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Subject: How Reach didn't destroy the canon, but fixed it


Posted by: HipiO7
Posted by: ImmortalJoshua
Timeline
Reach is a military planet that is just less heavily defended than Earth.


Uh, yeah no.

Reach was more heavily defended by the time the Covenant attacked than Earth was at this time. After Reach had fallen, in the meeting in Sydney, the UNSC HIGHCOM were talking about Earth's Orbital Defense Grid not coming online until a couple of weeks, I believe.

Reach was much more heavily defended than Earth by it's fall.


But as Lord Hood says, the Fleet that stormed Reach was much larger.

I honestly think Reach takes more -blam!- than it gives. Reach was a beautifully detailed and written game. I honestly felt more connection with Noble Team than any other character in the games.

  • 05.15.2012 10:12 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Reach was a beautifully detailed and written game. I honestly felt more connection with Noble Team than any other character in the games.


First I was like this, then I was like this.

  • 05.15.2012 10:40 AM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

By this point I've stopped caring. It was a retcon, get over it. Things are retconned all the time. Reach is not a special case.

  • 05.15.2012 12:50 PM PDT


Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Reach was a beautifully detailed and written game. I honestly felt more connection with Noble Team than any other character in the games.


First I was like this, then I was like this.


I don't care what you were 'like'. Its my opinion and I'm sticking by it. If you have a problem with that, then you have some growing up to do kid.

  • 05.15.2012 1:38 PM PDT

Vengeance only leads to an ongoing cycle of hatred.


Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Reach was a beautifully detailed and written game. I honestly felt more connection with Noble Team than any other character in the games.


First I was like this, then I was like this.

  • 05.15.2012 2:13 PM PDT

In memory of those fallen in the defense of Earth and her colonies.

March 3, 2553


Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: Sandtrap
You know what? I don't even have the strength to argue anymore. Fine. Good job or something.

Haha, I'm with you on this one. It's 1am here. All I have to say is I like the positive spin you have on this.

  • 05.15.2012 3:04 PM PDT

XxXD3LuuX3 X luuC1d17YXxX


Posted by: S2 Black 0ut
People are still defending Reach? lolwut

  • 05.15.2012 5:57 PM PDT


Posted by: Sandtrap
You know what? I don't even have the strength to argue anymore. Fine. Good job or something.


I agree. I can argue with everything he said, but I really just do not want to do it anymore.

  • 05.15.2012 10:18 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

I am tired of arguing too. Tell you what Reach haters, why don't we agree to disagree and leave Reach as an ok game? it wasn't great but it wasn't bad either, that way neither of us is right nor wrong.

  • 05.15.2012 10:41 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Honestly, 343 made things a bit worse with the Data Drops. I like Reach and all, but if they just would've followed what Bungie did with the note saying the events we see in Reach are a reconstruction by ONI, it would've been fine.

Didn't the last data drop hint at that?

  • 05.15.2012 10:46 PM PDT

Waypoint Moderators aren't really Moderators, just power hungry and its goal is defend their beloved Halo at all costs. (Meaning that they wank Halo too much.)

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Posted by: ThePredkiller2

I honestly think Reach takes more -blam!- than it gives. Reach was a beautifully detailed and written game. I honestly felt more connection with Noble Team than any other character in the games.


Says by someone who is horribly misinformed in Halo lore...

And one more thing for you:

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

  • 05.15.2012 10:56 PM PDT
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Posted by: ThePredkiller2

I honestly think Reach takes more -blam!- than it gives. Reach was a beautifully detailed and written game.
It's good is overshadowed by it's bad. Though that good isn't even that innovating. Elites shooting while doing evasive maneuvers, crouching when unshielded and being fired upon, Elites throwing grenades, Grunts overcharging plasma pistols, troopers throwing grenades from cover, this is all basic stuff that could have been done in CE but wasn't for balancing or because it wasn't necessary.

Halo has introduced a lot of stupid things. Crate climbing, friendly AI driving, AI taking cover against walls, AI using bubble shield and armor lock, etc. These have only made AI look ridiculous and slowed down gameplay. CE's AI didn't have any of that yet with their basic leaps and dives, were able to do most of those things/carry out those functions without wasting time and without making gameplay uninteresting.

Reach did more dumbing down than improving:

Campaign - CoD with a little Halo. Little to none replayability when cinematics are taking up much of the action and Noble Team, no wait, op Pelican turrets manage to kill everything for you.
Firefight - arcade shooter
Theater - 1 player

Forge was the only mode that received a lot of attention but the mp made the mistake of using campaign maps. And throwing in 10 second countdowns even though there are already invisible barriers and kill boundaries.

The main problem with Reach imo: JETPACK. It's just like dual wielding. A lot of the weapons in H2 and H3 were -blam!- up for one single mechanic. Likewise, a lot of maps in Reach suffered because of it. If I could at least get to higher points in campaign missions, my experience on LNoS wouldn't have been so agonizing. I spent hours in Reach and got nothing to show for it, other than a blockade at the beach, which is only 1% map usage compared to what one can do on AotCR and Sierra 117, where there were plenty of checkpoints. LNoS' mission start only has 4-5 checkpoints and almost all of these are inevitable. There is only one checkpoint you can save for later but if you want to get out of the map, you have to go get it to get the drop shield...

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
I honestly felt more connection with Noble Team than any other character in the games.
First person cutscenes were at first interesting. ODST brought them to the table. But it died out really quickly after replaying missions a dozen times.

Furthermore, Reach's first person cutscenes were completely immersion breaking. How can the cutscene Noble Six take so many shots in his last moments and fend off a Zealot in cqc while the player controlled Noble Six can't even handle several Elite minors? Very inconsistent.

[Edited on 05.15.2012 11:22 PM PDT]

  • 05.15.2012 11:15 PM PDT

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@Sliding Ghost.

The Campaign has alot more replaybility going for it then Halo 3 did.

Firefight is firefight, we just are spoiled by the changes made to confisate for newer players or to speed up faster games. Take away the infinite lives and the power weapons that you get from picking a class, and play firefight the classic way. The way it was in ODST (minus the badass visor).

Theater mode being 1 person viewing is fine, not alot of people used 4 player viewing in theater mode in Halo 3, and I don't think its even really needed becuase we have File Sharing and the File Browser and recommendations.

From what I've heard about the maps, there were modeled/made for multiplayer purposes then included into the campaign. Don't know if it makes them any better or much worse.

I personally think armor abilites was such a change in this game that is actually hurt it more then it helped it.

Furthermore, Reach's first person cutscenes were completely immersion breaking. How can the cutscene Noble Six take so many shots in his last moments and fend off a Zealot in cqc while the player controlled Noble Six can't even handle several Elite minors? Very inconsistent.


Maybe a person who hasn't played the game long might not be able to hand Elite minors, but for people who've played throught the campaign of Halo Reach and other Halo games, elite minors are the least of their problems.

The last cutscenes just shows the last moments of a spartan, your spartan, you in your last momemts on a planet you fought and sacrificed for.

I enjoyed the campaign because I, as a player, felt a connection with Noble Team, I was the new guy and it showed, but the team grew to appreciate me and I appreciated them. I'd be lying if I didn't feel sad when Jorge sacrficed himself, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't shocked when Kat got shot in the head. I'd be lying if I said I didn't respect Carter after all he's done for Noble Team. I'd be lying if I didn't think Emile was hands down one of the most badass Spartan who ever fought against a Sanghelli.

I felt more connected to the characters of Noble Team, more so then I did with the Master Chief, Cortana, Sergent Johnson, Miranda Keyes/Halsey, Captain Keyes, or the Arbiter.

I'm not saying Halo Reach is the best Halo campaign I played. Halo 2 takes the cake for that. I just believe that Halo Reach's campaign is awesome.

  • 05.16.2012 2:09 AM PDT


Posted by: ElementL09
@Sliding Ghost.

The Campaign has alot more replaybility going for it then Halo 3 did.

Firefight is firefight, we just are spoiled by the changes made to confisate for newer players or to speed up faster games. Take away the infinite lives and the power weapons that you get from picking a class, and play firefight the classic way. The way it was in ODST (minus the badass visor).

Theater mode being 1 person viewing is fine, not alot of people used 4 player viewing in theater mode in Halo 3, and I don't think its even really needed becuase we have File Sharing and the File Browser and recommendations.

From what I've heard about the maps, there were modeled/made for multiplayer purposes then included into the campaign. Don't know if it makes them any better or much worse.

I personally think armor abilites was such a change in this game that is actually hurt it more then it helped it.

Furthermore, Reach's first person cutscenes were completely immersion breaking. How can the cutscene Noble Six take so many shots in his last moments and fend off a Zealot in cqc while the player controlled Noble Six can't even handle several Elite minors? Very inconsistent.


Maybe a person who hasn't played the game long might not be able to hand Elite minors, but for people who've played throught the campaign of Halo Reach and other Halo games, elite minors are the least of their problems.

The last cutscenes just shows the last moments of a spartan, your spartan, you in your last momemts on a planet you fought and sacrificed for.

I enjoyed the campaign because I, as a player, felt a connection with Noble Team, I was the new guy and it showed, but the team grew to appreciate me and I appreciated them. I'd be lying if I didn't feel sad when Jorge sacrficed himself, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't shocked when Kat got shot in the head. I'd be lying if I said I didn't respect Carter after all he's done for Noble Team. I'd be lying if I didn't think Emile was hands down one of the most badass Spartan who ever fought against a Sanghelli.

I felt more connected to the characters of Noble Team, more so then I did with the Master Chief, Cortana, Sergent Johnson, Miranda Keyes/Halsey, Captain Keyes, or the Arbiter.

I'm not saying Halo Reach is the best Halo campaign I played. Halo 2 takes the cake for that. I just believe that Halo Reach's campaign is awesome.


Agreed! I think 343i actually took lessons from Bungie when creating Spartan Ops. To allow your spartan "you" a chance to participate in the Halo storyline through custom armor variants. I really think Halo 4 might live up to Reach's campaign re-playability. I really do.

  • 05.16.2012 1:27 PM PDT
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Posted by: ElementL09
@Sliding Ghost.

The Campaign has alot more replaybility going for it then Halo 3 did.

Firefight is firefight, we just are spoiled by the changes made to confisate for newer players or to speed up faster games. Take away the infinite lives and the power weapons that you get from picking a class, and play firefight the classic way. The way it was in ODST (minus the badass visor).

Theater mode being 1 person viewing is fine, not alot of people used 4 player viewing in theater mode in Halo 3, and I don't think its even really needed becuase we have File Sharing and the File Browser and recommendations.

From what I've heard about the maps, there were modeled/made for multiplayer purposes then included into the campaign. Don't know if it makes them any better or much worse.

I personally think armor abilites was such a change in this game that is actually hurt it more then it helped it.
That's fair I guess.

It's still not the same as ODST's.

Yeah I know. I was just pointing out a problem. I don't have a Xbox 360 hard drive or online friends so I'm not complaining.

Eh?

Perhaps. Armor abilities are not the focus of my complaint really. I just don't like how they're central to the game, like dual wielding was. I.e. Spartans slowed down for sprint.

As you can guess, I'm not a big H2/H3 fan. The work I do in them is constantly impeded. But with Reach, there isn't much support for that kind of activity rather than anything actually getting in the way. The lack of checkpoints means setup work in the beach on LNoS is in vain.

Posted by: ElementL09
Furthermore, Reach's first person cutscenes were completely immersion breaking. How can the cutscene Noble Six take so many shots in his last moments and fend off a Zealot in cqc while the player controlled Noble Six can't even handle several Elite minors? Very inconsistent.


Maybe a person who hasn't played the game long might not be able to hand Elite minors, but for people who've played throught the campaign of Halo Reach and other Halo games, elite minors are the least of their problems.
I've played it for several months and they've, along with majors, given me more trouble than Ultras. In fact, I appreciate Ultra Elites much more.

[Edited on 05.16.2012 2:40 PM PDT]

  • 05.16.2012 2:38 PM PDT

Posted by: AngryBrute1
Oh yeah, since somebody does not believe what YOU believe; that makes us vapid...
I cannot grasp that what you call "Something happened to nothing, and that nothing became something, and it was smaller than than a period."

Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: Avatar Korra
The Pillar of Autumn can't go in atmosphere. If it does then it's stuck in atmosphere. Explain that.


The fact that the Pillar of Autumn has an emergency landing sequence proves that Halcyon Cruisers can be in atmosphere.

  • 05.16.2012 4:20 PM PDT


Posted by: Wikked Navajoe
Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: Avatar Korra
The Pillar of Autumn can't go in atmosphere. If it does then it's stuck in atmosphere. Explain that.


The fact that the Pillar of Autumn has an emergency landing sequence proves that Halcyon Cruisers can be in atmosphere.


Key word being emrgency, as in "oh god oh god we're all gonna die." If the emergency sequence follows through, the ship won't get back up.

  • 05.16.2012 5:40 PM PDT


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Wikked Navajoe
Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: Avatar Korra
The Pillar of Autumn can't go in atmosphere. If it does then it's stuck in atmosphere. Explain that.


The fact that the Pillar of Autumn has an emergency landing sequence proves that Halcyon Cruisers can be in atmosphere.


Key word being emrgency, as in "oh god oh god we're all gonna die." If the emergency sequence follows through, the ship won't get back up.


It did have those thrusters attached to it, maybe it was outfitted with some of those to land it in dry dock?

  • 05.16.2012 5:49 PM PDT


Posted by: DonVinzone1
No, like I've said many times before: the Halsey Journal package makes perfectly clear that the game (Reach) is an attempt by ONI to recreate what happened to Noble Team.

In other words: what we played is not the real deal. We played an interpretation of the actual events based upon found footage from security cams, some recovered data, maybe eye witness reports.

And that explains the many collisions between the game and the events as they were (Fall of Reach, which really didn't go in as much detail on the ground ops as most people make the book out to do).

In other words: Reach and the Fall of Reach don't as much contradict each other, but supplement each other (Reach being more about the ground battle, and some elements we didn't know before as shown in the ONI Files. Fall of Reach covering the space battle) and in a lot of instances can exist next to each other with the knowledge that the game we've played might not be 100% accurate.

I really keep on being suprised how even the most hardcore fans seem to continue to read over that all important sentence in the letters coming with Halseys Journal. Because with that 1 little sentence, Bungie and Nylund made sure they'd have more freedom within the game and still have it fit canonically within the existing universe.


Is there a place I can read the full journal online?

  • 05.16.2012 6:43 PM PDT
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Posted by: Avatar Korra
The Pillar of Autumn can't go in atmosphere. If it does then it's stuck in atmosphere. Explain that.

Just like a spaceship huh?

  • 05.16.2012 6:55 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: ThePredkiller2

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Reach was a beautifully detailed and written game. I honestly felt more connection with Noble Team than any other character in the games.


First I was like this, then I was like this.


I don't care what you were 'like'. Its my opinion and I'm sticking by it. If you have a problem with that, then you have some growing up to do kid.


I'm not sure what you're more saturated with - pure comedy value or sheer retardation. Then you go and make it personal by telling me to "grow up" and calling me a "kid", wow. I can so take you seriously right now!

Tell me one thing. How were Noble Team so beautifully crafted as, as you say? How were they better than the ODST squad, Thel, Cortana or even that Grunt at the end of Halo 3 that pokes fun at you? At no point in Reach was there any significant character development, each and every character was just a generic archetype for something-or-other that ultimately had no effect on the story nor the people around them.

How can you tell yourself that these were 'human' characters when they were just so horribly sterile and one-dimensional? There's no personal attachment, just misguided delusions about Noble Team as 'good' characters.

Look at Thel. He's the unseen antagonist of Halo CE, our actions as the player in the first game are reflected immediately through his point of view from the get-go in Halo 2. We then follow him through a story of redemption and honour (being 'reborn' as the Arbiter), betrayal (the conflict with Sesa 'Refumee and the betrayal of the Prophets), loss (the murder of the High Council) and then he allies with humanity in a joint cause. We're with him this whole journey where we see the character evolve from the trypical presentation of a Sangheili to someone we grow attached to and call an ally.

Where's this kind of storytelling in Reach? You just fight the Covenant, your only objective is finding what to blow up next. Then there's that BS with Cortana and the Autumn but it amounts to nothing in terms of character development. Why didn't Bungie utilise their strengths from ODST's storytelling with some flashbacks to Spartan training on Onyx building up Noble Six as an actual character (like the Arbiter)? I was never given a reason to care about Six, or any of Noble Team at that. The only information we got about Six was that he's a "hyper-lethal vector" and was involved in some Sabre programme or other which was important for like 10 minutes. We don't see how the war has affected him, how he felt when his brothers and sisters went off to fight in Operation TORPEDO which he was pulled out of and how he should be closer to characters like Kat because she was in the same company he was - but no, it's just sterile dialogue about fighting more aliens.

So yes, your opinion is horribly misplaced to say that Noble Team are the most detailed characters in the games.

  • 05.17.2012 5:17 AM PDT

Vengeance only leads to an ongoing cycle of hatred.


Posted by: ajw34307
I don't think anybody can say it better...

[Edited on 05.17.2012 7:23 AM PDT]

  • 05.17.2012 7:23 AM PDT

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Posted by: Sandtrap
You know what? I don't even have the strength to argue anymore. Fine. Good job or something.


I totally agree with this, this thread just makes me believe the OP didn't read all the books or failed to understand the story.

Noble team's campaign is so tiny and miniscule in comparison to the whole battle of Reach. Also Reach is to my knowledge after reading ALL the books, the most fortified UNSC planet, it is also know as a fortress planet. Even the Master Chief states that Reach is so well armed and fortified that it would be nearly impossible for the Covenant to take it down with out a good fight. (Which unfortunately didn't happen like that.)

If you've read all books, you have to take account that is described or told several times, most of the colonys and battles were lost with a force of 4 to 6 Covenant warships in the process, whereas Reach faced 300 Covenant warships. (Or later changed by 343 to 700 warships, which I will never take that into canon personally) The invasion was an overkill tactical manuever, the MAC guns was the only thing that really stood against the Covenant, there is why so many Spartans-II died defending the Orbital Generators.

This brings to the point if PoA could land inside Reach, why the bother of risking and sacrificing Spartans-II in a freefall and under heavy attack in a insertion. The game in this case shouldn't have been called Halo: Reach, more like Halo: Noble Team or something, the story of Noble team hardly focused the story of Reach, which was way more bigger than Noble's campaign.

[Edited on 05.17.2012 9:36 AM PDT]

  • 05.17.2012 9:30 AM PDT
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Posted by: ajw34307

Look at Thel. He's the unseen antagonist of Halo CE, our actions as the player in the first game are reflected immediately through his point of view from the get-go in Halo 2. We then follow him through a story of redemption and honour (being 'reborn' as the Arbiter), betrayal (the conflict with Sesa 'Refumee and the betrayal of the Prophets), loss (the murder of the High Council) and then he allies with humanity in a joint cause. We're with him this whole journey where we see the character evolve from the trypical presentation of a Sangheili to someone we grow attached to and call an ally.
You can apply the same logic to Noble team. At no point in Halo 2 or 3 is Thel 'Vadam actually fleshed out as a character. Things happen to and around him, but at no point do we actually discover a real, internal change has occurred. We don't find out why he fights. We don't learn how all of this affects him emotionally. Is he conflicted about fighting with Humans? About fighting AGAINST them before that? What's his mind when he's fighting the Heretics? Apart from the whole "angry about betrayal and murder" thing, we don't even know how he feels about the Brutes. At all. Is he pissed they're in the Covenant? Does he recognize the importance of their sheer brute (no pun intended) force in the present military contest? We NEVER find out.

The same can be said of almost any character in the WHOLE freaking series. Other than the obvious, immediate motivating factors for their actions, only two characters EVER expound upon their motivations and machinations for behaving as they behave: The Gravemind and Mendicant Bias. They are the ONLY two characters who, by your own estimation, are REAL. Everyone else is a fulfillment of an archetype or a situational necessity, at best. Other than the whole "Aliens gon' kill my peeps!" thing, what's Chief's motivation? Does he even know his motivation? Johnson? Cortana? The Master Chief isn't a character, he's pure, tropey hero. Cortana's a witty sidekick in your ear constantly. For God's sake, even when she's been put through the ringer by the Gravemind we don't find out jack. What's in her head now that a hundred thousand year old monster's taken a crack at it? Do you know? I sure as hell don't. None of these characters are fleshed out, they've just had a lot of significant things happen to them. We don't know whether Thel even gives two -blam!-s about his public shaming ceremony, we just know that it seems tragic given the atmosphere. The Halo saga, every damn inch of it, is event driven, not character driven.

Name a single thing in the entire series that happened because John (THE MAIN CHARACTER IN THE SERIES!) made a meaningful, personal decision. Even when he rescues Cortana it's a matter of convenience and necessity. It's not like he commandeered a ship and went halfway across the galaxy to pluck her from the Gravemind's clutches. He needs her, and not (insofar as we're informed) in any meaningful or personal way. She's a tool, a talking wrench, and she knows too much for the Gravemind to be allowed to have her. If the Chief had been ordered not to get her, to let her be destroyed while he went off and did another important round of "blow -blam!- up," and he DEFIED orders to save her? THAT would be character development. It would show that he's not a pure, robotic soldier, but that he's somehow developed a real attachment to this pseudo-personality.

By your same logic, we could say that Reach is a tragedy on par with Shakespeare. The best of the best, slowly falling to an inexorable end they didn't see coming, though the audience knew from the outset that they were all doomed. And most of them are certainly a LITTLE more fleshed out than John is. Jorge still reveres Halsey despite what was done to him as a child, and loves Reach enough to sacrifice his extremely valuable life for it. Jun is distant and defiant, a quirk unexpected in a multi-billion dollar super-soldier. Kat is a passive-aggressive -blam!- who sticks her nose where it doesn't belong; again, a weird quirk in a super-soldier. And Emile is just straight up bat-blam!- crazy. More than a weird quirk; if he hadn't died on Reach, Emile would probably have ended up being bad news bears for somebody, and smart money's on that somebody being a human. The only way Noble team is a cookie-cutter group of characters is if you -blam!- up cookies so often that you think weird cookies are normal and normal cookies are a gift from God. They're not the most fleshed out characters in the series, to be sure, and they're certainly not the most fleshed out characters in the Universe. By literary standards, they're positively sterile. But they kick the ever-loving hell out of Mr. One-liner McGreenshirt and his partner Sir Splitface Shinyhat in terms of character development.

  • 05.17.2012 9:47 AM PDT


Posted by: S_034

Posted by: ajw34307

Look at Thel. He's the unseen antagonist of Halo CE, our actions as the player in the first game are reflected immediately through his point of view from the get-go in Halo 2. We then follow him through a story of redemption and honour (being 'reborn' as the Arbiter), betrayal (the conflict with Sesa 'Refumee and the betrayal of the Prophets), loss (the murder of the High Council) and then he allies with humanity in a joint cause. We're with him this whole journey where we see the character evolve from the trypical presentation of a Sangheili to someone we grow attached to and call an ally.
You can apply the same logic to Noble team. At no point in Halo 2 or 3 is Thel 'Vadam actually fleshed out as a character. Things happen to and around him, but at no point do we actually discover a real, internal change has occurred. We don't find out why he fights. We don't learn how all of this affects him emotionally. Is he conflicted about fighting with Humans? About fighting AGAINST them before that? What's his mind when he's fighting the Heretics? Apart from the whole "angry about betrayal and murder" thing, we don't even know how he feels about the Brutes. At all. Is he pissed they're in the Covenant? Does he recognize the importance of their sheer brute (no pun intended) force in the present military contest? We NEVER find out.

The same can be said of almost any character in the WHOLE freaking series. Other than the obvious, immediate motivating factors for their actions, only two characters EVER expound upon their motivations and machinations for behaving as they behave: The Gravemind and Mendicant Bias. They are the ONLY two characters who, by your own estimation, are REAL. Everyone else is a fulfillment of an archetype or a situational necessity, at best. Other than the whole "Aliens gon' kill my peeps!" thing, what's Chief's motivation? Does he even know his motivation? Johnson? Cortana? The Master Chief isn't a character, he's pure, tropey hero. Cortana's a witty sidekick in your ear constantly. For God's sake, even when she's been put through the ringer by the Gravemind we don't find out jack. What's in her head now that a hundred thousand year old monster's taken a crack at it? Do you know? I sure as hell don't. None of these characters are fleshed out, they've just had a lot of significant things happen to them. We don't know whether Thel even gives two -blam!-s about his public shaming ceremony, we just know that it seems tragic given the atmosphere. The Halo saga, every damn inch of it, is event driven, not character driven.

Name a single thing in the entire series that happened because John (THE MAIN CHARACTER IN THE SERIES!) made a meaningful, personal decision. Even when he rescues Cortana it's a matter of convenience and necessity. It's not like he commandeered a ship and went halfway across the galaxy to pluck her from the Gravemind's clutches. He needs her, and not (insofar as we're informed) in any meaningful or personal way. She's a tool, a talking wrench, and she knows too much for the Gravemind to be allowed to have her. If the Chief had been ordered not to get her, to let her be destroyed while he went off and did another important round of "blow -blam!- up," and he DEFIED orders to save her? THAT would be character development. It would show that he's not a pure, robotic soldier, but that he's somehow developed a real attachment to this pseudo-personality.

By your same logic, we could say that Reach is a tragedy on par with Shakespeare. The best of the best, slowly falling to an inexorable end they didn't see coming, though the audience knew from the outset that they were all doomed. And most of them are certainly a LITTLE more fleshed out than John is. Jorge still reveres Halsey despite what was done to him as a child, and loves Reach enough to sacrifice his extremely valuable life for it. Jun is distant and defiant, a quirk unexpected in a multi-billion dollar super-soldier. Kat is a passive-aggressive -blam!- who sticks her nose where it doesn't belong; again, a weird quirk in a super-soldier. And Emile is just straight up bat-blam!- crazy. More than a weird quirk; if he hadn't died on Reach, Emile would probably have ended up being bad news bears for somebody, and smart money's on that somebody being a human. The only way Noble team is a cookie-cutter group of characters is if you -blam!- up cookies so often that you think weird cookies are normal and normal cookies are a gift from God. They're not the most fleshed out characters in the series, to be sure, and they're certainly not the most fleshed out characters in the Universe. By literary standards, they're positively sterile. But they kick the ever-loving hell out of Mr. One-liner McGreenshirt and his partner Sir Splitface Shinyhat in terms of character development.


Do you see, AJW? You're confusing opinion with fact. As this fine gentleman has so finely pointed out, you can come with a perfectly legit argument for either point of view. But you are so overcome with immaturity and arrogance that you will not budge. You're so goddamn stubborn no matter how finely we argue our points and reasons for liking Reach and having a different opinion than you, you are so biased and so elitist that you refuse to see past the fact that you are so overcome and engraved in your close-minded way of thinking that you probably will not even read these posts and continue to argue your same point (that you so arrogantly claim claim we're "wrong" and that your "opinion" is right and that the only reason someone would disagree with you is if they were "retarded". I mean, how much more -blam!- egotistical and self centered can one person be?)

People are going to have separate opinions than you, AJW. And they are going to have a -blam!- argument, best you start -blam!- dealing with it.

  • 05.17.2012 2:09 PM PDT

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