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This topic has moved here: Subject: Let's talk general forum moderation vs. bnet moderation.
  • Subject: Let's talk general forum moderation vs. bnet moderation.
Subject: Let's talk general forum moderation vs. bnet moderation.
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Why are you reading my signature? Who actually opens these things and reads them!

And as always, SEND ME A PM. Please. Or really bad things will happen to you.

Although I may not be the best authority on the moderators (Only been unofficially warned once and never banned) I can say that the BNet mods are much better than any of the other sites I visit.

First off, they care. It's rare that you can PM any moderator and get a response on other sites, here I can get immediate clarification. Just ask forman or dazarobbo, I think I've asked them four different questions within the week and gotten prompt replies each time.

Secondly, they're willing to explain why something was wrong. Bans can be clarified and locked threads explained. A lot forums lock and offer no explanation as to why.

  • 01.11.2012 7:26 AM PDT

I suspect llamas are secretly wizards. I <3 poptarts n' milk. I like me. Grimick is defined as: a logical parodox, the act of funnaling a potato down your throat, and a deliciously flavored muffin (with pecons and blueberries). Norway is the Swedish word for 'moron'. My sister has cancer, so i get to use handicap parking and cut small children in line at Disneyland.

"Don't eat doughnuts on thin ice."

"The pancake, my friend, has officially been flipped."

I can see how it might feel like that, but I wouldn't worry about it. Mods become mods because of their good judgement, and it is unlikely that they abandon their sanity after becoming ninjas. I sure they think about it for a sufficient amount of time before taking action.

  • 01.11.2012 7:33 AM PDT

i c u thar c' ing my signiture

Yours in _Kai_

Are you implying that people don't get warned? I have a couple warning (don't know how many to be exact). Moderation is a the discretion of the moderating staff. It is true that the rules are less strict around here but that still doesn't mean you can just throw it in the wind and start posting like an asshat. If it is something very minor, you usually get a warning, if you have a lot of warnings (especially for the same rule that you are breaking) then you get the old banhammer.

  • 01.11.2012 7:59 AM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

Posted by: R3ACTlON
Rule by fear.

  • 01.11.2012 8:04 AM PDT
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MROS (Mindless Rabble of Scientists) - A group to discuss any aspect of science

Posted by: R3ACTlON
Hard is good.

I made some revisions to your flow diagram to provide a more accurate representation.

  • 01.11.2012 8:08 AM PDT
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And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

*applauds*
Posted by: The Storm
I made some revisions to your flow diagram to provide a more accurate representation.

  • 01.11.2012 8:11 AM PDT

Halo Waypoint Superintendent // Forger // Junior Games & Web Developer.

Halo4ger.com - Founder/Admin.

@DerFlatulator

Reaching Perfection || Blueprint -- Action Sack Lead


Posted by: The Storm
I made some revisions to your flow diagram to provide a more accurate representation.
I have no words to describe how awesome (and remarkable accurate) this is!

  • 01.11.2012 8:13 AM PDT

Halo Waypoint Superintendent // Forger // Junior Games & Web Developer.

Halo4ger.com - Founder/Admin.

@DerFlatulator

Reaching Perfection || Blueprint -- Action Sack Lead


Posted by: Qbix89
*applauds*
Posted by: The Storm
I made some revisions to your flow diagram to provide a more accurate representation.
*cries*

  • 01.11.2012 8:13 AM PDT

i c u thar c' ing my signiture

Yours in _Kai_


Posted by: Der Flatulator6

Posted by: The Storm
I made some revisions to your flow diagram to provide a more accurate representation.
I have no words to describe how awesome (and remarkable accurate) this is!

No kidding, this is pretty spot on...

  • 01.11.2012 8:14 AM PDT

Dubito ergo cogito, cogito ergo sum ©
Halo 3 Longshore playable on Team Fortress 2 vids

Despite deficit payroll, all Bungie's moderator will now have to ban user who have achieved 2 post per a day.

  • 01.11.2012 8:16 AM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

Posted by: Yax
To better explain the initial flowchart business, I should probably single out an example. The most prominent one in my mind would be a personal habit of Recon's. He has a zero-tolerance policy on pirating, which means that if anybody admits to illegally downloading content, he will permanently ban them.

Now that clearly falls under the second flowchart. They are breaking a rule and he bans them, regardless of how long they've been here or their previous ban history. This would be fine if it was a regular, (or even an extra long), ban but he stated himself that it is permanent.

Something like that is completely detrimental to the community and wouldn't happen if they stopped and thought along the lines of the first flowchart. The user could be somebody who posts insightful threads and contributes a great deal to the site, who is then never allowed to post again just because they admitted to downloading the new Miley Cyrus album.

I have a zero tolerance for the entire "Render unto Caesar" clause of the Code of Conduct. Any clear violation of which is putting our hosts (and therefor the existence of this community) at a very real risk.

Sorry, you can think that my actions are harmful to the community, but I am acting in the interests of this community and the foundation that allows it to exist. Our hosts and the site that they provide. Any member who violates their membership agreement so severely (by using this site to openly admit to, discuss, encourage or enable real crimes) is a danger to this community. All it would take is one lawyer, one pissed off parent, one news story, one prosecution any of which link or name this site and we're at risk. ALL of us. Any contributing and thoughtful member of the community should know that and act accordingly by following the promise they made when joining this community.

Someone can otherwise be a pillar of the community, and an all-around great guy, but put this site at legal risk of its existence? Any member who does that doesn't understand the consequences of their actions/statements and therefor is a loose cannon. I remove them.

Since we all know how "serious" and "unavoidable" those bans are, it's not like I executed the person. I killed their account's abilities to post on the public forums. Where they were recklessly endangering this site. Their account still exists and still has uses, but they have clearly shown that they did not understand the potential consequences of their actions. I would hope that they (and others) do now.

  • 01.11.2012 8:17 AM PDT
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:)

Posted by: Yoozel
I haven't been to many forums where you can directly message the moderator and enter an appeals process.

And jeeez that's annoying. With the Halo Waypoint forums for instance, once you get banned you can't even access your PM to appeal - let alone know what you were banned for. You can't even browse the forum while banned.

But I digress. The way this website is moderated has both pros and cons. Pros are fairly obivous: You get the chance to appeal bans, you get warnings... second chances.. etc etc. The whole process seems pretty solid and after a while you understand what will get you banned or not.

The cons seem to be more so for the newer members though. In my experience, I've noticed that new users will get harsher bans than older members. Whether this is because the mods are suspecting the account is an alt or some other reason, it seems quite prominent. In the case of new members, I feel your second chart is actually somewhat accurate OP.

I constantly see (and I'd hate to bring this up... but) members with higher titles make off-topic/rude comments and get away with it, but the moment a regular member makes a similar comment, they're banned.

tl;dr: From what I've seen, this seems to apply to older more 'experienced' members, whereas this seems to apply to the newer members.

Not saying that this happens as fact. Just an observation.

Edit. It seems as if I've misinterpreted what this thread is about. I think. Jeeez I'm tired...

[Edited on 01.11.2012 8:24 AM PST]

  • 01.11.2012 8:18 AM PDT
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Why are you reading my signature? Who actually opens these things and reads them!

And as always, SEND ME A PM. Please. Or really bad things will happen to you.

Posted by: jross1993
-Snipped-

I know QBix treats members with little to no ban history much easier than repeat offenders, but ban history has nothing to do with account age.

[Edited on 01.11.2012 8:25 AM PST]

  • 01.11.2012 8:25 AM PDT

Carpe Diem - Carpe Coffee

Astronomy Picture of the Day!

Would I be wrong in saying that your argument can be boiled down to that you don't think the set rules don't do a very good job at benefiting the community? That's what I see when I look at your flowcharts, since theoretically both flowcharts should be identical if you felt that the rules are fulfilling that purpose. If that's the case, I would have to disagree.

You mention Recon's anti-pirating rule enforcement as a specific example of being detrimental to the community, but I don't see how any sort of pirating discussion could possibly benefit the community in any way. You could argue endlessly as to whether or not the violation permits the use of a perma-ban, but in my opinion it really comes down to how the community can put Bungie at legal risk and how Bungie offers products that can be pirated as well. I think it's pretty obvious how that is detrimental to the community, because it is detrimental to Bungie.

  • 01.11.2012 8:26 AM PDT

Halo Waypoint Superintendent // Forger // Junior Games & Web Developer.

Halo4ger.com - Founder/Admin.

@DerFlatulator

Reaching Perfection || Blueprint -- Action Sack Lead


Posted by: jross1993
From what I've seen, this seems to apply to older more 'experienced' members, whereas this seems to apply to the newer members.
Interesting observation. I would say that is probably due to moderators taking into consideration that members who are larger parts of the community ARE parts of the community, and as a result treading 'lighter' on the rules.

This is in no way something I would do myself (Special consideration).

  • 01.11.2012 8:26 AM PDT
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Exalted Unexplainable Member

The moderators don't need some type of dumnblam's chart to moderate. They have brain enough to know how moderation works. Especially because they've been hand selected out of hundreds to thousands of users because of supposedly having attributes that will make them a good moderator.

I mean, seriously? Should we hold their hand and give them a doggy treat every time they do a good job?

  • 01.11.2012 8:39 AM PDT

yas334229812


Posted by: The Storm
I made some revisions to your flow diagram to provide a more accurate representation.


You have just won your place on bungies moderator team

  • 01.11.2012 8:45 AM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

Posted by: Izak609
I mean, seriously? Should we hold their hand and give them a doggy treat every time they do a good job?

I never say no to a snack, some praise and a nice belly rub.

Who's offering?

  • 01.11.2012 8:45 AM PDT
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  • Fabled Legendary Member

Posted by: r c takedown
Yax is a shining beacon in these dark times. You should all strive to be more like Yax.

Posted by: JBSpudster
Would I be wrong in saying that your argument can be boiled down to that you don't think the set rules don't do a very good job at benefiting the community?
I think the rules are fine, I guess I just don't think they always need enforcing. As you can see one of the possible outcomes of the first flowchart ends in a user breaking the rules and receiving no punishment.

You mention Recon's anti-pirating rule enforcement as a specific example of being detrimental to the community, but I don't see how any sort of pirating discussion could possibly benefit the community in any way.It can't. And if you think I was trying to say it could, you are missing my point entirely.

They still deserve a ban in those cases but permanently banning them is a different matter entirely. The permanent ban is when it can became detrimental to the community.

Posted by: Recon Number 54
Your whole post reeks of hyperbole. I understand that, as a company, Bungie needs to be mindful of their image but you make it sound like we could all be thrown in jail at the drop of a hat.

It would be different if you were just permanently banning users who were linking to pirating sites or explaining how to illegally download content, but you're not. It's anybody that even mentions they've pirated something ever.

What's the difference between banning that user for a month and banning them permanently? I'm sure they would learn their lesson with either ban.

There's also the fact that if these users are such "loose cannons", and are putting Bungie at risk, why stop at a permanent ban? For all you know, they could be encouraging pirating in dozens of groups, which are still under the CoC so would naturally have the same legal repercussions. There needs to be a stronger ban for these types of people if they are seriously putting the community at risk, like you say.

Realistically, if it was as serious as you make it sound, there would be a consistent approach from the entire moderation team. They would all dish out permanent bans for it, instead of it being at the moderator's personal discretion.

Posted by: The Storm
I made some revisions to your flow diagram to provide a more accurate representation.
Brilliant.

  • 01.11.2012 8:45 AM PDT

@spawn031

"So much of what we do is ephemeral and quickly forgotten, even by ourselves, so it's gratifying to have something you have done linger in people's memories." John Williams

If you're going to ban every little thing that happens on the forums, people are going to be afraid to post. That way when push comes to shove and you have an actual off topic funny thread, people feel like they can't participate and have that sense of community.

Of course the moderators are going to ban people that just make new accounts to make other users experience unpleasant, but from what I hear they do send out warnings quite often. It's the whole mindset of letting everyone that you're still there and watching them. If your "warning" was a 3 day ban, like it was a few years ago, then people would post much less.

  • 01.11.2012 9:25 AM PDT

There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Forum Rules
List of Forum Ninjas

I think you assume a lot with your flow charts. Honestly, it does work like you showed in your first one. None of us ban flippantly. And we warn people. A lot. I mean for me at least, I warn people 50 times more than I ban, maybe more.

And as for the benefit to the community argument, that's highly subjective. I garentee you, that a ninja issuing a ban sees it as a beneficial move. You may not agree when on the receiving end, but that's a different story.

  • 01.11.2012 9:26 AM PDT

Stop arguing over imaginary -blam!-. May as well argue over Santa Claus. There will never be proof that there is/was a god - and before people start saying "HERP DERP PROVE THERE WASN'T ONE ROFLOLOL" well, you are the people who made it up in the first place so we know there isn't one
What created the big bang then? A coalition of genetically modified TR-909s with extra distortion?

You honestly have to try to get banned on this site. But, that's just my own experience.

  • 01.11.2012 9:28 AM PDT

Posted by: FALSE R3ALITYx
Bricypoo's custom user title = Ultra Lame Thread Maker


Posted by: True Underdog
Only after we ban Bricypoo.

Well, I haven't been breaking the rules in a while but I know before they gave out quite a few warnings. I remember getting a lot of warnings that really should have just been flat out bans...

  • 01.11.2012 9:29 AM PDT
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Well, here we are. I guess that it was destined to come to this.

Posted by: Yax
They still deserve a ban in those cases but permanently banning them is a different matter entirely. The permanent ban is when it can became detrimental to the community.

You still haven't explained how that is the case. Their removal was due to their willingness to place the community at risk, how is the removal of such a risk a detriment?


Posted by: Yax
Posted by: Recon Number 54
Your whole post reeks of hyperbole.

Dear Pot,

You're black.

Love, The Kettle

Posted by: Yax
Realistically, if it was as serious as you make it sound, there would be a consistent approach from the entire moderation team. They would all dish out permanent bans for it, instead of it being at the moderator's personal discretion.

I am willing to publicly and privately explain my reasons, and listen to counter arguments. I have done so on numerous occasions. I am not blind to the fact that my view is unpopular with some and others consider it unreasonable (or that it puts them at risk). I understand the counterpoints, I just don't agree with their conclusions. But (even as we speak) I am more than happy to continue to explain my reasoning and listen to and appreciate any discussion on the matter. I am not inflexible, as a matter of fact I'm not 100% comfortable with the label of "zero tolerance" (even though I use it myself). I understand that there can be misunderstandings and unclear statements.

I try to be reasonably certain before I act. Here's an example. So is THAT "zero tolerance"? If he had said "yes, I want to get retail content without having to pay for it", I would have then permabanned him. But since his request and intent wasn't clear, I got clarification. But someone who is blatant, bragging, and doesn't appear to think that "there is anything wrong" with using this site to openly flaunt their violation of the law AND their membership agreement? That person (regardless of their other contributions) is NOT helping the community in my opinion.

You are unaware of and not privy to the internal discussions (and trust me, there are plenty) between the moderators and our management. All it would take for me to alter my practice is a single word. "Stop".

But that word has to come from our hosts or collectively from my colleagues. I will accept such direction if it does. But from those sources only. Not from a member or even a number of members who find my practices "unreasonable" or "unfair".

  • 01.11.2012 9:39 AM PDT