Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Halo: Reach PoA cut-scene Issue (Revised version)
  • Subject: Halo: Reach PoA cut-scene Issue (Revised version)
Subject: Halo: Reach PoA cut-scene Issue (Revised version)

Waypoint Moderators aren't really Moderators, just power hungry and its goal is defend their beloved Halo at all costs. (Meaning that they wank Halo too much.)

BS Angel is alleged foe so, be wary of Waypoint and its moderators! Do not attempt to move to Waypoint. Enter your own risk.

*WARNING* IT IS MY OPINION.

Well, folks. I used to debate against PoA being on ground, explained how it is impossible. However, I have several things that I discovered earlier that issue about PoA being on ground is no longer issue anymore.

1.) Total of energy unleashed from the eight boosters on the PoA is about 300 million newton thrust. (based on Halycon's mass of 30,000 tons) How I can translate something to you guys here? It's helluva lot of energy unleashed. It means that each booster is about 37,500,000 newton thrust. Which I can safely say that it is enough energy to propel the Pillar of Autumn off of the ground. However, there is a factor assisting this operation which it will be explained in next paragraph.

2.) Anti-Gravity Technology. I used to argue that latter is not enough to propel the ship off but I was wrong. I overlooked a crucial part in Fall of Reach where implied that Humanity did not know about artificial gravity technology until they commenced first boarding operation during UNSC Commonwealth and its SPARTANs flux. Also during construction of PoA, it was implied that it had rotational gravity where it assisted with keeping its crew on feet without floating in the air caused by zero gravity in space. So it means that PoA had anti-gravity technology that assisted with liftoff of the Reach.

So that's my 2 cents for now. I hope that it resolves issue with PoA being on ground in Halo: Reach.

A post about newtons for PoA's boosters

[Edited on 01.12.2012 2:31 PM PST]

  • 01.12.2012 2:05 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

Can you link to where the thrust for the rockets was calculated? Other then that, nice work.

  • 01.12.2012 2:07 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Honorable Heroic Member

http://www.bungie.net/fanclub/halohaven/Group/GroupHome.aspx

Join Halo Haven! (Group Leader: A 3 Legged Goat)

(To discuss Halo 4.)

Elder, give it up, we have discussed this enough.

We don't know how powerful the boosters are, so we cannot prove nor disprove whether it was possible.

Also you still haven't explained how Frigates float.

  • 01.12.2012 2:23 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

Being a physics junkie, let's mess around with those numbers a bit.

The escape velocity (velocity necessary to escape planet and shoot off into space is) is sqrt(2GM/r)

Let's use the mass of the Earth for the mass of Reach, and then appropriately analyze the results in the end.

sqrt(2*6.67E-11*5.97E24/6378100) = 11200 m/s

The kinetic energy required to move the PoA at that speed is .5(27000000)(11200)(11200) = 1.69E15 J

Energy is just the product of force and distance, so let's divide the given energy by the thickness of the atmosphere (for Earth for argument sake).

1.69E15/400000.

The force comes about to around 4.2 billion newtons of force.

Of course, the Earth is larger than Reach, and the atmospheric thickness is entirely unknown. Even if that boils it down to 2 billion newtons - and that's being very generous - anti-gravity technology has to provide some support, rather, a lot of support.


  • 01.12.2012 2:26 PM PDT

Waypoint Moderators aren't really Moderators, just power hungry and its goal is defend their beloved Halo at all costs. (Meaning that they wank Halo too much.)

BS Angel is alleged foe so, be wary of Waypoint and its moderators! Do not attempt to move to Waypoint. Enter your own risk.

*WARNING* IT IS MY OPINION.


Posted by: Quantam
Elder, give it up, we have discussed this enough.

We don't know how powerful the boosters are, so we cannot prove nor disprove whether it was possible.

Also you still haven't explained how Frigates float.


Learn to read. I was acknowledging that I made several mistakes on debating against the PoA and found new evidence supporting the PoA's capacity to lift off in atmosphere.

I ALREADY GAVE YOU THRUST CAPACITY BASED ON MASS OF SHIP. Did you read first part?

So anyway, I'm just telling that PoA issue is no longer issue at all.

Like I said, learn to read.

  • 01.12.2012 2:27 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Veteran Legendary Member

Don't be stupid like I was! Check to see what that Forum Ninja is saying to you!

"I may not like what you say, but I will defend your right to the death to say it!"

"Tolerance is a virtue, and virtue builds character."
-Onyx81

Yes but once the Thrusters get it off the ground, the POA uses it's primary engines to lift off. Considering that Human ships can go considerable speeds in space, I'd say it's safe to assume it's engines are alone enough for it to leave reach.

  • 01.12.2012 2:45 PM PDT

Waypoint Moderators aren't really Moderators, just power hungry and its goal is defend their beloved Halo at all costs. (Meaning that they wank Halo too much.)

BS Angel is alleged foe so, be wary of Waypoint and its moderators! Do not attempt to move to Waypoint. Enter your own risk.

*WARNING* IT IS MY OPINION.


Posted by: Onyx81
Yes but once the Thrusters get it off the ground, the POA uses it's primary engines to lift off. Considering that Human ships can go considerable speeds in space, I'd say it's safe to assume it's engines are alone enough for it to leave reach.


Yeah. Thrusters were enough to "lift" the PoA off then use anti-gravity technology and main engines to basically leave the planet.

  • 01.12.2012 2:49 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: Plasma Prestige
Being a physics junkie, let's mess around with those numbers a bit.

The escape velocity (velocity necessary to escape planet and shoot off into space is) is sqrt(2GM/r)

Let's use the mass of the Earth for the mass of Reach, and then appropriately analyze the results in the end.

sqrt(2*6.67E-11*5.97E24/6378100) = 11200 m/s

The kinetic energy required to move the PoA at that speed is .5(27000000)(11200)(11200) = 1.69E15 J

Energy is just the product of force and distance, so let's divide the given energy by the thickness of the atmosphere (for Earth for argument sake).

1.69E15/400000.

The force comes about to around 4.2 billion newtons of force.

Of course, the Earth is larger than Reach, and the atmospheric thickness is entirely unknown. Even if that boils it down to 2 billion newtons - and that's being very generous - anti-gravity technology has to provide some support, rather, a lot of support.



IIRC, Reach is slightly larger then Earth. But, like Onyx said, the boosters mainly just lifted PoA of the ground and then the PoA's much larger and much more powerful primary thrusters kicked in. These probably provided the necessary force to lift the PoA out of the atmosphere.

  • 01.12.2012 2:51 PM PDT

aaawwww, what a cute interdimensional being!


Posted by: Quantam
Elder, give it up, we have discussed this enough.

We don't know how powerful the boosters are, so we cannot prove nor disprove whether it was possible.

Also you still haven't explained how Frigates float.


Wouldnt the frigates also have that anti-gravity tech that was used on the PoA?

  • 01.12.2012 2:59 PM PDT

Oly Oly Oxen Free

You can explain it away all you want, frigates in atmosphere is a purely cinematic addition and canonically wrong.

  • 01.12.2012 3:51 PM PDT

Waypoint Moderators aren't really Moderators, just power hungry and its goal is defend their beloved Halo at all costs. (Meaning that they wank Halo too much.)

BS Angel is alleged foe so, be wary of Waypoint and its moderators! Do not attempt to move to Waypoint. Enter your own risk.

*WARNING* IT IS MY OPINION.


Posted by: The Dutchman
You can explain it away all you want, frigates in atmosphere is a purely cinematic addition and canonically wrong.


Source?

Bungie and 343i said visual are canon. So cutscene are canon too. (Well since games are highest level of the canon)

[Edited on 01.12.2012 3:56 PM PST]

  • 01.12.2012 3:56 PM PDT

Oly Oly Oxen Free


Posted by: Elder Bias

Posted by: The Dutchman
You can explain it away all you want, frigates in atmosphere is a purely cinematic addition and canonically wrong.


Source?

Logic?

Bungie and 343i said visual are canon. So cutscene are canon too. (Well since games are highest level of the canon)


Well they WOULD say that. It means they can make cutscenes as hollywood as they like, then simply claim "it's canon, no more questions!". If a covenant ship cannot risk being caught in a gravity well during space combat (first strike methinks)then why can the likes of grafton and IAC just dip in and out? Not to mention the near stationary fleet during the ark portal cutscene in halo 3.

No, i honestly haven't read a definite answer from a bungie writer, so it's all assumptions from us, but the way i see it, Bungie are willing to put Cinematography before science. Which i appreciate, because realism is boring.

  • 01.12.2012 4:31 PM PDT

Waypoint Moderators aren't really Moderators, just power hungry and its goal is defend their beloved Halo at all costs. (Meaning that they wank Halo too much.)

BS Angel is alleged foe so, be wary of Waypoint and its moderators! Do not attempt to move to Waypoint. Enter your own risk.

*WARNING* IT IS MY OPINION.


Posted by: The Dutchman

Posted by: Elder Bias

Posted by: The Dutchman
You can explain it away all you want, frigates in atmosphere is a purely cinematic addition and canonically wrong.


Source?

Logic?

Bungie and 343i said visual are canon. So cutscene are canon too. (Well since games are highest level of the canon)


Well they WOULD say that. It means they can make cutscenes as hollywood as they like, then simply claim "it's canon, no more questions!". If a covenant ship cannot risk being caught in a gravity well during space combat (first strike methinks)then why can the likes of grafton and IAC just dip in and out? Not to mention the near stationary fleet during the ark portal cutscene in halo 3.

No, i honestly haven't read a definite answer from a bungie writer, so it's all assumptions from us, but the way i see it, Bungie are willing to put Cinematography before science. Which i appreciate, because realism is boring.


Logic doesn't matter.

Canon is canon. We'll have to accept that and move on.

  • 01.12.2012 4:45 PM PDT

Updated theory below.

[Edited on 01.12.2012 7:31 PM PST]

  • 01.12.2012 7:00 PM PDT


Posted by: Backfjre
Okay random input, if the PoA was near the equator and launching in the same direction as the rotation of Reach, that would make it significantly easier to lift off.

Earth rotates at 1000mph ish (simple number for the sake of the argument)

To break the atmosphere (the measurement I don't recall exactly) going against the Earth's rotation would both have to be enough to break atmosphere AND overcome this 1000 mph spin, while going with the rotation would make it 1000mph easier to escape atmosphere.

So depending on the direction of launch, the math could imply that the Pillar of Autumn was traveling as much as thousands of miles per hour faster.

So... just throwing it out there.


Okay super edit, did some research on Reach to get a more solid argument.

Reach has a 27 hour day, and a diameter of 9490 miles. Which puts the circumference of Reach at ~29,834 miles.

So ~29,834/27 = ~1,104

Reach rotates at the equator at ~1,104 miles per hour.

So should The Pillar of Autumn be launching in the direction of Reach's rotation (from West to East, which it is) and is relatively close to the equator (which several cutscenes suggest)then The Pillar of Autumn would need ~1,104 mph less thrust to help it escape atmosphere.

  • 01.12.2012 7:31 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Plasma Prestige
Let's use the mass of the Earth for the mass of Reach, and then appropriately analyze the results in the end.

It is possible to actually find the mass of Reach. We are given the acceleration due to gravity at its surface as being 1.08G. So that is about 10.59m/s^2.

g = (G.M)/r^2

So M = 3.70x10^25 kg.

It is an order of magnitude more than the Earth's.

  • 01.13.2012 12:09 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Plasma Prestige
Let's use the mass of the Earth for the mass of Reach, and then appropriately analyze the results in the end.

It is possible to actually find the mass of Reach. We are given the acceleration due to gravity at its surface as being 1.08G. So that is about 10.59m/s^2.

g = (G.M)/r^2

So M = 3.70x10^25 kg.

It is an order of magnitude more than the Earth's.

I wasn't aware.

Nonetheless, even with Earth's lesser mass, the PoA's thrusters would not be able to escape; there is something else assisting.

  • 01.13.2012 12:21 PM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: The Dutchman

Posted by: Elder Bias

Posted by: The Dutchman
You can explain it away all you want, frigates in atmosphere is a purely cinematic addition and canonically wrong.


Source?

Logic?

Bungie and 343i said visual are canon. So cutscene are canon too. (Well since games are highest level of the canon)


Well they WOULD say that. It means they can make cutscenes as hollywood as they like, then simply claim "it's canon, no more questions!". If a covenant ship cannot risk being caught in a gravity well during space combat (first strike methinks)then why can the likes of grafton and IAC just dip in and out? Not to mention the near stationary fleet during the ark portal cutscene in halo 3.

No, i honestly haven't read a definite answer from a bungie writer, so it's all assumptions from us, but the way i see it, Bungie are willing to put Cinematography before science. Which i appreciate, because realism is boring.

Gas giant is a much bigger gravity well than a rock planet...

  • 01.13.2012 1:03 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Honorable Heroic Member

http://www.bungie.net/fanclub/halohaven/Group/GroupHome.aspx

Join Halo Haven! (Group Leader: A 3 Legged Goat)

(To discuss Halo 4.)

How do frigates float?

Do we know the amount of thrust created by the boosters?

[Edited on 01.13.2012 3:03 PM PST]

  • 01.13.2012 3:02 PM PDT