Halo: Reach Forum
This topic has moved here: Subject: The Title Update made Reach worse
  • Subject: The Title Update made Reach worse
Subject: The Title Update made Reach worse

Join Halo Haven for all things related to Halo 4


Tell her that If you jingle my bells, Ill promise you a white Christmas - Call Me Venom
The world can't end next month. My yogurt expires in 2013 - Princess Cadence
If Apple invented a car, would it have windows? - Xxembers

Posted on Waypoint.

TU settings do not work for Reach. Everything is different from Halo 3 and trying to make it play like Halo 3 was a mistake. Vehicle health is different. Shield flare is different. Regenerating health is different. Weapon kill times are different. Melee lunge is different. Grenades are totally different. And none of these were addressed with the TU changes, thereby making the TU a cheap imitation of Halo 3, not a fix. Bleedthrough cannot simply be pasted onto Reach mechanics without the shield and health systems being addressed

I am not saying default vanilla Reach was perfect, functioning as intended, or without need of fixing. I am not saying Reach did not need a title update. However, I do not and will not support the current iteration of the Reach TU because it has caused many more problems and only fixed a few.

Bloom is manageable yes, but it has also offset the rest of the sandbox. The game was not designed for 85% bloom, and this change only really affects the DMR, NR, and Pistol (the latter of which has since been reverted back anyway). Headshot bleedthrough puts great emphasis on aiming for the head, but it's very inconsistent and the visual indicators were not built for it, nor were they addressed with the TU settings. The same can be said of melee bleedthrough, which quite amusingly just brings back the exact same issues it had in Halo 3. The worst part is melee lunge still was not addressed, thus 343i repeated the same mistake Bungie made from H3 to Reach.

Let's not forget to mention how the health system was ignored. If 343 wanted to change the shield mechanics they should have also changed the health system as well. Now with bleedthrough melees and grenades are even stronger than they were before. Health should have regenerated fully like it did in Halo 3. The attempt at meshing Halo 3 mechanics with Reach mechanics does not work out correctly.

Again, vanilla Reach was not short of its own problems. It was still playable, but overall Halo's core mechanics were not meant to function the way they were made to in Reach. The game was made to be too forgiving and a slew of contradictions made it 'unfun' to play. The only playlist where default Reach worked as intended was Invasion, which was a gametype designed from the ground-up for Reach mechanics. This is why 343i has the sense not to TU Invasion.

I'm curious to see who still wants to pull the 'adapt' card. It has nothing to do with 'getting used to it'. If I don't like default Reach, 1000 games is not going to make me like it or hate it more than 100 or even 10 games will. Similarly, 1000 games of TU is not going to simply make the issues that it has introduced disappear.


Seriously, the solution was so simple it boggles me why it was missed twice:

-Remove Bloom
-Bring Back Regenerating Health
-Bring back Bleedthrough
-Bring Back Halo 3 Shield Flare
-Buff Movement Speed and Jump Height
-Increase Grenade Fuse Time
-Make all weapons capable of killing without melees as extensions
-Add a ranking system that works


What do we have? A freaking Halo game.



[Edited on 02.06.2012 1:04 PM PST]

  • 02.05.2012 10:49 PM PDT
Subject: The Title Update Ruined Halo Reach

Join Halo Haven for all things related to Halo 4


Tell her that If you jingle my bells, Ill promise you a white Christmas - Call Me Venom
The world can't end next month. My yogurt expires in 2013 - Princess Cadence
If Apple invented a car, would it have windows? - Xxembers

TL;DR

The TU creates more problems than it fixes. Bleedthrough screws up the sandbox. The health system was not addressed, thereby making melees and grenades more powerful than they were before. The visual indicators are also offset and are no longer flush with how the mechanics function creating an inconsistency

85% bloom offsets the rest of the sandbox by making the DMR and NR (and formerly Pistol; it was reverted back) way more powerful than any other weapon. And we are once again back to a game where 90% of the sandbox are beatdown enhancers, except melee lunge still has not been addressed and now health no longer regenerates, making it worse than before.

Vanilla Reach was not functioning as intended outside of the Invasion playlist; however, merging Halo 3 mechanics with Reach mechanics without fully converting the two created a half-baked hybrid that created more inconsistencies and contradictions than were originally present

[Edited on 02.05.2012 11:03 PM PST]

  • 02.05.2012 10:55 PM PDT

I'm just going to keep my comments to myself about this.

EDIT: Actually, I'll say that the melee is bleedthrough is annoying considering there is a bug with it and non-rebounding health doesn't work with the strength of melee.

[Edited on 02.05.2012 11:01 PM PST]

  • 02.05.2012 10:56 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Honorable Member

Lucy

The TU didn't ruin anything, there was nothing to ruin to begin with

  • 02.05.2012 10:57 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Bleedthrough sucks.


But bloom sucks even more.


TU is less inconsistent and more fun than vanilla Reach.

I didn't mind the 3 melee kill (75% melee damage?) and I think it would work better.

/Opinion

  • 02.05.2012 10:59 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: AcidThe Wraith
Bleedthrough sucks.


But bloom sucks even more.


TU is less inconsistent and more fun than vanilla Reach.

I didn't mind the 3 melee kill (75% melee damage?) and I think it would work better.

/Opinion

  • 02.05.2012 11:01 PM PDT

Join Halo Haven for all things related to Halo 4


Tell her that If you jingle my bells, Ill promise you a white Christmas - Call Me Venom
The world can't end next month. My yogurt expires in 2013 - Princess Cadence
If Apple invented a car, would it have windows? - Xxembers

Seriously, the solution was so simple it boggles me why it was missed twice:

-Remove Bloom
-Bring Back Regenerating Health
-Bring back Bleedthrough
-Bring Back Halo 3 Shield Flare
-Buff Movement Speed and Jump Height
-Increase Grenade Fuse Time
-Make all weapons capable of killing without melees as extensions
-Add a ranking system that works


What do we have? A freaking Halo game. Combine the positive aspects of Halo 1, Halo 2, and Halo 3. Leave out what doesn't work.

Reach did nothing to move the series forward at the core of its gameplay.

[Edited on 02.05.2012 11:10 PM PST]

  • 02.05.2012 11:05 PM PDT
  • gamertag: wamego
  • user homepage:

would you have prefered if they TU'd every weapon and aspect of the game individually

  • 02.05.2012 11:05 PM PDT

Join Halo Haven for all things related to Halo 4


Tell her that If you jingle my bells, Ill promise you a white Christmas - Call Me Venom
The world can't end next month. My yogurt expires in 2013 - Princess Cadence
If Apple invented a car, would it have windows? - Xxembers


Posted by: Wamego
would you have prefered if they TU'd every weapon and aspect of the game individually


I would have preferred if they had, as methew said, split the game in half rather than infect the entire thing with the TU settings. But that's not realistic, and neither is title updating every part of the game individually.

[Edited on 02.05.2012 11:07 PM PST]

  • 02.05.2012 11:06 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Honorable Member
  • gamertag: AB1DE
  • user homepage:

The headshot blledthrough is why I don't play TU. How is TU bloom better? In what ways? Whenever i play TU all I see is everyone spamming and doing fine, and all I ever need to do is spam (haven't needed to pace once yet).

  • 02.05.2012 11:07 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: A 3 Legged Goat
Seriously, the solution was so simple it boggles me why it was missed twice:

-Remove Bloom
-Bring Back Regenerating Health
-Bring back Bleedthrough
-Bring Back Halo 3 Shield Flare
-Buff Movement Speed and Jump Height
-Increase Grenade Fuse Time
-Make all weapons capable of killing without melees as extensions
-Add a ranking system that works


What do we have? A freaking Halo game.



343, Y U NO HIRE GOAT?!

Although I think that some of those (Ranking system/Shield flare) might be impossible to implement.

  • 02.05.2012 11:11 PM PDT

Join Halo Haven for all things related to Halo 4


Tell her that If you jingle my bells, Ill promise you a white Christmas - Call Me Venom
The world can't end next month. My yogurt expires in 2013 - Princess Cadence
If Apple invented a car, would it have windows? - Xxembers


Posted by: AcidThe Wraith
Although I think that some of those (Ranking system/Shield flare) might be impossible to implement.


I'm not saying my ideal Halo would have been possible given what 343 had to work with. I'm just saying if they wanted to TU the game they shouldn't have done so in a way that created more issues than it fixed. Mainly, the addition of bleedthrough.

[Edited on 02.05.2012 11:14 PM PST]

  • 02.05.2012 11:14 PM PDT

THATS MY COOL MAN I CAN'T TAKE IT OFF!

L.O.L.O.L.O.L

  • 02.05.2012 11:17 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: A 3 Legged Goat

Posted by: AcidThe Wraith
Although I think that some of those (Ranking system/Shield flare) might be impossible to implement.


I'm not saying my ideal Halo would have been possible given what 343 had to work with. I'm just saying if they wanted to TU the game they shouldn't have done so in a way that created more issues than it fixed. Mainly, the addition of bleedthrough.


What about 3 melee kills?

  • 02.05.2012 11:18 PM PDT

Welcome to the internet. Joy dies here.

You've got a solid argument there. The only thing I would add to it is jetpack could have used a nerf and didn't get it. No idea what to do to make it function better, but the jetpack needs some tweaking.

  • 02.05.2012 11:31 PM PDT

Join Halo Haven for all things related to Halo 4


Tell her that If you jingle my bells, Ill promise you a white Christmas - Call Me Venom
The world can't end next month. My yogurt expires in 2013 - Princess Cadence
If Apple invented a car, would it have windows? - Xxembers


Posted by: Engage Progress
Bungie did not implement bloom correctly. They didn't make it account for all factors and actually promoted spam! Period. It needed to be removed. Stick negation was dumb, sword block was dumb and the melee strength needed to be toned down. The game Bungie gave us was simply unfinished with a lot of dumb unfinished features.

Mute ban? Really?


I don't disagree with anything in your post. The changes to Armor Lock, Camo, Sword Block, etc. were good changes IMO. However, Bleedthrough was the log that toppled the tower, to put it mildly.

  • 02.05.2012 11:32 PM PDT

Join Halo Haven for all things related to Halo 4


Tell her that If you jingle my bells, Ill promise you a white Christmas - Call Me Venom
The world can't end next month. My yogurt expires in 2013 - Princess Cadence
If Apple invented a car, would it have windows? - Xxembers


Posted by: WhackyGordon
You've got a solid argument there. The only thing I would add to it is jetpack could have used a nerf and didn't get it. No idea what to do to make it function better, but the jetpack needs some tweaking.


Somebody suggested that your bloom is either increased while flying or you cannot fire while operating the jetpack.

I personally didn't like either suggestion but I do recognize that jetpack needed some sort of fix.

  • 02.05.2012 11:32 PM PDT
  • gamertag: ankerd
  • user homepage:

Bringing in Fikst. Bringing back lmao.
Inheritor # 475 world,

#6 In the Country.

Halocharts.com

Not reading all that lol.

  • 02.05.2012 11:34 PM PDT

Posted by: A 3 Legged Goat
Reach did nothing to move the series forward at the core of its gameplay.
That was a problem with default Reach. TU was only intended as a quick band aid until we get Halo 4 later this year. I would much rather 343i make a quick fix and focus their time and resources on Halo 4 rather then wasting time on what is pretty much a dead game.

I'll just quickly go over your points individually.

-Remove BloomAgree for the most part, although I do believe some playlists would play better with 85%. As it is right now though anything other the MLG shouldn't really be taken super competitively so the far reduced randomness from default Reach's 100% bloom is tolerable until we get H4.
-Bring Back Regenerating HealthAgreed, but the health packs become redundant (not much of a loss, but probably enough justification to dismiss this change).
-Bring Back Halo 3 Shield FlareIf its not in the game its unlikely a TU will add it, and as I said earlier adding it would be a waste of time on 343i's part.
-Buff Movement Speed and Jump Height
-Increase Grenade Fuse Time
Agreed. Although changing the movement speed may make a few maps have issues once again.
-Make all weapons capable of killing without melees as extensionsWhy? Some weapons such as the plasma rifle aren't really meant to kill. Making them capable of killing would make other weapons such as the AR redundant.
-Add a ranking system that worksTo much effort to jusify.

  • 02.05.2012 11:35 PM PDT

Welcome to the internet. Joy dies here.

Posted by: A 3 Legged Goat
Somebody suggested that your bloom is either increased while flying or you cannot fire while operating the jetpack.

I personally didn't like either suggestion but I do recognize that jetpack needed some sort of fix.

Bloom increase would be okay, but it doesn't feel quite right. Maybe if your sensitivity was capped while airborne that would work. Just keep you from aiming around too fast. It would make sense, in that you would have to use your jetpack to turn yourself instead of your legs..

  • 02.05.2012 11:37 PM PDT

Join Halo Haven for all things related to Halo 4


Tell her that If you jingle my bells, Ill promise you a white Christmas - Call Me Venom
The world can't end next month. My yogurt expires in 2013 - Princess Cadence
If Apple invented a car, would it have windows? - Xxembers


Posted by: Tomberry
Posted by: A 3 Legged Goat
Make all weapons capable of killing without melees as extensions
Why? Some weapons such as the plasma rifle aren't really meant to kill. Making them capable of killing would make other weapons such as the AR redundant.


The Plasma Rifle had a unique feature in CE that made it different from the AR--Plasma Stun. As you fired upon your opponent, they would be slowed down if they were moving towards you. This changed the dynamic of the 'ar rush' because there was a weapon that countered it completely.

I recognize that having a PR and an AR that both kill in the same amount of time would be redundant. However, it's things like hitscan vs projectiles, ammunition vs battery, and stun vs no stun that set these weapons apart.

I don't understand why this dynamic was lost throughout the series.

  • 02.05.2012 11:39 PM PDT