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  • Subject: Forerunner theory (long read)
Subject: Forerunner theory (long read)

Twelve Large ²

An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

The Cortana Letters are filled with rampant speculation. They were way off. Like us right now.

Posted by: EliteSlapPer
I just edited my post, hope that makes sence now...will read threw it again in a few mins...


Did you use Word this time? It'll help. Trust me! It'll all make sense with Word!

  • 06.02.2006 8:44 PM PDT
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I made ur sticky Post!! lol. gratz.

  • 06.02.2006 8:46 PM PDT
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Yeah I used word, and actualy I just re-edited it again and added a few things to make parts more clear.

It is kind of dificult to talk about a time line, is there a program I can draw it in and make a link to?

  • 06.02.2006 9:01 PM PDT

Twelve Large ²

An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

Posted by: EliteSlapPer
Yeah I used word, and actualy I just re-edited it again and added a few things to make parts more clear.

It is kind of dificult to talk about a time line, is there a program I can draw it in and make a link to?



Well, it's pretty much pointless to talk about a timeline. The problem with time travel is that you can make up ANY timeline. Time Travel leaves everything open ended. And allows you to fill in any gap by boring fans with extra crap.

I just want you to explain how Guilty Spark remembers the Chief activating the rings for the first time. If this is the case, since they've only been activated ONCE, then the Forerunners never had a chance to activate the rings..

How can 343 remember the Chief and the Forerunners.. Yet the rings have only been activated once in the current timeline? Please, tell me..

  • 06.02.2006 9:08 PM PDT

Who ever said that the Forerunners were at war with anyone besides the flood in the first place? Please, if it says that anywhere, let me know where it is, because I've heard nothing of it.

Edit: And the battlesuit in the library, it was something along the lines of, "Your battlesuit is merely a level 2 (Or three, some low number.). It is reccomended that you upgrade to a level 12 (Or something along those lines.)"

[Edited on 6/2/2006]

  • 06.02.2006 9:19 PM PDT
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Posted by: Twelve Large
Posted by: EliteSlapPer
Yeah I used word, and actualy I just re-edited it again and added a few things to make parts more clear.

It is kind of dificult to talk about a time line, is there a program I can draw it in and make a link to?



Well, it's pretty much pointless to talk about a timeline. The problem with time travel is that you can make up ANY timeline. Time Travel leaves everything open ended. And allows you to fill in any gap by boring fans with extra crap.

I just want you to explain how Guilty Spark remembers the Chief activating the rings for the first time. If this is the case, since they've only been activated ONCE, then the Forerunners never had a chance to activate the rings..

How can 343 remember the Chief and the Forerunners.. Yet the rings have only been activated once in the current timeline? Please, tell me..


Ok. GS can fly around in space; we know this from the end of H:CE. He is with the Forerunners when they travel into the past. He then starts a great journey of his own and is told to take care of halo after the Forerunners realize they are stranded, 100000 years pass, GS makes it back to Halo, and the MC comes along and finds GS there.

GS told him that because the Forerunners had activated the ring before. "Why would you hesitate to do what you have already done?"

GS seems to think the humans should already know this doesn’t he?? You can hear it in his voice, like when Cortana makes him say what Halo does, he adds, "but you must have already known that, I mean how couldn’t you?" and when he says, "well the arc of coarse" in H2. He doesn’t understand why these descendents of the forerunners have forgotten the plan.

  • 06.02.2006 9:24 PM PDT

Twelve Large ²

An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

Posted by: Excal XVII
Who ever said that the Forerunners were at war with anyone besides the flood in the first place? Please, if it says that anywhere, let me know where it is, because I've heard nothing of it.


We just assume war is a part of life. There's no official word on anything Forerunner(s), for the most part. It's pretty much all speculation, but since we love the slow crawl, we look to inspect the story and possibilities from every angle. We're a bunch of curious cats.

  • 06.02.2006 9:25 PM PDT

People keep making too many assumptions. You assume the Forerunners had a space empire. You assume that their leadership was as ours. You assume that they created the Flood.

Stop making so many assumptions, and provide proof, from Bungie, and nowhere else. There is nothing to prove even the credibility of this theory, let alone that it might be true.

Edit: Grammatical/Spelling errors fixed.

[Edited on 6/2/2006]

  • 06.02.2006 9:27 PM PDT

Twelve Large ²

An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

You STILL haven't answered my question.

HALO!! Two Betrayals!!

343 GUILTY SPARK:
Why would you hesitate to do what you have already done?


343 GUILTY SPARK:
Last time, you asked me, if it was my choice, would I do it? Having considerable time to ponder your query, my answer has not changed.


343 GUILTY SPARK:
There is no choice. We must activate the ring.


343 GUILTY SPARK:
If you are unwilling to help, I will simply find another. Still, I must have the index. Give your construct to me, or I will be forced to take her from you.


MASTER CHIEF:
That's not going to happen.


343 GUILTY SPARK:
So be it. Save his head. Dispose of the rest.


Halo 2!! Great Journey!

343 GUILTY SPARK:
After exhausting every other strategic option, my creators activated the rings. They, and all additional sentient life in three radii of the galactic center, died ...as planned.




Your theory has holes in it. Guilty Spark cleary states that "his creators" (even though it may have been some meany(ies) who took his memories and made him open doors for a living.) activated the rings.

Now, you are trying to say that the Master Chief traveled through time. And that is how Guilty Spark "remembers" him activating the ring too! Too = Two activations!!

2401 PENITENT TANGENT:
Not true. This installation has a successful utilization record of 1.2 trillion simulated and one actual. It is ready to fire on demand.


Bungie's games are so full of -blam!-. I have a pic of the Story Bible, and it looks like an old pair of socks!!!


[Edited on 6/2/2006]

  • 06.02.2006 9:39 PM PDT
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I have a problem with the whole time travel to the past idea. The Forerunners, from what we know, were a very advanced, intelligent species. What several of you are suggesting is that the forerunners activated the rings and traveled back in time to do…? Why would they travel back in time? If they could, why would they not activate the rings and travel FORWARD to a later time when the Flood has died out due to starvation? They could keep all their technology and millennia of evolution. It seems like that going back and blah blah blah… would just be a lot of extra work for, what would seem, like no point. And, if they had traveled back in time (this is the whole problem with time travel for major plots) would they not have traveled back before that to start the civilization? Like a continuous loop with the forerunners arriving from the future, forgetting, slowly developing, creating/discovering the Flood, building the rings and the arc, and then going back to avoid the Flood (this only applies for theories based on the Forerunners being Humans)? When you travel back in time, you will not have been the first of you to have traveled back in time (running into yourself would become a major problem) therefore not having any start to the timeline, in which case it becomes an infinite loop through time. This would make sense for the rings only being activated once but not for GS remembering MC (unless of course GS also travels through time each and every time the loop restarts. This would mean that GS would have encountered MC an infinite number of times. This would also mean that before MC would activate the rings he would ask GS “if it was up to you….” An infinite number of times, then GS travels to the next restart of the loop.)

Just some thoughts, always good to see Bungie fans pondering the next move (although we are often WAY OFF)

  • 06.02.2006 9:43 PM PDT
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Posted by: Excal XVII
Everyone keeps making too many assumptions. You assume the Forerunners had a space empire. You assume that their leadership was as ours. You assume that they created the Flood.

Stop making so many assumptions, and provide proof, from Bungie, and nowhere else. There is nothing to prove even the credibility of this theory, let alone that it might be true.


We will not have proof until H3. This is an idea of how Bungie could wrap the story up. Im sure you agree they do plan to bring all the loose strings together right? That is what makes a great story right?

So if you think I am that far off, how do propose Bungie is going to bring it all together, so far in this section I have seen some great theories, but none that brought all aspects of the games and books together in a nice package.

The reason some of us are doing this (theorizing) is because were problem solvers, we like to try and solve what others have not. Its like a puzzle. Think about things that others have over looked. That is what I am doing here. It is interesting to some, for others they dont care, they just want to play the game, or play MP...this thread is for those more interested in the story and where that is going...Im not asking you to like my ideas, or agree with them, they are just the events I can see that would explan all that we dont yet know. You are right, this is all speculation, and if you dont want to read it, you dont have too.

So dont let the door hit you where the good lord split you. As for me, I will be back in a while.

:)--~

  • 06.02.2006 9:48 PM PDT
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you may have just ruined the game for me... but great post *applause*

  • 06.02.2006 9:52 PM PDT

I don't have a problem with speculation. It's retarded and baseless speculation I have a problem with. I've also seen some great theories in the Halo forums, but this is certainly not one of them.

  • 06.02.2006 9:53 PM PDT

Twelve Large ²

An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

Posted by: Twelve Large
2401 PENITENT TANGENT:
Not true. This installation has a successful utilization record of 1.2 trillion simulated and one actual. It is ready to fire on demand.



We could also assume that "this" installation speaks for Delta Halo alone. But we know that once one ring is activated, the others will follow suit. So I don't see where you can go from here.. You're going to have to make up some crazy stuff to fill in the gaps. Crazy stuff is for MGS.

Maybe Gravemind has control of PT and made him lie! Slow crawl!! ahh!

[Edited on 6/2/2006]

  • 06.02.2006 9:54 PM PDT
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Posted by: Twelve Large
You STILL haven't answered my question.

HALO!! Two Betrayals!!

343 GUILTY SPARK:
Why would you hesitate to do what you have already done?


He says this because the forerunners aleady activated the rings once, some time in the future from where the MC is currently, the Forerunners traveled back in time before the rings were activated (so not to be wiped out along with everything else) and went into the past...a 100000 years go by (from the time they arive in our past) and guilty spark says that to the MC. To GS it is past, but really the ring was activated in the future understand?

343 GUILTY SPARK:
Last time, you asked me, if it was my choice, would I do it? Having considerable time to ponder your query, my answer has not changed.


He has had 100000 years to think about what they did, its a good plan, so he figures they should stick with it.

343 GUILTY SPARK:
There is no choice. We must activate the ring.


It worked last time, it should work this time. But it has to be done, because if they dont activate the ring in this time, GS doesnt know how that will efect the future that the Forerunners planed to eventualy go back to.

343 GUILTY SPARK:
If you are unwilling to help, I will simply find another. Still, I must have the index. Give your construct to me, or I will be forced to take her from you.


He has been guarding halo for 100000 years, he knews eventualy a desendent would find there way back, and if the MC doesnt do it, he would eventualy find another.

MASTER CHIEF:
That's not going to happen.


MC doesnt understand what he is a part of.

343 GUILTY SPARK:
So be it. Save his head. Dispose of the rest.


(This is a funny line, because in the Bible, Johns head is cut off and the rest is left, but there is lots of stuff like this, and that would be getting us off topic haha)

You continue and say...

Halo 2!! Great Journey!

343 GUILTY SPARK:
After exhausting every other strategic option, my creators activated the rings. They, and all additional sentient life in three radii of the galactic center, died ...as planned.


Right, thats what Im saying. Only a few would have been on the arc, just like the ark didnt take everyone. Forerunners, flood and who ever else was around when they first activated the ring were killed, anywhere from 2 to say 1000s could have left on the arc before the rings were activated.


Your theory has holes in it. Guilty Spark cleary states that "his creators" (even though it may have been some meany(ies) who took his memories and made him open doors for a living.) activated the rings.

Now, you are trying to say that the Master Chief traveled through time. And that is how Guilty Spark "remembers" him activating the ring too! Too = Two activations!!

2401 PENITENT TANGENT:
Not true. This installation has a successful utilization record of 1.2 trillion simulated and one actual. It is ready to fire on demand.


Bungie's games are so full of -blam!-. I have a pic of the Story Bible, and it looks like an old pair of socks!!!


[Edited on 6/2/2006]

  • 06.02.2006 10:11 PM PDT
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And as for the other oricals (or GS), I would asume there are 7 of them, they too would have been on the arc when the forerunners traveled back to a time where it was safe.

If there are more holes, let me know, I will try and fill them in best I can.

A lot of my theory is based on that conversation in Two Betrails, and what GS said to the MC there. But so far everything that any of the charicures have said in eather game or in the books would fit in with this theory.

I know this is hard to wrap your head around, but ask questains, I am not trying to give anyone the run around, I will answer any questains directed to me the best I can.

Does my last post fill the holes you mentioned about why GS said all of those quotes?

  • 06.02.2006 10:21 PM PDT

Twelve Large ²

An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

No, because the rings have only been activated once in the current timeline. I can't say this enough..

2401 PENITENT TANGENT:
Not true. This installation has a successful utilization record of 1.2 trillion simulated and one actual. It is ready to fire on demand.


At this point in time, the rings have only been activated once!!


The only thing I can think of, is that 343 is some kind of Oracle? Who knows.. But what we DO know, is that the rings have only been activated once as of now, based on the quote I've posted above which was taken from the beginning of "Gravemind" in Halo 2.

If they Chief would have activated the Ring, like you're trying to claim - based on 343 Guilty Sparks word (is he even normal?), then the quote above taken from Pentient Tangent would have stated "and TWO actuals."


Also.. You stated..

What if the forerunners could control this ability to some extent, and did not die or get wiped out when the halos were activated the last time? What if they are somewhere else in time?

Then you made up another theory to answer my questions.. And said 343 went back in time too!!

So.. Here's another question.. Why would he then state this in Halo 2 near the end?

343 GUILTY SPARK:
After exhausting every other strategic option, my creators activated the rings. They, and all additional sentient life in three radii of the galactic center, died ...as planned.


So now you're going to say "half" of 343 went back in time, and the other "half" stayed in this timeline? Please, this is turning into a mind ****... Of MGS proportions! The story would no longer be simple and fun for those that don't like slow crawls. Halo was good.. It was KISS. And everyone enjoyed it. Cause it was a good story for those that don't care about seeing how far the rabbit hole goes.. And it was a good story for those that do care. Halo 2 made a lot of gamers say "WTF!!" And if Halo 3 ends up with as many holes as your theory, it'll only get worse. KISS works. So do deep rabbit holes. But without KISS? It's not good.


I love this quote too.

[Edited on 6/2/2006]

  • 06.02.2006 10:45 PM PDT
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I answered all of the quotes you posted from 2B, let me know what you think. Do you understand what Im saying about when the Halos were activated? That part makes all the difference. It happened in GS's past right, 100000 years ago...he couldnt very well say the rings were activated in the future right, that would give away the plot. Some of the Forerunners left on the arc for the past, Im sure meny were left behind, and they activated the rings, OR the Forerunners who escaped on the arc had control and activated the rings and then left...that part doesnt really matter. Fact is, everyone that wasnt on the arc when it left died, that means both flood and any forerunners who didnt leave on the arc.

The ones that did leave on the arc, took all the guilty sparks with them, and when they got to the past, the GSs all returned to the halos they were designated to. 100000 years go by, and in comes the reclamer the MC...now re-read those quotes...they make sence.

The only thing I have not explaned is why there are halos in the past, why there are halos if they have not yet been made...because my theory says they were built in the future right, so prehaps the halos traveled threw time as well with the arc, but stayed where they were supposed to. If this was the case, then all of the GS's could have stayed on each of them, and just been waitting for someone to show up...understand?

*Before I posted this, I read what you have added... so I will add a little more.

"No, because the rings have only been activated once in the current timeline. I can't say this enough..

2401 PENITENT TANGENT:
Not true. This installation has a successful utilization record of 1.2 trillion simulated and one actual. It is ready to fire on demand.

At this point in time, the rings have only been activated once!!"

That is right, but the rings wernt activated in this time line, they were activated in the future.
Only once. To GS that happened 100000 years ago. Now they have to activate the rings again. (in the past, in our time) But really, because the rings were activated in the future and they traveled back in time, the rings have never been activated before. (in this time) If the MC activates the rings, it will technicly be the first time in this time line, and once he travels to the future, to after the rings were activated by the forerunners (in the future) the rings will have been activated twice in total. When he arives in the future, there will still be no life because the forerunners will have just activated the rings. I would asume they would return to the Forerunners future but after the flood had starved themselfs out, so however much longer that would take, I dont know. But that may have been the reason why they kept flood for study, to see how long it would take for them to die maybe. What other porpose would there have been to keep some for study if the forerunners were just planning to kill themselfs anyways...what would be the point? If your going to kill yourself, you dont spend your last living moments studying for a test right. They must have thought that information would be useful if their desendants were going to know when a safe time would be to return right?

I need that drawing program so I can make a visual and link it easy...help me out someone.


[Edited on 6/2/2006]

  • 06.02.2006 11:04 PM PDT

Twelve Large ²

An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

So Guilty Spark knows that the rings have been activated twice.. But Pentient Tangent doesn't? Why? Are you now going to say Pentient Tangent didn't travel through time too?

What makes you think Guilty Spark was taken through time when the Forerunners activated the rings? The Creators could easily clone more Monitors. Anyways, based on your theory, 343 remembers the Chief activating the rings.. And he remembers the Forerunner dying, as planned. Those are his memories. Memories are very important. We lose them. 343 shouldn't, right?

So.. You still can't explain how 343 remembers the his creators (Forerunner?) "dying," as planned. If he's been around, traveling through time as you claim, then he would remember that the Forerunner "did not die," because it was a "TIME MACHINE!!" He would know this. How is this memory lost? Why would 343 say what he did at the end of Halo 2, if he's seen the past, and the future?

[Edited on 6/2/2006]

  • 06.02.2006 11:26 PM PDT
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I will also point out that 100000 years of evolution would make changes to the Forerunners, as someone stated, the forerunners had six fingers. It is posable that over time this sixth finger was no longer needed. But much of the DNA would be the same, this is proved by only the humans being able to activate anything.

If you do a search on people today with six fingers, Im sure you will find info on it. I personaly knew a girl that had something that resembled a sixth finger removed, so there must be others.

I just Googled it.

Theres tones of stuff.

Keep the Qs comming and someone plz send me a on-line drawing program I can use to make a quick link to. I know of one but cant think of its name...

  • 06.02.2006 11:34 PM PDT

Twelve Large ²

An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

Posted by: EliteSlapPer
That is right, but the rings wernt activated in this time line, they were activated in the future. Only once. To GS that happened 100000 years ago.


What? They were activated once in the future - 100,000 years ago? Are you sure you're using Word?

Posted by: EliteSlapPer
I need that drawing program so I can make a visual and link it easy...help me out someone.


take it to halo.bungie.org. They will help you out, I'm sure. Assuming they think your theory is good enough.

  • 06.02.2006 11:45 PM PDT

Twelve Large ²

An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

Posted by: EliteSlapPer
I will also point out that 100000 years of evolution would make changes to the Forerunners, as someone stated, the forerunners had six fingers. It is posable that over time this sixth finger was no longer needed. But much of the DNA would be the same, this is proved by only the humans being able to activate anything.

If you do a search on people today with six fingers, Im sure you will find info on it. I personaly knew a girl that had something that resembled a sixth finger removed, so there must be others.

I just Googled it.

Theres tones of stuff.

Keep the Qs comming and someone plz send me a on-line drawing program I can use to make a quick link to. I know of one but cant think of its name...


Take this theory to halo.bungie.org. Touch it up first, if need be. Then ask them to help you out because Twelve Large is being a dick. Don't worry. It'll help encourage them to do your dirty work for you if they find your theory is worth looking into. ; ) Use me, to use them, so I can use you to see where the -blam!- you're coming from with this time travel crap!!!

  • 06.02.2006 11:48 PM PDT
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Posted by: Twelve Large
So Guilty Spark knows that the rings have been activated twice.. But Pentient Tangent doesn't? Why? Are you now going to say Pentient Tangent didn't travel through time too?

No both of them know its been activated once. But they know it must be activated again because the flood has been let loose in the past as well (that was not the plan). They both traveled back in time, but at this point the rings have only been activated once, and it was in the future.

What makes you think Guilty Spark was taken through time when the Forerunners activated the rings? The Creators could easily clone more Monitors. Anyways, based on your theory, 343 remembers the Chief activating the rings.. And he remembers the Forerunner dying, as planned. Those are his memories. Memories are very important. We lose them. 343 shouldn't, right?

Well GS does seem crazy haha, but he also thinks that the MC is a forerunner decendent or he would not be calling him reclamer right. The MC doesnt have 6 fingers, but would still be more simalar to the forerunners then say the brutes. He belives that its up to the MC to activate the rings. 343 is following protocall right, he says the rings must be activated, but only because the flood have been released.

So.. You still can't explain how 343 remembers the his creators (Forerunner?) "dying," as planned. If he's been around, traveling through time as you claim, then he would remember that the Forerunner "did not die," because it was a "TIME MACHINE!!" He would know this. How is this memory lost? Why would 343 say what he did at the end of Halo 2, if he's seen the past, and the future?


[b]343 and the rest of the oricals, if from the future, would feel they belonged to the future right. If you were to get tossed back into the past, you would not consider it "your" time.
To them, when they left the future they left everyone behind, all those that were left behind died. In that future time line there is no life, that was the plan.

The oricals along with the forerunners traveled to the past prehaps to allow the tests on Halo to compleat (so when they did go back to there own time, they would know how much further they would have to travel into the future). And over time the only thing that didnt change or evolve was those oricals. The forerunners evolved into humans, and now that they have returned to the rings, the keepers (such as GS) are ready to continue with the plan. And that is to take the arc back to the future where everyone belongs and start over in a freash new galexy that has no flood or any enimies. An Adam and Eve if you will.

GS does say that he thinks it was a mistake to keep some of the flood for study tho, he says they are too dangerus. Letting the flood loose in the past (which is really our current time in the Halo universe) was not part of the plan for sure. They were only ment to be studied in the past, not let loose right. But because they have been let loose, the rings must be activated again...for the first time, understand?

  • 06.02.2006 11:59 PM PDT
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Posted by: ICEMAN ASSASS1N


"and this time, none of you will be left behind." (prophet of mercy)




no he says that because hes being true to his name and he being merciful...(regret was true to his name and from what i can tell truth was to) they will all experience the great journey and no one will be "left behind" like what the believe happened the first time the halos were activated

  • 06.03.2006 12:14 AM PDT
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Ok I have made a time line. This will hopfully explain much better what I am trying to say.

http://artpad.art.com/?j09wzzu4yhk

Wait for the whole thing to finish drawing, I went back and forth and if you try to read it as it draws, you will get messed up. Give it a few mins and then read it.

[Edited on 6/3/2006]

  • 06.03.2006 12:35 AM PDT