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This topic has moved here: Subject: Imago is garb
  • Subject: Imago is garb
Subject: Imago is garb


Posted by: dhg redemption7
If you push too far out from your base and start controlling the othersie then yes they will spawn behind you.


So you get punished for pushing and map control.

Thanks for proving how terrible dynamic spawns are.

  • 05.05.2012 7:00 PM PDT


Posted by: SKYDROME
OK, con_extreme, you're getting attacked from most sides right now, because you're talking out of your arse. The rest of the guys are angry, but I'm not, so I'm going to try and explain to you why dynamic spawns are bad. Please note that I haven't yet had a cance to play Imago, so I can't talk specifically about that map, but in general, dynamic spawns don't work, and are unpredictable.

When you have static spawns, spawn prediction is normally about controlling your base, and a central area on the map, and then watching how the other team is spawning, and then locking them into a pattern through different spawn points. It's a pretty simple matter, but if you do it wrong, then you often end up screwed. The easiest way to predict spawns is always to find the furthest spawn from the place the enemy last died at, though other things affect this, as I'm sure you know.

Now, in dynamic spawns, this "furthest spawn" thing tends to apply still. The problem is that the game will, I repeat, will randomly decide at one point that the furthest spawn is on the other side of the map, behind you, rather than on the enemies side of the map. You have absolutely no way of knowing when this change is going to occur, which is the problem. Once it occurs, assuming you don't get raped, you can just set up again, facing the other way, but then the spawn switch could happen again.

Basically, while the enemy is spawning on one side, spawn prediction is fine. However, it's impossible to predict when the spawn switch will occur, and this is waht ruins map control on dynamic spawn maps.


no really, the flip is completely predicable, you just need to keep track of what is happening on the map, as long as you keep track of the variables that effect spawning you can predict where they're going to spawn, further more advanced you can set them up in a spawn trap.

the thing is, dynamic spawning punnishes you for trying to control one side of the map, instead you have to control 3/4, instead if pushing hard into where the other team is spawning you kill them and move on, static spawning lets you push into there spawn area and proceede to attack them while they spawn, with dynamic doing this means you've sacrificed map control for spawn killing, it punnishes you for doing so.

static spawning hands spawn trapping to you on a plate, you don't even need to predict where they will spawn, all you have to do is kill them and walk inwards, this causes them to spawn in only one location that can easily be seen, you don't have to know what you're doing to even figure this out, just playing luck a headless chicken will cause the same effect, because it works you end up doing it over and over again, very very little effort is involved.

dynamic just requires you to put in that extra effort, the spawns will flip from just one kill if there are weak zone influences, this how ever is still predictable and can set up in a rotational manner to trap them to only certain points, with weak zones in place the spawns only flip when you push to hard, pushing to hard i mean leaving the control points and pushing into their area, if you didn't push so hard they wouldn't flip and you would have them safely nestled into a spawn trap.

to keep track of things going on just requires communication, callout where the person was when he died to your teammates, callout where you are and going, this information from your entire team comes together to tell you where the other team is going to spawn, then, you call out where they spawned, with each team member keeping track of this information means you can callout where they'll spawn after every kill, this allows you to move in and set up while they're on the respawn screen, what you have done? you've set up a spawn trap, congratulations.

  • 05.05.2012 7:14 PM PDT


Posted by: SatansReverence

Posted by: dhg redemption7
If you push too far out from your base and start controlling the othersie then yes they will spawn behind you.


So you get punished for pushing and map control.

Thanks for proving how terrible dynamic spawns are.


no, you get punnished for abandoning map control and for making stupid decisions.

  • 05.05.2012 7:15 PM PDT


Posted by: con_extreme
the thing is, dynamic spawning punnishes you for trying to control one side of the map, instead you have to control 3/4


Your ignorance of competitive play is amazing. Absolutely amazing.

Please, tell me how you're going to set up and maintain a spawn trap when you need to be spread out over 3/4 of the map?

1 or 2 players on your team won't be able to do anything and the 2 that are trying to do the spawn trap will instantly get over run.

2 players cannot maintain a spawn trap against people who have thumbs.

  • 05.05.2012 7:18 PM PDT


Posted by: SatansReverence

Posted by: con_extreme
the thing is, dynamic spawning punnishes you for trying to control one side of the map, instead you have to control 3/4


Your ignorance of competitive play is amazing. Absolutely amazing.

Please, tell me how you're going to set up and maintain a spawn trap when you need to be spread out over 3/4 of the map?

1 or 2 players on your team won't be able to do anything and the 2 that are trying to do the spawn trap will instantly get over run.

2 players cannot maintain a spawn trap against people who have thumbs.


who said you actually had to be standing there? you don't have to be there to have control over it..

  • 05.05.2012 7:24 PM PDT


Posted by: con_extreme
who said you actually had to be standing there? you don't have to be there to have control over it..


lol...

  • 05.05.2012 7:36 PM PDT

I guess I need to drop the ball on who I am, since I am the person who made the map. Given the time and thought put into spawning I came up with a solution that worked both Dynamically and Statically. I outlined the strategy that prevents people from spawning inside your base and yet you have ignored my advice and continue to rant.

Spawning is static in nature as influences affect how and where you spawn. If you push into THEIR base it creates a high negative influence for those spawns around you in which creates a high positive influence inside YOUR base because it is the other side of the map. Top green and top gold are the neutral spawn areas and if you just controlled those two areas with one player controlling the base then they would never spawn behind you, hence having good map control. This is what a spawn trap should be, not another means to spawn kill.

If you sat inside their base hoping to spawn kill them, your gonna get a big suprise when they are shooting you cross map. So in a sense this makes map control a challenge that only the most skilled team can master. This map is heavily teamwork oriented, no lone-wolf playing on this map. Come up with something to say that actually helps solve the problem instead of just spewing words like "These spawns are too Dynamic" when in actuallity they are semi-Static spawns.

  • 05.05.2012 8:04 PM PDT

Your ignorance of competitive play is amazing. Absolutely amazing.

Please, tell me how you're going to set up and maintain a spawn trap when you need to be spread out over 3/4 of the map?

1 or 2 players on your team won't be able to do anything and the 2 that are trying to do the spawn trap will instantly get over run.

2 players cannot maintain a spawn trap against people who have thumbs


This is also coupled with weapon control, power weapon control then becomes important in this matter to help give you the upper hand in 4 v 2. Also, you can cross map shot from both positions in a pinch. This again reqiures teamwork and the ability to have your teammates be aware of what is happening on the map. 1 person can trade out from gold to assist green as long as someone remains on gold to cross-shot and to provide negative influence upon the spawns on that area.

I find this rather funny because someone completely unrelated to this post was saying how they got spawn trapped hard on Imago. If you don't believe me, read the post by Nooooch yourself: http://www.forgehub.com/forum/reach-competitive-maps/137891-i mago-5.html

My final question is this: Do you honestly expect map control to be given to you? That it will not be met with challenge? There should always be difficulties when controlling a map, MLG maps are built in this way. Food for thought, if you have a REAL reason as to why the map isn't "perfect" then give me one.

[Edited on 05.05.2012 8:35 PM PDT]

  • 05.05.2012 8:17 PM PDT

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Posted by: con_extreme
@goat, yea, i was there, you mean this game right?


Yea good find.

lol Saddo going huuuuuuge

  • 05.05.2012 9:04 PM PDT

Yea good find.

lol Saddo going huuuuuuge


Yup, me with -1. I feel specialz

[Edited on 05.05.2012 9:08 PM PDT]

  • 05.05.2012 9:07 PM PDT

Join Halo Haven for all things related to Halo 4


Tell her that If you jingle my bells, Ill promise you a white Christmas - Call Me Venom
The world can't end next month. My yogurt expires in 2013 - Princess Cadence
If Apple invented a car, would it have windows? - Xxembers

On a serious note guys, there really shouldn't be tension between us. People who can forge should get people who can play really well to test these maps so that when they're ready for MM they aren't exploitable. This means no HLG spots, no holes in boundaries, proper spawning, good performance framerate-wise, and of course good weapon balance.

We gotta market our maps to good testers so that we bring good quality content to Multiplayer. This pact needs to be formed in Halo 4 so that we aren't stuck with playlists full of lousy maps to play on. That ain't fun for anybody.

The custom content community is where Halo's longevity really comes from in this day and age. We gotta do our best to preserve it. So for H4LO I hope to see more outsourcing of maps , as well as an increased understanding of level design, which is a given since we've had much more time to play around with it this time.

  • 05.05.2012 9:17 PM PDT

Garb? Interesting.

  • 05.05.2012 9:28 PM PDT
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  • Intrepid Heroic Member


Posted by: con_extreme

Posted by: Inb4BadassBilly

Posted by: con_extreme
pulse is bad
midas is bad
elull is bad
temple is god damn the worst thing to have ever existed

yet, i know the authors :P

Congratulations, yet I'm good mates with 90% of fellas that have maps in the Grifball playlist, and I know the other 10%.

Out BR'd, lil boy.


it isn't hard to get a grifball map into matchmaking, or even build them, they're just big boxs ..


The thing is though, Grifball is a lot more balanced than most of Reach even if you don't have host

  • 05.05.2012 9:28 PM PDT

thanks and I agree, we do need testers for our maps on a constant basis and to be honest Imago isn't my most brilliant design. I have said that to many that I appealed to gameplay, and while all maps have their exploits in the beginning (yes I saw the HLG vid), we all make mistakes. I knew I made that mistake, and I am human for doing so. I am one mind and not a team of 50.

That mistake was an unintentional soft-kill. I do apologize for that and have made the changes for the next time they do an update.

  • 05.05.2012 9:32 PM PDT


Posted by: A 3 Legged Goat
We gotta market our maps to good testers so that we bring good quality content to Multiplayer. This pact needs to be formed in Halo 4 so that we aren't stuck with playlists full of lousy maps to play on. That ain't fun for anybody.


it would work if the players didn't force there ideals down our throats and tell us what do to, there verbal and written feedback is worthless.

the only way i see it working is if, and only if they provide gameplay footage so we can analyze how they actually played the map to see for our selves what is actually good, bad, needs improved or removed.

  • 05.05.2012 9:33 PM PDT
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  • Intrepid Heroic Member


Posted by: con_extreme
there verbal and written feedback is worthless.


lolwut

  • 05.05.2012 9:42 PM PDT


Posted by: RyanW

Posted by: con_extreme
there verbal and written feedback is worthless.


lolwut


you can't read?

i
said
your
verbal
and
written
feedback
is
worthless.

  • 05.05.2012 9:45 PM PDT

Posted by: con_extreme
it would work if the players didn't force there ideals down our throats and tell us what do to, there verbal and written feedback is worthless.

the only way i see it working is if, and only if they provide gameplay footage so we can analyze how they actually played the map to see for our selves what is actually good, bad, needs improved or removed.
The problem with others providing you videos as feedback is that you simply don't understand Halo very well. You can forge maps, move blocks around and all of that other stuff but when it comes down to actually understanding how maps play at high level you are clueless.

When players who actually understand the game offer criticism you brush it of as "them forcing their ideals on you". No, they just know how to play the game, you don't. Getting a split spawn due to dynamic spawns is bad for gameplay. Sure if I was mindlessly rushing about and just shot at the first thing I saw I probably wouldn't notice the huge advantage dynamic spawns give to people who die a lot, but just because I wouldn't understand it does not mean the problem is not there.

Sorry to be blunt but it's true.

  • 05.05.2012 10:06 PM PDT

Join Halo Haven for all things related to Halo 4


Tell her that If you jingle my bells, Ill promise you a white Christmas - Call Me Venom
The world can't end next month. My yogurt expires in 2013 - Princess Cadence
If Apple invented a car, would it have windows? - Xxembers


Posted by: con_extreme
there verbal and written feedback is worthless.


Whoa now I wouldn't say that. As long as criticism is constructive and directed towards the product/work and not its creator, we can work from there and progress to make it better. However, when people start attacking each other rather than the product and emotions get involved we lose sight of the original intention and nothing gets accomplished.

  • 05.05.2012 10:29 PM PDT
  • gamertag: Meagss
  • user homepage:

I play games for gameplay, not silly gimmicks

H3 MM warrior

Reach S7, 8 and 9 arena warrior.

H4 MM legend

Hey unstoppable.

I beat you twice again today.

Stop iron boosting now.

Also, we beat syphons team on this map today. I thought it was much better than pulse

[Edited on 05.05.2012 10:38 PM PDT]

  • 05.05.2012 10:37 PM PDT


Posted by: aBlueBookshelf
your maps and ideas are worthless because you're terrible at this game.

^this is what i mean goat ... how the hell am i meant to listen if i constantly get told crap like this?

  • 05.05.2012 10:39 PM PDT
  • gamertag: Meagss
  • user homepage:

I play games for gameplay, not silly gimmicks

H3 MM warrior

Reach S7, 8 and 9 arena warrior.

H4 MM legend


Posted by: con_extreme

Posted by: aBlueBookshelf
your maps and ideas are worthless because you're terrible at this game.

^this is what i mean goat ... how the hell am i meant to listen if i constantly get told crap like this?


Dont worry about him. hes an angry colonel, though he does know more about the game than most people on this forum.

Explain to me whats going on, and I will do my best to help you understand whats going on.

  • 05.05.2012 10:41 PM PDT
  • gamertag: Meagss
  • user homepage:

I play games for gameplay, not silly gimmicks

H3 MM warrior

Reach S7, 8 and 9 arena warrior.

H4 MM legend


Posted by: aBlueBookshelf
meegs when were you searching?


A few hours ago.

  • 05.05.2012 10:42 PM PDT