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This topic has moved here: Subject: Let's talk general forum moderation vs. bnet moderation.
  • Subject: Let's talk general forum moderation vs. bnet moderation.
Subject: Let's talk general forum moderation vs. bnet moderation.


Posted by: Der Flatulator6

Posted by: Zealot Tony
Posted by: Der Flatulator6
Posted by: Zealot Tony
As other users have mentioned, the moderators don't cognitively think like a "hive-mind", more so have different perspectives on the rules and how they enforce them.

I can't speak for the moderators here, but as a member of the moderation team at Halo Waypoint, I can say that any decisions that aren't clear cut are discussed with other moderators before a decision is made, and/or action is taken. So we kinda are like a "hive-mind".

Yes, discussion would be encouraged when a moderator is unsure about how to handle a particular situation. However, a confident result which one moderator issues may be different to how another moderator deals with the same situation - they make this decision without consolidating anyone else, under the assumption that it is the right choice. I don't consider this as a "hive-mind" sort of behaviour (although there may other area of moderation which require it).
As true as that may be, moderation is often simple when you have rules to go by. What's spam is spam, flaming is flaming, etc. However judgement calls are common, but as a rule, a decision that isn't clear cut, should be discussed. I'm not going into the details of the process, but you should be aware that there is more discussion going on than you think.


Only thing is moderation over at waypoint is much too tough on the competetive players from over here. So most around 250 or more don't bother to go on your site. It has gotten to the point where a previous mod from your site had stated that moderation had been taken too far. One of your mods decided to state holding the objective was cheating. In all of my life in gaming (20) years I have never heard such a false statement.

[Edited on 01.12.2012 5:13 AM PST]

  • 01.12.2012 5:09 AM PDT

READ IT.

I won the Star. With this on Week 18.

No, I mean... because PIRACY is illegal, the discussion would turn into flame wars. SOme people would get annoyed, some would be super pissed off, because some might say "it is okay in moderation". And then goes out of control and a Ninja has to carpet ban.
Posted by: Muzza777
Piracy is illegal but discussion of it is not.
Posted by: Alex the Awesome

Posted by: BadBall3r47
I'm just not sure as to what length we can discuss piracy.

It's illegal... discussing it will cause major problems.

  • 01.12.2012 5:37 AM PDT
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Posted by: Cobravert
I just saw a green monkey nut shot a small tan lizard(?) in a gunny sack.


Posted by: x Foman123 x

Posted by: chubbz

Posted by: spartain ken 15

Posted by: chubbz
Sorry, Recon, but I fail to see how discussion of piracy, or declaring intent to pirate, is THAT much of a danger to the existence of this site. I really don't. I mean, maybe linking to pirating sites, but piracy discussion? How can you moderate the acts people do outside of this site?


Piracy is illegal and should not be discussed here.


The discussion of piracy is not illegal. That would be an infringement on free speech(inb4youhavenorightsplaynicehurrdurrderpityderp). Either way, it doesn't apply to my point of moderating an action performed outside of this site. I don't see how punishing discussion of piracy beyond the act of linking torrents/pirate sites is logical OR justified. Would you like to try again?
Are you serious or just playing devil's advocate? I don't want to believe you're truthfully sitting on the website of a software developer acting indignant and mocking others about the prohibition of discussion of software piracy, but if you are, you need to rethink your position.

And you actually dared to bring up free speech. Jesus you're brave. Talk about "derpity derp."


Wayyyyy off the mark.


Posted by: coolmike699

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Are you serious or just playing devil's advocate? I don't want to believe you're truthfully sitting on the website of a software developer acting indignant and mocking others about the prohibition of discussion of software piracy, but if you are, you need to rethink your position.

And you actually dared to bring up free speech. Jesus you're brave. Talk about "derpity derp."


Discussing something and advocating it are two entirely different things. He even specified "beyond linking to illegal content". And he said that free speech "doesn't apply to my point of moderating an action performed outside of this site". Freedom of speech is simply the counterargument to "discussing piracyb is illegal".

And when he said "inb4youhavenorightsplaynicehurrdurrderpityderp", that's not mocking anyone, that's just acknowledging he's considered the argument that "this is Bungie's site" and found it to be irrelevant to his point.

Wait, aren't you a lawyer for the government? Isn't carefully reading what your opponent says to use it against him your job? Don't you have to correctly interpret unclear language all the time?


Basically this. What I said wasn't to be taken as only in the context of this site, it was in general. Discussion of piracy isn't illegal, so I don't see the punishment of anything piracy-related beyond linking it as being justified. I pirate things all of the time. Will I get banned for saying so? According to Recon, I will, and that's why I think it's unnecessary.

[Edited on 01.12.2012 3:53 PM PST]

  • 01.12.2012 3:48 PM PDT
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yeah, I'm not sure why talking about torrents would be illegal.
There are millions of torrents for download that are perfectly legal, torrents don't necessarily have to contain copyrighted material.

And when we talk about things like SOPA, it implies piracy and torrents, so is the discussion of SOPA banned? Because I have seen hundreds of threads about this and in some cases even mods reply to it. In this case, then wouldn't the mods be breaking the rules by replying to a thread in which piracy is being discussed?

  • 01.12.2012 6:30 PM PDT

Ah, someone leaked. Now to find the leak and.... plug it.
With justice.

I use coup 5
Never Played halo 1 = Invalid opinion
Bloom isn't whats broken, its your idea of what good is and your opinion
Thats like saying uber nerf armor lock because like 20 percent of the community hates it. Oh wait..................

I appreciate the mods here.
I find each of them reasonable in their decisions.
I trust them to do wut is right for our community.
Not to hate on the new company but in comparison Bungie is 10000 times better than 343 in every possible way.

The only thing 343 has going for them is Franky.

Bungie's games and website is far better
End of story as far as im concered

  • 01.12.2012 6:38 PM PDT


Posted by: L00
Posted by: coolmike699
. . . The absolute most that discussing, encouraging, or enabling "real crimes" on this site would bring is a subpoena. There's no laws against discussing, instructing on, or encouraging crime (it's the First Amendment) . . .
Posted by: chubbz
The discussion of piracy is not illegal. That would be an infringement on free speech . . .
Bringing up first amendment rights on Bungie always makes me chuckle a little. For a reminder, since we obviously haven't read it in a while, it says:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.See the very first word? "Congress?" Congress shall make no law . . . . So unless Bungie = Congress, it's 100% irrelevant to the conversation.

I mean, I guess you could write enough Bungie employees in to at least take over the Senate if they were eligible to run in a bunch of different districts and try to get them to push through some legislation banning idlers, but I'm sure that'd be pretty controversial.


You forgot the part where I said:

Posted by: coolmike699
I'm saying that there's no law against advocating illegal activity, not that we should be allowed to here. If I was a mod, I'd ban people for it, too.

  • 01.12.2012 7:37 PM PDT

Ah, someone leaked. Now to find the leak and.... plug it.
With justice.

I use coup 5
Never Played halo 1 = Invalid opinion
Bloom isn't whats broken, its your idea of what good is and your opinion
Thats like saying uber nerf armor lock because like 20 percent of the community hates it. Oh wait..................

And about freedom of speech on bungie.net.

I think that discusion of piracy in relation to sopa and pipa is a good thing. The mods here have also been reasonable when it comes to letting us express ourselves We get away with alot here

  • 01.12.2012 7:45 PM PDT

I'm pretty cool with B.net Moderation. Any time I've been banned on B.Net it's because I've broken a rule... The only reason I broke the rule though was because I forgot the rule existed...

The only time I ever disagreed with a ban was when I posted in a forum game, and later the whole thread got carpet banned... Now I understand I broke the rule and that my ban was justified... But I didn't agree with the bans of those who only tryed to warn us. A few people said that the thread would get locked and us banned and then they got banned to...

The worst part about that ban was like... a month after the ban the rule got changed!

[Edited on 01.12.2012 7:57 PM PST]

  • 01.12.2012 7:55 PM PDT


Posted by: Old Papa Rich
I think you assume a lot with your flow charts. Honestly, it does work like you showed in your first one. None of us ban flippantly. And we warn people. A lot. I mean for me at least, I warn people 50 times more than I ban, maybe more.

And as for the benefit to the community argument, that's highly subjective. I garentee you, that a ninja issuing a ban sees it as a beneficial move. You may not agree when on the receiving end, but that's a different story.


Garentee?

I have no issues with the banning of people, but that most likely is the result of me having never been banned. I was warned once, and I felt that it was uncalled for, since my post was definitely not against the rules (as I pointed out at the time).

All I truly ask for is a garentee that the moderators think "If I posted this, would I feel bad about it?"

  • 01.12.2012 8:00 PM PDT


Posted by: Recon Number 54
No one can write a program, construct a flow-chart, lay out a diagram that can/will handle human-to-human interactions


If every human on Earth were to enter a single elimination coin flipping tournament, there would be one person that would win 34 coin tosses in a row.

The fact that that can happen mean that it is possible to accomplish everything you mentioned. My logic is impeccable.

  • 01.12.2012 8:09 PM PDT
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Posted by: coolmike699
Posted by: L00
Posted by: coolmike699
. . . The absolute most that discussing, encouraging, or enabling "real crimes" on this site would bring is a subpoena. There's no laws against discussing, instructing on, or encouraging crime (it's the First Amendment) . . .
Posted by: chubbz
The discussion of piracy is not illegal. That would be an infringement on free speech . . .
Bringing up first amendment rights on Bungie always makes me chuckle a little. For a reminder, since we obviously haven't read it in a while, it says:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.See the very first word? "Congress?" Congress shall make no law . . . . So unless Bungie = Congress, it's 100% irrelevant to the conversation.

I mean, I guess you could write enough Bungie employees in to at least take over the Senate if they were eligible to run in a bunch of different districts and try to get them to push through some legislation banning idlers, but I'm sure that'd be pretty controversial.


You forgot the part where I said:

Posted by: coolmike699
I'm saying that there's no law against advocating illegal activity, not that we should be allowed to here. If I was a mod, I'd ban people for it, too.
No, I didn't miss that part. I was just pointing out that the "freedom of speech" stuff is totally irrelevant when it comes to rules here or in any other privately-owned venue. There's really no point in bringing it up, as both you and chubbz did.

  • 01.13.2012 4:21 AM PDT
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Posted by: r c takedown
Yax is a shining beacon in these dark times. You should all strive to be more like Yax.

Posted by: Old Papa Rich
I think you assume a lot with your flow charts.
The first one I made when just thinking of how, ideally, forums should be ran. I didn't make it thinking "bnet mods don't do this but they should" and the second one was made as an afterthought which was sort of meant to be a "what NOT to do" example but I guess I kind of made it look like an attack on the mods.

I admit this thread could've used a lot more thought when I was making it. And also, once again, want to clear up that there aren't any particular mods that I think are bad, even Recon is fine, I just strongly disagree with him on one of his habits.

Posted by: Recon Number 54
But someone who is blatant, bragging, and doesn't appear to think that "there is anything wrong" with using this site to openly flaunt their violation of the law AND their membership agreement? That person (regardless of their other contributions) is NOT helping the community in my opinion.
Sure, he isn't helping, but a brief moment of "one time I illegally downloaded something" does not outdo what could be years of quality contributions to the site/community. I guess that's where it really comes down to it though, I value members and see their pirating confessions as minor but to you it changes everything about that person.

I wonder what would happen if a mod let it slip that they've pirated content before.

Posted by: Achronos
And that word won't ever come. Of all the rules, the things under "Render Unto..." clause in the code of conduct are very serious. For some types of those violations, the moderators are even directed to report details to us so that we can determine if the authorities need to be called or at least prepare for when/if the authorities call (both have happened several times). That's how serious we take it.
I guess I am thinking solely about running a forum/community instead of the bigger picture, which is that Bungie is also about business. And as such, need to be on top of all the legal mumbo-jumbo and take things super-serious.

If you're trying to use bungie.net for illegal activities, expect your account to be permabanned. That is NOT a line you want to test. The idea that this is somehow heavy handed, or bad for the community, or hyperbole, is simply wrong and more than a little naive.I might just be nit-picking but to me "trying to use bungie.net for illegal activities" is very different to "confessing/discussing your illegal activities on the bungie.net forums". But I'll assume they mean just about the same thing to you.

So regardless of that, there's still something I don't understand. If it is this serious, why doesn't the rest of the moderating team seem to have the same "permanent ban for piracy" policy? Or is it just that Recon is the only person that openly discusses it so I haven't noticed the others?

  • 01.13.2012 4:29 AM PDT
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Posted by: stephenrg0228
B.net Moderation is blahhh too me.
I have to agree with this in a lot of ways. No offence but I see a lot of mods banning people for either "enjoying themselves" or just for a rediculous reason, So yeah it's bad moderation to me.

[Edited on 01.13.2012 6:26 AM PST]

  • 01.13.2012 6:24 AM PDT

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| Terms of Use | Code of Conduct |

Look, at the end of the day, Bungie is a private company whose website and forum you use under their Terms of Use and Code of Conduct. The employees and volunteers who they select to guide the community and moderate the forums are the arbitrators and lawmakers as far as things go here.

They are human, which means they are bound to make mistakes and have errors in judgment just as easily as the rest of us do, that they may at times apply their personal experience or ideology or judgment in a subjective manner, that they may get argumentative over certain topics. And at the end of the day, that entire package is probably why Bungie picked them for the job, because that package works more times than it doesn't.

They are also a team comprised of very different individuals, which means they don't always act in unison and with perfectly identical standards. Personally, the times I've been warned or blacklisted, I've deserved it. I was younger, hotheaded, and immature. I wrote something when I should have exercised more discretion and I paid the price.

If anything, the mod team here is lenient. I've seen threads locked when numerous people in them could have rightfully banned and I assume only received warnings. A handful of people I've known have become mods over the years, and each of them is a smart, thoughtful person that fully deserves the title.

  • 01.14.2012 9:43 PM PDT