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Subject: Arbiter, Half-Jaw, and the Covenant Separatists + Earth's situa...
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If you ask me, the Covenant's numbers were sliced in like half due to the whole mix up with the Brutes and Elites. If Earth was "conquered", who the hell did it? A reunited Covenant, or just the Loyalists? and did the Separatists get annihilated along with earth's defenses?

So here this: Arbiter and Half-Jaw likely wouldn't be the central leaders of the Covenant Separatists, but they would play major roles like the Chief for the earth. Where else besides Truth's capital ship do they strike now that they know what the Prophets were up to? (Just a side thought, but it seems to me like there may be another figure behind Truth not introduced yet [*gasps* maybe Gravemind?]) Where the hell do Johnson and Keyes fit into this? with the Arbiter? They still have to escape Delta Halo, which I think Gravemind has thoroughly infested with Flood. Hmm...

It would seem to me that half of their force would have dissented because of the knowledge of the suicidal Great Journey. On one hand, you have the Loyalists (Prophets, Brutes, Drones, and Jackels) and the other you have the Separatists (Elites, Hunters, and Grunts) and earth's forces (ODSTs, Marines, and well, Chief). Seems to me like Separatists and earth's forces have the loyalists outnumbered. So how does this explain the earth being taken out just a third of the way into Halo 3? I hope we wouldn't be such noobs to be beaten so easily.

  • 05.13.2006 11:51 PM PDT
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Well, I doubt the that all the Elites and Grunts would have suceded from the Covenant empire. If some Elites were religiously loyal enough to the Prophets, they would stay, and there are probably a large amount of them that are. Plus, the Grunts dont have very much courage, so just threatening them with death if they left would most likely cause some of them to stay.

And remember, humanities military might isn't exactly all that great right now, what with losing a whole fleet at Reach and Sigma Octanus.And the Seperatists probably wouldn't hold a vast amount of the Covenant navy, due to loyalties.

[Edited on 5/13/2006]

  • 05.13.2006 11:54 PM PDT

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Posted by: Spike12
Well, I doubt the that all the Elites and Grunts would have suceded from the Covenant empire. If some Elites were religiously loyal enough to the Prophets, they would stay, and there are probably a large amount of them that are. Plus, the Grunts dont have very much courage, so just threatening them with death if they left would most likely cause some of them to stay.

Who says grunts don't have courage? Remember during Halo 2 when Arbiter is given his armor the prophets mention the grunt rebellion.

[Edited on 5/13/2006]

  • 05.13.2006 11:56 PM PDT
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Yin_Yang41: [Forum Lockers] are very bad men. They bust into my place and lock it. Thats like tossing a puppy in a woodchipper...its just plain mean(and messy lol)

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Knowing discussing grunts is off-topic, here it goes anyway. If you read the books you would know that there are brave grunts. Take Yayap for example.

  • 05.13.2006 11:57 PM PDT
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Posted by: Spike12
And remember, humanities military might isn't exactly all that great right now, what with losing a whole fleet at Reach and Sigma Octanus.And the Seperatists probably wouldn't hold a vast amount of the Covenant navy, due to loyalties.

That's a good observation about humanity's military. But the fact remains a loosely united Separatists-Earth coalition versus Loyalists places a Loyalists victory too early for a third of the way through the game, unless Halo 3 is at least twice the number hours worth of gameplay in Halo 2.

  • 05.14.2006 12:02 AM PDT
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yayap was an idiot, he killed two hunters... or was that another grunt...? anyway, the grunts will always stay loyal to the elites because they see them as their 'big brothers'.

  • 05.14.2006 12:02 AM PDT
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Who says grunts don't have courage? Remember during Halo 2 when Arbiter is given his armor the prophets mention the grunt rebellion.

Yeah, but I bet having the rebellion broken didn't do any favors for their moral. I'm not saying that all of them are cowards, though.

  • 05.14.2006 12:03 AM PDT
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yayap killed (i think) an elite who was obsessed with killing MC.

  • 05.14.2006 12:04 AM PDT
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That's a good observation about humanity's military. But the fact remains a loosely united Separatists-Earth coalition versus Loyalists places a Loyalists victory too early for a third of the way through the game, unless Halo 3 is at least twice the number hours worth of gameplay in Halo 2.

Remember though, the Loyalists would still have a navy far more vast than the Earth/Seperatists would have. They will put up one heckuva fight though, give the Covenant more than a little grief.

  • 05.14.2006 12:05 AM PDT

No matter what you do in life, you will disappoint someone.
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Posted by: Spike12
Who says grunts don't have courage? Remember during Halo 2 when Arbiter is given his armor the prophets mention the grunt rebellion.
Yeah, but I bet having the rebellion broken didn't do any favors for their moral. I'm not saying that all of them are cowards, though.

Yeah, I just wanted to mention the grunt rebellion because I love thinking about it. It just sounds so damn cool. I can see it in my head, and I'm laughing so hard that it hurts.

  • 05.14.2006 12:06 AM PDT
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I'd love to see a book that chronicles the Grunt and Hunter rebellions.

  • 05.14.2006 12:07 AM PDT
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Posted by: Spike12
Remember though, the Loyalists would still have a navy far more vast than the Earth/Seperatists would have. They will put up one heckuva fight though, give the Covenant more than a little grief.

Maybe I'm being bias because I'm human :). I've got one thing to think about though, what about Gravemind and the Flood? They can operate vehicles (Amber Clad). Who would they attack first? Wait, dumb question, they'd just attack...anybody. That would cost both sides extensively not to mention...wait, maybe that's how the Loyalists win so quickly and easily. I believe most of them (Separatists) are stuck on High Charity and Delta Halo, so the Flood would have access to them as targets first! The Separatists force would get the beatdown before they even reach Earth space, which explains why humanity would have gotten mauled.

[Edited on 5/14/2006]

  • 05.14.2006 12:15 AM PDT
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Posted by: Spike12
I'd love to see a book that chronicles the Grunt and Hunter rebellions.
Hunters did not rebel, they were tamed. I think before they were in the Covenant, there was probably a few huge super masses (not official). They probably weren't managable until the super massed colonies were broken down into what we've seen in Halo. It just might not be that interesting, aside from a couple good fights, not much story material. Hold on, is this sound?

[Edited on 5/14/2006]

  • 05.14.2006 12:19 AM PDT
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Maybe I'm being bias because I'm human :). I've got one thing to think about though, what about Gravemind and the Flood? They can operate vehicles (Amber Clad). Who would they attack first? Wait, dumb question, they'd just attack...anybody. That would cost both sides extensively not to mention...wait, maybe that's how the Loyalists win so quickly and easily. I believe most of them (Separatists) are stuck on High Charity and Delta Halo, so the Flood would have access to them as targets first! The Separatists force would get the beatdown before they even reach Earth space, which explains why humanity would have gotten mauled. Hold on, is this sound?

Hmm, this could be. The Flood are a vast enemy. I don't think most of the Seperatists are on High Charity though, since it has been completely(from what we've seen so far) overrun by the Flood. And the Covenant armada there left right after Chief killed Regret, so the Seperatist force is probably pretty strung out. A few ships here and there would be my guess.

  • 05.14.2006 12:21 AM PDT
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Haven't kept up with Halo lore, but what if the division into Separetists/loyalists was only an isolated case?

I mean, AFAIK it only happened with the fleet of High Charity. What if the rest of the Covenant Empire just thinks they are a bigger group of rebels? I imagine they are pretty small compared to the whole Covenant military, meaning that Earth would still get trounced either way.

OR, those ships at the Forerunner structure were indeed Separetist (sp?) ships, which is why they didn't attack this Chief. They were only an excavation force, so maybe they were collaborating with humanity on a method to shut down all the Halos for good.

  • 05.14.2006 12:24 AM PDT
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Haven't kept up with Halo lore, but what if the division into Separetists/loyalists was only an isolated case?

I mean, AFAIK it only happened with the fleet of High Charity. What if the rest of the Covenant Empire just thinks they are a bigger group of rebels? I imagine they are pretty small compared to the whole Covenant military, meaning that Earth would still get trounced either way.


I was thinking about that too, until I realized that one of the Prophets tells the Arbiters that the Elites have threatened to leave the Covenant. There must be some sort of high council back on the Covenant homeworld, where the Elites could have threatened. But then again, the replacing of the guard might have just happened at High Charity, so it could have just been an isolated incident like you say.

  • 05.14.2006 12:27 AM PDT
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Posted by: Major Bowman
OR, those ships at the Forerunner structure were indeed Separetist (sp?) ships, which is why they didn't attack this Chief. They were only an excavation force, so maybe they were collaborating with humanity on a method to shut down all the Halos for good.
Maybe they were Separatist ships, but my question, if so, why is Chief on foot? The Separatist would not destroy the Halos, I don't think anyone would as they would see them as a 'last resort' stategy. Last resort as in remote activate the Halos after they get out of their range (they know the projected range from the moniter(s)) and find another habitable planet.

And why is a Separatist excavation fleet going to excavate another forerunner artifact unless they really, really want to kill the flood?...Hold on I think I answered my question....

Oh and isolated incident? Word tends to spread rather quickly when you're in the future. *think of a horse-back postman to email sort of transition*

[Edited on 5/14/2006]

  • 05.14.2006 12:31 AM PDT
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Perhaps the fleet attacking earth had no news of a rebellion since they were far away from the source of the fight? Remember the last door guarding the gravity lift to the final area in Halo 2? Their were Grunts fighting alongside Brutes.

Even if all the elites, hunters, and grunts split from the Covenant, why would they fight alongside the humans? If california split from the USA would they fight alongside the Iraqis?

  • 05.14.2006 12:46 AM PDT
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Oh and isolated incident? Word tends to spread rather quickly when you're in the future. *think of a horse-back postman to email sort of transition

This is probably the case, asnews of Regrets death wouldve spread quickly throughout the empire. But there is a small chance they wouldnt change the guards on the Covenant homeworld orelsewhere.



[Edited on 5/14/2006]

  • 05.14.2006 12:47 AM PDT
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Posted by: Dave Sempai
Perhaps the fleet attacking earth had no news of a rebellion since they were far away from the source of the fight? Remember the last door guarding the gravity lift to the final area in Halo 2? Their were Grunts fighting alongside Brutes.

Even if all the elites, hunters, and grunts split from the Covenant, why would they fight alongside the humans? If california split from the USA would they fight alongside the Iraqis?
Bad analogy dude, the Separatists have their lives to loose if they do not stop the Loyalists and it just so happens that the humanity is already fighting the Loyalists. Besides, Arbiter, Keyes, and Johnson have worked together against the Loyalists already, so why not join up?

As for grunts and brutes, think: GRUNT: chances of survival against Chief and Flood w/o Brutes = 0% whereas GRUNT: chances of survivial against Chief and Flood w/Brutes = .001%...I wouldn't like them odds, but I would go with the piece of a chance I had if I were the Grunt.

  • 05.14.2006 12:53 AM PDT
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About the fleet. If you noticed that the fleet was tightly packed around high charaity fighting ships would be attacking at point blank range and dieing ships would take out all those near by. In the end as this kind of sceen replayed itself over and over again in other star systems both spearatist and loyalist (if they still exist) would be throughly decimated.

  • 05.14.2006 12:55 AM PDT
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About the fleet. If you noticed that the fleet was tightly packed around high charaity fighting ships would be attacking at point blank range and dieing ships would take out all those near by. In the end as this kind of sceen replayed itself over and over again in other star systems both spearatist and loyalist (if they still exist) would be throughly decimated.


I'm not sure the Seperatist Elite commanders would just say "Have at em!" in such close proximity. Having been experienced veterans, they would probably either feign that they are still loyal, relocate their fleet, perhaps saying they are going on a scouting or exploration mission on the Halo, and then attack, using the element of suprise. Or they would just cut and run if their numbers were to small to win. Sure, it would hurt their honor, but it would do nothing for their rebellion if they all died.

  • 05.14.2006 1:08 AM PDT
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Posted by: Ultimas Blade

Besides, Arbiter, Keyes, and Johnson have worked together against the Loyalists already, so why not join up?


they fought together to stop Halo from firing. they knew the truth and that they would die if they did not end the sequence.
now you can say that they will go to earth to stop the earth halo from firing, but the fact is that we don't have enough information from the trailer to know what they would do.

  • 05.14.2006 1:16 AM PDT
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Posted by: Spike12
I'm not sure the Seperatist Elite commanders would just say "Have at em!" in such close proximity. Having been experienced veterans, they would probably either feign that they are still loyal, relocate their fleet, perhaps saying they are going on a scouting or exploration mission on the Halo, and then attack, using the element of suprise. Or they would just cut and run if their numbers were to small to win. Sure, it would hurt their honor, but it would do nothing for their rebellion if they all died.
Well said, the Elites are great warriors, but lets not forget they are tacticians as well, unlike the mindless Brutes. The Elites would have likely withdrawn in light of their numbers. Lets face it, in a ground battle the Elites are viable winners, but when placed in spaceships the playing field levels out and sheer numbers win the battle.

they fought together to stop Halo from firing. they knew the truth and that they would die if they did not end the sequence.
now you can say that they will go to earth to stop the earth halo from firing, but the fact is that we don't have enough information from the trailer to know what they would do.

Hmm.. The ark activates the other Halos does it not? If I stop one but the other seven or how many ever could potentially be activated, I would be hot on my feet trying to shut them down as well, and for good at that. Besides, don't Elites seem like the type of warriors to see the war through?

[Edited on 5/14/2006]

  • 05.14.2006 1:16 AM PDT
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Remember though, Arbiter, Miranda, Half-Jaw are still on Delta Halo. Although I am sure they will return to Earth since Half-Jaw took back a Cruiser from Brute Control, conviently close to the Control Room...They'll probably get back a few hours after Cheif and them, if they make it out of the fight around High Charity.

  • 05.14.2006 1:23 AM PDT

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