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Subject: Forerunner Physiology
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

I think Forthencho can give us more insight


"......Beside her stood the Didact, a great, hulking presence, my sworn enemy for fifty-three years of continuous battle. Yet he had not aged. Forerunners live so very long; human lives are like candle flames flickering and guttering before their steady torches.

Even though we had stripped off our uniforms, doing our best to erase all evidence of our identities and ranks, the Didact found me, the Lord of Admirals, who had opposed him longer and more successfully than any other. He bent beside me, hands clasped as if he were a supplicant before a shrine. And this is what he said to me...."




In my memory i was going to tell you that Forerunners were massive even to Ancient man (I though forthencho implied so).
But after re-reading that part again The tone in which he says "hulking" doesn't make it seem as if a true hulk is towering over him. It seems more like he is comparing the Didact to the other forerunners and commenting on the visual affect of seeing him.


You then have the part where Didact bends down to talk to him. If Didact is about 15-16 feel tall him bending down would put him around the sizes of the covenant races no? i am thinking about 10 feet? The wording is highly important; The Didact did not have to get on his knees to talk to Forthencho(As his wife did) nor did he have to just sit entirely on the floor to be face to face with him.


Thus Ancient man must have been sizable. Especially when you consider that Forthencho is on the ground himself. I know we don't have any math to back this recent stuff up but are we going to put Forthencho around the 10 foot mark, unofficially from what we have?

  • 01.19.2012 7:42 AM PDT
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Madara, Tobi....call me whatever you want. I'M NO ONE. I DON'T WANT TO BE ANYONE. ALL I CARE ABOUT IS COMPLETING THE MOON'S EYE PLAN."


Posted by: grey101
I think Forthencho can give us more insight


"......Beside her stood the Didact, a great, hulking presence, my sworn enemy for fifty-three years of continuous battle. Yet he had not aged. Forerunners live so very long; human lives are like candle flames flickering and guttering before their steady torches.

Even though we had stripped off our uniforms, doing our best to erase all evidence of our identities and ranks, the Didact found me, the Lord of Admirals, who had opposed him longer and more successfully than any other. He bent beside me, hands clasped as if he were a supplicant before a shrine. And this is what he said to me...."




In my memory i was going to tell you that Forerunners were massive even to Ancient man (I though forthencho implied so).
But after re-reading that part again The tone in which he says "hulking" doesn't make it seem as if a true hulk is towering over him. It seems more like he is comparing the Didact to the other forerunners and commenting on the visual affect of seeing him.


You then have the part where Didact bends down to talk to him. If Didact is about 15-16 feel tall him bending down would put him around the sizes of the covenant races no? i am thinking about 10 feet? The wording is highly important; The Didact did not have to get on his knees to talk to Forthencho(As his wife did) nor did he have to just sit entirely on the floor to be face to face with him.


Thus Ancient man must have been sizable. Especially when you consider that Forthencho is on the ground himself. I know we don't have any math to back this recent stuff up but are we going to put Forthencho around the 10 foot mark, unofficially from what we have?


I actually haven't read primordium fully, not enough time, but thanks for putting that up, very interesting. seeing how if forthencho were around 6ft, then the didact would have to get on his knees and bend to be on level with him. Alright, 10 ft seems plausible.

  • 01.19.2012 7:49 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

No problem. Which is still large, i am wondering how strong they were as a whole because none of them tried attacking the forerunners on the ground even though they vastly outnumbered them. (Yes i am aware of their condition and of the ships in orbit).


  • 01.19.2012 7:52 AM PDT
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Madara, Tobi....call me whatever you want. I'M NO ONE. I DON'T WANT TO BE ANYONE. ALL I CARE ABOUT IS COMPLETING THE MOON'S EYE PLAN."


Posted by: grey101
No problem. Which is still large, i am wondering how strong they were as a whole because none of them tried attacking the forerunners on the ground even though they vastly outnumbered them. (Yes i am aware of their condition and of the ships in orbit).


It interests me so much because bear went through so much to hype the ancient humans up in cryptum, to the point where he made them sound better than, or at least more competent than the forerunner. And in order to keep their image up, as the only race to ever catch up to and challenge the forerunner, it would only make sense that their warriors could fight at least on par with the warrior servants and not get dominated as the present day humans do against the elites and brutes.

  • 01.19.2012 8:09 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: qirahs

Posted by: grey101
No problem. Which is still large, i am wondering how strong they were as a whole because none of them tried attacking the forerunners on the ground even though they vastly outnumbered them. (Yes i am aware of their condition and of the ships in orbit).


It interests me so much because bear went through so much to hype the ancient humans up in cryptum, to the point where he made them sound better than, or at least more competent than the forerunner. And in order to keep their image up, as the only race to ever catch up to and challenge the forerunner, it would only make sense that their warriors could fight at least on par with the warrior servants and not get dominated as the present day humans do against the elites and brutes.


Which might be why the Forerunners were expressing themselves so Greatly about humanity regaining many of their forms.



I feel like we need to talk about lifespan now. Forerunner armor is the main reason they live so long and that was only a recent invention. As Primordium further supports this with them not having it (evident by the excerpt i gave).
But even without Armor Forthencho still noted how the Didact didn't Age in the last 53 years while he had. Which brings me to the point.

He fought for 53 years and from the description of him given by chakas (which i can post) nothing was said about him looking old or wrinkly. So he still might have had some years in him. But i would assume that if he is an Admiral that he must have been in his 50's to even get to that rank regardless of being born into "royalty".

So how long could ancient man live? Riser's people have been implied to live for a few hundred years since his grandfather was around when Didact's cryptum was put on earth. you later get his father and then him. Three Generations in 1,000 years.

  • 01.19.2012 8:24 AM PDT

Urgh, this is something about the Forerunner trilogy I very much disliked. I don't like thinking of the Didact as the BFG. It's hard enough relating to an alien race without them being giants.

  • 01.19.2012 8:31 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Wolverfrog
Urgh, this is something about the Forerunner trilogy I very much disliked. I don't like thinking of the Didact as the BFG. It's hard enough relating to an alien race without them being giants.


?

It is just size which doesn't matter in this discussion. Primordium did a good job of pointing out little things here and there that show how much alike both races are. You could say the Forerunner's size is another contributor to their arrogance. In which i instantly think of Bornstellar stomping around in his armor on Earth like he is the -blam!- despite only being 12 years old.

  • 01.19.2012 8:36 AM PDT
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Madara, Tobi....call me whatever you want. I'M NO ONE. I DON'T WANT TO BE ANYONE. ALL I CARE ABOUT IS COMPLETING THE MOON'S EYE PLAN."

i've always thought that the forerunner genetically prolonged their lifespans long ago, sort of like how the present day san-shyuum have. The only difference is that they are tier-1, their technology would probably have them living for hundreds to thousands of years without armor at least. Another point i noticed is that the forerunner liked living lavishly, at least the builders, perhaps they were keen on living as long as possible, or were just afraid of death.

The humans as their technological equals could have probably done the same to their own bodies, but didn't for whatever reason. Perhaps they had some sort of ethical code of conduct that forbade them from becoming essentially "immortal", or perhaps they simply thought that it was pointless to run from death.

That isn't to say they don't live past 300 years of age, but from what riser said, some sub-species of humans were naturally long-lived. Forthencho and his sub-species were most likely warrior class of some sort, their biology would have differed from riser's, they probably lived past their 200 hundreds' but not as long as riser's people.

This is mostly conjecture on my part

  • 01.19.2012 8:40 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Good Points.

  • 01.19.2012 8:43 AM PDT
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Madara, Tobi....call me whatever you want. I'M NO ONE. I DON'T WANT TO BE ANYONE. ALL I CARE ABOUT IS COMPLETING THE MOON'S EYE PLAN."

this is the overall theme i get from the books concerning the ancient humans, it sounds to me like the forerunner were arrogant, lived in homes miles across, possessed entire planets to themselvs (at least the builders), and lived indefinitely. Where as the humans were sort of the opposite.

  • 01.19.2012 8:49 AM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

It was actually mentioned in Primordium (don't remember exactly, but around the halfway point) that the Forerunners were technologically superior to humans. They never said by how much, only that they were better. The descriptions the Lord of Admirals gives us also seems to suggest that humans were smaller than Forerunners and had significantly shorter life spans.
Posted by: Forerunner13
Something interesting to note is that on the level "Sacred Icon" in Halo 2 the first switch you press has a hand on it. A hand with six fingers.

That's very interesting, it's be a while since I've played Halo 2 haha...maybe I'll have to break it out again...

The hand in question had two thumbs, so it is possible that it is actually two five fingered hands layered atop one another.

  • 01.19.2012 9:02 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: qirahs
this is the overall theme i get from the books concerning the ancient humans, it sounds to me like the forerunner were arrogant, lived in homes miles across, possessed entire planets to themselvs (at least the builders), and lived indefinitely. Where as the humans were sort of the opposite.


Exactly. Forerunners wanted to control the entire Galaxy under the Falsehood of a "Mantle". Which i am sure they subconsciously knew wasn't true given The comments they had on Ancient man and other reasons.


Forthencho's comments and tactics in Primordium were so godly I Swear Greg must have gotten from "The Art of War" Itself.




My own ships swept back and forth hundreds of times across the star system, pushing back pinpoint orbital incursions before they could establish corridors of least energy dominance.

In all such battles, within the vast reaches of a stellar system, hyperspacial technologies give only a slight advantage; tactics in such close quarters depend on stable positions established near planetary objectives, where triangulations of fire can focus on mass-delivery portals and turn them into logjams of debris and destruction.

Occupation of vast reaches of space means nothing. It is control of population centers and essential resources that determines victory or defeat.




Anybody that has knowledge of advance military tactics or even an adept understand of the basic ones instantly had a mindgasm while reading that passage. It should that humans indeed had a better understanding when it came to battle; As they understood the battlefield and knew the appropriate tactics to use when the conditions called for it. While the forerunners just throw their biggest and most advanced ships into the fray expecting the job to be done.

Sun Tzu would have been proud or rather, Forthencho would have been proud of him.


Now for the planetary statement





The dream-emotions conveyed by the Lord of Admirals felt sharp and raw, like the waft from a freshly slaughtered animal . . . strange juxtapositions of pain and pleasure, hidden fear and anticipation, a glowing spark of battle-rage kept from flaringheld in reserve.

For these dreams spoke of leave-taking and farewell, of the last night before a grand battle that would spread across a hundred thousand light-years to determine the fate of a thousand suns and twenty thousand worlds.


I cannot express how important this passages are. They show that humans understood management and efficiency. They didn't just colonize every single planet the came across just to show how powerful they are and to feed their gluttonous population.
They colonized a number of planets and micro-managed the hell out of them to the point they had a relatively small empire that rivaled the forerunners, which themselves stated was impressive.

They understood that numbers aren't everything nor is being able to make mile long houses that you hardly venture in. They are honestly superior to the forerunners in every philosophical and practical way.

I would say the Forerunners have Technology and Strength While the Humans Have The Smarts and understanding. Especially since Cryptum Gave the vibe that Forerunner tech is based off the Precursors, with them finding all their technology all over the place. While the Didact was shocked at the humans pushing through Precursor tech, he wasn't shocked at the use of it.

  • 01.19.2012 9:10 AM PDT
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Posted by: chotato
smart, interesting, seems out of place.


Official fan of Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, (Problem with that?) Halo, and Bungie, also a total gaming junkie.

Posted by: grey101
Forerunners are from 8-15/16feet.

Bornstellar was roughly eight and a half feet and we did some measurements that put the didact to about 15-16 feet. I think his mom was about 10 feet, i don't re-call.


Holy crap, I missed that part of Cryptum. Man Chief is going to look like a Midget compared to them.

  • 01.19.2012 9:12 AM PDT

"It will not be we who reach Alpha Centauri, and the other nearby stars, it will be a species very like us, but with more of our strengths and fewer of our weaknesses, more confident, far-seeing, capable, and prudent. For all our failings, despite our limitations and fallibilities, we humans are capable of greatness."-Carl Sagan

If Forerunners are so large that would explain in Halo how all Forerunner architecture was larger than human scale. Such as the size of the Forerunner doors and giant alley ways.


  • 01.19.2012 1:34 PM PDT
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Madara, Tobi....call me whatever you want. I'M NO ONE. I DON'T WANT TO BE ANYONE. ALL I CARE ABOUT IS COMPLETING THE MOON'S EYE PLAN."


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: qirahs
this is the overall theme i get from the books concerning the ancient humans, it sounds to me like the forerunner were arrogant, lived in homes miles across, possessed entire planets to themselvs (at least the builders), and lived indefinitely. Where as the humans were sort of the opposite.


Exactly. Forerunners wanted to control the entire Galaxy under the Falsehood of a "Mantle". Which i am sure they subconsciously knew wasn't true given The comments they had on Ancient man and other reasons.


Forthencho's comments and tactics in Primordium were so godly I Swear Greg must have gotten from "The Art of War" Itself.




My own ships swept back and forth hundreds of times across the star system, pushing back pinpoint orbital incursions before they could establish corridors of least energy dominance.

In all such battles, within the vast reaches of a stellar system, hyperspacial technologies give only a slight advantage; tactics in such close quarters depend on stable positions established near planetary objectives, where triangulations of fire can focus on mass-delivery portals and turn them into logjams of debris and destruction.

Occupation of vast reaches of space means nothing. It is control of population centers and essential resources that determines victory or defeat.




Anybody that has knowledge of advance military tactics or even an adept understand of the basic ones instantly had a mindgasm while reading that passage. It should that humans indeed had a better understanding when it came to battle; As they understood the battlefield and knew the appropriate tactics to use when the conditions called for it. While the forerunners just throw their biggest and most advanced ships into the fray expecting the job to be done.

Sun Tzu would have been proud or rather, Forthencho would have been proud of him.


Now for the planetary statement





The dream-emotions conveyed by the Lord of Admirals felt sharp and raw, like the waft from a freshly slaughtered animal . . . strange juxtapositions of pain and pleasure, hidden fear and anticipation, a glowing spark of battle-rage kept from flaringheld in reserve.

For these dreams spoke of leave-taking and farewell, of the last night before a grand battle that would spread across a hundred thousand light-years to determine the fate of a thousand suns and twenty thousand worlds.


I cannot express how important this passages are. They show that humans understood management and efficiency. They didn't just colonize every single planet the came across just to show how powerful they are and to feed their gluttonous population.
They colonized a number of planets and micro-managed the hell out of them to the point they had a relatively small empire that rivaled the forerunners, which themselves stated was impressive.

They understood that numbers aren't everything nor is being able to make mile long houses that you hardly venture in. They are honestly superior to the forerunners in every philosophical and practical way.

I would say the Forerunners have Technology and Strength While the Humans Have The Smarts and understanding. Especially since Cryptum Gave the vibe that Forerunner tech is based off the Precursors, with them finding all their technology all over the place. While the Didact was shocked at the humans pushing through Precursor tech, he wasn't shocked at the use of it.

wow. . . i really have to finish primordium now, forthencho is shaping up to be even better than i thought.

So it's exactly as i previously thought, the humans were superior to the forerunner for that exact reason, as you said they were masters of logistics and efficiency. Despite having what i remember from cryptum, a few hundred worlds compared the forerunner's 3 million, they still managed to take the forerunner and the flood on all at once. Using pure brain power alone, they gave the forerunner a run for their money, and with more than 1/3 of their population already sacrificed (in vain apparently) for the flood.

Further more, i believe the battle for charum hakkor speaks for itself, humans centered on one measly planet, harnessing precursor technology that they managed to crack and incorporate held off the full forerunner naval might for over 50 years.

Forthencho really sounds awesome, im sure not even preston cole would compare. . .

  • 01.19.2012 7:30 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

If you want me to PM you the full passages since you haven't the time to read the book then PM me. The war lasted 53 years (i was only off by 3 :) ) with the battle for Charum Hakkor lasting 3 years.

But they still gave the forerunners a run for their money, Forthencho takes pride when reminiscing about destroying their planets.

Seriously, Forthencho's comments were the main thing keeping me engaged during the entire halo walk, which i think was the perverse point of the book.

  • 01.20.2012 7:03 AM PDT
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Posted By Wolverfrog Urgh, this is something about the Forerunner trilogy I very much disliked. I don't like thinking of the Didact as the BFG. It's hard enough relating to an alien race without them being giants.

I definitely agree with you on this, Bornstellar was fairly easy enough, 8-9 ft--this puts him in Elite territory. But 12-15 ft. average? Makes it much harder to relate to a race of giants...

  • 01.20.2012 7:23 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Forerunner13
Posted By Wolverfrog Urgh, this is something about the Forerunner trilogy I very much disliked. I don't like thinking of the Didact as the BFG. It's hard enough relating to an alien race without them being giants.

I definitely agree with you on this, Bornstellar was fairly easy enough, 8-9 ft--this puts him in Elite territory. But 12-15 ft. average? Makes it much harder to relate to a race of giants...

I don't understand this logic. Have any of you even stood next to a 7 foot tall human? Pretty tall beings, so i don't understand how you can "Relate" to alien beings far taller than you.

  • 01.20.2012 7:26 AM PDT

I know that we already covered the issue of the game not sized and scaled correctly, but wouldn't the halo arrays have to have fairly massive interiors,corridors, halls, doorways to fit forerunner beings?

  • 01.20.2012 8:17 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: EGO SUM OPTIMUS
I know that we already covered the issue of the game not sized and scaled correctly, but wouldn't the halo arrays have to have fairly massive interiors,corridors, halls, doorways to fit forerunner beings?


They Do..

  • 01.20.2012 8:23 AM PDT

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