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Subject: Did anybody else notice ths?

It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.

Posted by: chickenlittle
Cheeto is the only one among you that doesn't suck.

Nah, she got beaned. It was on the top-back of the head, where she would have had full armor protection on her helmet. The only reason it went through is because it was a direct hit, not a glancing blow.
Posted by: UphillMercury
1. Kat did not have her armour's shields activated.
2. By the looks of this video (skip to 2:58), she got shot under her helmet, in between the armour and through the titanium nanocomposite part of the amour.

We can assume that the neck area has to be thinner here to allow for flexibility, and the nanocomposite is just that: a composite, not pure titanium armour like the majority of the suit. Coupled with a lack of activated shields, is is possible.


[Edited on 01.07.2012 6:12 PM PST]

  • 01.07.2012 6:11 PM PDT


Posted by: superiorarsenal
Halo: Glasslands pg 158

Debris rained on them, rattling off his armor. Some of the Kig-Yar threw themsleves flat. Sniper Jackal tottered sideways, thrown off balance by the blast, and Mal put two shots through him. The next thing Mal heard was the whhfft-whhfft-whhfft of needle rifles discharging and something striking off his helmet.


Then further down the page:

Mal liked a woman with a positive outlook on life. Vaz moved from body to body, collecting weapons. He looked up at Mal and frowned, tapping hs helmet.
"Dent," he said, "Needle must have hit you"


So, how did a Needle rifle fire all the way THROUGH Kat's MJOLNIR Mark V helmet and her skull that has metal grafted to it, if the same rifle only causes a dent in the ODST's inferior helmet?


I agree with your point, but I have some minor corrections. One: the Spartan Twos had CERAMIC reinforcements to their skeletons, not metal. Two: Kat was not a Spartan Two, but a three, rather, and the Threes did not undergo the same enhancements as the Twos. Three: Kat is not wearing a Mark V helmet. I know, I know, that's splitting hairs, but o'm just the kind of person who points out that kind of stuff. Otherwise, yes, I do believe that whole 'Kat getting sniped' controversy just got a lot more suspicious.

  • 01.07.2012 6:56 PM PDT
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Posted by: imm4boss

Posted by: superiorarsenal
Halo: Glasslands pg 158

Debris rained on them, rattling off his armor. Some of the Kig-Yar threw themsleves flat. Sniper Jackal tottered sideways, thrown off balance by the blast, and Mal put two shots through him. The next thing Mal heard was the whhfft-whhfft-whhfft of needle rifles discharging and something striking off his helmet.


Then further down the page:

Mal liked a woman with a positive outlook on life. Vaz moved from body to body, collecting weapons. He looked up at Mal and frowned, tapping hs helmet.
"Dent," he said, "Needle must have hit you"


So, how did a Needle rifle fire all the way THROUGH Kat's MJOLNIR Mark V helmet and her skull that has metal grafted to it, if the same rifle only causes a dent in the ODST's inferior helmet?


I agree with your point, but I have some minor corrections. One: the Spartan Twos had CERAMIC reinforcements to their skeletons, not metal. Two: Kat was not a Spartan Two, but a three, rather, and the Threes did not undergo the same enhancements as the Twos. Three: Kat is not wearing a Mark V helmet. I know, I know, that's splitting hairs, but o'm just the kind of person who points out that kind of stuff. Otherwise, yes, I do believe that whole 'Kat getting sniped' controversy just got a lot more suspicious.


1) Sorry, I meant ceramic
2) She had S-II genes, which caused roughly the same effects. But Ceramic grafting WAS one of the bio-aug procedures for the IIIs, even though I am still puzzled on how injections can do that.
3)Yes it is a Mark V helmet varient.


Still, no one has addressed my problem with the intended purpose of the Needle Rifle, and the clear problem with it.

  • 01.07.2012 8:58 PM PDT

It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.

Posted by: chickenlittle
Cheeto is the only one among you that doesn't suck.

The intended purpose of the Needle Rifle was to create a mid ranged battle rifle that was accurate, but maintained the properties of the original needler if the shard remained intact when it hit its target.

I see no problem with its function, or the way it is used, as it fills the role it was designed for perfectly. It's not a sniper weapon, but a DMR. It's about as close to a sniper as you can get without being a sniper or sacrificing the capabilities of an assault rifle.
Posted by: superiorarsenal

Still, no one has addressed my problem with the intended purpose of the Needle Rifle, and the clear problem with it.

  • 01.07.2012 9:24 PM PDT

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If you're reading this, you need to stop stalking me. If you can't stop stalking me, you might as well go here.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Posted by: HipiO7
Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Ricochet.

Same reason that guy from Saving Private Ryan ended up only with a dent in his helmet even when a MG-42 machine gun shot him: it glanced off.

He then promptly got drilled through the skull, but that's beside the point.

inb4unabashedGlasslandshaters


*Round ricochets*

''You lucky bastard.''

That was actually a great example, Rob.


Always found that scene to be unfortunately funny. It's sort of as if, as I'm laughing at the irony of his death, all the while I'm thinking "I am so going to Hell for this..."

Thanks, though; it makes sense too when you consider the technological difference. WWII helmets, WWII weapons.

Futuristic space helmets, futuristic space weapons.
I was actually thinking of that exact scene from Saving Private Ryan when I read the OP.

  • 01.07.2012 10:00 PM PDT
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Don't be stupid like I was! Check to see what that Forum Ninja is saying to you!

"I may not like what you say, but I will defend your right to the death to say it!"

"Tolerance is a virtue, and virtue builds character."
-Onyx81

Still, if you shoot a grunt in the hand, the Needle doesn't go through, nor if you shoot an Elite in the exposed part.

  • 01.08.2012 11:07 AM PDT
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Posted by: Cheeto666
The intended purpose of the Needle Rifle was to create a mid ranged battle rifle that was accurate, but maintained the properties of the original needler if the shard remained intact when it hit its target.

I see no problem with its function, or the way it is used, as it fills the role it was designed for perfectly. It's not a sniper weapon, but a DMR. It's about as close to a sniper as you can get without being a sniper or sacrificing the capabilities of an assault rifle.
Posted by: superiorarsenal

Still, no one has addressed my problem with the intended purpose of the Needle Rifle, and the clear problem with it.


The Carbine fits that role.

The developers obviously designed to be a weapon that you intend on sticking the shards into people in hopes to get it to explode. If the shards would go through almost 100% of the time, why have its purpose as a weapon that you are supposed to stick into the enemy. It would have been much better if they just kept the Carbine instead of making the needle rifle.

  • 01.08.2012 12:42 PM PDT

Posted by: ElementalRunner

Posted by: Commander Stroll
Still using a pump-action shotgun over 500 years in the future I see.

omg not realistic stop game production plz

Angles OP...

Clearly the Needle fired at Kat was straight forward at her helmet.

However Mal got lucky, the Needle was fired at an angle near-perpendicular to the curve of his ODST helmet, so the kinetic energy of the needle barely transfers to the helmet.

Thus causing only a dent.

  • 01.08.2012 12:46 PM PDT
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Posted by: CoolCJ24
Angles OP...

Clearly the Needle fired at Kat was straight forward at her helmet.

However Mal got lucky, the Needle was fired at an angle near-perpendicular to the curve of his ODST helmet, so the kinetic energy of the needle barely transfers to the helmet.

Thus causing only a dent.


As I've acknowledged and accept. So why don't we move onto the thing I'm ACTUALLY hung up on, rather than dwelling in the past.

  • 01.08.2012 12:53 PM PDT

I LOVE HALO! Better than any other game.

But I love Halo 3 and Combat Evolved - never got the chance to play Halo 2 :(

The shot could have been at an angle. Needle rifle rounds aren't guided, unlike needlers. Nice observations, though! :)

  • 01.08.2012 1:17 PM PDT

Hey, now!

This is officially either the greatest or worst thing to ever happen to Star Wars. I'm going with the former.


Posted by: superiorarsenal


1) Sorry, I meant ceramic
2) She had S-II genes, which caused roughly the same effects. But Ceramic grafting WAS one of the bio-aug procedures for the IIIs, even though I am still puzzled on how injections can do that.
3)Yes it is a Mark V helmet varient.


Still, no one has addressed my problem with the intended purpose of the Needle Rifle, and the clear problem with it.

Dude, what is with you and genes?

Nowhere does it ever say that Kat or any other member of Noble team had 'Spartan II genes'. Nowhere has it said that their 'genes' were what lead them to be transferred to Noble. Nowhere.
If you have a real source, citation, whatever that clearly states said facts, than please, present it. Otherwise, all you have is your opinion, which isn't enough.


Also, I don't really understand what your problem with the NR is. What exactly is your issue with it? As it has been said before, it is essentially like the DMR, mid range marksman rifle. And yes, it is similar to the carbine.

[Edited on 01.08.2012 1:30 PM PST]

  • 01.08.2012 1:24 PM PDT

I suspect llamas are secretly wizards. I <3 poptarts n' milk. I like me. Grimick is defined as: a logical parodox, the act of funnaling a potato down your throat, and a deliciously flavored muffin (with pecons and blueberries). Norway is the Swedish word for 'moron'. My sister has cancer, so i get to use handicap parking and cut small children in line at Disneyland.

"Don't eat doughnuts on thin ice."

"The pancake, my friend, has officially been flipped."

The ODST was on the floor below Kat. The Needle passed all the way through Kat's head and the floor and dented the ODST's helmet. Duh :)

  • 01.08.2012 1:57 PM PDT
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Posted by: thebobafettest

Posted by: superiorarsenal


1) Sorry, I meant ceramic
2) She had S-II genes, which caused roughly the same effects. But Ceramic grafting WAS one of the bio-aug procedures for the IIIs, even though I am still puzzled on how injections can do that.
3)Yes it is a Mark V helmet varient.


Still, no one has addressed my problem with the intended purpose of the Needle Rifle, and the clear problem with it.

Dude, what is with you and genes?

Nowhere does it ever say that Kat or any other member of Noble team had 'Spartan II genes'. Nowhere has it said that their 'genes' were what lead them to be transferred to Noble. Nowhere.
If you have a real source, citation, whatever that clearly states said facts, than please, present it. Otherwise, all you have is your opinion, which isn't enough.


Also, I don't really understand what your problem with the NR is. What exactly is your issue with it? As it has been said before, it is essentially like the DMR, mid range marksman rifle. And yes, it is similar to the carbine.


Only that they determine the effects of augmentation.

Kurt's Letter

"You know as well as I do that we wind up with some that she would have been chosen-not just kids unlucky enough to survive a glassing"


I don't have a problem with the NR as a weapon really, just that it is displayed as a DMR that the projectiles stick into targets, rather than an AP DMR. The Carbine isn't too similar, besides the designation of Carbine/DMR and the fact that the NR is based on the Carbine. The Carbine fires a radioactive round, far different from the needle fired by the NR. But I guess ingame use is the same, though I would prefer the carbine.

  • 01.08.2012 2:10 PM PDT

Platinum pwnz

when they state the term "Sniper Jackals", they mean Jackals equipped with Particle Beam Rifles, not needle rifles. The needle was probably fired from a needler, which is considerably less powerful than a needle rifle, as everyone knows.

  • 01.08.2012 2:27 PM PDT
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"Sniper Jackel" was an individual, or rather, that was the name they gave him. Know why? He was holding a UNSC sniper rifle. There were others in the goup holding Needle Rifles.

  • 01.08.2012 2:54 PM PDT

Bout the dent in helm, still think it could've been caused by the debris falling.

Bout needle rifle going through people, maybe this.

It's designed to go through targets first and foremost, HOWEVER, if it doesn't that's when they go for the supercombine/shard exploding.

Basically a "If it survives and doesn't get sliced through, the needle explodes hopefully damaging it more/killing it."

  • 01.08.2012 3:21 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Bout the dent in helm, still think it could've been caused by the debris falling.

Bout needle rifle going through people, maybe this.

It's designed to go through targets first and foremost, HOWEVER, if it doesn't that's when they go for the supercombine/shard exploding.

Basically a "If it survives and doesn't get sliced through, the needle explodes hopefully damaging it more/killing it."


The Needle property would be the most damaging thing, so why would they make that the secondary? I hope you realise that AP/FMJ/AM rounds that merely "pass through" soft targets are not as damaging as things like Hollow-points, or rather in this case, large needles that explode. I would rather be hit by the needle round and have it go through me, then have it stick in me then explode.

  • 01.08.2012 3:27 PM PDT

Hey, now!

This is officially either the greatest or worst thing to ever happen to Star Wars. I'm going with the former.


Posted by: superiorarsenal

Only that they determine the effects of augmentation.

Kurt's Letter

"You know as well as I do that we wind up with some that she would have been chosen-not just kids unlucky enough to survive a glassing"


I don't have a problem with the NR as a weapon really, just that it is displayed as a DMR that the projectiles stick into targets, rather than an AP DMR. The Carbine isn't too similar, besides the designation of Carbine/DMR and the fact that the NR is based on the Carbine. The Carbine fires a radioactive round, far different from the needle fired by the NR. But I guess ingame use is the same, though I would prefer the carbine.

You've shown that letter before, and there is still no reason to believe that Kurt is talking about genetics.

In fact, genetics, genes, augmentations, or anything involving Project Chrysanthemum is never mentioned at all, and 'some that she would have been chosen' is very shaky ground, because genetics were not the only factor of the SII project, and they were not necessarily talking about Noble, just the SIII's in general.

Again, the reason that Noble was chosen was because they were exceptional operators first and foremost, not because of genetics.

  • 01.08.2012 3:36 PM PDT
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Posted by: thebobafettest

Posted by: superiorarsenal

Only that they determine the effects of augmentation.

Kurt's Letter

"You know as well as I do that we wind up with some that she would have been chosen-not just kids unlucky enough to survive a glassing"


I don't have a problem with the NR as a weapon really, just that it is displayed as a DMR that the projectiles stick into targets, rather than an AP DMR. The Carbine isn't too similar, besides the designation of Carbine/DMR and the fact that the NR is based on the Carbine. The Carbine fires a radioactive round, far different from the needle fired by the NR. But I guess ingame use is the same, though I would prefer the carbine.

You've shown that letter before, and there is still no reason to believe that Kurt is talking about genetics.

In fact, genetics, genes, augmentations, or anything involving Project Chrysanthemum is never mentioned at all, and 'some that she would have been chosen' is very shaky ground, because genetics were not the only factor of the SII project, and they were not necessarily talking about Noble, just the SIII's in general.

Again, the reason that Noble was chosen was because they were exceptional operators first and foremost, not because of genetics.


Are you serious? Shaky ground? you had to have basically perfect genes for her to even CONSIDER considering you for the project. If she would have chosen them, that means they would have needed to fill out the genetic requirement. If they did not have the perfect genes, she would not have shosen them.

Hmmm, *gasp* it couldn't be that they were so succesful because they got an edge in from the augmentaions because of their genes? How dare I speak such heresy.

  • 01.08.2012 4:03 PM PDT

Hey, now!

This is officially either the greatest or worst thing to ever happen to Star Wars. I'm going with the former.


Posted by: superiorarsenal
Are you serious? Shaky ground? you had to have basically perfect genes for her to even CONSIDER considering you for the project. If she would have chosen them, that means they would have needed to fill out the genetic requirement. If they did not have the perfect genes, she would not have shosen them.

Hmmm, *gasp* it couldn't be that they were so succesful because they got an edge in from the augmentaions because of their genes? How dare I speak such heresy.

Easy, man. What's with all the hostility?

The fact is that Noble was better operators than their peers, plain and simple. It's the same way that professional athletes are chosen-because they are the best. They might not be the most athletic or good with other endeavors, but they get the job done in their chosen sport.


Not because of genetics. You seem to have the idea that that Noble was so successful was the fact they had 'Spartan II genes', which I find extremely unlikely.

Genetics could impact the effects of augmentations, and thus performance, but the SII augs had evolved to the point of high performance for a broader spectrum of subjects, whether said subjects where selected because of genetics or not, which is still debatable.

And my shaky ground comment stands. All you are doing is speculating immensely about a single throwaway line in a minor piece of canon that formulates your entire argument, which might(and probably) doesn't even concern Noble Team. If you have any other sources that support your argument, please present them.

[Edited on 01.08.2012 4:39 PM PST]

  • 01.08.2012 4:27 PM PDT
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Posted by: thebobafettest

Posted by: superiorarsenal
Are you serious? Shaky ground? you had to have basically perfect genes for her to even CONSIDER considering you for the project. If she would have chosen them, that means they would have needed to fill out the genetic requirement. If they did not have the perfect genes, she would not have shosen them.

Hmmm, *gasp* it couldn't be that they were so succesful because they got an edge in from the augmentaions because of their genes? How dare I speak such heresy.

Easy, man. What's with all the hostility?

The fact is that Noble was better operators than their peers, plain and simple. It's the same way that professional athletes are chosen-because they are the best. They might not be the most athletic or good with other endeavors, but they get the job done in their chosen sport.


Not because of genetics. You seem to have the idea that that Noble was so successful was the fact they had 'Spartan II genes'. That is completely untrue.

Genetics could impact the effects of augmentations, and thus performance, but the SII augs had evolved to the point of high performance for a broader spectrum of subjects, whether said subjects where selected because of genetics or not, which is still debatable.

And my shaky ground comment stands. All you are doing is speculating immensely about a single throwaway line in a minor piece of canon that formulates your entire argument, which might(and probably) doesn't even concern Noble Team. If you have any other sources that support your argument, please present them.


You are mistaking my love of debate with hostility. I don't feel any hostile feelings toward you, quite the contrary actually.

Top athletes are often the product of BOTH natural skill(genes) AND hard work/devotion. The superior genes could very well have allowed them to rise up from their peers. This was the case for many of the S-IIs before they had been abducted. John was winning just about everything against all his peers. Kelly was naturally faster than her peers. Soren was pre-disposed to stealth/survival. Mike was naturally able to be able to work with just about any technology. Even Halsey was naturally a genius. Genes factor A LOT into things.

Is it? If it made them stronger, faster, and smarter, wouldn't that play a big role in their preformance?

The S-II augs did not "evolve," but were rather administered chemically rather than surgically. And as we can see from the difference of results on the S-IIs and the labels of the augmentations, their genes allowed for a greater effect.

A single throwaway line? Halsey ONLY ever considered those that had perfect genes. She ONLY looked at the 150 that fit the genetic requirements. From there, she chose the best of the "genetically perfect". The fact stands that Halsey(And if you read Glasslands, and saw how adamant Halsey was about genes) would only choose those that have the perfect genes. If they were to even be considered for selection by Halsey, they absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, no exceptions, needed to fill her genetic requirements. About not concerning NOBLE Team, it was released WITH their profiles, which, you know, kinda indicates its about them.

  • 01.08.2012 4:48 PM PDT

Hey, now!

This is officially either the greatest or worst thing to ever happen to Star Wars. I'm going with the former.


Posted by: superiorarsenal
You are mistaking my love of debate with hostility. I don't feel any hostile feelings toward you, quite the contrary actually.

Top athletes are often the product of BOTH natural skill(genes) AND hard work/devotion. The superior genes could very well have allowed them to rise up from their peers. This was the case for many of the S-IIs before they had been abducted. John was winning just about everything against all his peers. Kelly was naturally faster than her peers. Soren was pre-disposed to stealth/survival. Mike was naturally able to be able to work with just about any technology. Even Halsey was naturally a genius. Genes factor A LOT into things.

Is it? If it made them stronger, faster, and smarter, wouldn't that play a big role in their preformance?

The S-II augs did not "evolve," but were rather administered chemically rather than surgically. And as we can see from the difference of results on the S-IIs and the labels of the augmentations, their genes allowed for a greater effect.

A single throwaway line? Halsey ONLY ever considered those that had perfect genes. She ONLY looked at the 150 that fit the genetic requirements. From there, she chose the best of the "genetically perfect". The fact stands that Halsey(And if you read Glasslands, and saw how adamant Halsey was about genes) would only choose those that have the perfect genes. If they were to even be considered for selection by Halsey, they absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, no exceptions, needed to fill her genetic requirements. About not concerning NOBLE Team, it was released WITH their profiles, which, you know, kinda indicates its about them.

Skill =/= Genes, and vice versa. Genes only influence, not decide. I'm not sure that someone can be 'naturally' gifted with an affinity with technology, as I don't think that genes actually affect that, the same with 'stealth'.

I do agree with your dedication comment, though, as that is obviously a big part of any form of success.

The difference with chemically induced augmentation from surgically enhanced application in itself an evolution, as is the fact that not a single SIII died during the augmentation procedures, which also indicates advances.

Yes, it was released with their profiles, but look at everything that doesn't have anything to do with Noble. Namely, the second and third paragraphs, which deal with Operation TORPEDO and Ackerson respectively, which brings in to doubt said line about 'Halsey's chosen.'


In conclusion, I doubt that there will be a conclusive resolution one way or another with the canon available today without a broad deal of speculation, but could be elaborated upon in the future.

  • 01.08.2012 5:40 PM PDT
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Didn't want to do this, but I guess I'm forced to dish out some psychology.

In the field of psychology, a lot revolves around one thing. Nature(Genes) vs Nurture(Upbringing/environment).

Now anybody with half a brain would say that that each individual is both a combination of their genes and upbringing.
However, in this case we have a chance to eliminate the Nuture factor when comparing things. All S-IIs and all S-IIIs had roughly the same upbringing. They all tried, trained, and preformed as hard as they could and as best they could. It's one of the traits that define SPARTANs. However, those that rise above the peers that are working just as hard as they are by their genes. It is true that some people are just born faster, born stronger, born smarter. Its these superior genes that allow them to rise up and preform better than those that are trying just as hard, if not harder. Carter is NATURAlLY a leader. Kat is NATURALLY good with technology. Jun is NATURALLY a sniper. See the trend here? SPARTANs are trained in the specialization that came naturally to them. Genes are a HUGE factor for SPARTANs. Thier genes are what ultimately set them apart from their peers and develop their specializations. This is also true for augmentations. No different type of teaching would change the outcome of a bioaugmentation. The genes are the sole determinent. You can't raise someone to no longer be Lactose Intolerant, you can't teach them to have better vision. The only things that determines that are the genes. Sure you can work hard and try to get around your disadvantage, but if someone has better genes, and they are working just as hard, they will be better.

  • 01.08.2012 6:05 PM PDT

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