Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Did Halo 3 bring closure
  • Subject: Did Halo 3 bring closure
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • of 3
Subject: Did Halo 3 bring closure

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: anton1792
Unfortunately Terminal 7 isn't as simple as that. Begs the question of where John and Cortana went if Bungie intended for Humans and Forerunners to be one and the same.

Bloody hell, I never knew they intended humanity and the Forerunners to be the same. That's absolutely retarded when they sanctioned things like The Cradle of Life and the Terminals which give absolutely no indication towards the races being related. The Librarian discovered humanity in a Tier 7 state, exactly how could they have been related when there wasn't the slightest inclination towards a relationship there?

It's like Mass Effect 3 and the Dark Energy plot, they foreshadow something (Contact Harvest, for example) and it amounts to absolutely nothing. Well, at the very least, Halo replaced that with an infinitely better story.


"There are other forms of intelligence on Earth, Doctor. Only human arrogance would assume the message must be meant for man."
- Spock, Star Trek IV

We all played into that. We saw the Librarian talking about "special denizens" but never stopped once to think about the possibility that she was not talking about Humanity. The thing about IRIS and the terminals is that they do not actually reference Humans explicitly, or at least I recall no direct mention of them. It only refers to some special group on Earth. Naturally, we all automatically assumed that it was Humanity.

What Scarab points out later in that thread is that the pictures that came with the IRIS file text do not have pictures of Humans, but of other forms of life - bacteria, plants and I think some animals. What it was, in the theory anyway, was that the Forerunners stumbled across a world in which they find the resident non-intelligent species having improbable genetic similarities to themselves; a world in which they slot nicely into an evolutionary tree. The plants, animals and other stuff were the special denizens. Essentially, a Human origins story about a lost Earth.

Contact Harvest threw things into disarray when MB called Humanity his "Makers". Given how it was written by Joe Staten, it could not really be handwaved away as a mistake on the writers part. The only other alternative was to say how MB was rampant and had not a clue what he was talking about, which we also used to explain 343 GS calling John a Forerunner. His statement of "Last time you asked me" in Halo: CE can be understood better if it was not a personal statement to John, but a statement towards Humanity in general. "You" as in "All of you; Humanity", which makes sense if there was no significant difference between what is called Humanity and what was called Forerunner. I also remember 343 GS saying that the PoA contained a record of "all our lost time" or something like that as he was scanning the computer consoles.

As I said I don't mind the change as I had assumed that they were different anyway, and the Forerunner trilogy is a good enough story. The only loose thread now that remains unexplained is that comic that you pointed out, which does appear incompatible with the idea.

  • 05.02.2012 3:06 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: anton1792
Unfortunately Terminal 7 isn't as simple as that. Begs the question of where John and Cortana went if Bungie intended for Humans and Forerunners to be one and the same.


Bloody hell, I never knew they intended humanity and the Forerunners to be the same. That's absolutely retarded when they sanctioned things like The Cradle of Life and the Terminals which give absolutely no indication towards the races being related. The Librarian discovered humanity in a Tier 7 state, exactly how could they have been related when there wasn't the slightest inclination towards a relationship there?

It's like Mass Effect 3 and the Dark Energy plot, they foreshadow something (Contact Harvest, for example) and it amounts to absolutely nothing. Well, at the very least, Halo replaced that with an infinitely better story.


Lol, Mass Effect's story is waaaay superior to Halo.

Lol, just...lol.


Sigh... This place would be an awful lot better if you just stopped posting. Nowhere did I state Halo's story was better than Mass Effect's, I said that the way they handled the change in plot was done much better than what they did with Mass Effect 3 because Halo's made sense whilst Bioware got a -blam!-load of controversy over their change they're even having to release DLC to plug the holes they made.

How about you actually read what the post says before commenting?


Posted by: anton1792
"There are other forms of intelligence on Earth, Doctor. Only human arrogance would assume the message must be meant for man."
- Spock, Star Trek IV

We all played into that. We saw the Librarian talking about "special denizens" but never stopped once to think about the possibility that she was not talking about Humanity. The thing about IRIS and the terminals is that they do not actually reference Humans explicitly, or at least I recall no direct mention of them. It only refers to some special group on Earth. Naturally, we all automatically assumed that it was Humanity.

What Scarab points out later in that thread is that the pictures that came with the IRIS file text do not have pictures of Humans, but of other forms of life - bacteria, plants and I think some animals. What it was, in the theory anyway, was that the Forerunners stumbled across a world in which they find the resident non-intelligent species having improbable genetic similarities to themselves; a world in which they slot nicely into an evolutionary tree. The plants, animals and other stuff were the special denizens. Essentially, a Human origins story about a lost Earth.

Contact Harvest threw things into disarray when MB called Humanity his "Makers". Given how it was written by Joe Staten, it could not really be handwaved away as a mistake on the writers part. The only other alternative was to say how MB was rampant and had not a clue what he was talking about, which we also used to explain 343 GS calling John a Forerunner. His statement of "Last time you asked me" in Halo: CE can be understood better if it was not a personal statement to John, but a statement towards Humanity in general. "You" as in "All of you; Humanity", which makes sense if there was no significant difference between what is called Humanity and what was called Forerunner. I also remember 343 GS saying that the PoA contained a record of "all our lost time" or something like that as he was scanning the computer consoles.

As I said I don't mind the change as I had assumed that they were different anyway, and the Forerunner trilogy is a good enough story. The only loose thread now that remains unexplained is that comic that you pointed out, which does appear incompatible with the idea.


The parts with Guilty Spark that you mentioned would have been interesting, however I do not think that the 'special denizens' were anyone other than humanity. For instance, in one of the Terminals:
The anomalous world is in a perilous location beyond the line. The secrets it holds must be preserved, plans within plans within plans. The inhabitants; these unique denizens, must be researched. They may hold answers to our own mysteries. What irony that we discovered this treasure, only at the end of things. But what fortune that we still had time to save them. The thing we built on that world will vouchsafe their lives, but perhaps one day it will be used for its intended purpose. If the plan succeeds, and they are saved, it will be a good world. If the plan fails, and the adversary succeeds, it will remain an enigma forever with no one left to reclaim it.

Evidently, she's referring to the Ark's portal and suggests that it may be "used for its intended purpose" - going to the Ark and firing the Halos, so it seems. There's also the idea of reclamation here, we know that humanity were made Reclaimers by the Forerunners because we are able to use their technology and they aren't. With these two things in mind, I don't think that that theory bore fruit.

It's an interesting idea though.

[Edited on 05.03.2012 5:43 AM PDT]

  • 05.03.2012 5:28 AM PDT


Posted by: TACTIFUL KILL
Some people I've talked to have said that Halo 3 didn't have enough closure to the trilogy that it should of had. Aside from the Legendary Ending, do you think Halo 3 brough closure to the story and characters?


It absolutely did. I thought it had a great ending. Even as we see MC go back to sleep it has closure because it shows that he's not needed anymore.

A lot of people think so long as the protagonist is still alive, there will be a story. But the whole jesus thing doesn't really translate well into video games. case and point: [SPOILER] Mass Effect 3. That's why a lot of people hated the ending. The fact that they kept MC alive at the end of 3 gave more depth to his character and solidified him as the indestructible hero we know and love. It's a bitter sweet ending that made the perfect conclusion to the series.

  • 05.03.2012 8:58 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: ajw34307
Evidently, she's referring to the Ark's portal and suggests that it may be "used for its intended purpose" - going to the Ark and firing the Halos, so it seems. There's also the idea of reclamation here, we know that humanity were made Reclaimers by the Forerunners because we are able to use their technology and they aren't. With these two things in mind, I don't think that that theory bore fruit.

It's an interesting idea though.

I think the Reclaimers thing would have been literal in this case, with the idea that the Forerunners did in fact index themselves along with all the other species, and returned themselves to Earth during the reseeding process. Sort of like how Battlestar Galactica ended where they revert back to a pre-industrial level. Humanity is then literally Reclaiming its former empire and Mantle, with Forerunner technology reacting to Humans exclusively because it is essentially their technology that they themselves created 100'000 years prior.

  • 05.03.2012 9:05 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: Thugzz Deluxxxe

Posted by: TACTIFUL KILL
Some people I've talked to have said that Halo 3 didn't have enough closure to the trilogy that it should of had. Aside from the Legendary Ending, do you think Halo 3 brough closure to the story and characters?


It absolutely did. I thought it had a great ending. Even as we see MC go back to sleep it has closure because it shows that he's not needed anymore.

A lot of people think so long as the protagonist is still alive, there will be a story. But the whole jesus thing doesn't really translate well into video games. case and point: [SPOILER] Mass Effect 3. That's why a lot of people hated the ending. The fact that they kept MC alive at the end of 3 gave more depth to his character and solidified him as the indestructible hero we know and love. It's a bitter sweet ending that made the perfect conclusion to the series.


No, people hated ME3's ending because it:
A) Made no sense.
B) Resulted in your choices amounting to nothing.
C) Was the same thing, just with different colours.
D) Gave no closure on anything except the Reapers.

As for Halo 3 and closure, I'll just repost what I said at the start of the thread:
No, Halo 3 provided absolutely no closure at all. In fact, the entire final mission is just a set-up for Halo 4.

Let's start out with the final Terminal, the first thing we see. Mendicant Bias tells John that he's sending him to the Forerunners as proof of his atonement, this alone sets up the premise for an entire new trilogy and providing the opportunity to delve into the story of the Forerunners.

Then the Gravemind. He somehow manages to survive the destruction of High Charity and begins rebuilding himself on Installation 04B, then when the Ring begins to rip itself apart he says that the destruction of the Ring will not be the end of him - it will merely delay his return.

Then there's the Covenant. We killed Truth and they fragmented, yes. But it's established in the description of the Assembly map that: "The Covenant war machine continues its march to conquest; even with its head severed it is still dangerous" The 'head' clearly refers to Truth and, by extension, the San'Shyuum, who have mysteriously fled to an unknown location. This suggests that the Covenant may be crippled but still has the potential to return - and we know that they do in Halo 4 at the opening of the game.

Then the Flood. Contained on the other Halos, but we don't know exactly what is transpiring on these other Halos. Penitent Tangent went rampant, neglecting his duties and therefore allowing the Flood to escape containment - we've seen how Monitors can become privy to rampancy after so much time alone, therefore the same could well happen on other Halos leading to more Flood outbreaks. And as a result, catastrophic ramifications, as speculated by 343 GS in CEA about what would happen if the Flood took control of a Halo.

Speaking of Halo, there are still 6 other Rings primed and ready to fire. As long as these Rings still exist, that's going to be a shadow constantly looming over the the galaxy.

Also, there's Cortana. What kind of closure would it be if she's just left standing there on the Dawn adrift in space for the rest of eternity? Is that really the ending that she deserves after we went through 3 whole games with her, the latter of which we spent ages trying to rescue her. Would that really be what you call 'closure' and 'satisfactory'?

To sum this all up, Halo 3 left so many loose ends it just wasn't even funny. There was no sense of closure, other than this idea that the story for John had come 'full circle' by sticking him back in cryo to reflect the opening of Halo CE. Yet they still added in the fact that he's been sent to the Forerunners which is a complete contradiction to the closure they were seemingly trying to implement...

Frankly, anyone who says that Halo 3 brought closure to the series is talking a load of twaddle!

  • 05.03.2012 9:50 AM PDT


Posted by: ajw34307

Sigh... This place would be an awful lot better if you just stopped posting. Nowhere did I state Halo's story was better than Mass Effect's, I said that the way they handled the change in plot was done much better than what they did with Mass Effect 3 because Halo's made sense whilst Bioware got a -blam!-load of controversy over their change they're even having to release DLC to plug the holes they made.

How about you actually read what the post says before commenting?



Well, at the very least, Halo replaced that with an infinitely better story.


How's about finding a cure for your acutely malignant illness A.S.A.P.?

Mass Effect is a wonderfully written and detailed interstellar space opera adventure with many beautifully detailed and animated alien civilizations; ripe with in depth character development, drama, action, tragedy, and soldiers who stand defiant against odds infinitely their greater. It is a tale of sacrifice, corruption, extinction, and even horror. Where Halo has taken steps Mass Effect has taken leaps and bounds. Where is Halo in all of this, you ask?

Halo is a product of a military-industrial complex's wet dream. Tearing six year old children away from their lives, forcing them into indoctrination camps and brutal augmentations. It is a tale of an indoctrinated and brainwashed, nigh unstoppable super soldier that would serve his government blindly devout, that seems to have no equal or challenge, its like its just a game for him (oh my!) Fighting retarded little 5 foot aliens and space zombies.

Meanwhile Shepard is uniting a galaxy against a threat that has persisted for millions of years, probably billions, destroying entire civilizations on the levels of the Forerunners and Precursors with little or no struggle, and in the end, the ultimate sacrifice, interstellar space travel, is what it takes.

What does Master Chief do? Blows up a ring or two and then a space station. No challenge there.

[Edited on 05.03.2012 3:03 PM PDT]

  • 05.03.2012 2:55 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: ThePredkiller2

Posted by: ajw34307

Sigh... This place would be an awful lot better if you just stopped posting. Nowhere did I state Halo's story was better than Mass Effect's, I said that the way they handled the change in plot was done much better than what they did with Mass Effect 3 because Halo's made sense whilst Bioware got a -blam!-load of controversy over their change they're even having to release DLC to plug the holes they made.

How about you actually read what the post says before commenting?



Well, at the very least, Halo replaced that with an infinitely better story.


How's about finding a cure for your acutely malignant illness A.S.A.P.?


I suggest you actually reread my post. -_-

I WAS REFERRING TO THE CHANGE IN PLOT - REFERENCING HOW MASS EFFECT 3'S REPLACEMENT FOR THE DARK ENERGY PLOT MADE NO SENSE BUT HALO'S DID WITH THE FORERUNNERS. THEREFORE BEING WELL-DONE AS IT AT LEAST OFFERED A DEEP AND INTERESTING STORY.

What part did you fail to understand? If anyone here has an 'acutely malignant illness', you need look no further than your own reflection...

  • 05.03.2012 3:04 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

yes

  • 05.03.2012 8:09 PM PDT


Posted by: ThePredkiller2


Meanwhile Shepard is uniting a galaxy against a threat that has persisted for millions of years, probably billions, destroying entire civilizations on the levels of the Forerunners and Precursors with little or no struggle,


I don't think you should be trusted anymore.

  • 05.04.2012 12:46 AM PDT
  •  | 
  • Noble Heroic Member

I'm Filipino!

It brought closure to the original trilogy then opened up a whole new opportunity for a new trilogy because of the legendary ending.

  • 05.04.2012 1:03 AM PDT

"violent video games make me murder innocent people the way Monopoly makes me rich"

It gave closure the way Portal 2 did.
Chell survived, was in the middle of nowhere, and was only left with her best friend. (same ending really)
Nobody (That I've met) really questioned it, even though stuff could happen.
So why is it different for the Chief?
Wait, without Legendary Ending?
Why is there doubt at all?
The Chief and Cortana seem to remain a mystery, it's safe to assume they died when the ring fired.
The Covenant had their leader(s). who were the only ones who caused the war to keep going really, killed, so they don't really have a reason to keep trying.
The Flood was (apparently) removed when the ring fired.
An epilogue (in book form) could be written about how humanity recovered after the war, but the games were pretty much over.

  • 05.04.2012 2:47 AM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Halo 3 closed up the trilogy just fine.

Now it's Halo: The never-ending story.

  • 05.04.2012 4:51 AM PDT

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien.
Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar.
tenn' Ambar-metta!

As a Halo game yes. The MasterChief landing into a new planet? Worth for a new different game or not, it could depend, but it hit the spot as "The End" for me.

  • 05.04.2012 9:00 AM PDT

Revielle- A small community with the goals of making a difference for our members. We hope to bring together people of far distances, and many differences, into our community for long lasting friendships and new gaming experiences.

So stop reading and join already or Get Simmonsized!

Halo 3 brought closure to the Halo Trilogy, not the Halo Universe as a whole.

  • 05.04.2012 1:09 PM PDT

Of course not, because I'm not indoctrinated by corporate agenda such as yourselves. Either that or you're all just paid shills out in an attempt to discredit me and make me look stupid.

Long live Microsoft! Amirite?

  • 05.04.2012 1:12 PM PDT

"Halo! Its divine wind will rush through the stars, propelling all who are worthy along the path to salvation."

Yes, yes it did.

  • 05.04.2012 1:14 PM PDT

Posted by: Duardo
I'd love to be a 10 year old and tell my mom I'm going on an adventure out into the world catching Pokemon, with her full support. Never mind the fact that there are rapists, criminals, and murders out there, or the fact that I may get killed by a Pokemon.

Luckily I have Pikachu.

No, Halo 3 had a poorly written story and ignored a lot of event's from Halo 2. Truth's voice actor was changed, the Arbiter being demoted to sidekick instead of playable character also removed a lot from the game.

Then of course the Master Chief was left lost in space, yeah definitely no closure.

[Edited on 05.04.2012 1:49 PM PDT]

  • 05.04.2012 1:46 PM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

Posted by: GrandmasterNinja
No it didn't bring closure, it showed Master Chief floating in space! To a mysterious structure.

Still brought closure. The conflicts of the series were resolved and the characters finished their journeys.

  • 05.04.2012 1:49 PM PDT


Posted by: dahuterschuter
Posted by: GrandmasterNinja
No it didn't bring closure, it showed Master Chief floating in space! To a mysterious structure.

Still brought closure. The conflicts of the series were resolved and the characters finished their journeys.

And that was the legendary ending anyway so it doesn't count.

  • 05.05.2012 11:01 AM PDT

The Tech Game

1,000,000+ Members, and still going strong!

Yes, it brought enough.

  • 05.05.2012 11:16 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: ThePredkiller2

Posted by: dahuterschuter
Posted by: GrandmasterNinja
No it didn't bring closure, it showed Master Chief floating in space! To a mysterious structure.

Still brought closure. The conflicts of the series were resolved and the characters finished their journeys.

And that was the legendary ending anyway so it doesn't count.


The Legendary Ending doesn't need to count, the final Terminal has Mendicant Bias tell John he's sending him to the Forerunners either way. The LE is just a visual of that happening, it's already established to happen - discounting the Legendary Ending for this debate amounts to nothing...

  • 05.05.2012 11:28 AM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Posted by: dahuterschuter
Posted by: GrandmasterNinja
No it didn't bring closure, it showed Master Chief floating in space! To a mysterious structure.

Still brought closure. The conflicts of the series were resolved and the characters finished their journeys.

And that was the legendary ending anyway so it doesn't count.

Even counting the legendary ending.

  • 05.05.2012 1:04 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Honorable Heroic Member

http://www.bungie.net/fanclub/halohaven/Group/GroupHome.aspx

Join Halo Haven! (Group Leader: A 3 Legged Goat)

(To discuss Halo 4.)


Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: anton1792
Unfortunately Terminal 7 isn't as simple as that. Begs the question of where John and Cortana went if Bungie intended for Humans and Forerunners to be one and the same.


Bloody hell, I never knew they intended humanity and the Forerunners to be the same. That's absolutely retarded when they sanctioned things like The Cradle of Life and the Terminals which give absolutely no indication towards the races being related. The Librarian discovered humanity in a Tier 7 state, exactly how could they have been related when there wasn't the slightest inclination towards a relationship there?

It's like Mass Effect 3 and the Dark Energy plot, they foreshadow something (Contact Harvest, for example) and it amounts to absolutely nothing. Well, at the very least, Halo replaced that with an infinitely better story.


Lol, Mass Effect's story is waaaay superior to Halo.

Lol, just...lol.


How exactly do you measure a story's greatness and compare it with others?

Seems to be a lot of fanboys here recently, even though Bioware effectively destroyed ME3 with the ending, and this was coming from the fans.

  • 05.05.2012 2:35 PM PDT


Posted by: Quantam

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: anton1792
Unfortunately Terminal 7 isn't as simple as that. Begs the question of where John and Cortana went if Bungie intended for Humans and Forerunners to be one and the same.


Bloody hell, I never knew they intended humanity and the Forerunners to be the same. That's absolutely retarded when they sanctioned things like The Cradle of Life and the Terminals which give absolutely no indication towards the races being related. The Librarian discovered humanity in a Tier 7 state, exactly how could they have been related when there wasn't the slightest inclination towards a relationship there?

It's like Mass Effect 3 and the Dark Energy plot, they foreshadow something (Contact Harvest, for example) and it amounts to absolutely nothing. Well, at the very least, Halo replaced that with an infinitely better story.


Lol, Mass Effect's story is waaaay superior to Halo.

Lol, just...lol.


How exactly do you measure a story's greatness and compare it with others?

Seems to be a lot of fanboys here recently, even though Bioware effectively destroyed ME3 with the ending, and this was coming from the fans.


It was EA, another big videogame corporation, that destroyed ME3. Now, Treyarch is destroying COD, they're preparing for a Halo takeover. Don't you see? After Halo 4 defeats BO2 Halo will be unrivaled and unchallenged, making it difficult for any other videogame business to get off the ground, resulting in a Halo-centric videogame monopoly through which Microsoft can implement its eugenics propaganda indoctrination, essentially transforming Halo into a propaganda machine. Be aware of heavy New World Order symbolism in Halo 4

Read about it more here: http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=70215547&p ostRepeater1-p=1#70215657

  • 05.05.2012 7:02 PM PDT

  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • of 3