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Subject: Harassment in the Gaming Community (Specifically Bungie)

Cammalamm is the best.

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Trash and gaming have gone together like dubstep and cats. What I'm getting at here is trash talk is needed but should not be abused...

  • 02.29.2012 4:00 PM PDT


Posted by: Anti Gov420

The good thing about the internet is that you have the ability to end a conversation at any point and time you desire.

The bottom line here is that you will always have rude obnoxious people because they're people.


I shouldn't have to just put up with disrespect like this in the community, when members of the community just decide that things like this are acceptable you are instantly disrespecting both yourself and the community. Just because you don't feel like its an issue doesn't mean it should be glossed over as SSDD. If harassment is occurring in the community so bad that people choose not to participate in the community there is a problem.

  • 02.29.2012 4:14 PM PDT

"We live in a special time; the only time where we can observationally verify that we live in a very special time" - Lawrence Krauss.

I was a finalist :P

Anonymity is the primary reason. Under the influence of it, people are able to cross the boundary from "fair" trash-talk to harassment without the need to worry about punishment which they would normally receive in a more social environment. The problem is, there is nothing you can really do; not unless you change every single persons behaviour - individually - as they portray this problem online. All there are are safeguards (such as a mute function) which someone can use, but unfortunately, you still have to hear what a player states in order to make that judgement of enabling the mute feature on them. That being said, whilst it isn't a fixture to the problem, it does prevent how much abuse a player has to deal, which is some sort of positive.

Words are powerful, especially when they are used in the correct context; but they only become powerful when others take them to heart. Focusing on this minority of the community isn't what we should be doing; we should focus on all the good times we have when we play the games we love, with the friends we play with, as well as the random players who we verse which are both competitive and great to play against.

  • 02.29.2012 5:01 PM PDT

Posted by: spartain ken 15
I would say I am one of the most successful trolls in Bungie.net history.


Posted by: LongMasterWolf

Posted by: Anti Gov420

The good thing about the internet is that you have the ability to end a conversation at any point and time you desire.

The bottom line here is that you will always have rude obnoxious people because they're people.


I shouldn't have to just put up with disrespect like this in the community, when members of the community just decide that things like this are acceptable you are instantly disrespecting both yourself and the community. Just because you don't feel like its an issue doesn't mean it should be glossed over as SSDD. If harassment is occurring in the community so bad that people choose not to participate in the community there is a problem.


If you're allowing someone to alter your experience then you're letting them win. I wish I had a dollar for every person I have muted/blocked. I really don't see the issue here, it's not like they have a gun to their head saying these things.

What would you suggest they do to stop it without invading our privacy? I believe they have given us the tools to deal with situations like this and if you elect to not use those tools then it's your own damn problem.

  • 02.29.2012 6:02 PM PDT

ISU Cyclones!

Trash talking, although unpleasant and immature to me, isn't bad in of itself.

In the fighting gaming article a line had been crossed, stomped on, then called a whore, slut, -blam!-, and everything in between. Some people don't mean ill and think it's in good fun but the line was crossed in this case. Badly. The end. Anyone thinking in any way this could be anything but condemned is part of the problem, whether they realize it or not.

The trick is telling those ignorant of the line where it is, and if they refuse to acknowledge it get them the hell out of the community. Just what I would do if I were in the fighting game one.

Although with some of the video that has surfaced about the guy doing the harassing in the case... I might be willing to believe him when he says "s*xual harassment is just a part of the community."


[Edited on 02.29.2012 6:57 PM PST]

  • 02.29.2012 6:44 PM PDT

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien.
Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar.
tenn' Ambar-metta!

I think the only thing Bungie must apologize about is for this horrible darkness and show us the light of their new hawtness. Then all is forgiven. ;D

  • 02.29.2012 7:01 PM PDT


Posted by: Anti Gov420

If you're allowing someone to alter your experience then you're letting them win. I wish I had a dollar for every person I have muted/blocked. I really don't see the issue here, it's not like they have a gun to their head saying these things.

What would you suggest they do to stop it without invading our privacy? I believe they have given us the tools to deal with situations like this and if you elect to not use those tools then it's your own damn problem.


This isn't about letting someone "win" this is about whether or not we want to allow racism/sexism/bull-blam!- in our community or even society as a whole. I don't propose we continue trying to create more structures to regulate this sort of thing, the stuff we have now is fine. What we need to do is start changing our attitudes towards this stuff, rather than accept it as a part of life if everyone starts standing up against it those in the community who are continuing this trend will stop and those who may have been influenced to do this in the first place may not start. It's eliminating the problem before it even begins: curing the disease not attempting to treat the symptom.

P.S. I apologize for any errors, a little drunk. Damn Stone IPAs will do it to you.

  • 02.29.2012 11:07 PM PDT

ooga booga boooh


Posted by: AngryNinjaHippo


Having played some Halo 3 with this person, I can vouch for two things. First off, it's true. I care not for the words of people I will most definitely never meet. I guess that's just me though. I can get over the trash talking. Some can't I guess.

Second, this guys is terrible with a BR. That is all.

  • 02.29.2012 11:11 PM PDT
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Posted by: LongMasterWolf


This isn't about letting someone "win" this is about whether or not we want to allow racism/sexism/bull-blam!- in our community or even society as a whole. I don't propose we continue trying to create more structures to regulate this sort of thing, the stuff we have now is fine. What we need to do is start changing our attitudes towards this stuff, rather than accept it as a part of life if everyone starts standing up against it those in the community who are continuing this trend will stop and those who may have been influenced to do this in the first place may not start. It's eliminating the problem before it even begins: curing the disease not attempting to treat the symptom.

P.S. I apologize for any errors, a little drunk. Damn Stone IPAs will do it to you.


1) IPA's are delicious and a great choice to drink. No apologies necessary.

2) You pretty much summed up what I wanted to say about this. The problem isn't with the internet or free speech or anything like that, it comes down to the parents and the things they teach their children about respecting others. If we can get parents to actually discipline their kids instead of shrugging it off as a "phase" it would be a good start.

  • 03.01.2012 7:02 AM PDT
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I <3 you too Bungie

I think functionality built into games that allows you to weed out the asses for your own sake is what will solve this in the long run. I think HoN (Heroes of Newerth) does a great job of allowing a community to be really interactive, but still tweak their experience to fit their own purposes. I can banlist someone (never play with them again), ignore someone (stop hearing their rants, harassment, etc.), I can even block them from casting spells on me if I want. That type of functionality is really imperative in today's gaming realms where you have 12 year-olds playing with grown-ass men. Everyone wants/expects a different level of maturity and interactivity.

As far as Bungie goes, they kinda lead the charge on this type of community with depth in interaction (at least on a large scale). For me, [Bungie era] Halo interaction in-game became broken. I mute people almost every game based on pre-game chatter because it simply isn't fun to interact with them. Many players only chat to insult, rage, etc. Players in Halo 2 were much more about call-outs and generally behaved better. I would guess this is because voice chatting in mainstream games was completely new and nobody wanted to be perceived poorly. Since then, in-game chat has gone to the dogs. I don't have an answer for fixing this, other than to attempt to breed a more respectful community--which is probably impossible.

Edit: +1 for IPA's. Although I'm also a big fan of doubles and the occasional pilsner or well-bred stout.

[Edited on 03.01.2012 8:44 AM PST]

  • 03.01.2012 8:43 AM PDT

Please stop complaining about the 'death of a loved one' it's my job. They probably deserved it anyways. Here's a warning, if you keep making pentagrams out of the neighbors livestock I will personally come to your house and kill everyone you love. Now leave me alone, I got to get back to work.
~M.D~

Paerhaps just to get a reaction. Or the other perons opinion makes the mad. there are alot of reasons, not just one specific reason. But if I could pin it, it would be human nature.

  • 03.01.2012 8:51 AM PDT


Posted by: erac2detsaw2

1) IPA's are delicious and a great choice to drink. No apologies necessary.

2) You pretty much summed up what I wanted to say about this. The problem isn't with the internet or free speech or anything like that, it comes down to the parents and the things they teach their children about respecting others. If we can get parents to actually discipline their kids instead of shrugging it off as a "phase" it would be a good start.


Even going beyond parents its up to the community to change its beliefs about whether this harassment is acceptable.

Also, 8 am class was really fun today after the drinks from last night, luckily it was just social psych.

[Edited on 03.01.2012 9:37 AM PST]

  • 03.01.2012 9:36 AM PDT

Rarity FTW

Go ahead and talk some smack. Just know the limits.

  • 03.01.2012 10:08 AM PDT
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Halo 2 isn't dead jorge...... its just missing in action.
MnF Elite Force <>Brigadier<>

Brown coat 'till the day I die.
Sheningans!
Wake me...when you need me.


Posted by: DeeJ
Posted by: LongMasterWolf
So where is the line between trash-talking and harassment?

Certainly. The line exists within you, as the player.

Trash talking among friends is harmless. You can throw a verbal taunt intended to ignite their competitive spirit or provoke them to make a mistake. With the right sense of humor, you can even accomplish this with opponents that you encounter in matchmaking.

Harrassment occurs when those comments stop being part of a healthy rivaly, and start being a means of making someone feel bad about themselves. Use whatever words you want: shaming, griefing. At that point, you stop being a worthy opponent, and enter the realm of the bully or the sore loser.

The clan that I always played Halo (and other games) with assigned a great deal of value to the notion of sportsmanship. I will not claim that we were always perfect, but we always entered a game with the best of intentions. If we won, we afforded our opponents their dignity. If we lost, we admired the success of the victor - assuming they conducted themselves in a manner that was deserving of our respect.

Sorry for the long post. This topic is near and dear.

Lost for words. Couldn't explain it better.

  • 03.01.2012 10:15 AM PDT
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Posted by: LongMasterWolf

Posted by: erac2detsaw2

1) IPA's are delicious and a great choice to drink. No apologies necessary.

2) You pretty much summed up what I wanted to say about this. The problem isn't with the internet or free speech or anything like that, it comes down to the parents and the things they teach their children about respecting others. If we can get parents to actually discipline their kids instead of shrugging it off as a "phase" it would be a good start.


Even going beyond parents its up to the community to change its beliefs about whether this harassment is acceptable.

Also, 8 am class was really fun today after the drinks from last night, luckily it was just social psych.


While I agree it is up the community to change as a realist I feel that it is an unattainable goal until you start at the source. If we could get the community to change, great. If we can't then I say we make the next generation a better generation and start from there.

  • 03.01.2012 10:51 AM PDT

Oly Oly Oxen Free

Whilst they have anonymity, they will never change.

  • 03.01.2012 4:38 PM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Trash talking is a part of every form of competition, not just video games. I think if you keep it in that realm it's fine (words can only hurt you to the degree that you let them). I get that not everyone wants to be expressed to that, and they shouldn't be, but trying to draw a line in the sand inevitably ends up cratering to one side. Options like the mute feature via Xbox live is a fantastic feature and ultimately leaves the choice up to everyone. You can choose to say whatever you want but people can also choose not to listen to you. Features like that which pretty much allow you to create your own experience without threatening anyone else's are really the best way to solve these types of problems.

In regards to eSports and actual live matches? I don't know. When you've reached that stage you should really be behaving like a professional, and I image any sponsor will pull their support should you act like an idiot while live. I'm still for letting people say want they want (words only become problems when people turn them into actions) but I can completely understand those arguing for the opposite.

Edit:
Posted by: LongMasterWolf
This isn't about letting someone "win" this is about whether or not we want to allow racism/sexism/bull-blam!- in our community or even society as a whole. I don't propose we continue trying to create more structures to regulate this sort of thing, the stuff we have now is fine. What we need to do is start changing our attitudes towards this stuff, rather than accept it as a part of life if everyone starts standing up against it those in the community who are continuing this trend will stop and those who may have been influenced to do this in the first place may not start. It's eliminating the problem before it even begins: curing the disease not attempting to treat the symptom.
Alright, I see where you're going.

I believe that as a macro-issue, harassment, racism, and sexism have to be issues that are resolved by the community (local, state, country, or humanity as a whole). If you want to stop someone from saying something, you don't go to the government, or the sponsor, or the admin of a website and say "I want you to block any and all uses of this word because it is offensive and because it is within your power to do so". That is an exceptionally lazy solution to a problem (just prohibiting it) and I would find it morally reprehensible if someone was calling on an organization to ban something/someone on the grounds that their behavior or speech offended them or they disagreed with it (because it is very easy to get offended and it is very easy to disagree).

As I said before, this problem has to be resolved by the community and the most effective way to decrease the occurrence of these things is to let people know their behavior won't be tolerated (via shunning). If people choose to act like bigots, don't even give them the time of day. Don't respond to them in any way, shape, or form. If you provide a service, refuse to service them. If you see them in town, ignore them and go out of your way to avoid them (this is assuming of course that you live in their vicinity and know of their behavior). If you can get a whole community to do this (effectively letting them know that they can say whatever they want but if they choose to be hateful human beings they will be members of the community in name only) I bet they will change their behavior pretty quickly.

So what does this mean in terms of xbox live? Well the first step would be to mute/block them (which would control the immediate problem of you being offended). The next thing you could do it report them to Microsoft (but thew chances of them taking action are slim) or, if you're feeling bold, crafting a message to everyone on their friends list. Write down what was said and ask them if they really want to be associated with this type of person. Publish their gamer tag online (on websites that ridicule those who harass others) so that others will know what type of person this is. In short, make their behaviors known to as many people as you can and the chances go up that they will be ostracized for their behavior and will eventually cease to exhibit it (all without banning anyone's right to speech).

[Edited on 03.01.2012 5:35 PM PST]

  • 03.01.2012 4:56 PM PDT

Posted by: Implausible
Most girls I've been with were hesitant about taking it in the mouth. But once they did most would swallow. I got tons of compliments on the taste.

I think it's because of my diet. No fast food, no alcohol and lots of fruit.

Posted by: LongMasterWolf
Posted by: Arsenal ATX
Lightweights need to man up. If you can't handle name-calling you just might be -blam!-.


This is the attitude that needs to be crushed, same with the, "well this is just how it is". We shouldn't have to just suck it up and deal with it, there should be more light shined on this fact if the gaming community wishes to be taken as seriously as the rest of entertainment.

The only thing that needs to be crushed is your opponent's sense of dignity. There's nothing better than raping some nerd and calling him a -blam!- ass mother-blam!-.

  • 03.01.2012 8:23 PM PDT

Key

Trash-talking has a cemented place in every single medium of competition since the beginning of time.

It manifests itself from the Ancient Greek Olympics, to modern sports, to gaming, to school yard kickball, to everything in between. It's going to be there from now to the end of time and nothing anyone anywhere does is going to change that.

Now, on the subject of -blam!- harassment and verbal abuse, something like that needs to be nipped in the bud. Once again, its a facet of competition that, while not as prevalent as trash-talking in general, is here to stay it seems. However, it is not acceptable at all, in my opinion (and I would hope the same goes for the rest of you).

Trash-talking can and usually is a welcomed tradition that can be done with both tact and politeness. While it can, at times, escalate to ad hominem et cetera, it is usually playful in nature and is taken in stride as a way for opposing teams to communicate confidence in their own skills at any given competition.

Verbal abuse and -blam!- harassment of any kind in the gaming world is completely uncalled for. While some people may deem it an appropriate action due to its commonplace nature, it's just ridiculous that people can't, in this day and age, just mature past that schoolboy-level sense of humor.

  • 03.01.2012 8:38 PM PDT

Five years older and wiser
The fires are burning, I'm fire, never tire
Slay warriors in the forests, and on hire

Wow people still use in game voice chat on Xbox?

Ever heard of Party Chat? Talk to your friends, don't listen to the garbage. Even when none of my friends are online, I just create an empty party or unplug my mic. I don't think I've used in-game chat for almost 2 years now.

I do however think there are 2 reasons why people cry/complain about harassment on console gaming.

1 - "babbys" wants to defend themselves. If someone is talking -blam!-, just mute them. Who cares? Lukems that -blam!-, right trigger>block communications. Why do you talk back to them or even listen to them talking rubbish? What are they gonna do come and find where you live and continue?

2 - On PC, communities are based around servers. If you're a dick on a server you get banned. Admins generally want to keep their servers a fun place to be. Xbox doesn't have that in any form in moderation and ends up being a open pvp ground for losers fighting for attention by ripping people.

tl;dr stop being a babby. mute them, why are you crying because some neckbeard is talking -blam!-? Oh and your BR-strafe sucks, kid.

[Edited on 03.01.2012 8:54 PM PST]

  • 03.01.2012 8:53 PM PDT

Posted by: Arsenal ATX
The only thing that needs to be crushed is your opponent's sense of dignity. There's nothing better than raping some nerd and calling him a -blam!- ass mother-blam!-.




Definition of raping:raping is a type of -blam!- assault usually involving -blam!- intercourse, which is initiated by one or more persons against another person without that person's consent.

Wow seems unfortunate that you wish to commit this sort of crime.

@Crazysnipe- Why do you disagree with it, but then say its here to stay? If everyone has that same attitude of course it would stay around.

Posted by: ApocalypeX
Wow people still use in game voice chat on Xbox?

Ever heard of Party Chat? Talk to your friends, don't listen to the garbage. Even when none of my friends are online, I just create an empty party or unplug my mic. I don't think I've used in-game chat for almost 2 years now.



Wouldn't it be nice to use game chat? Wouldn't it be great if this wasn't a problem? Also, baby isn't spelled babby.

[Edited on 03.01.2012 9:05 PM PST]

  • 03.01.2012 9:04 PM PDT

Key

@Crazysnipe- Why do you disagree with it, but then say its here to stay? If everyone has that same attitude of course it would stay around. Because I don't believe in the morals and/or ethics of the gaming community at large. I don't believe they can change. And I don't believe that there will ever be any sort of Moral Renaissance (no matter how long of a period it would take place over) and so I don't see any other way it can ever be different from how it is now.

Hence, it's here to stay.

  • 03.01.2012 9:14 PM PDT

Ugh...

First on a BWU.. yeah, I'm cool.

ODST;MYTHIC Screenshot winner! One of the first to get their hands on the mythic map pack.

I'm being harassed by a Bungie.net user as we speak. -___-

  • 03.01.2012 9:22 PM PDT
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  • Fabled Legendary Member

I don't know but I have been banned for harassing my fellow forum goers more than a few times.

  • 03.01.2012 9:42 PM PDT

Posted by: Implausible
Most girls I've been with were hesitant about taking it in the mouth. But once they did most would swallow. I got tons of compliments on the taste.

I think it's because of my diet. No fast food, no alcohol and lots of fruit.

Posted by: LongMasterWolf
Posted by: Arsenal ATX
The only thing that needs to be crushed is your opponent's sense of dignity. There's nothing better than raping some nerd and calling him a -blam!- ass mother-blam!-.

Definition of raping:raping is a type of -blam!- assault usually involving -blam!- intercourse, which is initiated by one or more persons against another person without that person's consent.

Wow seems unfortunate that you wish to commit this sort of crime.

Orly?

You appear to be one of the lightweights that I was referring to earlier.

  • 03.02.2012 1:55 PM PDT

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