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  • Subject: Finally finished reading Primordium (Spoilers)
Subject: Finally finished reading Primordium (Spoilers)

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"Sometimes life gives you lemons, and then you have to say 'f**k the lemons' and bail."

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I'll admit, I'm way behind on this because I started and finished reading two other books in the time between starting and finishing this one.

So, uh....yeah.

Anyway, there's a few things I'm unsure about that I just want to clear up:

1. Does 343 Guilty Spark's existence in this book mean that there was more than one monitor with 343GS' personality/mind/core? Is it possible that Guilty Spark survived the events on Installation 04-2? (Unless the ONI interrogation was meant to have taken place prior to the end of the original trilogy. If that's the case, holy retcon, Batman!)

2. Chakas seemed pretty important to The Didact, even on a personal level; why Installation 04? If 343GS was to carry the records of ancient humanity, wouldn't you think he'd be given a more relevant role? To me, his final position is as just another monitor on just another Halo. Were the other monitors as significant in their organic lives as he?

3. Does anyone think it would have been better had Chakas been made into Offensive Bias, and that all of the Halo Array monitors were just offshoots of him? (Explaining the above dilemma.)

4. So the Primordial was lying when it told the original Didact that it was the last Precursor? Was he an extremely-advanced Gravemind? Was he a mutated Precursor?

5. Mendicant Bias was tricked by the Primordial into believing that "unity," aka the destruction of biological diversity on a galactic scale via consumption by the Flood, is the next step in the evolution of life, and that the Forerunners were too arrogant to accept this? Also, he tricked the ghosts/geas of ancient humans were tricked by Mendicant Bias into thinking that they were to be fighting the Forerunner for him in some attempt at vengeance?

Number two bothers me the most.


[Edited on 02.16.2012 5:07 AM PST]

  • 02.16.2012 3:59 AM PDT
Subject: Finally finished reading Cryptum (Spoilers)
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Posted by: Primo84
1. Does 343 Guilty Spark's existence in this book mean that there was more than one monitor with 343GS' personality/mind/core? Is it possible that Guilty Spark survived the events on Installation 04-2? (Unless the ONI interrogation was meant to have taken place prior to the end of the original trilogy. If that's the case, holy retcon, Batman!)

Mmm. I'm not going to answer this. I suggest you read the sequel, Primordium.

Regardless, I can't remember 343GS in Cryptum at all. Are you confused with MB?

2. Chakas seemed pretty important to The Didact, even on a personal level; why Installation 04? If 343GS was to carry the records of ancient humanity, wouldn't you think he'd be given a more relevant role? To me, his final position is as just another monitor on just another Halo. Were the other monitors as significant in their organic lives as he?
Wait, have you read Primodium?


3. Does anyone think it would have been better had Chakas been made into Offensive Bias, and that all of the Halo Array monitors were just offshoots of him? (Explaining the above dilemma.)
I don't want to say too much...

4. So the Primordial was lying when it told the original Didact that it was the last Precursor? Was he an extremely-advanced Gravemind? Was he a mutated Precursor?
Mmm...

5. Mendicant Bias was tricked by the Primordial into believing that "unity," aka the destruction of biological diversity on a galactic scale via consumption by the Flood, is the next step in the evolution of life, and that the Forerunners were too arrogant to accept this? Also, he tricked the ghosts/geas of ancient humans were tricked by Mendicant Bias into thinking that they were to be fighting the Forerunner for him in some attempt at vengeance?
Not really tricked. Without saying too much, the Precursors wanted unity in the Galaxy... and when the Forerunners couldn't uphold that vision, the mantle, something had to be done.

Sorry about the terrible response, but I suggest you read Primordium next. It answers quite a few questions. And as for your questions in particular, they seem a bit odd... It's like you're getting confused between Primordium and Cryptum... but that could just be because I haven't read Cryptum book in ages and have forgotten what was in it.

/completely useless post.

  • 02.16.2012 4:51 AM PDT
Subject: Finally finished reading Primordium (Spoilers)

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Posted by: jross1993-blam!-!

Sorry! I meant to put Primordium in the title; I just finished reading Primordium.

Oh man, this is embarrassing.

[Edited on 02.16.2012 5:09 AM PST]

  • 02.16.2012 5:08 AM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

2. 04 is a fairly relevant role for Spark. It is the closest Halo to Earth, therefore being the one they will probably find first. Spark is probably going to be one of the first Forerunner artifacts humanity encounters. Don't know about the other monitors.

  • 02.16.2012 5:13 AM PDT

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Posted by: Xd00999
2. 04 is a fairly relevant role for Spark. It is the closest Halo to Earth, therefore being the one they will probably find first. Spark is probably going to be one of the first Forerunner artifacts humanity encounters. Don't know about the other monitors.
Even then, I feel that, given Chakas' relationship with Bornstellar/The Didact and humanity's responsibility as Reclaimers, Guilty Spark's duties as an actual Forerunner construct didn't quite live up to the importance of the knowledge he had.

[Edited on 02.16.2012 5:18 AM PST]

  • 02.16.2012 5:17 AM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: Xd00999
2. 04 is a fairly relevant role for Spark. It is the closest Halo to Earth, therefore being the one they will probably find first. Spark is probably going to be one of the first Forerunner artifacts humanity encounters. Don't know about the other monitors.
Even then, I feel that, given Chakas' relationship with Bornstellar/The Didact and humanity's responsibility as Reclaimers, Guilty Spark's duties as an actual Forerunner construct didn't quite live up to the importance of the knowledge he had.

Guarding a Halo seems like a big duty. Also, when you say knowledge do you mean his Geas or his memories about his time on 07?

  • 02.16.2012 5:31 AM PDT
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Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: jross1993-blam!-!

Sorry! I meant to put Primordium in the title; I just finished reading Primordium.

Oh man, this is embarrassing.

Oh! hahaha. Now it makes sense.

Posted by: Primo84

1. Does 343 Guilty Spark's existence in this book mean that there was more than one monitor with 343GS' personality/mind/core? Is it possible that Guilty Spark survived the events on Installation 04-2?

There was more than one 343GS. The one that John destroyed on Installation 04-2 is gone.

Chakas seemed pretty important to The Didact, even on a personal level; why Installation 04? If 343GS was to carry the records of ancient humanity, wouldn't you think he'd be given a more relevant role? To me, his final position is as just another monitor on just another Halo. Were the other monitors as significant in their organic lives as he?
We know from the Halo CEA terminals that he volunteered to look over the Installation. For what reason in particular? I haven't any idea.

3. Does anyone think it would have been better had Chakas been made into Offensive Bias, and that all of the Halo Array monitors were just offshoots of him? (Explaining the above dilemma.)
Not particularly. The Forerunner couldn't afford to have such an important AI to go rampant on them a second time, so OB was 'contained' to stop it happening again.

I'm not sure if they could've controlled Chakas like that. Honestly though, I'm not sure.

4. So the Primordial was lying when it told the original Didact that it was the last Precursor? Was he an extremely-advanced Gravemind? Was he a mutated Precursor?

I don't believe so. I'm still a little fuzzy on the details (Only read Primordium once), but I think that the Gravemind is a mutated Precursor... at the very least.

5. Mendicant Bias was tricked by the Primordial into believing that "unity," aka the destruction of biological diversity on a galactic scale via consumption by the Flood, is the next step in the evolution of life, and that the Forerunners were too arrogant to accept this? Also, he tricked the ghosts/geas of ancient humans were tricked by Mendicant Bias into thinking that they were to be fighting the Forerunner for him in some attempt at vengeance?
Of course the Gravemind didn't play it off like that. Under a single 'mind', there would be no conflict, only advancement. After 43 years of conversation, the Gravemind was simply able to make MB see its point of view.

I'm not sure why the MB did that. Seems a little odd in the grand scheme of things.

  • 02.16.2012 5:31 AM PDT

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Posted by: Xd00999
Also, when you say knowledge do you mean his Geas or his memories about his time on 07?
Page 356:You are being transferred from your damaged body - a process that will soon be finished. You are becoming, in part, a keeper of the biological records of your race. That seemed the best way to salvage your memories and your intellect, and to contain the most dangerous components of the Librarian's experiments. - The DidactNow that I've reread it and seen that The Didact referred to him as a keeper (singular) of said record, I'm starting to think I might've have slightly overestimated the significance of his status.

Sure, it still sounds important, but it implies that he's not the only one with that record.

[Edited on 02.16.2012 6:05 AM PST]

  • 02.16.2012 6:04 AM PDT

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Posted by: jross1993
Not particularly. The Forerunner couldn't afford to have such an important AI to go rampant on them a second time, so OB was 'contained' to stop it happening again.

I'm not sure if they could've controlled Chakas like that. Honestly though, I'm not sure.
That makes sense, even more so when you consider (in hindsight, or course) that Guilty Spark does eventually reach rampancy of some sort.Of course the Gravemind didn't play it off like that. Under a single 'mind', there would be no conflict, only advancement. After 43 years of conversation, the Gravemind was simply able to make MB see its point of view.

I'm not sure why the MB did that. Seems a little odd in the grand scheme of things.
If I remember the Halo 3 terminals correctly, he somewhat does. If it wasn't the Primordial that said it, then it was definitely Mendicant Bias in one of the several versions of his declaration that he had defected to the Flood.

(Calling the Forerunners arrogant and saying that they're resisting evolution, I mean.)

[Edited on 02.16.2012 6:12 AM PST]

  • 02.16.2012 6:10 AM PDT
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Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: jross1993
Of course the Gravemind didn't play it off like that. Under a single 'mind', there would be no conflict, only advancement. After 43 years of conversation, the Gravemind was simply able to make MB see its point of view.

I'm not sure why the MB did that. Seems a little odd in the grand scheme of things.
If I remember the Halo 3 terminals correctly, he somewhat does. If it wasn't the Primordial that said it, then it was definitely Mendicant Bias in one of the several versions of his declaration that he had defected to the Flood.

(Calling the Forerunners arrogant and saying that they're resisting evolution, I mean.)

Okay, yes. The Forerunners were too arrogant to uphold the mantle in accordance with the Precursors plan.

Other species in the galaxy were treated like animals - For example the San'Shyuum and the Humans. As stated within the book, after 'long study', the Forerunner were declared unfit by the Percursors to uphold the mantle and the plan was to get rid of them. As you know, the Forerunner waged war on the Precursors because of this and won.

The Flood were brought in to eradicate the Forerunner and bring unity to the Galaxy. However, when the rings were activated and the Forerunner' influence over the galaxy was halted, the mantle was passed to the Humans (Which Halo 4 will be about; our judgement)

But I digress. The Flood see themselves as the pinnacle of evolution, and its endgame is unity (basically the mantle). So I believe that MB wasn't tricked at all, as the Precursors actually believed the Forerunner were unfit to uphold the mantle; all the Gravemind did was to explain why.

  • 02.16.2012 6:42 AM PDT

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Posted by: jross1993
Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: jross1993
Of course the Gravemind didn't play it off like that. Under a single 'mind', there would be no conflict, only advancement. After 43 years of conversation, the Gravemind was simply able to make MB see its point of view.

I'm not sure why the MB did that. Seems a little odd in the grand scheme of things.
If I remember the Halo 3 terminals correctly, he somewhat does. If it wasn't the Primordial that said it, then it was definitely Mendicant Bias in one of the several versions of his declaration that he had defected to the Flood.

(Calling the Forerunners arrogant and saying that they're resisting evolution, I mean.)

Okay, yes. The Forerunners were too arrogant to uphold the mantle in accordance with the Precursors plan.

Other species in the galaxy were treated like animals - For example the San'Shyuum and the Humans. As stated within the book, after 'long study', the Forerunner were declared unfit by the Percursors to uphold the mantle and the plan was to get rid of them. As you know, the Forerunner waged war on the Precursors because of this and won.

The Flood were brought in to eradicate the Forerunner and bring unity to the Galaxy. However, when the rings were activated and the Forerunner' influence over the galaxy was halted, the mantle was passed to the Humans (Which Halo 4 will be about; our judgement)

But I digress. The Flood see themselves as the pinnacle of evolution, and its endgame is unity (basically the mantle). So I believe that MB wasn't tricked at all, as the Precursors actually believed the Forerunner were unfit to uphold the mantle; all the Gravemind did was to explain why.
The big question that leaves is why did Humanity had to fight the Flood during their war against the Forerunners.

The Primordial mentions how humanity will rise again, and they will be tested. Well then what the hell was the first time about, Primordial? Logistics error? Even then, when humanity fights the Flood in the original trilogy, they only ever encounter them by chance, or was that not the test?

One page 364, the Primordial heavily implies that the Flood can choose whether to infect or not. The fact that UNSC-era humans encountered the Flood entirely by accident, added to the fact that they weren't even the top technological faction/race in the galaxy, well call me crazy, but that all makes it seem like the Flood-Human encounters during the Human-Covenant War weren't the actual test at all.

Then why choose to infect? Hell, they did it twice to humans; during the Forerunner and Covenant wars.

It reminds me of when a poster here on the forums says something completely stupid, pisses people off, and then claims to be trolling at the last minute in order to save face. That scumbag Primordial needs to get its -blam!- together if you ask me.

Given the way the Forerunners treated the other races after defeating them in war, it makes perfect sense that the Precursors/Flood/Primordial would deem them unworthy given what we know about them and the Mantle. But again, why humans?



[Edited on 02.16.2012 7:18 AM PST]

  • 02.16.2012 7:16 AM PDT
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Posted by: Primo84
The big question that leaves is why did Humanity had to fight the Flood during their war against the Forerunners.

I'm not really sure... My current theory is that the war that the Humans were fighting was against a pre-gravemind Flood. We know that in its earliest stages, the Flood will infect/attack anything. Once the Flood got enough mass to make a Gravemind, it retreated the attack.

(In Cryptum it's stated that the first Flood cells were found as powder on an ancient ship. After using it to domesticate animals for however long, it mutated and the Flood began to evolve as we know it)

The Primordial mentions how humanity will rise again, and they will be tested. Well then what the hell was the first time about, Primordial? Logistics error? Even then, when humanity fights the Flood in the original trilogy, they only ever encounter them by chance, or was that not the test?
The encounter during the Covenant war was just chance. The fact that they stopped attacking the Humans during the Forerunner - Human war could be explained if my theory is true.

One page 364, the Primordial heavily implies that the Flood can choose whether to infect or not. The fact that UNSC-era humans encountered the Flood entirely by accident, added to the fact that they weren't even the top technological faction/race in the galaxy, well call me crazy, but that all makes it seem like the Flood-Human encounters during the Human-Covenant War weren't the actual test at all.
And you'd be correct. The Flood the Humans encountered were just remnants of the Forerunner - Flood war.

Given the way the Forerunners treated the other races after defeating them in war, it makes perfect sense that the Precursors/Flood/Primordial would deem them unworthy given what we know about them and the Mantle. But again, why humans?
Because the Precursors made both the Forerunner and the Humans, it could be deduced that if the Forerunner failed to uphold the mantle, that the Precursors planned for the Humans to take over.

But that's just my theory.

  • 02.16.2012 8:12 AM PDT

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I feel like I've been giving the Flood/Precursors too much credit this whole time.

  • 02.16.2012 8:42 AM PDT
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SC = Supreme Commander/Supreme Canadian.

De Facto leader of the military of the APE (Allied Planets Empire).

Coup = Admiral Asskicker, ZPM hive ship

4)
I understood it to mean that the Flood are basically Tyranid/Reaper-esque beings, that consumed the Precursors, left the galaxy to eat some more, then slowly made their way back.

The Forerunners didn't defeat the Precursors. The majority of the Precursors were consumed, and the bare remnants packed up and ran like hell. The Forerunners, in their untold arrogance, declared it a victory and began to [REDACTED] with the other races.

  • 02.16.2012 6:51 PM PDT
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As many people keep saying Precursor/Flood/Primordial, I want to paste a quote from the book here to help clear things up.

Didact: How can you be the last of anything? I see now that you are nothing more than a mash-up of old victims infected by the Flood. A Gravemind. Were all the Precursors Graveminds? Or are you after all only an imitation of a Precursor, a puppet - a reanimated corpse? Are all the Precursors gone - or is it that the Flood will make new Precursors?

Primordial: Those who created you were defied and hunted. Most were extinguished. A few bled beyond your reach. Creation continued.

I didn't take from this that Precursors = Flood. I think the Didact was close on the mark. The Primordial may see himself as a Precursor judging by his answer at the end of Cryptum. I'm still not buying it.

Just my two cents, haven't made up my mind yet.

  • 02.16.2012 7:35 PM PDT

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Okay, you guys know the first planet that was infected by the Flood was GC617? If you go to the Bible, go to Genesis Chapter 6, verse 17 and you'll be astounded by the last line.

OT: The Timeless One is a Flood/Precursor variant.

  • 02.16.2012 7:49 PM PDT
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:)


Posted by: Swiftkillswitch3
Okay, you guys know the first planet that was infected by the Flood was GC617? If you go to the Bible, go to Genesis Chapter 6, verse 17 and you'll be astounded by the last line.

Well that's comforting...

  • 02.16.2012 8:23 PM PDT

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Posted by: jross1993
Posted by: Primo84
Flood can choose whether to infect or not. The fact that UNSC-era humans encountered the Flood entirely by accident, added to the fact that they weren't even the top technological faction/race in the galaxy, well call me crazy, but that all makes it seem like the Flood-Human encounters during the Human-Covenant War weren't the actual test at all.

And you'd be correct. The Flood the Humans encountered were just remnants of the Forerunner - Flood war.


Hold on, so what did the Gravemind in Halo 2,3, want? Was he/it just misunderstood, left out of the loop of what was going on; woke up all of a sudden cause of all commotion/flailing Grunts, and started demanding answers? Like, why he was on Delta Halo, and how he got there, what cataclysmic event caused the crater/lake, and who built the bloody stone temples around it?

Think I'm starting to feel a bit like the Gravemind myself, in that case - annoyed.

It's strange really, cause when I started reading Primordium, a lot of things pointed towards the Halo being Delta Halo. Would have been more comfortable with it that way.

Gah, getting tired of Halo. When will Bungie give us something too sink our teeth in, if if only a morsel? Or is it just me who's unable to spot their hidden details?

[Edited on 02.19.2012 10:26 AM PST]

  • 02.19.2012 10:12 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

1, If you are talking about Chakas being being split into fragments and those fragments turning out to be installation monitors then yes. It seems that way.

2.In all honestly it is a Didact-bornstellar Fusion. The knowledge of the Didact with the Emotions of bornstellar. *Sigh* chakas carried the records of humanity.


3. Nah, in cryptum it was stated there where more Offensive class AI's.

4. It said in the book it was a precursor it just implied that its race was nothing more than slaves and let themselves get infected.


5.That part hasn't came up yet and i wouldn't say "tricked" since the Domain seems to be supporting the forerunners fall.


you honestly need to re-read it a few times.

  • 02.21.2012 7:13 AM PDT


Posted by: Primo84
I'll admit, I'm way behind on this because I started and finished reading two other books in the time between starting and finishing this one.

So, uh....yeah.

Anyway, there's a few things I'm unsure about that I just want to clear up:

1. Does 343 Guilty Spark's existence in this book mean that there was more than one monitor with 343GS' personality/mind/core? Is it possible that Guilty Spark survived the events on Installation 04-2? (Unless the ONI interrogation was meant to have taken place prior to the end of the original trilogy. If that's the case, holy retcon, Batman!)

Chakas, I think, was the base mind for the 7 Monitors, which is why ONI detected him as Spark since he was the only Monitor they knew

2. Chakas seemed pretty important to The Didact, even on a personal level; why Installation 04? If 343GS was to carry the records of ancient humanity, wouldn't you think he'd be given a more relevant role? To me, his final position is as just another monitor on just another Halo. Were the other monitors as significant in their organic lives as he?

As explained above, he's the base intelligence, not the Monitors themselves

3. Does anyone think it would have been better had Chakas been made into Offensive Bias, and that all of the Halo Array monitors were just offshoots of him? (Explaining the above dilemma.)

4. So the Primordial was lying when it told the original Didact that it was the last Precursor? Was he an extremely-advanced Gravemind? Was he a mutated Precursor?

The Precursors are a collection of races; this is hinted at when Primordial says "[I am] the last of this kind."

5. Mendicant Bias was tricked by the Primordial into believing that "unity," aka the destruction of biological diversity on a galactic scale via consumption by the Flood, is the next step in the evolution of life, and that the Forerunners were too arrogant to accept this? Also, he tricked the ghosts/geas of ancient humans were tricked by Mendicant Bias into thinking that they were to be fighting the Forerunner for him in some attempt at vengeance?

Yes, basically, but it makes sense when you think about it. If evolution is survival of the fittest, the Flood is definitely the fittest. Except instead of the Flood simply destroying the lesser species, it collects them into a single macro-consciousness of "wisdom" and "peace." The Forerunners, according to the Precursors, were stagnating the natural evolution of things.

Still, I wonder if the Flood is only horrible and painful on a surface level. They certaintly don't look peaceful, but the Precursors seemed convinced that the Flood is sort of like a paradise. Perhaps when you've been assimilated fully by the Minds, you're "at rest?"


Number two bothers me the most.


I'm going to give my opinion on your question above as to why we've fought the Flood before, but weren't "tested."

I see the Precursors and the Flood as being two factions that are closely tied to the same goal almost to be one in the same. When the Primordial said "we will return in a thousand millenia" I think he meant the actual Precursors themselves.

I've said this a thousand times before: we have never seen a true Flood invasion, only a small, accidental outbreak. When the Precursors use the Flood, that's when -blam!- get's real.

[Edited on 02.21.2012 7:48 AM PST]

  • 02.21.2012 7:40 AM PDT