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  • Subject: Threads and Blocking
Subject: Threads and Blocking
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There's a general problem on the Bungie.net forums that really ought to be adressed.

Normally, moderators block threads because they're in the wrong forum area, or are abusive/spam. Not here. I understand that there IS a lot of traffic on the website, but this does not mean that so many threads need to be locked. Here's the situation:

A user comes up with something he wants to share with other bungie.net users. He posts a thread, but it is immediately locked, because there is another thread like it. Fine. It's a duplicate; can't they talk about it in the thread already going on? No. The problem arises when there are these absolutely humongous threads with far-reaching topics like "Halo 2 story" or "Ideas for Halo 3", and the moderators force any discussion of those broad topics to go into one of the threads. This would be acceptable if there were maybe, 500 users on the site, but we all know that's not true, and so it doesn't work.

If somebody has an idea, they should be able to post a thread about it, and if nobody reads it, the thread will sink into the infinite recesses of the Forum Archive. If it'san interesting topic, it should be allowed to continue.

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THE MAIN POINT:
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If I want people to discuss... say, the warthog's electric motor system, I should be allowed a thread rather than a message telling me to "post in the warthog topic". See, it doesn't matter how interesting my topic is, because in 5 minutes my comment on "warthog discussion" page 237 is going to be overtaken by 30 more pages of "^_^ warthogs are fun to drive!!1", and no one is ever going to read it. Seriously, if there is one person who goes to page 19029 out of 21308 and scrolls down to read my post, I should like to meet him.

You shouldn't apply this to such threads as "BRING BACK THE PISTOL", which have obvioulsy been made 1000 times and would be locked anyway. If it seems like a new idea, it should stay, even if it's not the very first human contemplation of a video game ever.

  • 05.28.2006 1:55 AM PDT
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I don't think my ideas deserve any more credance than other people's but I believe that IF they turn out to be better, they should have a better chance of propagating, and IF they turn out to be worse, they should NOT, and they should go away. Good and bad ideas currently have the same chance of being heard by anyone, which is to say very little.

Here's some whitewash from the Halo 3 general ideas forum:

I dont get why anyone would want to dual wield swords, first off, it would look rediculous, and secondly it just doesnt serve any practical purpose. A sword already kills in on hit. I think it would be cool if they had the jackel shield in MP so you could block the "noob combo"that would be cool except that its astrong weapon u cant duel weild any really strong weapons,you no what would be sweet, online downloadable missions that bugie makes after thae game is outI also think they should KEEP the pistol the way it is. For realistic reasons of course. The pistol in H1 was overpowered, so everyone shut up and live with the Battle Rifle. That's what a TRUE Halo fan would do.And I spoze Bungie just didn't think it was important enough to put in. But yes, they should bring it back. You lot like halo alot. iv got board of it, but i would like to see a new halo. they should make some more new levels not levels of the old game and change them a bit.I totally agree, i love customising armour but there aint enough symbols an there should be stripes and flame decals you can put around your armour !!bring back boarding action. That was such a great map.Halo 3 Should actually have maybe a new species you can use onlinelike the flood or sumtin
Multiplayer: You can play as the forerunner. Your ammo bar is now a pyschic bar, reflect and refract plasma fire, stop bullets warp the direction of rockets. Control forces for small times, levetate and control vehicles. Fire short and stun like psychic waves. Make amazing feats, huge jumps, twists and levetation.more powerguns. maybe a tracking lazer, with the most autoaim, that has an airstrike kill an area about half a mile wide. but it has to charge up, so its balanced. oh, and it overheats, too...Would everyone agree that the off host shotgun is probably the worst gun in the game?I think they should take out the noob combo or the plasma pistol and also include like a new weapong ummm wats it calld i dont know ill say the covenant rockets u know. the one that shoots 25 bullets
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............|..<|...../|||....\_>--\
....___.....|\.|...[__\.....(___|
./``|`~,|.,-',-'.....\..8.```~~----/_______,.-,____ _______,-,
/_..\....\.....\..........__/____________,-----------------,_ __)---,
...``-,..........\__,-~`,-~~`|o..o|=\.........'-----| | | | |-----
OMG U GUYS LISTEN TO THIS AWESOME IDEA! Alright my new awesome spectacular idea is having mines and traps (not the mines from containment). For the mines u should be able to plant them and either have a remote for it or have proximity mines.
Pilotable Pelican
Flamethrower
Destructable Enviorments
Human Grenade Launcher
Something like the Fusion Cutter in Star Wars Battlefront

I just have one question about this whole "noob combo" thing.
What is a "NOOB COMBO"? I know I should know, but I've never heard the term "noob combo" before,





There are 369 pages of this. There are 25 posts on each topic. No one, no one is going to read through this. Not a bungie employee, not the biggest loser rotting 24/7 in front of his CRT screen. Just let the threads be.

  • 05.28.2006 2:22 AM PDT
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I think that a feature should be created for this site that allows Bungie staff to stop new threads from being created in a forum, if one doesn't already exist. Then Bungie should shut down new posts in the H3 forum. Why? There are 271 pages of threads in the H3 forum. 25 threads per page comes out to 6775 threads on forum. Everything we know about H3 is contained in a few minutes of trailer footage, a short FAQ, and a weekly update. That's it. Why can't that be covered by 6775 threads?

  • 05.28.2006 3:29 AM PDT
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But it doesn't really matter how many pages of threads there are, because they effectively disappear. Only the good ones stay. If you look on the front couple of pages, you'll find either very new threads or very popular threads. Not so for a ton of posts in one thread. They ALL go to the back, no matter what. And you ONLY see the recent ones. Only a few people ever have the chance to see your post.

You can't bump comments.

There are also 25 posts on each page of a thread. 369 x 25 = 9,900. There are ten thousand posts in that one thread (wow), and it only stifles ideas (good or bad). The chance of someone reading a certain post is close to 0, unless you've JUST posted it.

  • 05.28.2006 4:08 AM PDT
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People dont post in the meta stickies then it gets locked. Simple. I prefer this place clean. Why do you think Mjolnir's H3 Idea thread succeeded?

The problems those threads cause is unwelcomed... also this needs to be locked for double postage ;)

  • 05.28.2006 4:20 AM PDT
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Perhaps, but why don't I just go to each forum and post a thread titled "EVERYTHING" and then it will be the only thread?

EDIT: By the way, it succeeded ultimately because a moderator placed it into the "threads of interest" sticky and locked many threads that weren't it, and told everyone to go there.

[Edited on 5/28/2006]

  • 05.28.2006 4:39 AM PDT
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Posted by: Lavarock
But it doesn't really matter how many pages of threads there are, because they effectively disappear. Only the good ones stay. If you look on the front couple of pages, you'll find either very new threads or very popular threads. Not so for a ton of posts in one thread. They ALL go to the back, no matter what. And you ONLY see the recent ones. Only a few people ever have the chance to see your post.

You can't bump comments.

There are also 25 posts on each page of a thread. 369 x 25 = 9,900. There are ten thousand posts in that one thread (wow), and it only stifles ideas (good or bad). The chance of someone reading a certain post is close to 0, unless you've JUST posted it.


That's not how forums are supposed to work. It's not the good threads that go to the top, its the the threads of interest that go to the top. (See the flood for garbage threads that stay at the top for long periods of time). Threads act to organize topics. If a topic is interesting then people post in it. The topic goes to the top. If people have discussed a topic and are no longer interested in it goes down to make room for topics that people are interested in. There are plenty of good topics that go to the bottom of the forum and aren't replied to many times. It's because the users aren't interested in replying.

You do not start a thread to say "Hello I have an idea I want to draw attention to by putting my username on the front page." You start a thread to say "Here is something that falls under the topic of this forum, but it is not being discussed. Here I'll start the conversation." That's why threads/topics are interchangable words. That's why threads have subject lines.

The forum exists for organizational purposes. The forum starts at the top with every subject included and then is seperated into sub forums like the H3 forum, The Flood, etc. Then it is further broken down into topics. To create a new thread when one already exists for that purpose sabotages this organization.

An example:
Bungie creates these forums in part to get ideas from the community right? Say I'm working for Bungie and designing the Warthog in H3. Would it be easier for me to read ideas in one Warthog or multiplayer vehicles thread, or would it be easier for me to collect the same information strung out among 50 different threads all talking about improving a certain aspect of the vehicle? I think that the forum's power for organizing thoughts is maximized by the first case.

This is why its important to think twice about creating new topics. New topics that are truly new are good for the forum. New topics can reduce the signal to noise ratio though.

Posted by: Lavarock
Perhaps, but why don't I just go to each forum and post a thread titled "EVERYTHING" and then it will be the only thread?

EDIT: By the way, it succeeded ultimately because a moderator placed it into the "threads of interest" sticky and locked many threads that weren't it, and told everyone to go there.


Because creating one topic in a subforum doesn't aid organization. The level of organization that includes everything in that forum is already handled by the forum. Creating a post within a forum to hold everything is obviously pointless.

[Edited on 5/28/2006]

  • 05.28.2006 4:47 AM PDT
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Nice post kd5, and MJOLNIR's thread had about 300 pages or something long before Halo 3 was announced.

It started months and months and months ago. Check the dates.

  • 05.28.2006 4:58 AM PDT

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think what youw want, but it doesn't change the fact that the moderators are outnumbered 20 - 2 million,

  • 05.28.2006 5:10 AM PDT
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It's more like 18:1,800,000, but the ratio is the same anyway.

-TGP-

  • 05.28.2006 5:35 AM PDT
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That's not how forums are supposed to work. It's not the good threads that go to the top, its the the threads of interest that go to the top. (See the flood for garbage threads that stay at the top for long periods of time). Threads act to organize topics. If a topic is interesting then people post in it. The topic goes to the top. If people have discussed a topic and are no longer interested in it goes down to make room for topics that people are interested in. There are plenty of good topics that go to the bottom of the forum and aren't replied to many times. It's because the users aren't interested in replying.


That's exactly what I'm talking about. If people are interested in what someone has to say, they'll post about it in their thread. It will be bumped, and people will continue to talk about that as long as they remain interested. When it becomes boring, they stop, and the thread stops. Now though, there are about 20 different topics being discussed in one thread, and the discussion about Warthogs or whatever can effectively erase the entire line of discussion about something else that was on the last page, and now isn't usually viewed by people, because they usually only look at the last page.

Because creating one topic in a subforum doesn't aid organization.

Yes, and how does three or four main topics work? Certainly we can think of more than three or four things to discuss that don't fall under the same set of concerns. It's still not enough. The topics we're forced to pst in are way too general. You can go hunting for something about... how many shots the pistol should take, but "Halo 3 campaign ideas" is HUGE. That's so all-encompassing. I realize there are weapons and multiplayer threads, but again, more than a few topics deserve attention, because there are so many.

The biggest problem is that since the threads are so huge, people walk in, post their little blurb that they couldn't have realized has been posted 200 times already, and then leave. "i think the pistol was unbalanced " says one. "Please don't show MC's face" says another. "let me be a grunt in multiplayer" says yet another. Not much discussion happens. It isn't organised. If we had free threads, I could post during the same time that somebody's arguing about the Flood without getting it bumped to the second-to-last page, and then to the abyss.

EDIT: also, do you realize that it's not just the repeats that get locked? It's the ones that are covered by another forum? It's the "this topic should go in the Mighty Halo Thread of Reckoning" threads that get locked. It would be fine, good actually, if only applied to threads that are very specific, such as "we have a discussion going on about quick AR melees over here" but going "this is has something to do with _____" and directing everyone to the ______ forum doesn't work.

[Edited on 5/28/2006]

  • 05.28.2006 5:38 AM PDT

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Posted by: Great_Pretender
It's more like 18:1,800,000, but the ratio is the same anyway.

-TGP-



18:1,800,001

  • 05.28.2006 5:48 AM PDT

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No higher 7ru7h could ever be said. I too felt the same way as the original thread poster with one of my ideas that Jim suggested that I move to the H3 multiplayer mega-thread. At first I was kind of dismissed by it since I really thought that my topic was one of interest, but I got over it. I just took my topic to the various groups that I'm apart of, and talked it up there. That's what makes being in groups great, if you think something isn't being covered right in the main forums, take it to your group, I'm sure that they'll be willing to talk about it with you. And if they don't want to talk about it, chances are that the people on the main forums wouldn't want to talk about it either. Either way, don't feel put off if asked to post in a mega-thread, the mods are just trying to keep this place a little orderly, almost a complete exercise in futility.

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  • 05.28.2006 6:48 AM PDT

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The problem is that more people are interested in posting than are interested in reading what's been posted. That's the reason we have so many repeat threads. If more members were interested in reading other people's ideas, then we wouldn't feel obliged to locked so many threads.

I don't think any of the moderators would have a problem with honest speculation on what will be in the game and real interest in cracking the puzzles in the trailer, however discussion of this gets more difficult the more threads there are and the more spread out the discussion is among these threads. All we're doing as moderators is trying to make sure that people who are interested in sharing ideas, and not simply throwing them out, have the option to do this.

--Steve asks you to hold a quiet conversation in the middle of a crowded stadium. That's what unmoderated speculation can be like.

  • 05.28.2006 7:07 AM PDT
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I imagine that the closure of the Zanzibar Forum isn't helping traffic issues, I mean the regulars and 'frequent posters' had to have gone somewhere! There must be quite a lot of overlap (not from the content, but from the mindset of 'rapid posting'). Although I can't remember Zanzibar ever being quite as insane as the Halo 3 forum.

A lot of the other forums sure do seem a lot more quiet now though...

  • 05.28.2006 10:03 AM PDT

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Here is the alternative.

No posts get locked for duplicity. Dude A and Dude B (Henceforth referred to as A and B) start threads about a new Puma addition. Posts are worded differently but with same general ideas. A's thread is written better and more people post in it, and with the rest of the alphabet posting other ideas, B's thread is quickly lost. So it's bumped, and then people start noticing it more, A's thread goes to the wayside, and a flamewar erupts between A and B over "whose" idea it was. Poster C comes in and says they're stupid and both threads go off topic. Poster D makes a thread full of really good ideas, and because there is limited room in the forum and so many discussions going on, nobody sees it. People start moaning about how the forum is a mess and they can't find their thread. Poster D makes a new post since he can't find the original one. Now poster D has multiple posts in the same forum with the same ideas. Poster E loses out, because Poster E followed the guidelines and posted in an appropriate thread, and all the repeated and bumped topics push it to the wayside.

Our way (if people would just do it)
Poster A and B both post in the Vehicle thread, then see each others posts when READING the thread. Since they share an interest, a conversation starts in the thread, and the ideas are worked out together. Poster C finds nothing to complain about when making random posts. Poster D makes is post and Poster E is ecstatic that his idea is being discussed by more people because it didn't poof off the forums.

  • 05.28.2006 10:51 AM PDT

Skillet was here and referred to himself in the third person.

Well...that seems exactly like what's happening!

I have a feeling that if it wasn't for the moderators (especially Game JunkieJim) this site would be a lot worse than it already is.

  • 05.28.2006 11:21 AM PDT
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Posted by: Skillet98
Well...that seems exactly like what's happening!

I have a feeling that if it wasn't for the moderators (especially Game JunkieJim) this site would be a lot worse than it already is.


Without the moderators... it would be utter chaos.


You know, GJJ, even if people read each others threads, Dude C will always find something to complain about. If only we lived in an ideal world. Or, at least, in a world where everyone used their brains.

About the main subject, think about this:
New threads get knocked off the front page in a matter of minutes. Most of them don't get a chance. With all ideas in the same thread, people who really want to talk about it will find it.

  • 05.28.2006 11:53 AM PDT
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No posts get locked for duplicity. Dude A and Dude B (Henceforth referred to as A and B) start threads about a new Puma addition... ...and a flamewar erupts between A and B over "whose" idea it was... ...Poster E loses out, because Poster E followed the guidelines and posted in an appropriate thread, and all the repeated and bumped topics push it to the wayside.


Jim, I generally agree with what you're saying, but the problem is that when you have a thread that covers literally hundreds and hundreds of potential topics, the idea of "duplicity" is sort of moot. Of course you should lock repeat threads about the Puma or whatever, but you shouldn't apply the rules regarding duplicate threads to such general and wide-ranging topics as "Halo 3 multiplayer". Something like "bring back the pistol" is not a duplicate of "Halo 3 ideas".

That's all. I think we're... haha, kind of arguing two partially sperate issues here. I'm beginning to notice a pattern.

  • 05.28.2006 4:13 PM PDT
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All i think is those very large threads need to be locked and re-created. I don't want to read thru all 10+ pages, and i can bet most people wont want to either.

Just lock the ones created by the moderators, and re-create them, and link the old one in the new one

  • 05.28.2006 5:13 PM PDT
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Mourne not your comrades who must dwell / too strong to strive -
Within each steel-bound coffin of a cell, / Buried alive;
But rather mourne the apathetic throng / The cowed, and the meek -
Who see the world’s great anguish and its wrong / And dare not speak.

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Posted by: Aznbanisher
All i think is those very large threads need to be locked and re-created. I don't want to read thru all 10+ pages, and i can bet most people wont want to either.

Just lock the ones created by the moderators, and re-create them, and link the old one in the new one


Why? I'm not sure what purpose that would serve.

  • 05.28.2006 5:27 PM PDT

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Posted by: aku
Posted by: Aznbanisher
All i think is those very large threads need to be locked and re-created. I don't want to read thru all 10+ pages, and i can bet most people wont want to either.

Just lock the ones created by the moderators, and re-create them, and link the old one in the new one


Why? I'm not sure what purpose that would serve.


More spam thats what.

  • 05.28.2006 5:33 PM PDT
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"Oh come look at my thread, it is teh bestest"

That's basically what it comes down to. The amount of pages in the Halo 3 forum is confounding based on the time Halo 3 has been official. Everyone just wants their thoughts to be heard and the excitement is getting to them. Everyone is spewing out their ideas and no body is listening. The Halo 3 forum has basically devolved into a shouting match

  • 05.28.2006 5:55 PM PDT