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This topic has moved here: Subject: Let's talk general forum moderation vs. bnet moderation.
  • Subject: Let's talk general forum moderation vs. bnet moderation.
Subject: Let's talk general forum moderation vs. bnet moderation.
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Posted by: r c takedown
Yax is a shining beacon in these dark times. You should all strive to be more like Yax.

Am I wrong to say that, ideally, this is the basic formula you should go by when moderating a forum?

I don't see any faults with it, and I can't quite think up a scenario where it doesn't successfully apply (that's where you potentially come in)

So assuming that flowchart is how one moderates small, or basic, forums, is there a reason it doesn't apply to bnet? Or do you think the moderators here already basically follow it?

Personally, I think there is quite a bit of banning for the sake of the rules rather than banning for the sake of the community. What I'm saying is that, sometimes, it feels like the mods follow a much simpler flow-chart, such as this (possibly exaggerated but you get the point)

But, this is just my personal observation. And I can be inexperienced and straight-up ignorant in some cases so I could be very very wrong. That's why I made this thread though. So we can share our feelings and discuss the pros and cons of either demonstrational flowcharts (or make more, entirely different, flowcharts to explain how you think forums should be moderated or how you think these forums are already moderated.)

Moderator input is especially welcome.

  • 01.11.2012 3:14 AM PDT
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Been around this site since 03.

B.net Moderation is blahhh too me.

  • 01.11.2012 3:21 AM PDT

Key

Compared to most online moderators BNet's are less strict by leagues upon leagues. Seriously. If you think that BNet mods will ban people excessively, and without thought, I implore you to visit The Waypoint Forums. The abysmal moderation staff there (which has made many people, including myself, leave their forums altogether) will people for getting into simple disagreements because it looks poorly on their community. THEN, they'll delete all evidence of the "offending" post(s), so any form of legitimate ban appeal is impossible because the only people who can see the deleted posts are those who are sentencing you.

BNet mods are fine the way they are, in my opinion.

  • 01.11.2012 3:27 AM PDT

"We live in a special time; the only time where we can observationally verify that we live in a very special time" - Lawrence Krauss.

I was a finalist :P

As other users have mentioned, the moderators don't cognitively think like a "hive-mind", more so have different perspectives on the rules and how they enforce them.

This spectrum of perspectives could eventually be observable on the forums, especially with veteran users; so it may seem that the moderation is not consistent, and hence follows a variety of different moderation flow charts at different time periods.

I guess another thing is, is that we can't observe warnings given to a user, hence it may be inaccurate to assume the second flow chart provided. We don't really know how warnings will effect a certain user (as each user is different) or the community, and we don't know how bans will effect a certain user or the community. It all comes down to a thought out judgement, proceeded by an action.

[Edited on 01.11.2012 3:50 AM PST]

  • 01.11.2012 3:48 AM PDT

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Mods give out plenty of warnings. You just don't hear people complaining as much when they get them.

  • 01.11.2012 3:48 AM PDT

cockburnicus@live.com
New Flood

I haven't been banned in years. To me that suggests that the mods aren't really doing their jobs, and that you can pretty much post any old -blam!- in pretty much any thread and not be banned for it. I'm ok with that.

  • 01.11.2012 3:51 AM PDT

@spaboolly

From what I've seen and heard, I think they're somewhere in the middle. While banning someone for an offense may not seem immediately beneficial to the community, it may have the long term effect of reducing rule breaking by teaching lessons, giving incentive to follow the rules, and (when necessary) permanently removing the more... disruptive people from the forums.

The flowcharts also oversimplify things. Some of the forum rules are particularly open to interpretation, and thus result in varied levels of moderation in response to posts that may bend/break them. Not saying there is anything wrong with this. It is what it is. The charts also don't really make allowances for posts that may border on breaking the rules (or have a high risk of degenerating into flaming) but do not necessarily detract from the community or the overall operation of the forums. Things like that seem to pretty much be a case-by-case basis. And if the main concern for mods is making the decision that most benefits the community, there is no clear course of action in some cases.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while the first chart does show one of the things that should be considered when giving out warnings/bans, I don't think it should be used as a standard.

As for Bnet specifically, the mods seem to usually be pretty straightforward- Break a rule, get in trouble. The hope is that you learn a lesson and don't do it again. Plus the mods don't make the rules, just enforce them. Some of the rules are strict, while others are pretty much common sense. Which seems to work pretty well for the most part.

Of course, I'm not a mod so all of this is just my opinion, which really doesn't count for much.

  • 01.11.2012 4:08 AM PDT
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“Strange,” mused the Director, as they turned away, “strange to think that even in Our Ford’s day most games were played without more apparatus than a ball or two and a few sticks and perhaps a bit of netting. imagine the folly of allowing people to play elaborate games which do nothing whatever to increase consumption.”

The Black Chapter!

I would imagine that if there is a common perception of flowchart 2 being used then that would deter any casual rulebreakers from skirting the edges.

  • 01.11.2012 4:17 AM PDT

Thesaurus.com


Posted by: Telec
I would imagine that if there is a common perception of flowchart 2 being used then that would deter any casual rulebreakers from skirting the edges.

Yep.

Rule by fear.

  • 01.11.2012 4:21 AM PDT

I'm fairly sure that's how they do things. Sometimes I don't think they are being harsh enough.

  • 01.11.2012 4:22 AM PDT

We're concerned

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Got a question, comment, or concern? PM me.

They ban what they feel.


If they feel like banning you, you will be banned. If they don't feel like banning you they wont.

  • 01.11.2012 4:29 AM PDT

Five years older and wiser
The fires are burning, I'm fire, never tire
Slay warriors in the forests, and on hire

I have been banned a lot. I have broken the rules a lot.

And I can truly say that the Ninjas are just and fair. They do send warnings to let you know you're pushing it, they do let you slide and they do punish when you do wrong.

There is nothing wrong with the current team of mods. The only thing that can change for the better is adding tools for self moderation. Then everyone will be happy.

  • 01.11.2012 4:35 AM PDT

cars, girls & cake all day everyday

This is coming from a kid who's had a total like 6-7 months of vacation, just throwing that out there.
*tussles Apoc's hair*
Posted by: ApocalypeX
I have been banned a lot. I have broken the rules a lot.

And I can truly say that the Ninjas are just and fair. They do send warnings to let you know you're pushing it, they do let you slide and they do punish when you do wrong.

There is nothing wrong with the current team of mods. The only thing that can change for the better is adding tools for self moderation. Then everyone will be happy.

  • 01.11.2012 4:54 AM PDT

Five years older and wiser
The fires are burning, I'm fire, never tire
Slay warriors in the forests, and on hire

Posted by: Count Blinkula
This is coming from a kid who's had a total like 6-7 months of vacation, just throwing that out there.
*tussles Apoc's hair*
Posted by: ApocalypeX
I have been banned a lot. I have broken the rules a lot.

And I can truly say that the Ninjas are just and fair. They do send warnings to let you know you're pushing it, they do let you slide and they do punish when you do wrong.

There is nothing wrong with the current team of mods. The only thing that can change for the better is adding tools for self moderation. Then everyone will be happy.

Lul I guess that's true. I guess the mods are bored and trying to spice things up? I don't see a problem with that. This place is boring now (insinuating it wasn't before).

But I still say the mods follow that flow diagram.

[Edited on 01.11.2012 4:58 AM PST]

  • 01.11.2012 4:57 AM PDT

cars, girls & cake all day everyday

Not with bungie.me around they don't.
They probably just hate you. :<
Posted by: ApocalypeX
Posted by: Count Blinkula
This is coming from a kid who's had a total like 6-7 months of vacation, just throwing that out there.
*tussles Apoc's hair*
Posted by: ApocalypeX
I have been banned a lot. I have broken the rules a lot.

And I can truly say that the Ninjas are just and fair. They do send warnings to let you know you're pushing it, they do let you slide and they do punish when you do wrong.

There is nothing wrong with the current team of mods. The only thing that can change for the better is adding tools for self moderation. Then everyone will be happy.

Lul I guess that's true. I guess the mods are bored and trying to spice things up? I don't see a problem with that. This place is boring now (insinuating it wasn't before).

But I still say the mods follow that flow diagram.

  • 01.11.2012 4:59 AM PDT
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Posted by: r c takedown
Yax is a shining beacon in these dark times. You should all strive to be more like Yax.

Posted by: MsCadetUNIVERSE
I guess what I'm trying to say is that while the first chart does show one of the things that should be considered when giving out warnings/bans, I don't think it should be used as a standard.
What would be the preferred standard, in your opinion? Or is it too hard to describe because of all the variables that change case by case?

I'd also like to clarify that I'm not attacking the moderating team as a whole, actually, I'm not attacking them at all. All the active mods seem decent and fair for the most part. But some of them do have odd habits, and on occasion make bad decisions.

To better explain the initial flowchart business, I should probably single out an example. The most prominent one in my mind would be a personal habit of Recon's. He has a zero-tolerance policy on pirating, which means that if anybody admits to illegally downloading content, he will permanently ban them.

Now that clearly falls under the second flowchart. They are breaking a rule and he bans them, regardless of how long they've been here or their previous ban history. This would be fine if it was a regular, (or even an extra long), ban but he stated himself that it is permanent.

Something like that is completely detrimental to the community and wouldn't happen if they stopped and thought along the lines of the first flowchart. The user could be somebody who posts insightful threads and contributes a great deal to the site, who is then never allowed to post again just because they admitted to downloading the new Miley Cyrus album.

That's the kind of moderation that I think is a problem. Maybe mods don't need to ask themselves "will this ban benefit the community?" every single time but when it's a permanent ban I think it should definitely be considered.

  • 01.11.2012 5:13 AM PDT

Halo Waypoint Superintendent // Forger // Junior Games & Web Developer.

Halo4ger.com - Founder/Admin.

@DerFlatulator

Reaching Perfection || Blueprint -- Action Sack Lead

Posted by: Zealot Tony
As other users have mentioned, the moderators don't cognitively think like a "hive-mind", more so have different perspectives on the rules and how they enforce them.

I can't speak for the moderators here, but as a member of the moderation team at Halo Waypoint, I can say that any decisions that aren't clear cut are discussed with other moderators before a decision is made, and/or action is taken. So we kinda are like a "hive-mind".

Posted by: CrazzySnipe55
Compared to most online moderators BNet's are less strict by leagues upon leagues. Seriously. If you think that BNet mods will ban people excessively, and without thought, I implore you to visit The Waypoint Forums. The abysmal moderation staff there (which has made many people, including myself, leave their forums altogether) will people for getting into simple disagreements because it looks poorly on their community. THEN, they'll delete all evidence of the "offending" post(s), so any form of legitimate ban appeal is impossible because the only people who can see the deleted posts are those who are sentencing you.
Firstly, posts are only deleted under strict circumstances, such as Duplicate posts/spam. All other offenses are edited, and edits are visible to all moderators and administrators, so if you would like to appeal a ban, then you can contact any moderator or administrator. We are a small team, but we are very active, and hold tight to the rules and regulations.

To address the OP, with the factor of "benefiting the community", the rules are designed to benefit the community, so logically breaking the rules would not benefit the community. Of course there are exceptions, and they should be considered, both here, and on the Waypoint forums.

  • 01.11.2012 5:18 AM PDT

From my experience with the mods (2 warnings) they seem to be very fair and relaxed, I don't visit any other forums now but bungie.net so I can't really compare them to other sites mods but imho I think that they and the decisions they make are okay.

  • 01.11.2012 5:22 AM PDT
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Bnet moderation is fine for me. At least the moderators give you a warning, and bans are fairly hard to stumble upon, unless you're trying to get one.

  • 01.11.2012 5:30 AM PDT

"We live in a special time; the only time where we can observationally verify that we live in a very special time" - Lawrence Krauss.

I was a finalist :P


Posted by: Der Flatulator6
Posted by: Zealot Tony
As other users have mentioned, the moderators don't cognitively think like a "hive-mind", more so have different perspectives on the rules and how they enforce them.

I can't speak for the moderators here, but as a member of the moderation team at Halo Waypoint, I can say that any decisions that aren't clear cut are discussed with other moderators before a decision is made, and/or action is taken. So we kinda are like a "hive-mind".

Yes, discussion would be encouraged when a moderator is unsure about how to handle a particular situation. However, a confident result which one moderator issues may be different to how another moderator deals with the same situation - they make this decision without consolidating anyone else, under the assumption that it is the right choice. I don't consider this as a "hive-mind" sort of behaviour (although there may other area of moderation which require it).

  • 01.11.2012 5:37 AM PDT
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The End

‘The conscious is cancerous if allowed to linger’

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."

I wrote this after having only been moderating for a few weeks - writing helps you clarify your own views by giving opportunity to challenge them, it can also be a process of discovery.

Even after all this time the same ideas apply, I believe the community should be held above the mundane and try to moderate as such.

  • 01.11.2012 6:01 AM PDT

Five years older and wiser
The fires are burning, I'm fire, never tire
Slay warriors in the forests, and on hire

Posted by: Tom T
...this...


Oh-blam!- Tom has a blog.

  • 01.11.2012 6:03 AM PDT
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The End

‘The conscious is cancerous if allowed to linger’

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."

Posted by: ApocalypeX
Posted by: Tom T
...this...
Oh-blam!- Tom has a blog.
You can see it gets a lot of use. I don't even know if I remember the login information.

  • 01.11.2012 6:18 AM PDT

yoo•zel- ('yoo-zhul): slang: vb.

Officium quod Fidelitas.

You said it right there - variables. In my tenure here it's become a game of case by case, cat and mouse, get the worst of what's out there. Moderators anywhere will never be perfect, some sites are super strict - for example should Moderators here have to have names, faces, personality, or should you get a cold message from the Soul not saying who banned you or really why?

Because of the variable-system the rules reflect and respect the fact that not any one person is the same and gives the moderators allowances into exercising trusted judgment over each situation as it unfolds. At best I can say we take into account a lot of variables when issuing bans but what makes sense to us is not expected to make sense to the outside, as such that's where the whole "unfair" idealism comes into play. More than once I've had to explain situations to people only to have them apologize for simply misunderstanding the situation.

With great trust comes great responsibility and accountability. I haven't been to many forums where you can directly message the moderator and enter an appeals process. That's actually rather revolutionary in terms of moderation considering more than enough websites are willing to tell you that you're wrong from the moment you posted and they don't care to hear you.

Posted by: Yax
What would be the preferred standard, in your opinion? Or is it too hard to describe because of all the variables that change case by case?

  • 01.11.2012 6:35 AM PDT

Halo Waypoint Superintendent // Forger // Junior Games & Web Developer.

Halo4ger.com - Founder/Admin.

@DerFlatulator

Reaching Perfection || Blueprint -- Action Sack Lead


Posted by: Zealot Tony
Posted by: Der Flatulator6
Posted by: Zealot Tony
As other users have mentioned, the moderators don't cognitively think like a "hive-mind", more so have different perspectives on the rules and how they enforce them.

I can't speak for the moderators here, but as a member of the moderation team at Halo Waypoint, I can say that any decisions that aren't clear cut are discussed with other moderators before a decision is made, and/or action is taken. So we kinda are like a "hive-mind".

Yes, discussion would be encouraged when a moderator is unsure about how to handle a particular situation. However, a confident result which one moderator issues may be different to how another moderator deals with the same situation - they make this decision without consolidating anyone else, under the assumption that it is the right choice. I don't consider this as a "hive-mind" sort of behaviour (although there may other area of moderation which require it).
As true as that may be, moderation is often simple when you have rules to go by. What's spam is spam, flaming is flaming, etc. However judgement calls are common, but as a rule, a decision that isn't clear cut, should be discussed. I'm not going into the details of the process, but you should be aware that there is more discussion going on than you think.

[Edited on 01.11.2012 6:50 AM PST]

  • 01.11.2012 6:49 AM PDT