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  • Subject: What do you think of the moderators on the forums?
Subject: What do you think of the moderators on the forums?
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Posted by: Great_Pretender
Even for a forum this size, sometimes I think 16 is pushing it (not that they all moderate often. In reality I only see about 7 of us post regularly).

-TGP-


But what about after Halo 3 ships, and the next boom occurs. 7 consistent moderators might become a little too thin.

  • 05.22.2006 7:12 AM PDT
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i think the mods are more than just fine...they let you stay in these forums, right? i think this poll should be closed just for the sake of it's creator. this is just like going to a sony website saying sony you suck, but i still like your products.

  • 05.22.2006 8:47 AM PDT
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I have seen some poor moderating one these forums before, something that usually stands out quite obviously to me, being a moderator myself. A good moderator will realise when applying the rules strictly is or isn't needed, and also ensure that the reasons for his/her actions are clear. And at the site where I work at, I was even one of those that ensured that moderating was of a good quality, so again, I'm well aware of what bad moderating is.

For instance, I've seen threads closed for no clear reason (even when reading the stickies), and I seem to remember getting blacklisted by Recon for commenting on how stupid stereotyping is, in one of the stupid "Americans vs Brits" topics for "partaking in a political discussion", even though what I said was civil, and something Recon acknowledged in his PM to me about it.

And that's a perfect example of rules being applied badly. Bans should only be applied for severe incidents - a civil and sensible comment, even if it technically breaks the rules doesn't deserve a ban. A warning that such topics aren't allowed, fine.

Let's also remember that bans are meant to be a deterrant. To encourage better behaviour on the forums. When that behaviour is civil and sensible, and not breaking a major rule, then bans should not be applied.

[Edited on 5/22/2006]

  • 05.22.2006 1:21 PM PDT

Ach! Was ist los?

There are too many idiots, and too much idiocy, here for the moderators to be able to handle things in such depth.

  • 05.22.2006 1:31 PM PDT

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Posted by: One One Seven
I have seen some poor moderating one these forums before, something that usually stands out quite obviously to me, being a moderator myself. A good moderator will realise when applying the rules strictly is or isn't needed, and also ensure that the reasons for his/her actions are clear. And at the site where I work at, I was even one of those that ensured that moderating was of a good quality, so again, I'm well aware of what bad moderating is.

For instance, I've seen threads closed for no clear reason (even when reading the stickies), and I seem to remember getting blacklisted by Recon for commenting on how stupid stereotyping is, in one of the stupid "Americans vs Brits" topics for "partaking in a political discussion", even though what I said was civil, and something Recon acknowledged in his PM to me about it.

And that's a perfect example of rules being applied badly. Bans should only be applied for severe incidents - a civil and sensible comment, even if it technically breaks the rules doesn't deserve a ban. A warning that such topics aren't allowed, fine.

Let's also remember that bans are meant to be a deterrant. To encourage better behaviour on the forums. When that behaviour is civil and sensible, and not breaking a major rule, then bans should not be applied.



If you get banned, you deserve it, no matter how much you think you don't.

Now, about how you are a "Good moderator". how would you possibly know this? Do people come up to you and say "you a good moderator". Just your opinion of you, which is Biased.

All rules must be kept. No matter what. When rules are thrown away you get what Im now calling 'The H3 period" where it was impossible to moderate because of the amount of threads going in every minute.

  • 05.22.2006 1:43 PM PDT
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If you get banned, you deserve it, no matter how much you think you don't.

Wrong. Moderators are fallible. Bans are one of the most severe punishments in a moderator's arsenal, and as such, are reserved for severe incidents.

Now, about how you are a "Good moderator". how would you possibly know this? Do people come up to you and say "you a good moderator". Just your opinion of you, which is Biased.

A good moderator? Easy, someone that is sensible in handing out punishments (and hands out the correct one), who's actions are understandable, and who does a good job of enforcing the rules of a forum, in a fair and consistant manner.

I know what it means to be a good moderator however, and it's not just me lableling myself as a good mod (which as you point out, would be biased). I've gotten a lot of feedback off other forumers, and the very fact that I was put in a position to make sure moderating was carried out well surely says something about what others thought?

All rules must be kept. No matter what.

Yes, but the point was that the severity of a punishment should be entirely circumstantial, and not fixed. If you apply unreasonably harsh punishments for minor rule breaking (and the rules can be broken to a variable degree, it's not a black or white issue), you're not a good moderator, and you're not percieved as one either.


When rules are thrown away you get what Im now calling 'The H3 period" where it was impossible to moderate because of the amount of threads going in every minute.

Yes, it is hard to moderate when there's an insane amount of posts, I'll admit, and tricky cases can't be looked at in much detail. The incident I refer to however, was not a tricky case, and it was about a year ago, before the insane current level of activity.


  • 05.22.2006 1:53 PM PDT

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a 7-day ban is not a very bad punishment. Many people get them everyday, o be expected from so many people on these forums.

However, moderators being humans do make mistakes, but not often and they are usually rectified.

If they didn't ban someoen for braking a minor rule, then what would happen? People would break them so often that you couldn't enter a thread.

Thats why moderators do what they do.

  • 05.22.2006 2:10 PM PDT
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a 7-day ban is not a very bad punishment. Many people get them everyday, o be expected from so many people on these forums.

A ban is a rather serious punishment. Of course with a large number of users there'll be a large number of bans. A polite warning often works wonders, and prevents people from being pissed off for being banned for minor offenses without reason.

However, moderators being humans do make mistakes, but not often and they are usually rectified.

Not really. Bungie/The moderators won't look into it if it's a 7 day ban since it's not worth their time doing so. Bungie themselves admit that they'll take a moderator's view over anyone elses everytime. Understandable yes, but it doesn't mean that the moderator's decision in question is right, or a good one.

If they didn't ban someoen for braking a minor rule, then what would happen? People would break them so often that you couldn't enter a thread.

In some ways, I can understand the reason why mods here do this; it's far easier to hit blacklist and be done, than write a PM. So it's not really that the ban is deserved, but to save the moderator time.

And bans don't tend to have much effect on stopping the rest of the forum population from breaking rules. There are many reasons why, not least being that banned users posts are hidden and censored. There's no way of seeing what post(s) the ban was for, so there's no way to see what is or isn't allowed. In a few obscure cases, this is apparent by the offending post being quoted by a moderator, before they take action.

Warnings, as I say, can do a fine job of preventing someone from reoffending, if they're polite. Probably as effective as a ban, as the ban isn't really visible to others.

Regardless, this still doesn't change the fact that a ban may not be deserved.


[Edited on 5/22/2006]

  • 05.22.2006 2:21 PM PDT

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I agree with you on most of that but..

Not really. Bungie/The moderators won't look into it if it's a 7 day ban since it's not worth their time doing so. Bungie themselves admit that they'll take a moderator's view over anyone elses everytime. Understandable yes, but it doesn't mean that the moderator's decision in question is right, or a good one.

If it's a mistake then it will be rectified. Most won't be looked into because they are not mistakes.

  • 05.22.2006 2:27 PM PDT

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Bear in mind One One Seven, that our options for minor infractions are 2, lock or ban. With the mod to user ratio, we haven't got the time to mollycoddle every person who breaks a rule. There's a reason that there's a Code of Conduct and Terms of Use for the forum. There's a reason that most of the forums have Guideline stickies.

If someone gets banned because they didn't follow the rules, who's fault is that?

We haven't got time to tailor make every punishment, and to be frank, it's pretty damn selfish to expect it of us.

Read the rules, I can't make it any more plain than that.

  • 05.22.2006 2:37 PM PDT

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Posted by: GameJunkieJim

Read the rules, I can't make it any more plain than that.


You could say it twice.

  • 05.22.2006 2:45 PM PDT
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they r doing a good job but in forums u need some times to goof around make jokes watch people fight over a stupid thing but moderators r not allowing that

  • 05.22.2006 2:48 PM PDT
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Bear in mind One One Seven, that our options for minor infractions are 2, lock or ban.

Ninja seems to realise that there's the third ... the warning via PM. But we'll go with these 2.

With the mod to user ratio, we haven't got the time to mollycoddle every person who breaks a rule. There's a reason that there's a Code of Conduct and Terms of Use for the forum. There's a reason that most of the forums have Guideline stickies.

If someone gets banned because they didn't follow the rules, who's fault is that?


Pretty much every single ToU ever written is designed to cover a company legally. Very little thought goes into those that have to read the endless legal crap at the end. And many take about an hour to read, based on the average speed at which people read and process information at.

We haven't got time to tailor make every punishment, and to be frank, it's pretty damn selfish to expect it of us.

I don't expect you guys to carefully analyse the precise punishment needed, and hand out 10 day or 3 days bans. All I expect is a reasonable punishment for a reasonable offense, and some common sense. In the above example, I'd expect a moderator to be able to differentiate between "Knock off the stupid stereotyping guys", and "OMG Americans/Brits/Group X are pieces of -blam!-".

You say you have 2 options. Lock or ban. What you do is easy. Lock the offending thread if the thread itself violates the rules, and then ban severe offenders. Locking the thread means that the minor minor offenders (in this case, forumers who merely posted in the thread (amusingly, that would also cover any forumer who says that it's against the rules in this case)) realise that it's not allowed, and the major ones get a ban. How hard is that? All it needs is common sense and for the mod in question to show some slight thought when it comes to clicking on blacklist.

[Edited on 5/22/2006]

  • 05.22.2006 2:54 PM PDT

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Posted by: cold5zero
they r doing a good job but in forums u need some times to goof around make jokes watch people fight over a stupid thing but moderators r not allowing that


Have you seen most of my posts with sir_brilliant in this forum?

  • 05.22.2006 2:54 PM PDT
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Posted by: One One Seven
I have seen some poor moderating one these forums before, something that usually stands out quite obviously to me, being a moderator myself. A good moderator will realise when applying the rules strictly is or isn't needed, and also ensure that the reasons for his/her actions are clear. And at the site where I work at, I was even one of those that ensured that moderating was of a good quality, so again, I'm well aware of what bad moderating is.

For instance, I've seen threads closed for no clear reason (even when reading the stickies), and I seem to remember getting blacklisted by Recon for commenting on how stupid stereotyping is, in one of the stupid "Americans vs Brits" topics for "partaking in a political discussion", even though what I said was civil, and something Recon acknowledged in his PM to me about it.

And that's a perfect example of rules being applied badly. Bans should only be applied for severe incidents - a civil and sensible comment, even if it technically breaks the rules doesn't deserve a ban. A warning that such topics aren't allowed, fine.

Let's also remember that bans are meant to be a deterrant. To encourage better behaviour on the forums. When that behaviour is civil and sensible, and not breaking a major rule, then bans should not be applied.


Although Spartakus and GJJ pretty much covered it, I wanted to add something else. The moderators are much less lenient when it comes to Bungie's zero-tolerence issues. The main two topics I can think of are politics and religion. Those subjects are never allowed on the public forums. The best way to make sure that they never come up is to provide a severe deterrence against them. Knowing that you could recieve a blacklist with no warning will keep most people from participating in those kinds of discussions.

Posted by: Great_Pretender
It happened more often when we first came in, but still. Even for a forum this size, sometimes I think 16 is pushing it (not that they all moderate often. In reality I only see about 7 of us post regularly).

-TGP-


Seven, huh? Coincidence? I think not.

  • 05.22.2006 3:11 PM PDT

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The moderators here do their work well. Without them this place would be a horrible twisted nightmare. Strict is good, especially when it comes to Bungie.net.

  • 05.22.2006 3:32 PM PDT
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One One Seven, weren't there countless warnings about political discussion when you posted? This would fall under the "feeding the trolls" umbrella. If you are told not to do something, doing it anyways, even if you are civil about it, is still wrong. In this case, you may not have been flaming people in a political discussion, but the fact still remains that you violated the rules for taking part in a political discussion. Recon has said perhaps a thousand times that the one button almost everyone ignores is the "No Reply" button. If you shouldn't be doing something, don't do it, unless you fully understand the consequences of your actions. If you don't like a certain discussion, ignore it. Contributing to it defeats the purpose of trying to stop it.

  • 05.22.2006 3:42 PM PDT
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One One Seven, weren't there countless warnings about political discussion when you posted? This would fall under the "feeding the trolls" umbrella.

It was quite a while ago, so I don't remember all the details, but I'm 99% sure that there were no warnings.

If you are told not to do something, doing it anyways, even if you are civil about it, is still wrong.

Perfectly true, though in this case I don't recall any warnings, as above.

In this case, you may not have been flaming people in a political discussion, but the fact still remains that you violated the rules for taking part in a political discussion.

Again, perfectly true (as I was later informed). However the severity of the crime does not fit the punishment, in my considered opinion. I also don't seem to remember every single person in that thread being blacklisted (even though they were all technically breaking the rules by definition).

Recon has said perhaps a thousand times that the one button almost everyone ignores is the "No Reply" button. If you shouldn't be doing something, don't do it, unless you fully understand the consequences of your actions. If you don't like a certain discussion, ignore it. Contributing to it defeats the purpose of trying to stop it.

Well actually the whole purpose of the reply was trying to stop it, even if it was a somewhat futile guesture.

Either way, I still think that it was bad moderating, but at the end of the day my opinion doesn't really matter. I can justify it, but it's not going to change how these forums are moderated, or Bungie's policy, and I think I've said enough on the matter.

  • 05.22.2006 3:56 PM PDT
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I love that "no reply" button. I use it at least once a day. ;)

Actually, I do use the cancel button. Sometimes, I'll type out a reply, then read it and decide to just hit cancel instead of posting. I try not to be afraid of wasting my work; sometimes, replies just do more harm than good.

"Feeding the Trolls". I knew I forgot to mention something.

  • 05.22.2006 3:56 PM PDT
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Posted by: One One Seven
I don't expect you guys to carefully analyse the precise punishment needed, and hand out 10 day or 3 days bans.

Note: We can't do that, without speaking personally to one of the master mods (Recon, Yoozel, Stosh, Shishka) and lowering/raising the ban that way.

Personally I give out a lot more warnings than I do bans. I haven't permabanned anyone in ages. Am I too leniant? Probably.

Usually what I do though, is I blacklist someone for a week, send them a PM asking if that's okay, and if they send back an abusive message I file them for a permaban.

Is that a good execution of the rules? Not really. But people should understand the concept of punishment.

I don't know what I just said, I'm tired and late for school.
-TGP-

  • 05.22.2006 4:42 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
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"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Our ToU may be legal in nature, but the code of conduct is not - it was written by our community, originally for the Myth metaserver we ran back in the day, and adapted for this web site. And both the code of conduct and ToU are not that long nor are that complicated. And the code of conduct even has a handy short version (which, by the way, points out that you DO always deserve the ban you got, despite moderators being fallible).

Regardless, I CAN expect you to have read and understood it. You said so when you created an account. I don't care if most people just click the box and don't really read the code of conduct, they said they did.

And, to put this topic to rest - the moderators act in accordance with guidelines I gave them. Nearly every single person who gets banned knows why they were banned. And 7 ban that can't be appealed exists to smack down the legion of idiots who think that this forum is like every other video game forum where the rules are simply a suggestion. Most of the moderators can only give out 7 day bans anyway, and not any other kind of bans.

Your theory about giving warnings is not correct, by the way. It breaks down as your userbase increases. Most people who are breaking the rules are doing it either because they are ignorant of the rules or don't care (many more of the latter exist). The aim of the moderators is to keep order - bans stop the rule breaking. A warning is a waste of time, because a ban will accomplish the same thing a warning will - an ignorant user will read the rules, and a user that doesn't care will still not care. The difference is that a ban prevents the second type of rule break from continuing to ruin other people's enjoyment of the forums.

Posted by: One One Seven
Pretty much every single ToU ever written is designed to cover a company legally. Very little thought goes into those that have to read the endless legal crap at the end. And many take about an hour to read, based on the average speed at which people read and process information at.

  • 05.22.2006 6:17 PM PDT

How many times have I told you guys I don't want no horsin' around on the airplane!

I am upset right now with VII Toast. I was banned seven days ago, and honestly do not know precisely why. For some reason he is not accepting PMs, which seems like a dumb thing for a moderator to do. Since I couldn't contact him I tried Shishka, but no luck there.

  • 05.22.2006 6:29 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
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"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Recon makes a really good point that everyone should listen to. I have several PMs and emails right at this moment from people in various states of long term bans (some permabans, a few 6 month bans, etc.) and all of them are asking that I shorten or remove their ban. The common thread between all of them is that "they're sorry" among other excuses. Without variation, I always accept their apology, and then deny their appeal to have their ban removed.

This surprises or angers pretty much every single person who tries this. Let's just say it again here - when you signed up for this site, you agreed to abided by a certain standard of behavior. This standard is generally much higher than many internet sites with the same demographic of users. This standard can be basically be boiled down to: "Bungie controls everything, you have NO rights, and play nice."

The point, however, is that if you're a jerk, and get banned for it, you have to accept the consequences of your actions. Many users who appeal seem to think that being sorry excuses them from the consequences of their actions. This may work with your parents, but I am not your mother. I'll gladly accept your apology, but that doesn't mean you get out of your punishment. Just because this is the Internet doesn't mean rule-breaking doesn't have consequences. There are, after all, real people behind each user name here.

Except for Shishka, of course. And the Soul. But they don't count. :)

Posted by: Recon Number 54
Too many members expect to be released or excused from their own responsibility or wish their actions to have no consequence or to be overlooked. As if I am their parent and will give them a warning or "second chance". I understand that most members are minors who think that is how the world works. But they made a grown-up decision and agreed to specific terms of membership. To dismiss that agreement as just "legal stuff that the company uses to cover their ass" is unwise.



Link to Page 5

[Edited on 5/22/2006 by GameJunkieJim]

  • 05.22.2006 6:30 PM PDT

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Posted by: Snowman
I am upset right now with VII Toast. I was banned seven days ago, and honestly do not know precisely why. For some reason he is not accepting PMs, which seems like a dumb thing for a moderator to do. Since I couldn't contact him I tried Shishka, but no luck there.


The other moderators generally don't know why a particular person has been banned unless the banning moderator chooses to tell us, but mostly it's not necessary. So Shishka probably had no idea what you were talking about.

And yes, sometimes a Mod may stop accepting PMs. You might too if you built up 100+ messages a day. And hardly any of them are nice. I can't answer all of my PMs either, and rumor has it that Shishka's past 2000 PMs.

Don't take a blocked PM Box or an unanswered PM as an insult. We're people. With the exception of Shishka we don't know anymore about special projects or release dates than any of you do.

With the exception of the Master Moderators and Achronos, we can't mess with your blacklist so don't ask us to shorten it or unban it. The moderators have a level of trust in each others judgement that a PM from a member isn't going to break, so it's not likely you'll ever get something overturned by "going over our heads". As Achronos will tell you, we were made moderators because we were deemed trustable. It's a small group of moderators, and if my personal experience is similar to the others, we spend full time hours here to help Achronos keep the forum running smoothly.

I know that as a moderator, there will always be resentment from some members. That can't be helped. But next time you want to say that we're overbearing, or doing a poor job, just remember that we do this out of loyalty to Bungie.net, and the welfare of the forum and the rule-abiding members comes first. With (minimum) 700,000 users, and a good 30% of that ignoring the rules count yourself lucky if you even get a PM with a terse message. We do make an assumption that since you are participating on a text-based forum, that you can read, and that you have the common sense to realize that the rules aren't there as placeholders.

If this post is rambling, forgive me, I've been juggling two children, an unruly forum, and kitchen duties since 5:30 AM. It's only 10:00 PM now, but I'm awfully tired. Bless my wife's heart for handling those kids every day.

  • 05.22.2006 6:58 PM PDT