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This topic has moved here: Poll [20 votes]: Do you agree
  • Poll [20 votes]: Do you agree
Subject: BOTS BOTS ..That realistically simulate the behavior of multiplayer...
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Poll: Do you agree  [closed]
Yes :  60%
(12 Votes)
No:  15%
(3 Votes)
Not An Issue:  25%
(5 Votes)
Total Votes: 20

I cannot stress enough the frustration of the average player with the fact there are no BOTS on multiplayer maps. For someone (of average talent) who wants to get better at multiplayer there simply isn't a way to realistically attack improvement.

As it stands....there is a gap. What is the gap? How to practice!

Furthermore, this gap..... "cuts off" a huge portion of the possible LIVE market.

Let me explain.... as I have not seen it covered to great extent in the posts.

I would love to play LIVE ..but my reflexes are average.... I get destroyed and vilified...(we all know the stories). Hey, but I'm a trooper....so I kept trying "to improve" but the external combative environment is just to high a price. It simply isn't fun. The frustration has driven me (and I feel safe to say people like me) off of LIVE.

For the average players wanting to improve.... LIVE is intolerable and non-conducive to learning.

Above the environmental elements there also seems to be no "time value" payoff. There seems to be a glass ceiling of sorts.....I feel I could play a 1000 years and not be half as good as my nephews solely because of reflexes. That being said I would still like to try....... in the proper environment !!!

HOW TO BRIDE THE GAP: Create a Conducive Practice Environment
Learning......In a matter that one can verifiably...statistically see improvement....This way... with diligence...... skill can be taught which levels the playing field. Practice offsets the pure reflex of an unskilled player.

The market now opens up...hope is achieved.

Which leads to the AI.....I just finished GRAW and played all the multiplayer maps....the BOTS are closer...but they still do not "simulate the behavior of multiplayer gamers" yet. My hope is that the next generation AI on campaign and with the multiplayer BOTS will makes you a better multi "player".

My guess is the reason realistic AI never existed before was the technology did not exist and gaming multiplayer gaming behavior was still uncharted. Hopefully both problems are solved.


REQUEST ONE: Bots that realistically simulate the behavior of multiplayer gamers

Practicing campaign isn't a good representation as the bots are geographically limited in their behavior. My hope is with all the thousands of games "in the can" Bungie can map the AI to simulate how people play....


REQUEST TWO: Make the bots ever increasing in skill

My hope is that Bungie has developed the technology to adjusts the BOTS to behave as better players do...... as you improve you can adjust the behavior to act in a more skilled manner.....not just faster aiming with more resistance...but better decision making.

All players have characteristics....better players have better habits....and now since a generation of multiplayer games exists.... these differences can be mapped and appliednfor those who want to learn the nuances.

Tutorials on what the better players do....and why....would be a benefit... although wishful.

In GRAW once you got to a certain skill level the BOTS become all but useless....yes they were great for learning the basics...but.....Halo is a different animal....Halo multiplayer is a passion where even the average multiplayer know the games intimately...Even the average player is extremely skilled......Simple BOTS wont due.

REQUEST THREE: Make it so you can measure your progress over time mathematically.

REQUEST FOUR: Allow more give for skill...not just reflexes. This is a nuance...I know.

In my opinion...its straight run and gun....which blocks out a good portion of players who may want to get good but simply cant compete physically...Make it so you can intellectualize.....as a way of getting more competitive. Its a shame when a 7 year old can school and adult who should be able to fight a war on intelligence. Point made. This skill is currently hard to practice and harder to program...and its a taste issue......which is why its the last request.

In conclusion HALO 3 will be the standard for the next generation of games. Probably with a realistic life of 3 or 4 years as H2 is.....If done right the game can be played as an old stand- by for a very long time....I still do campaign in both H1 and H2.

I am very confident that Bungie never anticipated this collateral response when they developed H2 LIVE Multiplayer....so there is no blame. That being said this is a way Halo 3 can really separate itself from its competition in the next generation. Only Bungie has access to the large database of player behavior on their maps...This "trade secret" allows them an edge to make an incredible game.

Thank you for reading this

  • 05.25.2006 9:28 AM PDT

Let me start off by saying: Great write-up you've got there! I think people on these forums can learn from you. You made a request (with multiple sub-requests) and then gave a descriptive reasoning for the request.

I would have to agree with you on the inclusion of bots. Not only for the points you have already made, but also for those of us without Live access. I haven't played Halo 2 since February of 2005 (OK, I did put it in and play the first level when Halo 3 was announced, but haven't gotten the time to get back to it), but I know that I would have played it far more often if I could play multiplayer with bots.

I know Microsoft wants to sell XBL. I know Bungie wants their game to be played over XBL. I also know there are a lot of us that either can't afford or have access to XBL. I believe there needs to be a happy medium; but I don't necessarily know what that medium might be...

  • 05.25.2006 9:40 AM PDT

I understand what your saying, and many Halo players would like some sort of way to practice or try different attacks/tactics. However, I'm not sure if bots are what we really want. Many players on live use unconventional ways to play. As Halo players, we naturally push the levels to their limits and come up with extremely cleaver ways to exploit bases, trees, rocks, hills, and anything that was given to us to work with. With a large amount of "creativity" on live I feel it would be virtually impossible to replicate and anticipate the actions of players once a game is released. With that said, I agree that bots would help one become more comfortable with weapons, gernades, and simple tactics, but the truth of the matter is, to be successfull on Live, you have to play Live.

I also agree that there are 2 ways to play Halo. You can run and unleash a wall of hellfire to level your enemies, or you can take a slower approach with alittle more tactics, possibly sniping to neutralize your foes before approaching a base. Halo CE had a slower pace, possibly because it wasn't on Live, but I will never forget some of the matches I played on CE that were nearly at a stand still with everyone creeping around trying to gain an advantage. Halo 2 has opend the door for trigger happy players to get ahead (not that im complaining). I like both styles of play, and hope that Halo 3 brings some kind of middle ground on this issue. Possibly having some levels that are "shoot 'em up", and others that are more tacticle.

For now the only way to get in good practice without loggin on Live, would be system link. Systeml link also allows you to set the pace of the game, as your friends will usually be more patient than players on Live.

A while back Bungie said something along the lines that bots are either to easy or virtually impossible to kill, and that's why they havn't included them in their games. I will be really suprised if bots are in Halo 3.

[Edited on 5/25/2006]

  • 05.25.2006 9:47 AM PDT
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I know that before I had live, i definitely would have wanted bots. I think they'd be a good inclusion purely for people without live.

  • 05.25.2006 9:49 AM PDT
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One of the reasons why there were no bots in HALO 2 was because MS wanted people to buy LIVE subscriptions to get their multiplayer fix (the other, a personal conjecture of mine, is that they had neither the time, energy, inclination, nor dedication to create one in the rush to get it out to market). Having said that, I'm pretty sure bots will be an inclusion in HALO 3, since PDZ has now set the bar for multiplayer mayhem on the 360.

  • 05.25.2006 9:49 AM PDT
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I don't think you would really become that much better playing bots, as they aren't people, and would never come close to behaving like them, but it was fun in Perfect Dark to play with bots when you were looking to kill some time without other players. But I'm definitely for some form of bots in H3.

  • 05.25.2006 9:50 AM PDT
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Yes.

  • 05.25.2006 9:57 AM PDT
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I'm not a fan of bots in multiplayer games (UT2k4, CS:S, FarCry, BF2, etc) mainly because to me it doesn't improve skill. Bots are only so "smart" and "skillful" and can never match the unpredictable nature of a human player's skill and intelligence. To create a realistic bot that simulates the behavior of a real gamer, Bungie would have to program phrases like, "J0o goT pWN3d Nub!!!" and "yoUr mOmma's a wHor3 nubcake!". They would also have to program these bots to betray you for taking "their" sniper rifle or Warthog.

  • 05.25.2006 9:58 AM PDT

Posted by: Wii
To create a realistic bot that simulates the behavior of a real gamer, Bungie would have to program phrases like, "J0o goT pWN3d Nub!!!" and "yoUr mOmma's a wHor3 nubcake!". They would also have to program these bots to betray you for taking "their" sniper rifle or Warthog.
So in other words, put in the things people hate about Live and destroy the multiplayer utopia that could be?

  • 05.25.2006 10:02 AM PDT

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Great topic, but I would prefer you to place this in the Multiplayer Ideas Thread.

  • 05.25.2006 10:04 AM PDT