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Subject: Why does ONI want to sabotage what Hood is trying to do with the....

-bow chicka brown cow-

...Elites? Seriously, allying with the elites, or even making peace would be more worth while than just splitting them up. Im not saying they aren't justified in their logic, but there are other means of keeping them from attacking. Humanity reigniting the war would be like M.A.D. for them, NO ONE wins. I know humanity wouldnt forget what happend, but still, is ONI that morally lacking as to kill members of the race who didnt even touch some people? (women, children)

[Edited on 04.26.2012 2:38 PM PDT]

  • 04.26.2012 2:32 PM PDT

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[*Please note that anything in my posts is likely to be filled with sarcasm, and should be taken with a pinch of salt. I tend to help people, usually*]

I believe the real reason is so that 343i has a decent cop-out reason for why we fight Elites and Grunts in Halo 4. I don't actually believe there a decent underlying reason for it; I just believe it's easier to introduce old enemies than to come up with all brand-new ones for the game's introduction and potentially throughout.

  • 04.26.2012 2:36 PM PDT

they did this because the elites were doing this, what do you think telcem was going to do once he took power, organise farms, no he was going to eradicate the humans, he is a devout religious person and humans are an insult to his religion, he only played along with ONI so he could gain power then he would have betrayed ONI. ONI knew this but were hoping civil war would start between the elites there by weakening them more allowing humans to land the final killing blow, it was all about which betray would happen first.

  • 04.26.2012 2:38 PM PDT

-bow chicka brown cow-


Posted by: trickytricktric
they did this because the elites were doing this, what do you think telcem was going to do once he took power, organise farms, no he was going to eradicate the humans, he is a devout religious person and humans are an insult to his religion, he only played along with ONI so he could gain power then he would have betrayed ONI. ONI knew this but were hoping civil war would start between the elites there by weakening them more allowing humans to land the final killing blow, it was all about which betray would happen first.
Still dont like, Arby and his loyalists are the ones actually trying to ally with humanity at least so there isnt M.A.D.

[Edited on 04.26.2012 2:39 PM PDT]

  • 04.26.2012 2:39 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: SonicJohn
I believe the real reason is so that 343i has a decent cop-out reason for why we fight Elites and Grunts in Halo 4. I don't actually believe there a decent underlying reason for it; I just believe it's easier to introduce old enemies than to come up with all brand-new ones for the game's introduction and potentially throughout.

This. Anything else is pretty much superfluous.

  • 04.26.2012 2:49 PM PDT

The alliance between the two only existed because they had bigger fish to fry. They don't trust each other in even the slightest bit now that the common enemy is gone.

People who slaughtered each other for 30 years nonstop tend to be like that.

Now do I agree with Parangosky? No. She's a cold-hearted, self-centered -blam!-. She doesn't give two -blam!-s about anything other than her own personal interests/legacy. She is a moron for trying to kill off the Arbiter rather than make peace, but we know that because we have an objective, bird's eye view of the situation. Neither of the sides have that, only their own interpretation of events, which in Parangosky's case is that the Covenant were seriel killers, and now they're severely vunerable.

Can't blame someone with a limited view of things. Diasagree with them, sure, as we all do, but in their perspective, they have only their interests a heart. And their very instinct is telling them that the Covenant are bastards.

[Edited on 04.26.2012 2:53 PM PDT]

  • 04.26.2012 2:52 PM PDT

-bow chicka brown cow-


Posted by: ROBERTO jh
The alliance between the two only existed because they had bigger fish to fry. They don't trust each other in even the slightest bit now that the common enemy is gone.

People who slaughtered each other for 30 years nonstop tend to be like that.

Now do I agree with Parangosky? No. She's a cold-hearted, self-centered -blam!-. She doesn't give two -blam!-s about anything other than her own personal interests/legacy. She is a moron for trying to kill off the Arbiter rather than make peace, but we know that because we have an objective, bird's eye view of the situation. Neither of the sides have that, only their own interpretation of events, which in Parangosky's case is that the Covenant were seriel killers, and now they're severely vunerable.

Can't blame someone with a limited view of things. Diasagree with them, sure, as we all do, but in their perspective, they have only their interests a heart. And their very instinct is telling them that the Covenant are bastards.
I did point out that i thought their logic was justified, i just think that they should look past the years of war at the bigger picture and how another galactic war between the two would affect them both in the long term and short term

[Edited on 04.26.2012 3:10 PM PDT]

  • 04.26.2012 3:09 PM PDT


Posted by: crumpster212

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
The alliance between the two only existed because they had bigger fish to fry. They don't trust each other in even the slightest bit now that the common enemy is gone.

People who slaughtered each other for 30 years nonstop tend to be like that.

Now do I agree with Parangosky? No. She's a cold-hearted, self-centered -blam!-. She doesn't give two -blam!-s about anything other than her own personal interests/legacy. She is a moron for trying to kill off the Arbiter rather than make peace, but we know that because we have an objective, bird's eye view of the situation. Neither of the sides have that, only their own interpretation of events, which in Parangosky's case is that the Covenant were seriel killers, and now they're severely vunerable.

Can't blame someone with a limited view of things. Diasagree with them, sure, as we all do, but in their perspective, they have only their interests a heart. And their very instinct is telling them that the Covenant are bastards.
I did point out that i thought their logic was justified, i just think that they should look past the years of war at the bigger picture and how another galactic war between the two would affect them both in the long term and short term


That WOULD make sense from a totally objective people, such as people who weren't in the war fighting, or even the ones who fought alongside the Arbiter and the Elites. But these aren't those people. People are simply not fully logical because they don't have the full picture. All Parangosky knows is that the Elites slaughtered billions upon billions of people for 30 years, ruined our infrastructure, had every intention of killing every last one of us, only helped out because we faced a common threat, and were only "friends" for a few weeks at most. It was a sudden, desperate alliance.

Now, the only thread that held that alliance together is dead, and 30 years of genocide simply can not be ignored. SHOULD they make up? Yeah. But then again, this war SHOULDN'T have happened in the first place, if we were dealing with people we can call better than humans, objective people. To think that after all that they would be tolerant towards each other, especially given the limited perspectives of either party, is naïve idealism.

[Edited on 04.26.2012 3:23 PM PDT]

  • 04.26.2012 3:22 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

The ONI plan is not only short sighted, but amateurish:

It is a huge risk, one that I personally don't see someone as experienced as Parangosky taking. 'Telcam's concern is in getting rid of the Arbiter. He is likely to use whatever political leverage he can in order to achieve that, and using the Arbiter's "fondness" for Humanity is something which he could attack. Specifically, double crossing ONI at any time by making it look as if the Humans contacted him with the interest of promoting his faction against the others (Which is true, technically); pointing out how the Humans wish to create strife between the Sangheili and weaken them further, and how the Arbiter was unwise to trust them. It would weaken the Arbiter's position substantially, which is all 'Telcam wants in the end. However it would have the nasty side effect of implicating Humanity, giving the Elites a strong reason to further despise them, giving them focus and a good incentive to wipe them out. 'Telcam could even say that he accepted shipments from ONI so that he could ensure that he would have tangible evidence to bring to his people, and not mere accusations.
Telcam doesn't give a damn about what happens to Humanity, he dislikes them greatly, so using them as a means to discredit the Arbiter would give him no issues. The Sangheili would likely fall for the non-sequitur of "He was wrong about the Humans, maybe he is also wrong about the Gods too!". And this is not pointed out once by anyone. This is ONI here, the people who are experts in this sort of stuff, and the concept of 'Telcam doing this sort of double crossing move is never brought up.

'Telcam is as smart as the plot requires him to be. All the characters are. ONI trusting a Sangheili that they know NOTHING about, not to turn around and betray them right after that first shipment of weapons makes me raise an eyebrow.

  • 04.26.2012 3:50 PM PDT

Halo 4's going to suck I can feel it. Grunts and Elites all over again, Master Chief-centric with no supporting characters other than Cortana, no twists. Same old same old - Master Chief blows up some superstructure and escapes somehow with Cortana, saving the day and living to fight another day.

S.S.D.G.

  • 04.26.2012 3:51 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
The ONI plan is not only short sighted, but amateurish:

It is a huge risk, one that I personally don't see someone as experienced as Parangosky taking. 'Telcam's concern is in getting rid of the Arbiter. He is likely to use whatever political leverage he can in order to achieve that, and using the Arbiter's "fondness" for Humanity is something which he could attack. Specifically, double crossing ONI at any time by making it look as if the Humans contacted him with the interest of promoting his faction against the others (Which is true, technically); pointing out how the Humans wish to create strife between the Sangheili and weaken them further, and how the Arbiter was unwise to trust them. It would weaken the Arbiter's position substantially, which is all 'Telcam wants in the end. However it would have the nasty side effect of implicating Humanity, giving the Elites a strong reason to further despise them, giving them focus and a good incentive to wipe them out. 'Telcam could even say that he accepted shipments from ONI so that he could ensure that he would have tangible evidence to bring to his people, and not mere accusations.
Telcam doesn't give a damn about what happens to Humanity, he dislikes them greatly, so using them as a means to discredit the Arbiter would give him no issues. The Sangheili would likely fall for the non-sequitur of "He was wrong about the Humans, maybe he is also wrong about the Gods too!". And this is not pointed out once by anyone. This is ONI here, the people who are experts in this sort of stuff, and the concept of 'Telcam doing this sort of double crossing move is never brought up.

'Telcam is as smart as the plot requires him to be. All the characters are. ONI trusting a Sangheili that they know NOTHING about, not to turn around and betray them right after that first shipment of weapons makes me raise an eyebrow.


HOWEVER...

...If said agenda WERE to be implicated, could give rise to a cool final battle between the Elites and the Humans, and possibly even a final showdown between the Arbiter and Master Chief.

Could be coolish.

[Edited on 04.26.2012 3:55 PM PDT]

  • 04.26.2012 3:54 PM PDT


Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Halo 4's going to suck I can feel it. Grunts and Elites all over again, Master Chief-centric with no supporting characters other than Cortana, no twists. Same old same old - Master Chief blows up some superstructure and escapes somehow with Cortana, saving the day and living to fight another day.

S.S.D.G.


Except for the fact that an entire new enemy faction has been confirmed, there has been confirmation of brand new main/supporting characters, and you do not know the game and so can not say "no twists."

So yeah, S.S.D.D

[Edited on 04.26.2012 4:12 PM PDT]

  • 04.26.2012 4:12 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
HOWEVER...

...If said agenda WERE to be implicated, could give rise to a cool final battle between the Elites and the Humans, and possibly even a final showdown between the Arbiter and Master Chief.

Could be coolish.

Totally. Then we could get more cutscenes like this and scream HUMANS F**K YEAH! Who needs speculative fiction any more; who cares about aspiration, important moral teachings and life experiences, or the emphasis on what could be; screw all that pedantic and soft hearted rubbish. This is Halo 40k, right? I want my Space Marines to kill Xeno scum for the same reason that Battlefield Earth is obviously far better than Star Trek TNG's stories. We could analogize it to the Cold War or something, with the Humans as Capitalists and the Sangheili as Commies, because wars fought never end, right? (Don't pay attention to the fact that 99% of wars that have ever been fought have ended because people got over it, or the bloody 1000 year period of history between France and England. These are just rare exceptions, and France and England are obviously still at war.)

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to campaign to get the definition of the word "believable" redefined to mean "realistic" so that Roberto can finally say that Bungie's opinion was wrong! (And that zeitgeists don't happen. Pay no attention to the Civil Rights Movement, or the Abolishment of Slavery, or the emergence of Secularism. These are just conspiracies. Mass social movements are impossible.)

*urgh*

Sorry, too much sarcasm for me to stomach.

  • 04.26.2012 4:44 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: ThePredkiller2
HOWEVER...

...If said agenda WERE to be implicated, could give rise to a cool final battle between the Elites and the Humans, and possibly even a final showdown between the Arbiter and Master Chief.

Could be coolish.

Totally. Then we could get more cutscenes like this and scream HUMANS F**K YEAH! Who needs speculative fiction any more; who cares about aspiration, important moral teachings and life experiences, or the emphasis on what could be; screw all that pedantic and soft hearted rubbish. This is Halo 40k, right? I want my Space Marines to kill Xeno scum for the same reason that Battlefield Earth is obviously far better than Star Trek TNG's stories. We could analogize it to the Cold War or something, with the Humans as Capitalists and the Sangheili as Commies, because wars fought never end, right? (Don't pay attention to the fact that 99% of wars that have ever been fought have ended because people got over it, or the bloody 1000 year period of history between France and England. These are just rare exceptions, and France and England are obviously still at war.)

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to campaign to get the definition of the word "believable" redefined to mean "realistic" so that Roberto can finally say that Bungie's opinion was wrong! (And that zeitgeists don't happen. Pay no attention to the Civil Rights Movement, or the Abolishment of Slavery, or the emergence of Secularism. These are just conspiracies. Mass social movements are impossible.)

*urgh*

Sorry, too much sarcasm for me to stomach.


*Blinks*

*Can't tell if agreement or hatespam. Leaves.*

  • 04.26.2012 6:51 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
*Blinks*

*Can't tell if agreement or hatespam. Leaves.*

The assumption was that you were being sarcastic when you suggested that. Was I being too optimistic in doing that?

  • 04.26.2012 7:21 PM PDT


Posted by: crumpster212
I know humanity wouldnt forget what happend, but still, is ONI that morally lacking as to kill members of the race who didnt even touch some people? (women, children)

Alright...
1. ONI abducted CHILDREN and turned them into soldiers. Sure they weren't sent out to fight into their teens years, but they were child soldiers either way. It was necessary yes, but it doesn't make it right.

2. In today's time there are loads of organizations that lack morals. That is why the world is so -blam!-. It's because the people without morals are the ones with all the power. Now what makes you think humanity will change in the year 2552? Look at what I said about child soldiers above. Now look at Africa today. See a difference between 2012 and 2552? Not really.


Humans. Watcha gonna do?

  • 04.26.2012 7:29 PM PDT

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  • 04.27.2012 2:14 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: ThePredkiller2
*Blinks*

*Can't tell if agreement or hatespam. Leaves.*

The assumption was that you were being sarcastic when you suggested that. Was I being too optimistic in doing that?

No, it just seems like every time you reply to my posts its just to flame me. You follow me around and you flame me, because you don't like me. Goes to show your maturity level and the radius and scope of which your intellectual sphere inundates.

  • 04.29.2012 2:44 PM PDT

-bow chicka brown cow-

Im not being naive, but yeah, parangosky also knows about how the Arbiter actually trusted MC, shouldnt she take that into account too? Yes i know she wouldnt, but its right there in her face. Yes the Elites slaughtered billions of people, but we did the same thing, although maybe not on such a big scale.


But my biggest problem is, does she trust the Arbiter and does she believe that peace with at least his faction is probable

[Edited on 04.29.2012 3:18 PM PDT]

  • 04.29.2012 3:17 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
No, it just seems like every time you reply to my posts its just to flame me. You follow me around and you flame me, because you don't like me. Goes to show your maturity level and the radius and scope of which your intellectual sphere inundates.

If you were being sarcastic then what the hell is this little song and dance all about?

You seem to over-estimate how much I'm actually aware of you as well, and it is not my fault that whatever you have read from me you have done so in an adversarial tone. Try not doing that, because frankly I don't know or care who you are. I have better things to be doing than getting riled up over nameless entities in this place.

  • 04.29.2012 3:27 PM PDT


Posted by: crumpster212
Im not being naive, but yeah, parangosky also knows about how the Arbiter actually trusted MC, shouldnt she take that into account too? Yes i know she wouldnt, but its right there in her face. Yes the Elites slaughtered billions of people, but we did the same thing, although maybe not on such a big scale.


But my biggest problem is, does she trust the Arbiter and does she believe that peace with at least his faction is probable


Probably, but I'd imagine it is the other factions that concerns her more than she trusts the Arbiter, and the UNSC is in no position to fight another full war. So she's tricking the Elites into fighting amongst themselves so none of them can be a threat.

Her trust of the Arbiter only goes so far, and she would rather have no alien allies or enemies either way than 1 Sangheilian Keep and everyone else as an enemy. It would be better to keep them occupied for now.

A possible sacrifice of the Arbiter's alliance, but we would have nobody trying to kill us--if it all goes according to plan, which it won't of course, with it being this early in.

[Edited on 04.29.2012 3:29 PM PDT]

  • 04.29.2012 3:28 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

Because every secret government orginization with lots of resources lacks common sense. ONI could have handled it in a way that strengthens Human/Sangheili relations, like helping Arby put down Telcam's rebellion or lending them supplies so that they can rebuild. They could have supported them in the Sangheili's time of need, proving that Humanity is willing to forgive and make amends. But nooo, we need to kill the aliens.
Posted by: anton1792
Totally. Then we could get more cutscenes like this and scream HUMANS F**K YEAH! Who needs speculative fiction any more; who cares about aspiration, important moral teachings and life experiences, or the emphasis on what could be; screw all that pedantic and soft hearted rubbish. This is Halo 40k, right? I want my Space Marines to kill Xeno scum for the same reason that Battlefield Earth is obviously far better than Star Trek TNG's stories. We could analogize it to the Cold War or something, with the Humans as Capitalists and the Sangheili as Commies, because wars fought never end, right? (Don't pay attention to the fact that 99% of wars that have ever been fought have ended because people got over it, or the bloody 1000 year period of history between France and England. These are just rare exceptions, and France and England are obviously still at war.)

Can't help but feel their is a veiled insult against 40k. Believe it or not, 40k does have morals, they're just buried under a mountain of bolter shells.

  • 04.29.2012 3:31 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Xd00999
Can't help but feel their is a veiled insult against 40k. Believe it or not, 40k does have morals, they're just buried under a mountain of bolter shells.

It wasn't an intentional quip, but it was shoddy wording on my part. The UNSC becoming this tyrannical and xenophobic organization is looming on the horizon, especially with Ancient Humanity being called "Purists", and it's already a pre-requisite of Halo's aliens to have a timeless hatred for Humanity - from Forerunners to Elites. That's what I was throwing back to there. Halo is slowly grafting those themes from 40K into it. 40k is a completely different story with a completely different set of circumstances justifying those themes though. Halo, not so much.

  • 04.29.2012 4:04 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Xd00999
Can't help but feel their is a veiled insult against 40k. Believe it or not, 40k does have morals, they're just buried under a mountain of bolter shells.

It wasn't an intentional quip, but it was shoddy wording on my part. The UNSC becoming this tyrannical and xenophobic organization is looming on the horizon, especially with Ancient Humanity being called "Purists", and it's already a pre-requisite of Halo's aliens to have a timeless hatred for Humanity - from Forerunners to Elites. That's what I was throwing back to there. Halo is slowly grafting those themes from 40K into it. 40k is a completely different story with a completely different set of circumstances justifying those themes though. Halo, not so much.

Agreed. Not everything needs tyranny. Why does UNSC need to be tyrannical and xenophobic in the first place? They had chances to make amends but squandered them trying to ignite rebellion amongst the Sangheilli. Ironically, the only species that does not hold humanity in near complete contempt is the Flood, who viewed us as potential successors to the Mantle.

  • 04.29.2012 4:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: SonicJohn
I believe the real reason is so that 343i has a decent cop-out reason for why we fight Elites and Grunts in Halo 4. I don't actually believe there a decent underlying reason for it; I just believe it's easier to introduce old enemies than to come up with all brand-new ones for the game's introduction and potentially throughout.

This. Anything else is pretty much superfluous.

Cmon man, that is probably the reason, but I would be more surprised if ONI didn't do it.

Intelligence agencies are full of @#$#s, we know that and that won't change.

They always have their input.

And ONI is smart enough to at least manage the Elites. If they did reunite under Telcam or someone similar Humanity would not last long.

It is risky, they could end up hurting themselves, but I imagine this scenario like this to be better than doing nothing. Improving human-sanghelli relations is a no go. They have probably reached their limit, the groups have split into two sides and are unlikely to change.

Or, they could get this worry out of their mind and exterminate the Covenant so they are no longer a threat.

[Edited on 04.30.2012 2:34 AM PDT]

  • 04.30.2012 2:31 AM PDT