Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: How Reach didn't destroy the canon, but fixed it
  • Subject: How Reach didn't destroy the canon, but fixed it
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • of 4
Subject: How Reach didn't destroy the canon, but fixed it


This is for you SEAL Sniper, AJW, and all other Reach-haters on this thread.

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
I am tired of arguing too. Tell you what Reach haters, why don't we agree to disagree and leave Reach as an ok game? it wasn't great but it wasn't bad either, that way neither of us is right nor wrong.


  • 05.17.2012 2:12 PM PDT

In memory of those fallen in the defense of Earth and her colonies.

March 3, 2553


Posted by: Sliding Ghost
Reach didn't destroy canon. It destroyed combat.

LNoS' mission start doesn't have much replayability. It's mostly sightseeing. The infinitely spawning waves are only good for Cr or for their weapons (rocket launcher, sniper rifle, concussion rifle).


No it literally destroyed everything that is Halo.

  • 05.17.2012 2:30 PM PDT

Questions lead to learning, learning leads to kowledge, knowledge leads to understanding, understanding leads to peace.



"I would kill to get a killionaire... 10 times... digitally."


Posted by: Avatar Korra
The Pillar of Autumn can't go in atmosphere. If it does then it's stuck in atmosphere. Explain that.


You'll notice that it has extra rocket boosters to help it lift off. Explained!!!

  • 05.17.2012 2:42 PM PDT


Posted by: cameo_cream

Posted by: Sliding Ghost
Reach didn't destroy canon. It destroyed combat.

LNoS' mission start doesn't have much replayability. It's mostly sightseeing. The infinitely spawning waves are only good for Cr or for their weapons (rocket launcher, sniper rifle, concussion rifle).


No it literally destroyed everything that is Halo.


And Mt. Everest is the biggest thing in existence.

Hyperbole is fun!

  • 05.17.2012 2:43 PM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

To be honest, this has gotten out of hand [Much like any Reach thread, mind you.]

If you like Reach then that's okay, you can view canon however you like. Yes, there is a core canon that is not up for intepretation but not everyone is orthodox and willing to accept everything Bungie or anyone else has put in.

I will say this though, well most [From my experience in B.net] knowledgeable fans initial reception, tend not to like Halo:Reach's story due to a number of conflicts and changes however big or minor.

Posted by: ThePredkiller2

You going at AJW personally is petty. He's one of the few people in BU who actually knows what he's talking about with explicit detail and he's been posting quality posts here for a significant amount of time. He stated, with examples to support his interpretation, his comparison. Which might I add was just. All you seem to do in this board is incite arguements. You have no real contribution to anything and you quote people to support a counter-arguement because you can't say it yourself.

"you are so overcome with immaturity and arrogance that you will not budge."
Have a look in the mirror please.

  • 05.17.2012 2:49 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

Really, can we just let this thread die? No one is going to change their opinion any time soon regardless of what anyone else says. We are just wasting our breath. I was upset about some of the retcons too, but at least we didn't get Highlander 2.

  • 05.17.2012 5:15 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

The only way to win a debate is to maintain calmness while presenting your opinion. The opinion might not be accepted but it's better to be calm than to be raging over a petty issue.

I admit that I often lose my cool on here which is why I spend some time off...

  • 05.17.2012 5:31 PM PDT

The bible is the best book Ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I AM A PROUD CHRISTIAN. HALO IS AWESOME BUT GOD IS MUCH BETTER!!!!!!!!
Did you knew that JESUSdied for you?

I agree wtih OP

Novels ar just quick cash-ins for fanboys.

[Edited on 05.17.2012 6:45 PM PDT]

  • 05.17.2012 6:44 PM PDT

Hanger one I just shredded with the SMGs until ammo was out and I just threw 'nades like a boss while BRing.

My experience playing Cairo Station on Legendary

I was expecting to have argument, but I can't really argue too much with your points. However, I disagree with the implementation of these. If Bungie did intend on them being hole fillers, they could of developed further.

  • 05.17.2012 8:47 PM PDT

“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein

What are you talking about? The books ARE canon.

  • 05.17.2012 9:53 PM PDT

“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein

Not really they are New York Times best-sellers and great science fiction novels. I know plenty of people who have never played the game but still read the novels.

  • 05.17.2012 9:54 PM PDT

I like the fact you highlighted this but it's a bit old. I just think that I'm glad Bungie made a game they were happy with...and then left it so they didn't "upset the established order". Anyway I feel Game > Canon, Halo is a game, a sweet ass graphic novel series, but still a game. You make movies of books or to supplement them, not to replace them.

  • 05.18.2012 8:35 AM PDT
  • gamertag: S034
  • user homepage:

Gettin' all Herodotean up in here!


Posted by: ThePredkiller2

Do you see, AJW? You're confusing opinion with fact. As this fine gentleman has so finely pointed out, you can come with a perfectly legit argument for either point of view. But you are so overcome with immaturity and arrogance that you will not budge. You're so goddamn stubborn no matter how finely we argue our points and reasons for liking Reach and having a different opinion than you, you are so biased and so elitist that you refuse to see past the fact that you are so overcome and engraved in your close-minded way of thinking that you probably will not even read these posts and continue to argue your same point (that you so arrogantly claim claim we're "wrong" and that your "opinion" is right and that the only reason someone would disagree with you is if they were "retarded". I mean, how much more -blam!- egotistical and self centered can one person be?)

People are going to have separate opinions than you, AJW. And they are going to have a -blam!- argument, best you start -blam!- dealing with it.


Don't do that, Pred. AJW hasn't suggested that others aren't entitled to their opinion. He was arguing that Reach did a poorer job than other Halo games of building characters. To a certain extent, I agree; ODST, I feel, did the best job of all the Halo games in creating real characters one can identify with. But that's beside my point.

He was arguing something. You'll notice that I made no comment regarding him as a person, I only countered his argument regarding character development in Reach in comparison to other Halo games. I, in fact, hope that he does come back and defend his argument with everything he's got. I don't take offense to attacks against my arguments; not only do I anticipate this, I WANT it.

What I do take offense to is EXACTLY what you're doing. Don't leverage my attack on his ARGUMENT in your attack directed at his PERSON. He was attacking you because you ATTACKED HIM for derisively dismissing your opinion, but YOU proffered no support for said opinion when you expounded it in the first place. An unsupported opinion can be, should be, derisively dismissed, because an unsupported opinion is absolutely worthless to anyone besides the person who holds said opinion.

I have a great deal of respect for AJW, as I do for most of the Mythics and Legendaries around here. I will have a sane, rational discussion with him, because that's what I'm here for. But I will NOT stand for my arguments being used in a petty personal assault. You want to fight with him? Go ahead. But don't quote me like we're somehow of the same mind in all this.

  • 05.18.2012 8:36 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: S_034
You can apply the same logic to Noble team. At no point in Halo 2 or 3 is Thel 'Vadam actually fleshed out as a character. Things happen to and around him, but at no point do we actually discover a real, internal change has occurred. We don't find out why he fights. We don't learn how all of this affects him emotionally. Is he conflicted about fighting with Humans? About fighting AGAINST them before that? What's his mind when he's fighting the Heretics? Apart from the whole "angry about betrayal and murder" thing, we don't even know how he feels about the Brutes. At all. Is he pissed they're in the Covenant? Does he recognize the importance of their sheer brute (no pun intended) force in the present military contest? We NEVER find out.


Could one not argue that the events happening around the character are what defines the emotional and internal change of the character? After all, is our personality not a product defined by our experiences? Look at the Chief, in the games the primary method of defining his character is done through the situations he encounters and how he deals with it - the same can be said of Thel, and as Halo 2 progresses we certainly do see an internal change with his character.

After meeting with the Gravemind, the Arbiter's sense of purpose becomes one with John's - he's learned that the Great Journey is a lie after ardently asserting to John even while in the clutches of the Gravemind that it's real but as events unfold following the Great Schism we see how he places his faith in humanity and they work together to bring down a common enemy.

As for why he fights, initially it's for the same reason every other Elite fights - honour, glory and to secure passage to the Great journey. This was his life and upon discovering that it was all a lie we see him go through a change of character. This is further reflected in Halo 3, at the start there's still feelings of animosity between John and Thel but by the end of the game when the Dawn is about to flee the crumbling Halo, the FIRST thing that John does upon reaching the Dawn is to check that Thel is okay. This kind of subtle silent 'relationship' speaks volumes in terms of the ways the character is developed, in this case dialogue and display of emotions aren't a primary objective here - it's conveyed beautifully through the simplest of ways.

As for fighting humanity, he asserts at the start of Halo 2 that he is eager to continue his campaign against them. However, it's significant to note that as Thel you don't kill a single human in the game, only Heretics and Flood. The former is important because it conveys the sense that the Covenant has all these internal divisions and that the Elites are living a lie, in contrast to humanity which is portrayed as being united. These factors taken into consideration and going back to the point about events defining a character, one can apply these to Thel throughout Halo 2 as it can be seen to be what brings about his change of character from the Supreme Commander that burned Reach into cinders to a sympathetic figure who grows a bond with the human characters around him.

The same can be said of almost any character in the WHOLE freaking series. Other than the obvious, immediate motivating factors for their actions, only two characters EVER expound upon their motivations and machinations for behaving as they behave: The Gravemind and Mendicant Bias. They are the ONLY two characters who, by your own estimation, are REAL. Everyone else is a fulfillment of an archetype or a situational necessity, at best. Other than the whole "Aliens gon' kill my peeps!" thing, what's Chief's motivation? Does he even know his motivation? Johnson? Cortana? The Master Chief isn't a character, he's pure, tropey hero. Cortana's a witty sidekick in your ear constantly. For God's sake, even when she's been put through the ringer by the Gravemind we don't find out jack. What's in her head now that a hundred thousand year old monster's taken a crack at it? Do you know? I sure as hell don't. None of these characters are fleshed out, they've just had a lot of significant things happen to them. We don't know whether Thel even gives two -blam!-s about his public shaming ceremony, we just know that it seems tragic given the atmosphere. The Halo saga, every damn inch of it, is event driven, not character driven.

Name a single thing in the entire series that happened because John (THE MAIN CHARACTER IN THE SERIES!) made a meaningful, personal decision. Even when he rescues Cortana it's a matter of convenience and necessity. It's not like he commandeered a ship and went halfway across the galaxy to pluck her from the Gravemind's clutches. He needs her, and not (insofar as we're informed) in any meaningful or personal way. She's a tool, a talking wrench, and she knows too much for the Gravemind to be allowed to have her. If the Chief had been ordered not to get her, to let her be destroyed while he went off and did another important round of "blow -blam!- up," and he DEFIED orders to save her? THAT would be character development. It would show that he's not a pure, robotic soldier, but that he's somehow developed a real attachment to this pseudo-personality.


I think you may have misinterpreted my argument there, or were just going off on a tangent. I absolutely do not believe John to be a character of any deep emotional integrity in the games. He's a stone, and the only times his character comes close to any kind of significant development is with his partnership with Thel.

Jorge still reveres Halsey despite what was done to him as a child, and loves Reach enough to sacrifice his extremely valuable life for it.

This is the same of just about every Spartan-II though. She was seen as their surrogate-mother figure, there's absolutely nothing new there from something established a decade ago.

Jun is distant and defiant, a quirk unexpected in a multi-billion dollar super-soldier.

I never saw any evidence of this in the game. He never does anything in the game except asking whether it's wise to pick up some civilians, it's like he's just along for the ride. The game would honestly have made absolutely no difference if he wasn't in it.

Distant and defiant is pretty much what defines John, and you just argued that he's not a character of much worth emotionally atall - I do not see this argument working the opposite way for Jun.

Kat is a passive-aggressive -blam!- who sticks her nose where it doesn't belong; again, a weird quirk in a super-soldier.

Kat is the only Spartan in Noble Team I'd say had something interesting about her character. But her interaction with Six made no sense, surely they'd have known each other when they were training in Beta Company? Why wasn't this explored? Why couldn't they have made the 'implied relationship' between Kat and Carter be between Kat and Six? Or have a sort of triangle going on and there comes a point in the game where she's forced to choose between saving Six or Carter, there'd be a deep sense of emotional involvement if something like this was done. Alas, she just sticks to tech-talk.

And Emile is just straight up bat-blam!- crazy. More than a weird quirk; if he hadn't died on Reach, Emile would probably have ended up being bad news bears for somebody, and smart money's on that somebody being a human.

Like Jun, Emile could have been taken out of the game and there wouldn't be any difference made to [what can laughably be called] the story. He's just... there. The game would have benefited without him, there's like 1 scene where Emile appears condescending to Jorge and that's the full extent of his character. That's his 'moment' and then it's done.

The only way Noble team is a cookie-cutter group of characters is if you -blam!- up cookies so often that you think weird cookies are normal and normal cookies are a gift from God. They're not the most fleshed out characters in the series, to be sure, and they're certainly not the most fleshed out characters in the Universe. By literary standards, they're positively sterile. But they kick the ever-loving hell out of Mr. One-liner McGreenshirt and his partner Sir Splitface Shinyhat in terms of character development.

I've already explained my reasons for Sir Splitface Shinyhat, but with John I guess we can from an agreement there. But come Halo 4 with 343i's new policy on his character development, I'm sure we won't be saying this about him for long.

[Edited on 05.18.2012 3:53 PM PDT]

  • 05.18.2012 3:48 PM PDT

Why not stop by my File Share while you're here?

~Long Live Halo 2
Only regret is I didn't play more of it.

If you haven't noticed by now, I'm sort of a jerk.

Posted by: S2 Black 0ut
People are still defending Reach? lolwut

  • 05.18.2012 3:51 PM PDT

I think most people have so much trouble with reach, not just because it goes against the FoR novel, but because FoR was a great book to begin with. It was a fantastic expansion of the universe and story, and it wouldn't have been difficult to make a great Reach game within those confines.

But to counter your counters:

Spartan-IIIs in MJOLNIR
I'm fine with some IIIs getting the armor. The only issue is that the first few missions of Reach take place before a shielded Mjolnir Mk V is tested by the MC. And you can try and say that Noble had prototype versions but in the game, the standard armor is listed as Mk V[B], suggesting that it is the second iteration of the armor.

Orbital MAC stations
I can actually get behind this one. Space is a big place, it makes sense that you wouldn't be able to see them. However, you'd think that there would be one close to Anchor 9 as protection. Also, it would have been a great fan service to see them. But again, your explanation holds water.

Timeline
The fact that Reach fell in 1 day was a plot device to show the shear power of the covenant. It was a wake up call to the UNSC. And it was effective in showing that the humans were without a doubt losing the war. It made the war feel so much more desperate and meaningful.

Pillar of Autumn and Forerunner complex
Firstly, it has been common knowledge that UNSC cruisers are not rated for atmosphere. I get that it had outboard boosters for takeoff, but that doesn't explain how it landed. Secondly, Keyes had no intention of saving Red Team. They left the ship by their choice to try and give Reach more time. The Pillar stayed and fought until it was clear that the planet would fall. By that point, it would be impractical to try and save them. It was then decided that they would try and continue with RED FLAG. The only issue I had with the Forerunner complex on Reach wasn't that it was there.(The First Strike makes mention of Forerunner complexes under Reach) My issue was that from a linear story standpoint, it kind of took away from the discovery of Halo. The fact that Halo was the first measurable evidence of the Forerunners made it that much more mysterious.

anyway, that's my counter argument. Aside from canonical issues, I actually enjoyed the Reach campaign. The character development and the dynamics of Noble team were great. I for one didn't think it was BORING or DULL.

Oh and one more thing... "more clearer"?

  • 05.18.2012 6:54 PM PDT
  • gamertag: S034
  • user homepage:

Gettin' all Herodotean up in here!


Posted by: ajw34307
Could one not argue that the events happening around the character are what defines the emotional and internal change of the character? ... These factors taken into consideration and going back to the point about events defining a character, one can apply these to Thel throughout Halo 2 as it can be seen to be what brings about his change of character from the Supreme Commander that burned Reach into cinders to a sympathetic figure who grows a bond with the human characters around him.
Okay, bizarrely enough, you've almost got me convinced. But from a literary standpoint, it seems tough to say that the Arbiter is fully characterized, because there's nothing about the way he acts or the decisions he makes that are unique to him. Any rational being, given similar circumstances, would behave the same. If you were given the choice between being "hung by your entrails" and becoming the Arbiter, which would you choose? In the same vein, if you had been the Arbiter, and Tartarus hammered your ass down a hole after informing you that it was on the order of the Heirarchs, wouldn't you be open to side-switching? I feel like two minutes worth of cutscenes from the game would have me on your side in this, but as it stands I'm not convinced that Thel's zealotry is somehow a unique and defining aspect of his character. He seems like every other Elite in the pre-Schism Covenant, and you could drop any one of them into his shoes and they would behave essentially the same way.

You do make a good point about the relationship we see between him and John, but it's also something where I feel Halo 3 could have used a couple extra minutes of cutscene interaction between the two. For the most part, the time they spend together is entirely military in nature. They're hanging out when they're killing things. In the case of normal soldiers, yeah, you'd expect the development of close bonds. But the problem I have there is that we never actually see the relationship in development. At the beginning of Halo 3, John's about half a second from blowing Thel's brains out. At the end, they're all pals. But we never really see them drawing closer. I would've liked it a bit more if they'd actually showed them warming up to each other. As it stands, the relationship is just kinda there.

I think you may have misinterpreted my argument there, or were just going off on a tangent. I absolutely do not believe John to be a character of any deep emotional integrity in the games. He's a stone, and the only times his character comes close to any kind of significant development is with his partnership with Thel. Fair enough. Tangent it is.

This is the same of just about every Spartan-II though. She was seen as their surrogate-mother figure, there's absolutely nothing new there from something established a decade ago.
Alright, I'll give you that. But I feel like it's something that needs explained. The Spartans are all pretty smart, highly adaptive, and yet (almost) none of them recognize, or at least acknowledge, the darker side of what she did to them. It's bizarre and unsettling.

I never saw any evidence of this in the game. He never does anything in the game except asking whether it's wise to pick up some civilians, it's like he's just along for the ride. The game would honestly have made absolutely no difference if he wasn't in it.
You play through a whole level with Jun, going step for step with the guy, and 99% of his dialogue is directly related to what's happening in the Op. I think that's the definition of "distant." And in my mind, a super-soldier even having the thought to question orders speaks toward an internal tendency toward defiance. Although I'll go ahead and give you the fact that this is a stretch.

Distant and defiant is pretty much what defines John, and you just argued that he's not a character of much worth emotionally atall - I do not see this argument working the opposite way for Jun.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there's a large emotional breadth there. I'm just saying it's a quirk, and John has none of those. John's not distant. At no point does he shy away from interaction with anyone. And John's certainly not defiant. We never, ever get a sense that John even thinks for two seconds about what his orders are before he sets out to fulfill them, and he definitely never suggests that leaving a squad of troopers to die would be hunky-dory. John is the single most consummate soldier in the Halo Universe. We don't ever see anything to suggest that he even knows what defiance means.

Kat is the only Spartan in Noble Team I'd say had something interesting about her character. But her interaction with Six made no sense, surely they'd have known each other when they were training in Beta Company? Why wasn't this explored? Why couldn't they have made the 'implied relationship' between Kat and Carter be between Kat and Six? Or have a sort of triangle going on and there comes a point in the game where she's forced to choose between saving Six or Carter, there'd be a deep sense of emotional involvement if something like this was done. Alas, she just sticks to tech-talk. I'll agree with you on that one. An expansion on their possible dealings in the past, as well as the way those shared ties affected their dealings in the present, would have been fantastic. I'm guessing that the problem would have been that only people familiar with the lore in GoO and the bios of Noble team here on the website would have been able to understand. It's one of those casualties born of trying to make a mass-appeal game that ties in well with the deeper aspects of the story; you're rarely able to do justice to both.

Like Jun, Emile could have been taken out of the game and there wouldn't be any difference made to [what can laughably be called] the story. He's just... there. The game would have benefited without him, there's like 1 scene where Emile appears condescending to Jorge and that's the full extent of his character. That's his 'moment' and then it's done. Yeah, he didn't effect much real change, but I would call to mind the fact that he's NOT a main character. He's not there to be a Johnson to Six's John. He's more of a Sergeant Stacker. Most of Noble team fulfills the roles played by the marines in the original trilogy. The problem is that Bungie created them as Spartans, so we expect more of them. They're there for background noise, essentially, but because they're constantly present and obviously different, we expect more from them.
Additionally, Emile's character is the only one made entirely visible. The fact that he's got to have a bigger knife than everyone else, the fact that he ONLY carries a shotgun, the fact that he's got a big ol' skull carved into a massively expensive piece of armor...

Holy crap, I can't do it. You're right. There's freakin' nothing there. Guy's obviously crazy, but outside of that we can't say jack. The more I think about it, the less I can defend Jun, too. So you win those two.

I've already explained my reasons for Sir Splitface Shinyhat, but with John I guess we can from an agreement there. But come Halo 4 with 343i's new policy on his character development, I'm sure we won't be saying this about him for long.
One would hope. The problem is, I've never perceived John as having any real character qualities. Even in the novels, the most we really get are glimmers of understanding about the importance of life and the pain of sacrifice, and one dream sequence about his fear of powerlessness. The guy's almost a blank slate, and it's not easy to take such a sterile character and make him deep.

I'm intrigued as to how they'll do.

  • 05.19.2012 3:53 AM PDT

So ... It fixes the canon by going against ghosts of onyx and the fall of reach?

  • 05.20.2012 10:37 PM PDT

Haters are going to hate.
Praisers are going to praise.

The Bungie Forums are what keeps my mind sharp and my fingers active, between writing my own movie scripts, drawing, and studying industrial design. At the moment I'm working on miniatures for a short movie that I'll hopefully be able to film once I've saved up for a camera... That's me, with the mug, trying to have a conversation with Konoko.

Those reasons are absolutely proposterous and are far to based on assumption. But since I really don't have the energy to go through them one and one, all I'll do is add my voice to the choire of those who simply don't agree with whatever this thread is trying to say.

Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: Avatar Korra
The Pillar of Autumn can't go in atmosphere. If it does then it's stuck in atmosphere. Explain that.


The fact that the Pillar of Autumn has an emergency landing sequence proves that Halcyon Cruisers can be in atmosphere.
But as he said: then it's stuck. That's kind of what emergency implies, wouldn't you say?

And when it comes to the infamous boosters, all I'll say is: cheap.
Posted by: DonVinzone1
No, like I've said many times before: the Halsey Journal package makes perfectly clear that the game (Reach) is an attempt by ONI to recreate what happened to Noble Team.

In other words: what we played is not the real deal. We played an interpretation of the actual events based upon found footage from security cams, some recovered data, maybe eye witness reports.

And that explains the many collisions between the game and the events as they were (Fall of Reach, which really didn't go in as much detail on the ground ops as most people make the book out to do).

In other words: Reach and the Fall of Reach don't as much contradict each other, but supplement each other (Reach being more about the ground battle, and some elements we didn't know before as shown in the ONI Files. Fall of Reach covering the space battle) and in a lot of instances can exist next to each other with the knowledge that the game we've played might not be 100% accurate.

I really keep on being suprised how even the most hardcore fans seem to continue to read over that all important sentence in the letters coming with Halseys Journal. Because with that 1 little sentence, Bungie and Nylund made sure they'd have more freedom within the game and still have it fit canonically within the existing universe.

I'll buy that, although I'd still argue that it's kind of cheap, especially since it isn't the official premiss of the game.
Posted by: Sliding Ghost
Furthermore, Reach's first person cutscenes were completely immersion breaking. How can the cutscene Noble Six take so many shots in his last moments and fend off a Zealot in cqc while the player controlled Noble Six can't even handle several Elite minors? Very inconsistent.
Ha! Hilarious! I thought the exact same thing first time I saw it..
Posted by: SEAL Sniper 9
Posted by: ajw34307
I don't think anybody can say it better...

I shed a tear when I read those beautiful words defending Thel.
EDIT: spelling

[Edited on 05.20.2012 11:48 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2012 11:16 PM PDT

心の中に弱い風が吹いています。

I've come to accept the canon of Reach and how it propels the events of Halo 1-3.

  • 05.20.2012 11:51 PM PDT


Posted by: Simjon4two
Of course Reach didn't break the canon because the Fall of Reach isn't canon and never was canon like all the other books (maybe except Contact Harvest and The Flood).
If you're trying to troll you're not doing a very good job at it.

  • 05.21.2012 12:47 AM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: Thugzz Deluxxxe

Spartan-IIIs in MJOLNIR
I'm fine with some IIIs getting the armor. The only issue is that the first few missions of Reach take place before a shielded Mjolnir Mk V is tested by the MC. And you can try and say that Noble had prototype versions but in the game, the standard armor is listed as Mk V[B], suggesting that it is the second iteration of the armor.


Bungie already stated that the majority of the Spartan II's and Noble Team got the Mark V armor as far as November 2551, some Spartans (like John) were on active deployment at that time, that's why they didn't get it at that date (not to mention that the test was for the second generation of the armor whom had the AI/Piggy Ride function, only that).

Orbital MAC stations
I can actually get behind this one. Space is a big place, it makes sense that you wouldn't be able to see them. However, you'd think that there would be one close to Anchor 9 as protection. Also, it would have been a great fan service to see them. But again, your explanation holds water.


Having an Orbital Station next to Anchor station would defeat the purpose of the mission and of the game, as then the rest of the fleet would be alerted of the Covenant invasion (which was conveniently kept under wraps by ONI so that they could draw a Covenant ship to Reach and steal it for Operation: RED FLAG). They had kept the majority (and by majority I mean a good 90-95%) of the Reach Defense Fleet at the other side of the planet, saying that the Visegrad relay was down due to some issues.

Timeline
The fact that Reach fell in 1 day was a plot device to show the shear power of the covenant. It was a wake up call to the UNSC. And it was effective in showing that the humans were without a doubt losing the war. It made the war feel so much more desperate and meaningful.


Again, the invasion was sort of staged by ONI to capture a Covenant ship, the actual fall of reach still happened.

Pillar of Autumn and Forerunner complex
Firstly, it has been common knowledge that UNSC cruisers are not rated for atmosphere. I get that it had outboard boosters for takeoff, but that doesn't explain how it landed. Secondly, Keyes had no intention of saving Red Team. They left the ship by their choice to try and give Reach more time. The Pillar stayed and fought until it was clear that the planet would fall. By that point, it would be impractical to try and save them. It was then decided that they would try and continue with RED FLAG. The only issue I had with the Forerunner complex on Reach wasn't that it was there.(The First Strike makes mention of Forerunner complexes under Reach) My issue was that from a linear story standpoint, it kind of took away from the discovery of Halo. The fact that Halo was the first measurable evidence of the Forerunners made it that much more mysterious.


I'll give you the bit about the PoA (even though what they did to leave the planet could have been used to land too in my opinion). But, I find the forerunner complex part to be better, since they needed something to translate the coordinates, I mean, it's not like they can just know about them, right?

  • 05.21.2012 5:53 AM PDT

Meh, the "Reach falling in one day" I can't back because... It means the UNSC stronghold was lead by idiots. I mean, I've said this before long ago...

The book version has them mobilize, and ready for space combat. Minefields, nukes, ALL the platforms in formation on ONE side of the planet (Note, ONE side, aka, not all around the planet), every ship possible.

But the ground? It sounds like somebody looked out of their window at the planetary armory/command center and noticed Covenant tanks plowing through the flowerbed. (Though the armory they mention could just be the one tied to the UNSC command area.) They don't deploy air support. Their infantry/tanks are mobilized. Anti-air seems to be not even around. The orbital MAC generators didn't even HAVE bunkers built fully at them.


Posted by: Sliding Ghost
Furthermore, Reach's first person cutscenes were completely immersion breaking. How can the cutscene Noble Six take so many shots in his last moments and fend off a Zealot in cqc while the player controlled Noble Six can't even handle several Elite minors? Very inconsistent.


wait, you are seriously taking gameplay into this? Cause otherwise I'm not understanding what you mean by that. Besides, it's all about who is playing with gameplay. Some people can fend off several minors with ease, others would have difficulty.

[Edited on 05.21.2012 8:22 AM PDT]

  • 05.21.2012 8:17 AM PDT

I think you may have misinterpreted my argument there, or were just going off on a tangent. I absolutely do not believe John to be a character of any deep emotional integrity in the games. He's a stone, and the only times his character comes close to any kind of significant development is with his partnership with Thel.

And you think that's better story telling than Reach?

This is the same of just about every Spartan-II though. She was seen as their surrogate-mother figure, there's absolutely nothing new there from something established a decade ago.

You are forgetting Naomi-010 and Serin Osman, who participated in the arrest and incarceration of Dr. Halsey.

I never saw any evidence of this in the game. He never does anything in the game except asking whether it's wise to pick up some civilians, it's like he's just along for the ride. The game would honestly have made absolutely no difference if he wasn't in it.

He participates in the recon mission to relay Covenant troop developments to Sword Base. He also escorts Halsey to Castle Base and is the sole reason she is still alive. It is blood-curdling the degree of which you belittle Noble Team. Its like your almost in denial.

Kat is the only Spartan in Noble Team I'd say had something interesting about her character. But her interaction with Six made no sense, surely they'd have known each other when they were training in Beta Company? Why wasn't this explored? Why couldn't they have made the 'implied relationship' between Kat and Carter be between Kat and Six? Or have a sort of triangle going on and there comes a point in the game where she's forced to choose between saving Six or Carter, there'd be a deep sense of emotional involvement if something like this was done. Alas, she just sticks to tech-talk.

They're Spartans, they're trained for years to put the mission and defending humanity prior to their own personal feelings. You see this in John-117, Carter-259, and most of all, Noble Six. This is war, not high-school.

Like Jun, Emile could have been taken out of the game and there wouldn't be any difference made to [what can laughably be called] the story. He's just... there. The game would have benefited without him, there's like 1 scene where Emile appears condescending to Jorge and that's the full extent of his character. That's his 'moment' and then it's done.

Emile: *Fires MAC Gun* That one's for Jorge!
Emile: *Fires MAC Gun* That one's for Carter!
Emile: *Kills Zealot. Is impaled by Energy Sword.* I'm ready! How about you!?

Emile is easily the most badass (and most psychotic) SPARTAN of Noble Team. He is characterized by his brash offensiveness and aggression. Arguably one of the more developed characters of the Halo lore, even if I didn't particularly care for him much.


  • 05.21.2012 11:22 AM PDT

  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • of 4