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  • Subject: Why all the hate on Glasslands
Subject: Why all the hate on Glasslands

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

Or ONI ends up fueling Elite hate of humanity, causing them to unite and overwhelm Earth again.

With any action ONI takes, there are a lot of ifs ands and buts. Supplying the Elites with arms could also result in them believing the Covenant is great again since the humans are filth, but the far more probable outcome is instability within the order.

It seems many people on this forum want to homogenize an entire species in the Universe into a single monotonic mindset; that's not how things actually work.

  • 01.16.2012 5:21 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

No, but I expect the factions to learn from what happened in the Human-Covenant War, especially the Elites. The Prophets lied and betrayed the Elites, yet now we see Elites like Jul who sound EXACTLY like them. Do the Elites who found humanity honorable no longer exist? Where is the growing Elite youth movement who are human sympathizers? All this vitriol would be easier to stomach if those groups were equally represented.

This is my assumption, but it makes sense:

Traviss seems to focus on perspectives which are not given much attention are are not as well known. So, with the Sangheili-Human relationship after the war, there obviously human sympathizers since Elites and Humans fought side by side to take down Truth. Traviss focused on the faction which was not of the opinion that humans were worthy allies. It is incredibly disingenuous to say that there was not representation of both camps, as Thel was clearly looking for peace - even so much as to offer Phillips the chance to study Sangheili culture on the planet at the end.

The time allotted to both points of view were not equal, but, like I just said, Traviss focused on the lesser known perspective.

Nope, yet the reasoning behind such hatred is vague and based upon lies.
How so? There is still a faction of the Sangheili order which believes that the Forerunner artifacts are of incredible religious value; that does not necessarily mean they support the Covenant still because the Sangheili thought this even before they were in the Covenant. The accusation that humanity were liars was not false in the slightest, and that can be proven by the actual plot events of the novel regarding Osman's mission.

Unless 'Telcam shows proof that humanity is trying to tear them apart, leaving Thel without any support, which seems to lack in the first place.
How is 'Telcam going to show proof, exactly? If anything, the novel depicted that humans are significantly more intelligent than the Sangheili - symbolically represented by the arum that Phillips could solve very quickly and Sangheili struggled with for months. Thel would likely believe the humans over 'Telcam given that showing five crates of plasma rifles does not exactly show human dealings.

  • 01.16.2012 5:31 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Plasma Prestige
It seems many people on this forum want to homogenize an entire species in the Universe into a single monotonic mindset; that's not how things actually work.

No one is doing that. I dislike the novel becuase it does exactly that. I was looking forward to some real splits post Halo 3, some actual diversity rather than this "one species, one culture" rubbish but alas.

  • 01.16.2012 5:32 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Plasma Prestige

It seems many people on this forum want to homogenize an entire species in the Universe into a single monotonic mindset; that's not how things actually work.



Yet majority of humans hate elites from the war right?


It is the fact with the elites not acting as they have been portrayed. Hell, Ripa showed the ruthlessness of the Elites in which you could further deduce that their honor and morals are the only true difference between them and the Brutes.

The cowardice and childish midset showed in Glasslands could just show how stupid the elites are without blindly following something.

  • 01.16.2012 5:32 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Plasma Prestige

It seems many people on this forum want to homogenize an entire species in the Universe into a single monotonic mindset; that's not how things actually work.



Yet majority of humans hate elites from the war right?


It is the fact with the elites not acting as they have been portrayed. Hell, Ripa showed the ruthlessness of the Elites in which you could further deduce that their honor and morals are the only true difference between them and the Brutes.

The cowardice and childish midset showed in Glasslands could just show how stupid the elites are without blindly following something.

Sure, the majority of the humans that were almost killed by them or saw their comrades killed by them. Of course there will be majorities and minorities, especially after the war. My point, however, is that people tend to completely homogenize species - Brutes never working for Elites, for example.

What "childish" mindset are you talking about that is new to Glasslands? The Sangheili mindset has always been childish, as demonstrated by Ripa especially. In fact, Glasslands even emphasizes how much more intelligent humans are than the Sangheili (the arum).

  • 01.16.2012 5:38 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Plasma Prestige
It seems many people on this forum want to homogenize an entire species in the Universe into a single monotonic mindset; that's not how things actually work.

No one is doing that. I dislike the novel becuase it does exactly that. I was looking forward to some real splits post Halo 3, some actual diversity rather than this "one species, one culture" rubbish but alas.

Just because Traviss focused on one perspective does not imply the absence of other perspectives! This has been my general point to all these criticisms. You can hardly support the claim that all Sangheili hate humans based on the fact that the only three to four that were present as main characters hated humans.

Then we have ONI who wanted to breed instability while we had Lord Hood who, like Thel, genuinely wanted peace.

  • 01.16.2012 5:41 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Plasma Prestige
- Brutes never working for Elites, for example.

What "childish" mindset are you talking about that is new to Glasslands? The Sangheili mindset has always been childish, as demonstrated by Ripa especially. In fact, Glasslands even emphasizes how much more intelligent humans are than the Sangheili (the arum).



Which he don't like because the two races despise each other and have an ancient feud. Plus it makes nonsense, Brutes killed thousands of the elites in the civil war and even ate some of the Councillors.

I don't care if the brutes on Sanghelios were involved or not, for them to still trust them after that yet hate humanity is stupid. The tension between those two had been going on far longer than the war not to mention the brutes killed more, thus, i don't understand how they can be trusted over us.

Why isn't that rational applied to us? Not all humans were involved in the war nor did they want to be, so why don't the elites just hate our military?


Where are the Elites been childish? How would Ripa be childish? I was saying childish for the the reasons they hate humanity. Which, in Glasslands they hate us because in their logic had they bet us sooner the covenant wouldn't have disbanded and they wouldn't be in that mess. THAT is a childish approach not fit for such a race bent on honor like the elites. They should be commending us and giving us some respect instead of making petty excuses.

  • 01.16.2012 5:46 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Plasma Prestige

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Plasma Prestige
It seems many people on this forum want to homogenize an entire species in the Universe into a single monotonic mindset; that's not how things actually work.

No one is doing that. I dislike the novel becuase it does exactly that. I was looking forward to some real splits post Halo 3, some actual diversity rather than this "one species, one culture" rubbish but alas.

Just because Traviss focused on one perspective does not imply the absence of other perspectives!


Which is what we have been getting at and you haven't understood. She is too narrow in her writing.

  • 01.16.2012 5:49 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Plasma Prestige

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Plasma Prestige
It seems many people on this forum want to homogenize an entire species in the Universe into a single monotonic mindset; that's not how things actually work.

No one is doing that. I dislike the novel becuase it does exactly that. I was looking forward to some real splits post Halo 3, some actual diversity rather than this "one species, one culture" rubbish but alas.

Just because Traviss focused on one perspective does not imply the absence of other perspectives!


Which is what we have been getting at and you haven't understood. She is too narrow in her writing.

Depth over breadth. Maybe I'm being a little too optimistic here, but it seems she understands that the hardcore fans that read the novel understand that there are conflicting perspectives that she has not touched upon. The real concern would be newfound fans.

  • 01.16.2012 5:56 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Plasma Prestige

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Plasma Prestige

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Plasma Prestige
It seems many people on this forum want to homogenize an entire species in the Universe into a single monotonic mindset; that's not how things actually work.

No one is doing that. I dislike the novel becuase it does exactly that. I was looking forward to some real splits post Halo 3, some actual diversity rather than this "one species, one culture" rubbish but alas.

Just because Traviss focused on one perspective does not imply the absence of other perspectives!


Which is what we have been getting at and you haven't understood. She is too narrow in her writing.

Depth over breadth. Maybe I'm being a little too optimistic here, but it seems she understands that the hardcore fans that read the novel understand that there are conflicting perspectives that she has not touched upon. The real concern would be newfound fans.



I think your problem is that your are trying to defend the novel without honestly understanding WHY we have issues with it. I ask you, Have you ever seen me speak ill of a book before Glasslands? Have i Ever picked a book apart and ripped the author?


You all know me and know i haven't done that, so i would like to think when i start getting tight with something people take notice.


The Grunts started a rebellion and in return for their courage the elites gave them more respect and they were pushed down into lower ranks to control them. I see no respect being offered to humanity for being worthy combatants and lasting so long. All that is done is them comparing us to the flood in how we control planets, which makes nonsense seeing how they should have far more planets than us.

  • 01.16.2012 6:00 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

Which he don't like because the two races despise each other and have an ancient feud. Plus it makes nonsense, Brutes killed thousands of the elites in the civil war and even ate some of the Councillors.
Okay? The civil war was not instigated by the Brutes, it was 100% instigated by the Prophets, and Brutes were so vicious because a) they're brutes, and b) they had been tired of being the lower tier of the Covenant for so long.

I don't care if the brutes on Sanghelios were involved or not, for them to still trust them after that yet hate humanity is stupid. The tension between those two had been going on far longer than the war not to mention the brutes killed more, thus, i don't understand how they can be trusted over us.

I fail to see how the Sangheili trusted the Brutes. They were slaves doing insignificant work. They weren't allies or even in okay terms. At least Thel had invited humans to the home planet for negotiations; how do you think it would have gone with the public if Jiralhanae were invited?

Where are the Elites been childish? How would Ripa be childish? I was saying childish for the the reasons they hate humanity. Which, in Glasslands they hate us because in their logic had they bet us sooner the covenant wouldn't have disbanded and they wouldn't be in that mess. THAT is a childish approach not fit for such a race bent on honor like the elites. They should be commending us and giving us some respect instead of making petty excuses.

Again, you're making sweeping generalizations. Thel clearly commended the humans in Glasslands, and last time I checked, he was in power and had at least some support.

The main focus of the narrative were angry Sangheili who did not think logically, but not all humans thought logically either (Vaz is a great example of stupidity). Do you honestly expect the entire Sangheili order to start respecting humans after there had been a war with billions dead?


  • 01.16.2012 6:02 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

I think your problem is that your are trying to defend the novel without honestly understanding WHY we have issues with it. I ask you, Have you ever seen me speak ill of a book before Glasslands? Have i Ever picked a book apart and ripped the author?
Perhaps not another novel - because none have actually come out for six years with a comprehensive story. Cryptum does not count since it was basically creating a new story from scratch. You have, however, had nothing but bad things to say about Reach (as have I in the past, but now I give the game credit where it is deserved).

The Grunts started a rebellion and in return for their courage the elites gave them more respect and they were pushed down into lower ranks to control them. I see no respect being offered to humanity for being worthy combatants and lasting so long. All that is done is them comparing us to the flood in how we control planets, which makes nonsense seeing how they should have far more planets than us.
Grey, the Elites were killing us by incinerating our planets, and now they have allowed a human to study their home-world. Also, you are making generalizations again. The novel focused on a single faction of fanatics. You can either criticize the book for having a too narrow perspective, or you can criticize the book for making all the Elites hate humans, but you cannot logically use both simultaneously.

Also, I have problems with Glasslands too, just not problems that I feel are just nitpicking on the new author (the Brute thing is not an issue). Lucy punching Halsey in the face and the seed of Mendez and Halsey's spiteful relationship are much more important issues. Yes, you've talked about them, but some of this nonsense is a simply a waste of time to discuss.


  • 01.16.2012 6:10 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Plasma Prestige
Which he don't like because the two races despise each other and have an ancient feud. Plus it makes nonsense, Brutes killed thousands of the elites in the civil war and even ate some of the Councillors.
Okay? The civil war was not instigated by the Brutes, it was 100% instigated by the Prophets, and Brutes were so vicious because a) they're brutes, and b) they had been tired of being the lower tier of the Covenant for so long.

I don't care if the brutes on Sanghelios were involved or not, for them to still trust them after that yet hate humanity is stupid. The tension between those two had been going on far longer than the war not to mention the brutes killed more, thus, i don't understand how they can be trusted over us.

I fail to see how the Sangheili trusted the Brutes. They were slaves doing insignificant work. They weren't allies or even in okay terms. At least Thel had invited humans to the home planet for negotiations; how do you think it would have gone with the public if Jiralhanae were invited?

Where are the Elites been childish? How would Ripa be childish? I was saying childish for the the reasons they hate humanity. Which, in Glasslands they hate us because in their logic had they bet us sooner the covenant wouldn't have disbanded and they wouldn't be in that mess. THAT is a childish approach not fit for such a race bent on honor like the elites. They should be commending us and giving us some respect instead of making petty excuses.

Again, you're making sweeping generalizations. Thel clearly commended the humans in Glasslands, and last time I checked, he was in power and had at least some support.

The main focus of the narrative were angry Sangheili who did not think logically, but not all humans thought logically either (Vaz is a great example of stupidity). Do you honestly expect the entire Sangheili order to start respecting humans after there had been a war with billions dead?




We didn't start the covenant war either yet they have an issue with us. It is the fact that Truth Started favoring the Brutes over the Sangheili, which is going to cause problems for an honor bound race.


"I fail to see how the Sangheili trusted the Brutes".
Well they are on their homeworld fixing ships and tending fields. I wouldn't let an ancient enemy of mine have control over my food or technology nor would i let him lightyears near my homeworld. The title of "Slave" means nothing, they trust that the Brutes will tend the fields, They trust that they will fix the ships when told to do so. The Brutes have the elites by the balls right now.


I don't remember Thel commending the humans in Glasslands. When i say commend i am talking about something like This. Instead they just whine about how it is our fault they have fell so low in the last few eons. That wouldn't be an issue if Karen wasn't so lazy and just put in a chapter or two with random elites from the other side of the spectrum commenting on it.

I haven't seen you state how the elite mindset is "childish". Though if i cared i could call you a hypocrite for generalizing.

From what was established about the Elites until Glasslands yes. They had no problem Giving the Grunts respect after several rebellions.

[Edited on 01.16.2012 6:13 PM PST]

  • 01.16.2012 6:11 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Plasma Prestige
I think your problem is that your are trying to defend the novel without honestly understanding WHY we have issues with it. I ask you, Have you ever seen me speak ill of a book before Glasslands? Have i Ever picked a book apart and ripped the author?
Perhaps not another novel - because none have actually come out for six years with a comprehensive story. Cryptum does not count since it was basically creating a new story from scratch. You have, however, had nothing but bad things to say about Reach (as have I in the past, but now I give the game credit where it is deserved).

The Grunts started a rebellion and in return for their courage the elites gave them more respect and they were pushed down into lower ranks to control them. I see no respect being offered to humanity for being worthy combatants and lasting so long. All that is done is them comparing us to the flood in how we control planets, which makes nonsense seeing how they should have far more planets than us.
Grey, the Elites were killing us by incinerating our planets, and now they have allowed a human to study their home-world. Also, you are making generalizations again. The novel focused on a single faction of fanatics. You can either criticize the book for having a too narrow perspective, or you can criticize the book for making all the Elites hate humans, but you cannot logically use both simultaneously.

Also, I have problems with Glasslands too, just not problems that I feel are just nitpicking on the new author (the Brute thing is not an issue). Lucy punching Halsey in the face and the seed of Mendez and Halsey's spiteful relationship are much more important issues. Yes, you've talked about them, but some of this nonsense is a simply a waste of time to discuss.




Um Glasslands created a new story yet you have no issue counting that. My main Gripe with Reach is The PoA and the significance of finding halo, do not bunch me in with those other animals.


Yes I can. Karen failed to offer points of view to give the reader more sides of the conflict and come to their own understanding of it. For example the last novel of the Eragon books has several characters disscussing Magic and how it should be governed. Some characters thing the world would be better without it,some say it should be managed, and others wonder what if everybody could use magic.


Viewpoints were given along with the context of why that character feels a certain way. From that you can make your own opinion on the matter yet sympathize with the others since they MAKE SENSE. I would just make it to where everybody can use magic while a friend of mine would remove it, yet we don't argue because we understand each others reasoning.


That was completely absent from Glasslands. I will hold you to "The Brutes aren't an issue" right now, and if we find out that Brutes attacked at the end of the novel then i will PM you this thread and highlight what i said about them.

  • 01.16.2012 6:21 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

Well they are on their homeworld fixing ships and tending fields. I wouldn't let an ancient enemy of mine have control over my food or technology nor would i let him lightyears near my homeworld. The title of "Slave" means nothing, they trust that the Brutes will tend the fields, They trust that they will fix the ships when told to do so. The Brutes have the elites by the balls right now.

Hell, African Americans were not trusted in the slightest during times of slavery; any tampering would be dealt with incredible severity. The Brutes don't have the Elites by the balls because the fact of the matter is that - without the Covenant - the Brutes are not even a threat technologically to the humans, much less the Elites who almost beat the San Shyuum.

I don't remember Thel commending the humans in Glasslands. When i say commend i am talking about something like This. Instead they just whine about how it is our fault they have fell so low in the last few eons. That wouldn't be an issue if Karen wasn't so lazy and just put in a chapter or two with random elites from the other side of the spectrum commenting on it.

I don't have an exact page number because my copy is digital, but I recall that Thel said that not all humans were cowards because without some courageous humans he could not have killed Truth (right when he returned to Sanghelios, I believe). It definitely was not the Unyielding trailer, but it was commending the humans nonetheless.

I haven't seen you state how the elite mindset is "childish". Though if i cared i could call you a hypocrite for generalizing.

And your accusation would be baseless. The system of honor the Sangheili believe in are about as obsolete as the chivalric codes of the Middle Ages. Perhaps "childish" is not the best word, but certainly obsolete and impractical. That is the mindset as a whole, not the entirety of the Sangheili people, I am criticizing.

Anyways, been a pleasure as always having a conversation. I'm going to go to bed seeing as I have exams all this week. I will try to come back on sometime to resume our discussion. Take care.

  • 01.16.2012 6:28 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Plasma Prestige
Just because Traviss focused on one perspective does not imply the absence of other perspectives! This has been my general point to all these criticisms. You can hardly support the claim that all Sangheili hate humans based on the fact that the only three to four that were present as main characters hated humans.

Then we have ONI who wanted to breed instability while we had Lord Hood who, like Thel, genuinely wanted peace.

Traviss did not focus on one perspective, she created one perspective. Using Phillips she basically describes to the reader what the present consensus is within the Sangheili about Humanity. It is in Chapter 4 somewhere. Phillips basically said that they utterly hate Humans. She further presses the issue by then dismantling the plot of Halo 3 and making it unambiguously clear that the alliance in Halo 3 was done PURELY for ends justify the means reasoning - as in taking down Truth justified them allying with such "filth" such as Humans, as well as making it patently clear that this act meant nothing in the long run. It was done purely to take down Truth. There are no underlying reasons, and no further reaching implications. (Such as this implying friendlier Elites) And Phillips is basically the expert here, so the author used him as a mouth piece to give us the run down.

As for "Minorities", just consider how meaningful it is to point out that not all Humans belief in a spherical Earth by bringing up Flat Earth Society... A totally meaningless, vanishingly small minority not worth bringing up. So yes, whilst obviously not every single one of them thinks the same, it may as well be put like that.

Pointing out that Humans and Elites are fundamentally incompatible in mindset is practically screaming Human-Covenant War 2.0 to me. They think and act in ways that are completely alien to each other, and they have absolutely nothing in common. It would make sense though, because that means Halo 4 has more enemies.

  • 01.16.2012 6:42 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Plasma Prestige
Well they are on their homeworld fixing ships and tending fields. I wouldn't let an ancient enemy of mine have control over my food or technology nor would i let him lightyears near my homeworld. The title of "Slave" means nothing, they trust that the Brutes will tend the fields, They trust that they will fix the ships when told to do so. The Brutes have the elites by the balls right now.

Hell, African Americans were not trusted in the slightest during times of slavery; any tampering would be dealt with incredible severity. The Brutes don't have the Elites by the balls because the fact of the matter is that - without the Covenant - the Brutes are not even a threat technologically to the humans, much less the Elites who almost beat the San Shyuum.

I don't remember Thel commending the humans in Glasslands. When i say commend i am talking about something like This. Instead they just whine about how it is our fault they have fell so low in the last few eons. That wouldn't be an issue if Karen wasn't so lazy and just put in a chapter or two with random elites from the other side of the spectrum commenting on it.

I don't have an exact page number because my copy is digital, but I recall that Thel said that not all humans were cowards because without some courageous humans he could not have killed Truth (right when he returned to Sanghelios, I believe). It definitely was not the Unyielding trailer, but it was commending the humans nonetheless.

I haven't seen you state how the elite mindset is "childish". Though if i cared i could call you a hypocrite for generalizing.

And your accusation would be baseless. The system of honor the Sangheili believe in are about as obsolete as the chivalric codes of the Middle Ages. Perhaps "childish" is not the best word, but certainly obsolete and impractical. That is the mindset as a whole, not the entirety of the Sangheili people, I am criticizing.

Anyways, been a pleasure as always having a conversation. I'm going to go to bed seeing as I have exams all this week. I will try to come back on sometime to resume our discussion. Take care.



Horrible analogy seeing how i am "African American" I and have heard more than enough stories from that time. Yes the "masters" trusted the "House N*****" not to mess with their food or anything else. Which is the reason they were inside and have different views on "The Master" than those out in the fields.


More Sangheili should be similar. I am not saying every single one of them should though the ratio should be higher. Everything is a variable.

Morals are never "obsolete" without those morals they are no different than the brutes. You seem not to understand the subtext behind that.


Good luck, and until next time.

  • 01.16.2012 6:42 PM PDT

If I may point out, the African American slaves were also dealing with Masters who knew what was right and wrong. If they tried to say, fix the wagon in a way it'd break killing the driver, the slave masters could tell that.

The Elites cannot tell whether something is fixed right, or fixed to explode in the worst possible way as far as I can tell.

Edit: I'm still surprised that the waypoint guys cannot understand my issue with the ODST Vaz.

[Edited on 01.16.2012 9:14 PM PST]

  • 01.16.2012 9:10 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

The Elites cannot tell whether something is fixed right, or fixed to explode in the worst possible way as far as I can tell.


Exactly!

  • 01.16.2012 9:12 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Posted by: risay_117
So when would Cortana have been able to debrief the UNSC on the entirety of Forerunner technology, and they had time to both understand and utilize it?
During the award ceremony. Remember she was not with the Chief then, but somewhere else. She pops in half way during the ceremony and explains of an attack.

She could have easily dropped all the info she had into the server or an account database. Or made a copy of herself to be used.

Okay. I'll reiterate; when would the UNSC have had time to understand and utilize that massive wealth of information? Certainly not in a few months.

  • 01.16.2012 10:41 PM PDT

I loved Glasslands, I thought it was a really good read. I don't see why you are all hating because Karen Traviss made Halsey looks bad, SHE WAS BAD

  • 01.17.2012 4:17 AM PDT

All the sweeping generalisations being bandied about in this thread are absurd. There are always anomalies. You really think every single Sangheili hates every single Jiralhanae and vice versa? Do you also think every member of the Covenant supported to war against the humans? Do you believe every single member of the Covenant was a religious zealot? That's like saying every German who fought in WWII was a National Socialist, or that every Russian in 1917 was a Bolshevik or, citing a more modern example of ignorance, that every Muslim is a terrorist.

For all we know, these Jiralhanae in Glasslands who live on Sangheilios have been friends with the Sangheili they serve for years, or maybe even fought against the Covenant loyalists during the Great Schism.

I've said it before but I'll say it again; life isn't black and white. In fact, I'm so sick of this that I'm going to take some time out of my day to disseminate this 'terrible' part of Glasslands.

There were still a few loyal Unggoy and Jiralhanae around, weren't
there? They could easily learn to be farmers or factory workers. Or engineers. It was simply a matter of giving them
clear instructions and making sure they didn't drug themselves
into a stupor or start too many fights.
But it was far easier to vaporize every living thing on a
planet than reform an entire culture from scratch.


So there are a few loyal Jiralhanae about, 'few' being the key word here. It's not like there are tens of thousands of Jiralhanae on Sangheilios strutting about the cities; it's probably these Jiralhanae have been on the planet for many years, possibly through a generation or two. Note that they're not farmers or factory workers or engineers yet, Jul just entertains the possibility that they could be.

And those Jiralhanae who've turned on us.

Note 'those Jiralhanae who've turned on us;' were all Jiralhanae hated by the Sangheili, the passage would just read 'and the Jiralhanae.' Further supports that there were Jiralhanae whose alleigences lay outside the Covenant loyalists.

"What's
happening? Is it Jiralhanae? Humans?


Note how Raia asks if it were the Jiralhanae first. This means that the Sangheili do still consider them a primary enemy over the humans, those who turned on them.

Most of the Jiralhanae aren't on your side

Osman tells this to 'Telcam. Again, this shows that only a few anomalous Jiralhanae have joined with the Sangheili and the majority are still their enemies.

It was strange to see the brutish creatures doing
something so painstaking, but at least they were obedient.
Most of their kind had joined the uprising and turned on
their Sangheili masters. Old hatreds and resentment had
boiled over, and Jul barely trusted those that remained at
their stations.


Important quote, here. Jul barely trusts them, but he still trusts the Jiralhanae who didn't 'turn on their Sangheili masters' and remained obedient. That Jul expresses bemusement as he watches the Brutes trim the trees shows that they didn't do this before the Great Schism, so obviously the Jiralhanae loyal to the Sangheili filled another role for them before the uprising.

Jul, Buran, and Forze ambled along beside him, trying to
look casual while six of Buran's loyal crewtwo of them Jiralhanae
trailed behind.


Another mention of Jiralhanae loyalty to Sangheili; the latter even trust the former to walk behind them, certainly not something you'd do with a people you universally hate.

Some Jiralhanae
crews have sided with their brother traitors and
stolen ships."


Not all the Jiralhanae on Sangheilios remained loyal, some 'crews' going to join their 'brother traitors,' so the ones who remain are obviously going to be looked upon more kindly than before. It even says that they couldn't do anything to stop the Jiralhanae leaving, so it's not like the Sangheili are whipping the knife-wielding Jiralhanae into cutting meat for dinner and then turning their backs. They remain of their own free will.

Buran turned to the Jiralhanae. "Search the ship. If you
find any Kig-Yar still around, you have my permission to eat
them. In fact, I insist."


The Sangheili recognise the carnivorousness nature of the Jiralhanae as a part of their culture, as much as honour is a part of the Sangheili's. They don't begrudge them for it.

And how long can we trust the Jiralhanae who are still
with us?
Jul looked at Forze and knew he was thinking the same
thing. There was probably no such thing as a loyal Jiralhanae,
only one that was more scared of his Sangheili superiors
than he was of his packmates' wrath or his reputation. The
two species loathed one another. It was just a matter of
keeping a close eye on those that remained.
And then we'll dispense with their assistance completely.
Never again. No more reliance on aliens to keep
our society functioning. We'll learn to do things for
ourselves.


Jul doesn't really trust the Jiralhanae's loyalty, but rather their fear of the Sangheili over their packmates. However, Jul is a radical who has a fervent belief that the Sangheili can do anything they want on their own, and so his opinions are biased so this viewpoint isn't to be relied upon on this matter.

The feud between Jiralhanae and Sangheili had finally erupted
again with the Great Schism, but Jul had never quite
worked out where the fault lines were. Jiralhanae fought
each other, they fought the Sangheili, and, for no reason Jul
could truly understand, some of them remained loyal to
Sanghelios.


The Jiralhanae's culture is that of a pack; they respect the strongest within that pack and disrespect the weakest in the pack, regardless of race. Pack doesn't just extend to the few Jiralhanae they romp about with, but society as a whole. When Jiralhanae believe themselves stronger than the Sangheili they challenge their superiority, and when they see the Sangheili as stronger they remain subservient.

So it's not a simple matter of 'the Elites hate the Brutes, the Brutes hate the Elites.' Feuds between cultures never work like that. There are always those who go against the grain; native Americans who worked with the British, Germans who striked against the war effort in WWI, and so on. You can't say an entire species has a cemented psyche running throughout it all.

  • 01.17.2012 6:03 AM PDT

Note Jul also outright states the two races LOATH each other.

  • 01.17.2012 6:26 AM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

Note Jul also outright states the two races LOATH each other.

Jul hates humans, so obviously he would be the first one to make such a generalization. Furthermore, even if he did say this (which I need a source for), it would make his entire story unnecessary (i.e., the story of getting the Sangheili who hate humans in power).

Horrible analogy seeing how i am "African American" I and have heard more than enough stories from that time. Yes the "masters" trusted the "House N*****" not to mess with their food or anything else. Which is the reason they were inside and have different views on "The Master" than those out in the fields.

Notwithstanding, slaves still had a great chance to -blam!- up their Master's day. Why didn't they? Because they would be punished, and the same applies to the Jiralhanae. The Brutes are animals; the only reason there was a civil war is because the Prophets gave the Brutes both the permission and the arms necessary to wage the war. The Brutes without the Covenant are incompetent. Hell, even the Sangheili are a little incompetent after the war, as Traviss describes, but the Sangheili were on a higher technological tier to begin with.

Morals are never "obsolete" without those morals they are no different than the brutes. You seem not to understand the subtext behind that.
I concede this to you, however, the presence of a moral code does not mean all the Elites followed it. In the novel that old man was butchered by the fanatical group for blowing up something of religious value; was that not animalistic? In my opinion Sangheili who fall in Jul's camp innately understand that they cannot justify their actions against the humans based on their values of honor and pride, only on their emotions of anger and bitterness. In my opinion, again, that creates a more interesting narrative since it shows the conflicting, often heretical, viewpoints of some of the Sangheili.

  • 01.17.2012 2:28 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

As for "Minorities", just consider how meaningful it is to point out that not all Humans belief in a spherical Earth by bringing up Flat Earth Society... A totally meaningless, vanishingly small minority not worth bringing up. So yes, whilst obviously not every single one of them thinks the same, it may as well be put like that.

This analogy is incredibly disingenuous. The percentage of Sangheili who believe the humans are not to be trusted far, far exceeds the percentage of people who believe the Earth is flat.

  • 01.17.2012 2:32 PM PDT